The Discussion

[2018-07-29 19:24:03] <Styles> hey folks, was there a spell doc in the banner at one point?
[2018-07-29 19:24:18] <Tha|Hurricane> No.
[2018-07-29 19:24:19] <Nick> nope, the spell doc is GM only
[2018-07-29 19:24:46] <Nick> to minimize metagaming
[2018-07-29 19:24:55] <Tha|Hurricane> I feel like we're getting to the point where there isn't much of a point to that.
[2018-07-29 19:25:00] <Styles> can i get a look at it? im prepping for a game in september
[2018-07-29 19:25:27] <Nick> you'd have to ask shade
[2018-07-29 19:25:46] <Nick> there are plenty of players who aren't GMs still Thal
[2018-07-29 19:26:26] <Tha|Hurricane> Yeah, but in our current environment, it's almost a minority.
[2018-07-29 19:29:16] <Teruzi> s'nawt
[2018-07-29 19:29:19] <Teruzi> and you know what
[2018-07-29 19:29:27] <Teruzi> that sounds the kind of thing a metagamer would say!
[2018-07-29 19:29:32] <Teruzi> Burn the witch!
[2018-07-29 19:29:37] <Teruzi> She'll find it flattering.
[2018-07-29 19:29:47] <Nick> I'll burn Thal
[2018-07-29 19:29:48] <Shadewalker> Thal is one of the most active people on here who hasn't seen the doc.
[2018-07-29 19:30:25] <Tha|Hurricane> Teruzi, count 'em. People in games vs GMs.
[2018-07-29 19:30:36] <Teruzi> Sorry Thal
[2018-07-29 19:30:42] <Teruzi> I can't hear you over the sound of these roaring flames.
[2018-07-29 19:30:50] <Teruzi> Also I think there's about 10 GMs?
[2018-07-29 19:30:52] * Teruzi was kicked by Tha|Hurricane (burn midget)
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[2018-07-29 19:31:02] <Teruzi> wait!
[2018-07-29 19:31:02] <Nick> mod abuse
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[2018-07-29 19:31:07] <Teruzi> I was gonna bring up a point!
[2018-07-29 19:31:11] <Teruzi> Oh there we go
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[2018-07-29 19:31:24] <Teruzi> yeah we got around 29 people in channel so
[2018-07-29 19:31:25] <Teruzi> yea
[2018-07-29 19:31:27] <Teruzi> minority
[2018-07-29 19:31:38] <Tha|Hurricane> Not all of those are in games.
[2018-07-29 19:31:47] <Nick> they potentially are
[2018-07-29 19:31:48] <Bel> It's somewhat equal
[2018-07-29 19:32:06] <Bel> I don't see much harm in sharing the spell list, except that people will treat it like a bible
[2018-07-29 19:32:10] <Bel> and I will be sad
[2018-07-29 19:32:12] <Nick> yeah
[2018-07-29 19:32:20] <Bel> But I'm sad a lot
[2018-07-29 19:32:30] <Tha|Hurricane> You don't know what being sad a lot is, Bel.
[2018-07-29 19:32:38] <Nick> we need bigger disclaimers on the doc even though there's already disclaimers
[2018-07-29 19:32:47] — Bel hugs
[2018-07-29 19:33:02] <Nick> maybe we should make a spell-making guide
[2018-07-29 19:33:03] <Bel> I'd be happy with a doc that was nothing but disclaimers
[2018-07-29 19:33:13] <Nick> basically what I was thinking bel
[2018-07-29 19:33:17] <TheWhiteDuke> Spell-making guide sounds good :P
[2018-07-29 19:33:36] — Nick starts working on it
[2018-07-29 19:33:45] <Bel> Nice
[2018-07-29 19:34:15] <Tha|Hurricane> ...so, just because I'm curious, who is in this room and is not/hasn't been in a game?
[2018-07-29 19:35:05] <Nick> from the top, bow, bj, chron, ech, ix, maha, mall, mish, non, side, spell, sty
[2018-07-29 19:35:16] <Teruzi> why do you keep so much track
[2018-07-29 19:35:18] <TheWhiteDuke> I’m yet to /play/ in a game. Exclusively run them.
[2018-07-29 19:35:18] <Chrono> o/
[2018-07-29 19:35:28] <Tha|Hurricane> And the two bots.
[2018-07-29 19:35:35] <Nick> right
[2018-07-29 19:35:51] <Mallmann> I haven't finished pact yet tho
[2018-07-29 19:36:00] <Nick> that's a good reason
[2018-07-29 19:36:09] <Chrono> I haven't even looked into the doc yet :t
[2018-07-29 19:36:11] <Nick> maybe stay out of the channel if you're avoiding spoilers?
[2018-07-29 19:36:11] <Tha|Hurricane> So in a room of 29 people, we have 14 people who have never been in a game.
[2018-07-29 19:36:23] <Styles> io would luv luv luv
[2018-07-29 19:36:25] <Styles> to be in a game
[2018-07-29 19:36:26] <Nick> I could be wrong with my list tbh
[2018-07-29 19:36:34] <Nick> but it's probablyclose
[2018-07-29 19:36:47] <Tha|Hurricane> And how many GMs do we have in the room? :P
[2018-07-29 19:37:05] <Teruzi> not enough, player!
[2018-07-29 19:37:09] <Bel> About six, yeah?
[2018-07-29 19:37:13] <Teruzi> It's not up to -players- to decide, I feel.
[2018-07-29 19:37:33] <Chrono> I technically played one session with Bel? Back before there was a codified doc
[2018-07-29 19:37:39] <Tha|Hurricane> I just feel like you're being contrary because you like to do that, Tuzi.
[2018-07-29 19:37:43] <Nick> Oh, also JL
[2018-07-29 19:37:46] <Nick> never played
[2018-07-29 19:37:47] <Teruzi> You're entirely right!
[2018-07-29 19:37:49] <Bel> Technically.
[2018-07-29 19:37:52] <Teruzi> But also completely wrong.
[2018-07-29 19:38:01] <Teruzi> I like being contrarian because I like to annoy you.
[2018-07-29 19:38:09] <Teruzi> I like to think I'm getting better at it over the years
[2018-07-29 19:38:16] <Teruzi> Ya lovely person
[2018-07-29 19:38:27] <Bel> rude
[2018-07-29 19:38:34] <Tha|Hurricane> Mallmann, weren't you supposed to take him?
[2018-07-29 19:38:40] <Teruzi> He did, actually.
[2018-07-29 19:39:06] <Teruzi> Personally, I feel that magic is supposed to be cool and fancy and hard to get if you're not into it
[2018-07-29 19:39:18] <Teruzi> and having the spell list thrown at you at all times is gonna consume some mystery
[2018-07-29 19:39:20] <Teruzi> and I boo that.
[2018-07-29 19:39:21] <Mallmann> I'm bad at my job
[2018-07-29 19:39:23] <Teruzi> I boo that real hard.
[2018-07-29 19:39:30] <Teruzi> Nah, Mall, you got me good.
[2018-07-29 19:41:15] — Bel applauds
[2018-07-29 19:41:18] — Bel wipes a tear
[2018-07-29 19:41:22] <Bel> now kith
[2018-07-29 19:42:03] <Teruzi> PD, Bel
[2018-07-29 19:42:09] <Tha|Hurricane> But really, as incestuous as our community is, I feel that keeping the spell list secret is going to exclude a smaller and smaller group.
[2018-07-29 19:42:09] <Teruzi> focus
[2018-07-29 19:42:20] <Teruzi> what group is that?
[2018-07-29 19:42:23] <Bel> no can do
[2018-07-29 19:42:44] <Bel> Honestly, sharing the spell list is fine, I guess.
[2018-07-29 19:42:59] <Bel> I can resign myself to answering ever more questions about "can I do x"
[2018-07-29 19:42:59] <Tha|Hurricane> Teruzi, pretty much just me, tbqh
[2018-07-29 19:43:15] <Bel> With "yes and also it depends"
[2018-07-29 19:43:16] <Teruzi> hun, aren't you used to being the bullied minority
[2018-07-29 19:43:23] <Bel> Let her be
[2018-07-29 19:43:26] <Tha|Hurricane> No, that's why I stay in the closet.
[2018-07-29 19:43:29] <Teruzi> damn
[2018-07-29 19:43:32] <Teruzi> check mate.
[2018-07-29 19:43:37] <Tha|Hurricane> Boom, suck it.
[2018-07-29 19:43:41] <Teruzi> Yeah, I guess that people can choose -not- to read the list
[2018-07-29 19:43:42] <Teruzi> just
[2018-07-29 19:43:43] <Teruzi> ugh
[2018-07-29 19:43:47] <Bel> I will not.
[2018-07-29 19:43:47] <Teruzi> metagaming is so lame
[2018-07-29 19:44:15] <Tha|Hurricane> I figured that you of all people, Teruzi, would be into tearing down the elites.
[2018-07-29 19:44:29] <Teruzi> Only when I'm not 'em.
[2018-07-29 19:44:30] <Shadewalker> My stance on this is pretty obvious, but I'll follow whatever the channel wants to do.
[2018-07-29 19:44:32] <Teruzi> Duh.
[2018-07-29 19:44:41] <Tha|Hurricane> Shadewalker, so, why?
[2018-07-29 19:44:41] <Teruzi> Oh hey, Shade
[2018-07-29 19:44:50] <Tha|Hurricane> We're having a friendly debate
[2018-07-29 19:44:57] <Teruzi> You got more interesting input than us groveling masses.
[2018-07-29 19:45:06] <Bel> (I'm against sharing, for the record, because I would be happiest if it didn't exist)
[2018-07-29 19:45:19] <Bel> (but I'm basically an RP terrorist in that regard)
[2018-07-29 19:45:30] <Shadewalker> There's an element of Pandora's box, once it's out, it can't go back to being kept between GMs.
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[2018-07-29 19:45:50] <Bel> What good does showing it to players do?
[2018-07-29 19:45:53] <Teruzi> True that.
[2018-07-29 19:45:55] <Teruzi> Oh! I know!
[2018-07-29 19:46:05] <Teruzi> Thal can GM a game and become privy to the list.
[2018-07-29 19:46:10] <Teruzi> Her... appetites will be sated.
[2018-07-29 19:46:19] <Bel> What a coincidence
[2018-07-29 19:46:25] <Bel> She even has a game mostly ready to go already
[2018-07-29 19:46:31] <Teruzi> Fancy that
[2018-07-29 19:47:06] <Bel> So just lemme know when the draft is, Thal, and I'll be good to go :p
[2018-07-29 19:47:25] <Nick> cocky
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[2018-07-29 19:48:22] <Bel> As if she wouldn't take me
[2018-07-29 19:48:25] <Bel> I'm clearly the best.
[2018-07-29 19:48:28] <Bel> Right?
[2018-07-29 19:48:48] <Tha|Hurricane> My point is that a large group of our community already has the list, Shade. If you're worried about people abusing the knowledge from the list, you can at least give us even ground. Since no matter my practice, any of my GMs would know what spells I have. :P
[2018-07-29 19:48:48] <Nick> maybe like the third best
[2018-07-29 19:49:04] <Nick> thal, assuming they've read the doc all the way through
[2018-07-29 19:49:05] <Bel> Third best!
[2018-07-29 19:49:10] <Bel> I'll take it.
[2018-07-29 19:49:25] <Nick> I've only read the sections that match the practices of my players
[2018-07-29 19:49:27] <Tha|Hurricane> Or they can look because they feel like knowing what I can do. Information asymmetry is a huge deal.
[2018-07-29 19:49:44] <Nick> yeah, I mean, it's not great
[2018-07-29 19:49:46] <Shadewalker> And on one hand, while some people can use it as inspiration to make spells, just as many are going to read them and go "Oh, this is how x spells work". The whole reason I started the doc was to collect the extremely varied and diverse ideas for spells into one collaborative space. I don't want people to be constrained by it. For instance, I helped make some Auger spells that were dramatically different from the ones on the doc, but they
[2018-07-29 19:49:46] <Shadewalker> fit the character much better.
[2018-07-29 19:50:21] <Shadewalker> Also, I have yet to read what is on the doc for Ogre, Finder, Elementalism.
[2018-07-29 19:50:22] <Bel> Y'know, to be fair
[2018-07-29 19:50:34] <Bel> The number of people who would think "this is how x spell works"
[2018-07-29 19:50:49] <Bel> Is likely also the number of people who will not be GMs.
[2018-07-29 19:51:06] <Tha|Hurricane> Bel, or the people who wouldn't come up with anything good without a list anyway.
[2018-07-29 19:51:10] <Bel> Mhm
[2018-07-29 19:51:25] <Bel> I've flopped again!
[2018-07-29 19:51:29] <Bel> Release the list!
[2018-07-29 19:51:34] <Bel> It will only hurt the weak!
[2018-07-29 19:52:07] <Shadewalker> But that was me when I first joined. Hell, looking back at some of my WD gens and what I did with tinkers is kind of embarrassing. I was just going straight from the doc because I thought it was the end all be all.
[2018-07-29 19:52:32] <Shadewalker> I learned, but it took me a while to get there.
[2018-07-29 19:53:06] <Nick> not to criticize and real or potential GMs but being a GM and understanding the setting are not the same thing at all
[2018-07-29 19:53:24] <Nick> any*
[2018-07-29 19:53:43] <Thepicheese> I still haven't decided what I'd prefer but one point for releasing the doc is it can give people a better idea of the sorts of things a practice would be able to do.
[2018-07-29 19:54:00] <Nick> that's a downside imo
[2018-07-29 19:54:05] <Bel> ^
[2018-07-29 19:54:15] <Nick> because a practice can do lots and lots of stuff that isn't on the doc
[2018-07-29 19:54:32] <Shadewalker> They can talk to the room or to individuals for that. Most of us are glad to help with that kind of stuff.
[2018-07-29 19:54:52] <Bel> I could write a disclaimer?
[2018-07-29 19:54:57] <Bel> I can write a helluva disclaimer.
[2018-07-29 19:55:47] <Tha|Hurricane> "The information posted here is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
[2018-07-29 19:56:23] <Bel> "Any character generated with any spell taken wholesale from this list is a bad character and you're a bad GM and also no."
[2018-07-29 19:57:10] <Tha|Hurricane> Bel, also that game is never getting run
[2018-07-29 19:57:24] <Bel> I will hold the torch, no worries
[2018-07-29 19:57:29] <Bel> My arm isn't tired
[2018-07-29 19:57:53] <Tha|Hurricane> No one needs archaeological island adventures.
[2018-07-29 19:57:56] <Teruzi> Gallant, but foolish.
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[2018-07-29 19:58:19] <Bel> But I understand Thal's complaint, and while I think people simply shouldn't metagame in this story-based, incredibly RP-heavy culture because what's the point
[2018-07-29 19:58:48] <Bel> The chance that it somewhat inspires a player to become a GM is worth it.
[2018-07-29 19:59:02] <Bel> Also, it'll give me something else to make fun of people for.
[2018-07-29 20:00:57] <Teruzi> Hrm.
[2018-07-29 20:01:14] <Teruzi> It think that if you want to run a game you'll have a setting and ideas without needing the doc.
[2018-07-29 20:01:19] <Teruzi> It will constraint and codify.
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[2018-07-29 20:02:00] <Bel> It will.
[2018-07-29 20:02:22] <Bel> I guess I should abstain. I wouldn't ever look at it under any circumstances anyways, it's no skin off my neb.
[2018-07-29 20:02:38] <Chrono> Could we stake a middle ground? Show off an example spell from each practice?
[2018-07-29 20:02:50] <Thepicheese> One downside I've thought about that's a bit difficult to explain is that with a public doc, less experienced players might start just using the names of spells rather than actually role-playing the actions to cast them. With it being private, they'd have to actually play it out since spectators might not know what a spell with the name 'Astral Shift' does.
[2018-07-29 20:02:51] <Tha|Hurricane> No middle ground!
[2018-07-29 20:03:08] <Bel> oh man
[2018-07-29 20:03:12] <Bel> TPC, you're right
[2018-07-29 20:03:16] <Bel> I'm agin it again
[2018-07-29 20:03:34] <Tha|Hurricane> ...I don't even know the actions to cast any of my spells.
[2018-07-29 20:03:52] <Bel> I've always just done impossible things and that was magic
[2018-07-29 20:04:00] <Tha|Hurricane> Since you don't have rules as a fae.
[2018-07-29 20:04:11] <Bel> It's so good.
[2018-07-29 20:04:17] <Bel> Thanks again, Cam, I don't thank you enough
[2018-07-29 20:04:21] <Tha|Hurricane> I have to use the name since anything else is vague and the GM has to know what I'm doing.
[2018-07-29 20:04:30] <Tha|Hurricane> And the GM describes the result, so does it really change anything?
[2018-07-29 20:05:15] <Shadewalker> Also, not to shoot you down Chrono, but that would make the railroading problem even worse.
[2018-07-29 20:05:30] <Teruzi> yee
[2018-07-29 20:05:33] <Teruzi> Also, dunno
[2018-07-29 20:05:34] <Chrono> Shoot me down; I don't even play this game yet.
[2018-07-29 20:05:36] <Nick> I always describe what I'm doing IC, no spell name, and then if I think it's not clear enough, I PM the GM with the name from my list.
[2018-07-29 20:05:46] <Teruzi> Duke would know better, but I feel like I didn't have to use -no- name spells to apply some magic around.
[2018-07-29 20:05:54] <Teruzi> And yeah
[2018-07-29 20:05:57] <Teruzi> basically what Nick said
[2018-07-29 20:06:07] <Teruzi> he has more experience than me, that sempai
[2018-07-29 20:06:18] <Nick> sometimes the spell name is the best way to describe what you're doing though and that's fine
[2018-07-29 20:06:26] <Nick> so long as it makes sense
[2018-07-29 20:06:45] <Thepicheese> It's something that would probably plague newer players but I see it as the difference of someone saying "Will casts Ichorous Weapon for their revolver." vs. "Will cuts into his skin with his knife, summoning a bloody revolver."
[2018-07-29 20:07:25] <Shadewalker> Depends heavily on the practice and the spell itself, for Miranda, all of her spells are very clearly defined, codified things, so I can just say, "I'm casting this spell," but it's not so clean cut for other characters.
[2018-07-29 20:07:47] <Thepicheese> Using spell names is fine, but having a public doc shouldn't be a crutch for people too lazy to find a way to insert the name in a way that makes sense for spectators.
[2018-07-29 20:08:02] <Nick> anyway this is all good stuff, keep discussing
[2018-07-29 20:08:19] — Shadewalker hands Nick some popcorn.
[2018-07-29 20:08:21] <Nick> I'm working on the spell creation guide
[2018-07-29 20:09:01] <Nick> I've got a five paragraph disclaimer for an introduction
[2018-07-29 20:09:04] <Teruzi> I... think it's lazy RPing if you just go "I cast fireball", personally.
[2018-07-29 20:09:05] <Teruzi> >_>
[2018-07-29 20:09:21] <Teruzi> Even if the spell is set in stone, there's always more pleasing things to read than "I cast fireball"
[2018-07-29 20:09:36] <Tha|Hurricane> It really depends on the spell/practice.
[2018-07-29 20:09:38] <Teruzi> And I selfishly want to keep reading interesting sessions.
[2018-07-29 20:09:46] <Teruzi> I think you can fluff up anything
[2018-07-29 20:09:51] <Teruzi> gimme a practice! A spell!
[2018-07-29 20:09:55] <Teruzi> I'll doll it up -so hard-
[2018-07-29 20:10:06] <Tha|Hurricane> Fine, the eye spell for Onis
[2018-07-29 20:10:30] <Teruzi> who's Onis
[2018-07-29 20:10:34] <Thepicheese> There definitely are some spells where saying something like that would be fine, but it would be too easy for people to just say the name of the spell and rely on spectators looking up what it actually does in the spell doc.
[2018-07-29 20:10:49] <Tha|Hurricane> Plural of Oni, Tuzi
[2018-07-29 20:10:59] <Teruzi> Oh.
[2018-07-29 20:11:04] <Tha|Hurricane> ...I don't think anyone here would do that, Thepicheese
[2018-07-29 20:11:04] <Teruzi> There's more than one?
[2018-07-29 20:11:06] <Teruzi> That's nuts
[2018-07-29 20:11:13] <Teruzi> they would be stronger if they could just get rid of the others
[2018-07-29 20:11:22] <Teruzi> they would grow exponentially strong actually
[2018-07-29 20:11:29] <Tha|Hurricane> Inverse ninja law, yes yes
[2018-07-29 20:11:31] <Thepicheese> Maybe not anyone  here now but new people joining /is/ a thing.
[2018-07-29 20:11:55] <Tha|Hurricane> Yeah and when new people have been troublesome in WD, we tell them the issue and help them work on it.
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[2018-07-29 20:13:23] <Thepicheese> I guess many of the downsides of releasing the doc could be solved by occasionally butting in and telling people to be more creative.
[2018-07-29 20:13:47] <Tha|Hurricane> Wow, talking to people.
[2018-07-29 20:13:51] <Shadewalker> And not metagame.
[2018-07-29 20:13:59] <Teruzi> "There is a price to be paid for power. There always is. And this one is not afraid of paying. This one's eyes are set on the target. It knows what it must do. From the dawn of time to now. This one's magic is the strongest when it is unexpected."
[2018-07-29 20:14:05] <Tha|Hurricane> I'm a big fan of MAD for metagaming.
[2018-07-29 20:14:14] <Teruzi> "One time. Two times. Three times. Four times. Five times."
[2018-07-29 20:14:21] <Teruzi> "This one declares it so."
[2018-07-29 20:14:45] <Thepicheese> Upside to releasing the doc: more brains with access to the doc in order to put in cool spells they come up with.
[2018-07-29 20:14:56] <Tha|Hurricane> Metagaming MAD.
[2018-07-29 20:15:10] <Teruzi> "The enemy is known. It is heard. It's smelled. It has been tasted. It will be bored down with the eyes."
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[2018-07-29 20:15:31] <Tha|Hurricane> Did you read what it did, Tuzi?
[2018-07-29 20:15:35] <Teruzi> "The stone eye, that heavy weight."
[2018-07-29 20:15:36] <Shadewalker> Also, GMs afraid of their players metagaming would hesitate to contribute to the doc, causing it to stagnate and make the doc worse overall.
[2018-07-29 20:15:40] <Teruzi> (I did!)
[2018-07-29 20:16:09] <Teruzi> "This one's knows the enemy. One time. Two times. Three times. Four times. Five times."
[2018-07-29 20:16:44] <Teruzi> "The fang will find way, guided by the eye. The weight settles. Space bends around it."
[2018-07-29 20:17:54] <Teruzi> 'This one will draw blood, being of glamour and impracticality. The eye sees it so. Not once, not twice, not thrice. Five times blood will be drawn.'
[2018-07-29 20:17:59] <Teruzi> That's shitty, I know
[2018-07-29 20:18:01] <Teruzi> but compare to like
[2018-07-29 20:18:20] <Tha|Hurricane> I mean, the metagaming fear is kind of pointless. Because right now, it's just not everyone that can metagame. And GMs aren't immune to it.
[2018-07-29 20:18:29] <Teruzi> "The practitioner uses Oni's eyes to empower their fang, with the round set to five"
[2018-07-29 20:19:08] <Bel> To be fair!
[2018-07-29 20:19:22] <Bel> I don't want to know about the doc because of the WD individual powers problem.
[2018-07-29 20:19:40] <Thepicheese> What's that?
[2018-07-29 20:19:44] <Bel> If I make a cool thing, I don't want to be burdened by the "it's too close to X that already exists" thing.
[2018-07-29 20:19:52] <Thepicheese> Ah
[2018-07-29 20:19:54] <Bel> It's cool, let it ride.
[2018-07-29 20:20:00] <Tha|Hurricane> Bel, there is already a lot of crossover on the spell lists.
[2018-07-29 20:24:25] <Camtist> Oy!
[2018-07-29 20:24:47] <Camtist> Just got off the flight and found out this discussion has been happening
[2018-07-29 20:24:54] <Camtist> Don’t release the spell list
[2018-07-29 20:25:16] — Shadewalker pauses with his finger over the share button.
[2018-07-29 20:25:22] <Tha|Hurricane> Why?
[2018-07-29 20:25:29] <Camtist> If y’all want it, y’all gotta fucking earn it
[2018-07-29 20:25:46] <Tha|Hurricane> The elitism is making my point for me.
[2018-07-29 20:25:55] <Camtist> (I’m a little testy from a 2 hour heavily delayed flight, sorry)
[2018-07-29 20:26:14] <Tha|Hurricane> When the revolution comes, you will not be spared.
[2018-07-29 20:26:23] <Nick> congrats on your safe landing
[2018-07-29 20:26:32] <Camtist> But I want it to incentivize at least running a oneshot or something
[2018-07-29 20:26:46] <Tha|Hurricane> "Here, run a oneshot so you can metagame."
[2018-07-29 20:26:55] <Teruzi> Yeah, but see Thal
[2018-07-29 20:27:00] <Teruzi> who is even gonna actually go for it?
[2018-07-29 20:27:05] <Nick> if the goal is to metagame you've already lost
[2018-07-29 20:27:07] <Teruzi> Will you?
[2018-07-29 20:27:10] <Camtist> Plus, if y’all really want a spell list, then I can just make one separately
[2018-07-29 20:27:13] <Nick> at least you get a oneshot out of it
[2018-07-29 20:27:34] <Tha|Hurricane> The fear of metagaming seems to be the primary argument for not releasing it.
[2018-07-29 20:27:43] <Tha|Hurricane> Teruzi, what are you even talking about?
[2018-07-29 20:28:01] <Nick> he's trying to bait you into running a oneshot I think
[2018-07-29 20:28:07] <Teruzi> yee
[2018-07-29 20:28:15] <Tha|Hurricane> Well, he can go sit on a cucumber.
[2018-07-29 20:28:19] <Teruzi> Bitch!
[2018-07-29 20:28:20] <Teruzi> I might!
[2018-07-29 20:28:23] <Teruzi> Run me, dice witch
[2018-07-29 20:28:25] <Teruzi> show me your magic
[2018-07-29 20:28:31] <Teruzi> and they'll show you theirs.
[2018-07-29 20:28:39] <Camtist> Nah, I don’t really care about metagaming
[2018-07-29 20:28:42] <Tha|Hurricane> I gave up trying to run games.
[2018-07-29 20:28:52] <Teruzi> we can be like buddy cops!
[2018-07-29 20:28:58] <Teruzi> getting you out of retirement
[2018-07-29 20:28:59] <Camtist> But I do think it’s a) only really useful to GMs, and b) incentivizes becoming a GM
[2018-07-29 20:29:00] <Teruzi> for one last case
[2018-07-29 20:29:49] <Tha|Hurricane> How detailed are the Practice on that list?
[2018-07-29 20:30:00] <Shadewalker> Not at all.
[2018-07-29 20:30:02] <Teruzi> dripping on-
[2018-07-29 20:30:10] <Nick> depends on the practice though
[2018-07-29 20:30:11] <Teruzi> Not at all, actually. Bare bones sound like.
[2018-07-29 20:30:23] <Teruzi> Picked clean by ravens.
[2018-07-29 20:30:24] <Nick> some of them have multiple versions of spells I think
[2018-07-29 20:30:29] <Nick> like Necromancer
[2018-07-29 20:30:37] <Nick> spell lists, rather
[2018-07-29 20:30:50] <Mishie> Metagaming is boring as dicks
[2018-07-29 20:30:53] <Thepicheese> Some have a whole bunch of spells, others have like 2
[2018-07-29 20:31:31] <Shadewalker> Like, nine practices have nothing, and I could go through and name about ten others that have very few spells.
[2018-07-29 20:32:24] <Camtist> Wait
[2018-07-29 20:32:34] <Camtist> Thal, what was your main argument for releasing it?
[2018-07-29 20:32:41] <Shadewalker> Also, there are ones like Astrology that technically has spells, but I would really like someone to take a fresh crack at them.
[2018-07-29 20:32:41] <Camtist> I’m sorry I’m really out of it right now
[2018-07-29 20:32:52] * soulpelt| → soulpelt|sleep
[2018-07-29 20:33:34] <Tha|Hurricane> Camtist, more that I feel that in our community there is barely a reason to keep it hidden since most of the players are also GMs.
[2018-07-29 20:34:09] <Mishie> realtalk
[2018-07-29 20:34:13] <Thepicheese> tbh that feels more like a rebuttal than a main argument.
[2018-07-29 20:34:26] <Mishie> I can only think of like, 1-2 people here who would abuse it for metagaming.
[2018-07-29 20:34:27] <Teruzi> okay well
[2018-07-29 20:34:35] <Teruzi> there's too many people agreeing with me now
[2018-07-29 20:34:39] <Teruzi> I agree with Thal now
[2018-07-29 20:34:42] <Camtist> Wow
[2018-07-29 20:34:50] <Tha|Hurricane> They always agreed with you.
[2018-07-29 20:34:58] <Teruzi> Yes but there's -too many-
[2018-07-29 20:34:59] <Tha|Hurricane> Now that Tuzi is on my side, I should switch sides.
[2018-07-29 20:35:10] <Teruzi> Leave it to me! I can be the spunky rebellion
[2018-07-29 20:35:12] <Mishie> Although it does seem like the actual argument for releasing them is "They could be fun to read through"
[2018-07-29 20:35:19] <Teruzi> And all of you will be my loving mementos.
[2018-07-29 20:35:30] <Tha|Hurricane> My argument for releasing them is there isn't really a reason to keep them hidden.
[2018-07-29 20:35:32] <Teruzi> Heads held high... on my wall
[2018-07-29 20:36:04] <Teruzi> Shouldn't knowledge be freely shared? So that possible GMs can plot and think and muse? Shouldn't we seek to inspire newbies into taking the mantle?
[2018-07-29 20:36:11] <Camtist> Hrm
[2018-07-29 20:36:23] <Camtist> Tbh, one of the problems with making the doc public
[2018-07-29 20:36:36] <Teruzi> Perhaps faint knowledge of the workings will make the daunting task of GMing more... approachable
[2018-07-29 20:36:43] <Camtist> Is that I will never add to it again, because I really don’t want the stuff I put on it to be public
[2018-07-29 20:36:54] <Tha|Hurricane> Camtist, then why do you add to it now?
[2018-07-29 20:37:04] <Teruzi> well that's just emotional ransom
[2018-07-29 20:37:13] <Chrono> content ransom
[2018-07-29 20:37:23] <Camtist> ...actually, I don’t
[2018-07-29 20:37:24] <Tha|Hurricane> It's becoming less and less public over time anyway.
[2018-07-29 20:37:39] <Camtist> I think I just put the base stuff on there. I haven’t updated it since
[2018-07-29 20:37:53] <Camtist> And if it’s public, then there’s no way in hell I ever will
[2018-07-29 20:38:14] <Teruzi> I don't think that statistic holds up, honestly. It's becoming more public because there's more GMs, but there's also more possible players. So you know.
[2018-07-29 20:38:22] <Teruzi> I think it's still the same distribution, give or take?
[2018-07-29 20:38:40] <Tha|Hurricane> Not really. As we said earlier, around 14 people in this room have never been in modern PD.
[2018-07-29 20:38:55] <Teruzi> I did say possible.
[2018-07-29 20:39:47] — Bel quietly hums 'Kumbaya"
[2018-07-29 20:40:13] <Camtist> ...alright, release it
[2018-07-29 20:40:28] <Bel> The Doc That Never Was
[2018-07-29 20:40:41] <Bel> I wish I had access so I could redact the whole thing
[2018-07-29 20:40:46] <Bel> good joke
[2018-07-29 20:40:51] <Tha|Hurricane> Only block Bel
[2018-07-29 20:41:00] <Camtist> It may die/stagnate, but it also may already be doing so
[2018-07-29 20:41:01] <Bel> You could!
[2018-07-29 20:41:12] <Bel> That would be doubly funny because I would never know
[2018-07-29 20:41:15] <Camtist> Either way, it doesn’t have any of my secrets on it, and it /never/ will
[2018-07-29 20:41:18] <Bel> As I will not be clicking that link.
[2018-07-29 20:41:21] — Bel pats Cam
[2018-07-29 20:41:24] ⇐ Mahasim quit (Mahasim@net-l59l5f.ca.comcast.net): Ping timeout: 181 seconds
[2018-07-29 20:41:59] <Mishie> Same
[2018-07-29 20:42:00] <Bel> And thus, The Age Of The Secret Spell Doc That Was Only Somewhat Secret came to an end.
[2018-07-29 20:42:06] — Bel plays amazing grace on kazoo
[2018-07-29 20:42:08] <Mishie> When I metagame, I metagame in secret
[2018-07-29 20:42:20] <Mishie> Usually by metametagaming
[2018-07-29 20:42:33] <Bel> true metagamers bribe their GM
[2018-07-29 20:42:59] <Camtist> I will say, though
[2018-07-29 20:43:15] <Camtist> That if it does get released
[2018-07-29 20:43:27] <Camtist> (Which I do not support, even though I’m not against it)
[2018-07-29 20:43:36] <Camtist> There should still be a heavy disclaimer to it
[2018-07-29 20:43:46] <Tha|Hurricane> We've already discussed the disclaimer.
[2018-07-29 20:43:51] <Camtist> Yup
[2018-07-29 20:43:54] <Bel> I've already volunteered to make fun of people who use it
[2018-07-29 20:44:00] <Camtist> And I am in heavy support of it
[2018-07-29 20:44:00] <Bel> Is that mod-approved?
[2018-07-29 20:44:06] <Bel> Can I call people dumb
[2018-07-29 20:44:19] <Bel> I was gonna anyway, but I'd like it to be sanctioned
[2018-07-29 20:44:27] <Thepicheese> I'd rather call them lazy since dumb people can still be creative.
[2018-07-29 20:44:28] <Camtist> No being mean
[2018-07-29 20:44:38] <Camtist> >:T
[2018-07-29 20:44:40] <Tha|Hurricane> Keep it to a six out of ten, Bel
[2018-07-29 20:44:45] <Bel> Only a six?
[2018-07-29 20:45:04] <Bel> Can I bargain you up to a seven, and I'll offer constructive criticism after?
[2018-07-29 20:45:07] <Tha|Hurricane> Complaining makes the scale worse.
[2018-07-29 20:45:15] <Camtist> That’s more my personal opinion, mostly opinion would have to get all technical and emotionally removed and bleh
[2018-07-29 20:45:18] <Tha|Hurricane> If it would make Daisy cry, you can't say it.
[2018-07-29 20:45:23] <Tha|Hurricane> (Good luck)
[2018-07-29 20:45:24] <Camtist> modly opinion*
[2018-07-29 20:45:26] <Bel> Daisy cries at a 1
[2018-07-29 20:45:30] <Mishie> Bel: you can always call people dumb
[2018-07-29 20:45:36] <Mishie> I'll protect you ;)
[2018-07-29 20:45:38] <Bel> Thank  you for believing in me, Mish
[2018-07-29 20:45:40] <Bel> <3
[2018-07-29 20:45:45] <Mishie> <3
[2018-07-29 20:45:46] <Camtist> Daisy cries at a -3, Bel
[2018-07-29 20:45:47] <Mishie> I mean uh
[2018-07-29 20:45:47] <Mishie> same
[2018-07-29 20:45:55] <Bel> no no, it's okay
[2018-07-29 20:46:03] <Tha|Hurricane> Camtist, he would have to be totally quiet, but I feel that would make Daisy also cry.
[2018-07-29 20:46:15] <Camtist> His existence would make her cry
[2018-07-29 20:46:20] <Bel> Hey!
[2018-07-29 20:46:24] <Bel> No being mean :|
[2018-07-29 20:47:10] <Teruzi> Okay
[2018-07-29 20:47:12] <Camtist>  /My/ existence would make her cry, Bel
[2018-07-29 20:47:14] <Teruzi> I want to say that Thal was alone
[2018-07-29 20:47:18] <Teruzi> and I totally swinged this bitch
[2018-07-29 20:47:24] <Camtist> She doesn’t like people existing
[2018-07-29 20:47:25] <Teruzi> like florida
[2018-07-29 20:47:29] <Teruzi> or some other swinger state
[2018-07-29 20:47:35] <Tha|Hurricane> You can believe whatever you want.
[2018-07-29 20:48:55] <Teruzi> I do so! All the time!
[2018-07-29 20:49:10] <Tha|Hurricane> That explains everything.
[2018-07-29 20:49:13] <Teruzi> Why, I choose to believe you're secretly thankful to me. I take payment in tokens of friendship. At your earliest convenience.
[2018-07-29 20:52:17] <Nick> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KVc7JqVrqLWnjTpVlWVlvu_8Ha0tP6e2JRrW99aD0-M/edit
[2018-07-29 20:52:22] <Nick> spell creation guide
[2018-07-29 20:52:28] <Nick> please comment/suggest stuff on here
[2018-07-29 20:54:08] → Mahasim joined (Mahasim@net-mebv7v.router.siliconvalleywifi.com)
[2018-07-29 20:55:52] <Shadewalker> Just got out of a shower. I'll look to the mods here. Are we releasing the doc?
[2018-07-29 20:56:09] <Nick> Was there a conclusion reached?
[2018-07-29 20:56:16] <Nick> I don't think there was
[2018-07-29 20:56:21] <Camtist> Ugh. Decisions.
[2018-07-29 20:56:28] <Thepicheese> We could have a poll.
[2018-07-29 20:56:30] <Camtist> Someone make a poll or something
[2018-07-29 20:56:32] <Camtist> Yeah
[2018-07-29 20:56:33] <Bel> I believe it was a somewhat tired sigh followed by "ugh, I guess"
[2018-07-29 20:56:35] <Tha|Hurricane> My opinion on it is known.
[2018-07-29 20:56:47] <Camtist> We’ll make this a democracy
[2018-07-29 20:56:52] <Bel> What a sham
[2018-07-29 20:57:01] <Teruzi> Aw man
[2018-07-29 20:57:03] <Nick> I'll ban anyone who votes to release it
[2018-07-29 20:57:11] <Camtist> Also, Nick: keep in mind that two spell lists can actually be the same, or at least very similar
[2018-07-29 20:57:13] <Tha|Hurricane> I'll ban anyone who votes to keep it secret.
[2018-07-29 20:57:14] <Teruzi> I dare you to vote to realease it
[2018-07-29 20:57:16] <Teruzi> *release
[2018-07-29 20:57:25] <Teruzi> Actually-
[2018-07-29 20:57:26] <Nick> cam, you want to ban the abstainers?
[2018-07-29 20:57:27] <Tha|Hurricane> Just to keep the intimidation fair.
[2018-07-29 20:57:28] <Teruzi> Hrm.
[2018-07-29 20:57:30] <Camtist> If the family/practitioner is fairly traditional
[2018-07-29 20:57:33] <Teruzi> I don't think we should do the poll now.
[2018-07-29 20:57:38] <Camtist> I am an abstained tho, Nick
[2018-07-29 20:57:42] <Teruzi> If anything, we should sit on this sort of thing for a bit longer.
[2018-07-29 20:57:48] <Teruzi> unless Thal wants them released -today-.
[2018-07-29 20:57:57] <Teruzi> I don't see any reason to rush the motion. I might yet change sides again.
[2018-07-29 20:58:01] <Nick> banning yourself is always fun
[2018-07-29 20:58:13] * Nick set channel modes +b *!*@*.isthebest
[2018-07-29 20:58:33] <Camtist> I’m going driving. Try not to kill each other in the meantime, pls
[2018-07-29 20:58:43] — Tha|Hurricane releases deadly nerve gas
[2018-07-29 20:58:47] → Maha joined (Mahasim@net-h9a1ot.router.siliconvalleywifi.com)
[2018-07-29 20:58:50] <Thepicheese> https://goo.gl/forms/TZ4XWspHRfqHbCn73
[2018-07-29 20:58:58] <Nick> funnily enough I don't know how to unban myself
[2018-07-29 20:59:07] <Bel> uh hoh
[2018-07-29 20:59:11] <Bel> Don't get logged out
[2018-07-29 21:00:02] * Nick set channel modes -b *!*@*.isthebest
[2018-07-29 21:00:09] <Nick> luckily google knows
[2018-07-29 21:02:04] <Shadewalker> I will be going to bed. If people want to spontaneously release it, Nick has the doc and authority as a mod to due so. My one request is that Bel add a disclaimer so terrifying that all who read it will immediately close the window.