Primogen Meeting Feb 5 2018

Primogen council Feb 5th


Contents:
Guivre
Amelie
Agate
Sybil
Lillian
Brittney
Obvious Exits:
Elysium <O>

Arianna has arrived.

Brittney arrives and takes a seat. As other people start coming in she offers a slight nod to them, "Good evening."

Amelie makes the short walk from her office, and curtsies to Brittney and whomever else is already here. "Bon Soir." She smile and takes a seat.

Arya comes in from Carlton Pines Country Club - Elysium Inner Sanctum

Not far behind Brittney was Sybil. Licking her lips she would look around before make her way to a seat near Brittney.

Agate wanders in trailing the sweet smelling mist from her vape pen and takes her seat in the chair for Clan Assamite.

Madeline steps in with a smile "bon soir all, thank you for coming. Please do take your seats we have a lot to get through tonight"

"Bonswa everyone." Guivre calls cheerfully as he breezes into the room and quickly takes his seat.

Arya is there, stepping inside and she settles right into her seat, her bag at her feet. "Hello everyone," she greets/

Arianna heads over to have herself a seat behind the Madeline, pulling out a pen and notepad to hold in her lap.

Madeline takes her seat and nods "I am very pleased to see you all as I said, we've quite a lot to discuss, but before we begin. I did not receive word from any clan as to itinerary points they wished to add. If there is nothing further to put on the agenda, I would like to begin with a suggestion on how we handle voting in this room"

Agate taps her vape pen on the table "The call to meeting came very late to me. Our schedules have been sort of random of late. So I've missed some of the more fun things. I have two items of concern for Clan Assamite. Item the First: Privacy of our closed court meetings. Item the Second: Court Location rotation.

Amelie looks to Agate with interest, and questions on those topics, but waits for Madeline's lead as to what the first topic will be.

Not far behind Brittney was Sybil. Licking her lips she would look around before make her way to a seat near Brittney.

Guivre shakes his head no when Madeline asks for other topics.

Arya leans back in her chair. "Nothing at the moment, but something could come up later for Lasombra."

Madeline nods to Agate "Merci Primogen, I shall add those to the agenda for tonight. Now a suggestion has been made to reorganize the way in which we vote. You may wish to adopt it or not, it is for this council to decide. Here is what was suggested to me
  A topic is presented and your Primogen gets a vote, if your clan is a Pillar clan, that gives you a second vote. Whomever currently holds the chair (meaning the person speaking), gets an additional vote.
  For example I usually begin the session of each meeting and thus that gives me the right to call a topic to vote upon. Once that topic is debated and voted upon, the right to speak passes to another that requests the right to lead the presentation and vote of the next topic, and thus gains that extra vote
  I.. am ambivolent on this but wished to hear your thoughts, debate and finally - your vote

	Lillian entered the room quietly, found seat and settle in to listen to the proceedings. She's quiet, as is her way, and observes the others in the council, acknowledging them with a nod in greeting.

"I get the idea of the first two votes but I fear I don't really undestand he chair getting a third vote? It seems as if the is when the concept starts to get too convoluted to me." Guivre adds his two cents, "Otherwise, it seems feasible."

Brittney looks over to Madeline, "I don't have any problems with pillar clans getting two votes, but why would the chair get an extra vote? There doesn't seem to be any reason for that." She looks around the room, "Also speaking of piller clans, I would like to point out that the Nosferatu seem to be missing, again"

Arya leans back in her chair. "It does bring advantage to those who are often present and I do like that part of it, but I liked better when the idea of votes was linked to status."

Agate shrugs "I agree with Guivre. Who brought up the topic shouldn't have more weight in the vote. It's their topic." she gestures to
Arya "While I'd love to have more sway really the only non-Pillar clans are the Lasombra and the Gangrel unless we start letting in others which so far has been rejected. And while the Gangrel are next to irrelevent I would not wish to see Arya's contributions held in such low regard."

Madeline nods and looks to Amelie, Lillian and Sybil for their thoughts on the matter

Amelie hmms. "I would tend to agree. I see where being a pillar clan should bring more weight to your vote. It is up to those of us non-pillar clan representatives to make our case if our view is not as popular so to speak."

Sybil would just raise her brow then as she looked around. "...why on earth....would the topic mentioner get another? I'm with them on that one. The weighted for pillar clans I can see....that was something similar I am used to....but not this extra....thing."

	"I think we make this all to complex," Lillian says. "The purpose of this council is to exchange information and to advise the Prince. Right? What's the point of votes? What would we be voting on? We can we just talk, debate, try and come up with solutions to problems for the Prince to consider?"

Madeline inclines her head "I am in agreement with all of you on the third vote, I feel it is unnecessary. And Lillian brings up a point, do we need to vote? I feel that we do - it solves a lot of arguments that debate and discussion sometimes cannot. What say you all... would this voting option be acceptable to the council if the matter of the 3rd vote were removed? Do you feel it is a good thing?

Agate waves at Amelie "Woops, Amelie too. I keep mentally dissasociating her with Vivianne because she doesn't whine, act entitled, tell us what a massive Elder she is, and demand things constantly."

Arya considers the idea. "We need a vote. We need a way to count the majority, even if we don't mark the vote other than as a way to advise the Prince on which way the vote went."

Brittney looks over to Lillian and nods slightly, "You do have a point, since this is a puppet council with no real power, offical votes don't really mean much in the grand scale of things. That said, if we are all going to bother showing up here it is probably best to keep up apperances and at least pretend we are doing something."

Arianna sits quietly behind Madeline there, watching intently, particularly those not speaking, and occasionally jotting a note.

Agate snorts in derision. "Bitch please. The hypocrisy of your statement Brittney. A puppet calling this council a puppet. Cedric's hand is so far up your ass we could pull his fingerprings off your rib cage." she snorts "The only reason you're here is Cedric needs someone to take the fall for sedition while being able to claim some sort of plausible deniability."

Arya's eye twitches as Brittney speaks and she turns to look at her. "Speaking from the Tremere puppy who comes here with instructions from her own power from on high. She does not run Tremere, she does what Cedric tells her. You have no real power. And yet, those of us who knew Cedric when he was on this council are very aware that power is what he seeks and he seeks to replace Vegard. Your method of action, starting fights in this council speaks very well of you dividing us for /his/ benefit."

Madeline glances at Brittney and while she might have been quiet on that topic, Agate takes the ball and runs with it.. Arya hot on her heels

Sybil would lean back some as she nodded. "Can we for once....." Sitting up straight she would look around. "....just not?" Looking around she would just raise her brow. "And that goes for everyone? May we please stay on topic.....?"

	"We're here to advise the Prince and to keep in communication," Lillian says. "I read those Roberts Rules things, and sure, we can do that to keep conversations going. And if there really is something we want to vote on, then it's just a matter of someone calling the question, proposing a motion, seconding the motion and then we vote - usually a simple majority. We can do that s needed, but I doubt we' be voting city laws into power or anything, right? So why don't we just do what we are supposed to be doing here: Talking - or arguing - and then letting the Prince know of anything important that came up. We can put that to a vote, right? I so move to do that. Anyone second that motion?"

Sybil raise her hand. "I second we vote on the vote and move on to the next topic...."

Madelines lips quirk and she nods to Lillian and Sybil "We have a motion moved and seconded. The topic is Each Pillar clan receives two votes upon teh topic at hand, all others recieve one. All in favor say Aye.. those not, please say Nay"

Agate says, “Nay.”

Arya puts a hand on the table. "Nay."

Guivre has been listening but quiet, having said his point, "Aye."

Madeline nods "Toreador votes Aye. Even if we did not count the Tremere Whip's vote, the Aye's take the topic.

Agate snickers at Brittney before gesturing at Arya and her herself pointing between the two of them. "We were both Primogen before we held any other court positions. I had to petition to get my seat voted in despite my clan's rise to being among the Pillars with the mass defection of the Gangrel. So your accusation is as empty as your head."

Arya tilts her head at Brittney. "Mmm, me too. Also, you were appointed. I don't see what being appointed has to do with 'earning'. Next topic!"

Madeline nods "the next topic is the presence of our various Whip in the Primogen Meetings. It has been proposed they are a distraction and only 1 representative of each clan be permitted in each meeting. If the Primogen is unavailable, the Whip represents them that evening, which is of course one of their functions." and she opens that topic for conversation
Madeline lifts a hand "Oh and if we could... let us /all/ treat one another with respect in this chamber?" she looks at each who have had harsh words tongiht

Sybil would look to Madeline as if agreeing then relaxed. Her one eyes closed as she adjusted her eye patch....waiting.


“I think the fewer in the meeting, the better," Lillian says. "I move we keep the council meetings to Primogen only, and whips can sit in when the Primogen is unavailable." She talks in her usual quiet, terse, cold manner.

Agate says, “Can we vote to trade the Primogen for the Whip then?" winking over at Sybil before grinning impishly at Madeline and nodding. "I think this topic is simple and fine. It'll speed up meetings.”

Subject: Reminder Primogen Meeting Monday Night and Agenda Items (fwd from
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Bon Soir all Council members, just a reminder our meeting is Monday evening at 7pm cst in the council chamber. I hope to see every face there as we have a great deal to discuss. Please send me your agenda topics - here are the topics I have at this time:
 A new voting system hoping to increase our efficiency
 1 Representative per clan allowed in the Council Meetings at a time
 Recomendations on if Harpies should participate in Council meetings/votes
 Should setites be allowed in the city
  If you have other agenda items please send them to me as quickly as you can. I look forward to seeing you all tomorrow night
  Respectfully, Madeline Blanchard, Toreador Primogen
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Arya give a nod. "Yes, I think less people talking moves the meetings along faster. But they should be allowed, when in training, to sit in the back and watch and keep their mouth shut. We need to be able to train them by experience/"

Brittney shakes her head slightly, "The large part of the duty of a Whip is to often take notes and record things for the Primogen, which they can't do if they are not there. Another big part of their job is to sit in for the Primogen if they can not make it, but how are they supposed to do that if you cut them out of the loop? Then the Whip also helps carrying out things agreed upon on the meeting, but once again how do they do that if they are not there? I see no reason what so ever for them to be banned from the room." She gives a slight nod to Arya, "Yeah, if someone has a problem with them talking just tell them to remain silent. There hasn't been any issues with Whips disrupting the meetings, so banning them seems overly drastic for no real reason."

Arianna jots a couple of notes, pausing briefly while Brittney is speaking, and then quietly shows a note to Madeline before sitting back.

Madeline is listening carefully to each speaker and goes glance at her Whip's note

Sybil would raise a brow though that eye was closed. Leaning over, she grab that handbag she would sat at her feet discreetly then put it in her lap. Looking around she would finally open her eye as she waited.

You sense Arianna shows a note, "I did think it was typical that whips didn't speak when acting as second."

Madeline nods and turns back "It is generally not the case that Whips add into our conversations unless asked, usually they do as has been said, they listen, they learn, they take notes and only represent the clan should their Primogen be indisposed. This is tradition and I see no issue with continuing it. Is there further discussion

	"How about Whips are allowed for not taking and to inform or advise their Primogen," Lillian suggests, "but they are not allowed to argue or vote on the question, unless they are sitting in as Primogen. My point is that the more people we allow to join in debate, the longer these meetings will take. And my patience runs thin quick."

Amelie asks, "Shouldn't a Primogen meet with their Whip anyway and be sure they are always up to speed? And shouldn't Primogens be able to take their own notes? Just wondering..."

Madeline nods to Lillian as she listens then to Amelie "oui Primogen that is true. Some have pointed out fewer bodies in teh council chamber may speed along the meeting, and some have said having silent whip in the meeting room will not lengthen the arguement. Has anyone a motion to put to a vote?

Agate nods to Lillian "It's a fair points. I vote nay."

Brittney nods to Lillian, "Since it has always been one vote per clan and they whips tend not to enter debates anyway, that is mostly the status quo." She looks over to Amelie, "Why waste time explaining what happened in the meeting to someone, when they can just be there? The time is better left discuss what to do next."

Arya ponders the motion for several minutes. "I motion that Whips be allowed, in cases of training alone. That training should not last for more than six months. If you cannot get someone competent by that point, they should be replaced."

You say, “Meaning that outside of training, they not be in the chamber, correct?”

Arya nods at Madeline's question.

Brittney shakes her head slightly, "Whips are far more than just possibile replacements for primogen. Saying they should be cut out of the loop once they are 'trained' is silly."

Madeline nods "Have we a second to the motion that we then can vote upon?

Agate says, “I'll second it just so we can move on to a vote.”

You say, “There is a motion moved and seconded that whip not be allowed in the council meetings other than for 6 months of training. Thos in favor say aye, those opposed - nay”

Agate says, “Nay. If we can boot them out if they're disruptive.”

Brittney says, “Nay”
	Lillian is looking bit annoyed, so shakes her head and says, "Nay."

Amelie says, “Nay”

"Aye," says the Lasombra Primogen, though she's obviously not the majority on this issue. She winks at Madeline and then allows her to count the rest of the votes.

	"Are we going to table this conversation on Primogen, Whips and votes," Lillian asks, "or do we want to argue the question more?"

You say, “is ther emore to the topic you feel has not been addressed Primogen? It not.. it is time to vote"”

Amelie asks, "Who is left to vote?"

Madeline looks to Guivre

	"I voted nay on the last motion. But I think there is more to discuss," Lillian says softly. "That motion failed, it doesn't mean the whole conversation has to be shut down. We still need to decide as body who is allowed to argue, put forth motions and makes votes. I move that we only allow the Primogen to argue, make motions and vote; or, in the absence of a Primogen, the Whip can argue, make motions and vote. All others present at the meeting should be quiet and respectful."

Arya nods at Lillian. "So is that your motion, Primogen?" she asks, tilting her head. "Or do you think that it needs more discussion rather than a vote, because I'd jsut agree with you."

Agate glances at her cellphone "Dang, and my whip isn't available to replace me." she looks around "Forgive me folks. I've gotta step out. Confluence of celestial events." she passes her notes to Arya and whispers to her on the two topics she wanted brought up before slipping out.

Madeline nods "That is an expounded upon version of the motion at hand, I believe we all agree that is the heart of the matter being voted upon Primogen, what say yo, yay or nay?

Brittney looks to Lillian, "I can understand your position, but I don't think we need offical rules for this. There hasn't been any problems in the past, and a simple request for them to be silent would probably be sufficient."

Arya nods at Agate and then she looks up at Lillian. "I think making it clear what is expected is not a bad thing. I motion to include
Lillian's definition into the Whip responsibilities."

Amelie says, “Second.”

Madeline nods to those who have spoken "The motion is thus amended. Toreador votes Nay - that whip be allowed in the chamber with the rules in place we have discussed. Do any Priomogen wish to change their vote? Lillian do you wish yoru vote recoreded before we move on?

Amelie raises, "I think it is more feasible to simply take new vote. New motion made and previous one was already voted down."

	"I vote yay," Lillian says softly, "That primogen lead in arguing, making motions and voting; whips are a silent second, and only get to argue the point, make motions and vote if their Primogen is absent."

Arya nods as Lillian speaks. "I vote aye."

Brittney says, “I vote nay”

Amelie says, “aye”

Madeline nods "Toreador votes Aye - That primogen lead in arguing, making motions and voting; whips are a silent second, and only get to argue the point, make motions and vote if their Primogen is absent.

Madeline nods "the Aye's have it, the whip's will not be barred from the chamber"
  I wish now to put to you that the question has risen as to allowing Setites within the city. Should they be permitted, or banned?

Arya rocks back in her chair again. "I think as long as they follow the traditions, and they are careful about the Masq, then they can be quite useful."

Arya rocks back in her chair again. "I think as long as they follow the traditions, and they are careful about the Masq, then they can be quite useful." (re)

Madeline nods to Arya and looks to the other Primogen present for their thoughts

Brittney smiles as she looks around the room, "I am fine on accepting them on a case by case basis. If they present them to the Prince, get checked out, and there is no problems then I don't see any reason to ban them."

Amelie nods, "I think it should be on a case by case basis. So far, all the ones we know of in the city have been presented."

Madeline nods "Given what we know of Alejandro and he was approved on said case by case Basis and now.. walks the very fine line of the Prince's disaprovaL?

Arya flattens her hand on the table. "Yes, but we cannot know these things on presentation, even with one of our own. I would err on the side of Hospitality and then deal with the issues if they arise."

Amelie adds, "There is also Laura, and Khalid, and Hedone who have kept back and quiet and caused no problem." She nods to Arya, "I agree. Unless we suddenly are over run with them, I say we handle them based on those issues that arise, and not hold the whole clan accountible."

Madeline nods in approval at the discussion taking place and looks to Lillian for her opinion
Madeline nods to all "Primogen Lillian if you've nothing to add, I move that Setites be allowed in the city on a case by case basis if they Present themselves to His Grace, are researched and follow the laws laid out here. Is there a second?

Amelie nods, "I second that."

Arya nods at Amelie. "I third and vote Aye for the motion."

Brittney nods, "I vote Aye."

Amelie agrees, "Aye."

Madeline nods to Lillian for her vote "Toreador votes Nay"

You say, “I believe the Aye's have this vote" she says, knowing she was the only one to protest the snakes.. "Shall we move on?”

Brittney nods her head slightly.

Arya gives Madeline a nod. "Agate's first issue?" she asks to be sure. "We have reports of a leak from Court meetings to those outside. Even in the closed meetings. I present that the Primogen should look to their own clans and find out where the leak is coming from, including ghouls. It need not be intentional, but if it escalates and the Sheriff has to take action, it will be much less pleasant. This is one of the jobs of the Primogen, to keep control of their clans."

Madeline nods with a soft furrowing of her lovely brow "If it were intentional, that is criminal, but.. if not, it could be the person leaking information is being played.. that can happen to almost anyone

Amelie shakes her head, "A closed court is a closed court. Sharing that information and joining in the game of telephone, getting information skewed when it is important topics - is not good."

Madeline nods to Amelie in agreement. "That game of.. telephone, it causes more problems than it solves"

Brittney looks around the room, "Well there is the obvious example of the the Nosferatu leaking informations from the primogen meetings, so I wouldn't put it past them. Though I suppose they would argue it wasn't a closed meeting."

	Lillian voted Aye on the motion of allowing Setites in the city, and is otherwise quietly listening to the proceedings.

You say, “I'm not sure I see a vote in that topic Arya, but a very stern warning that should be communicated by each pRiomogen to their clan and sundry.”

Brittney looks around, "What was the specific thing that was leaked? Was it something specific, or are we talking more general terms?"

Amelie speaks up, "I think there needs to be something issued from the council, a statement perhaps, reminding the praxis of what a closed court meeting is, and what will happen if information is leaked." She looks to Arya for any details on something leaked.

Arya gives a shake of her head. "Agate didn't pass on specifics. I motion that each clan look within, just to ensure that information isn't being communicated. We could issue a statement about what is free to disclose and what is not, and then we can vote on that if you like, but I think we need to find the culprit nonetheless and ensure that it's /not/ a malicious disclosure." She looks over at Brittney. "No Nosferatu was present at our last meeting, were they, Amelie?"

Amelie shakes her head, "Not at the last several court meetings. Hopefully that will change with the latest one seeking to be presented soon."

Brittney considers that, "I am not sure how we can do much with this, without something a bit more specific. We don't even know if it is someone spying, or as people say, it was accidental and they were just gossiping about random stuff."

	"It would be helpful if we knew some details of what was leaked," Lillian states. "But lacking that, I will ask Leon if he's let anything slip."

Amelie adds, "I think considering Primogen Balodis is also Sheriff Balodis, she must know more and as it is under investigation she cannot share yet. That is why I think issuing a blanket statement concerning what a Closed Court is and what the punishment is for leaking information would be is in order. It shows we as a council take it seriously, and allows us to revisit this topic when we have more information if a leaker or spy is discovered.

Arya nods at Amelie. "Madeline, do you think you could prepare a statement with expectations and send it to all of us so this subject doesn't ahve to wait a month?"

Madeline nods "I shall send one to all primogen for approval and then dispersal, will that work?

Arya nods at Madeline and then looks to the rest. "We all agreed?"

Brittney nods her head slightly, "I suppose it doesn't hurt. Though we really need more details for any action beyond that."

	"Fine by me," Lillian agrees softly. "I don't think we need a vote on that, either."

Amelie nods with them. "I agree."

Madeline nods in agreement "Merci Primogen - we didnt touch on every topic but I feel we accomplished a great deal. I will prepare a report for each of you to review with your clans if you wish, and for His Grace
Madeline rises from her seat and gives Arianna a warm smile and nod of approval

Amelie adds, "If you need any help with preparing the statement for review, let me know. I suggested it, and did not wish to put more on your plate, Primogen."

Madeline smiles warmly "Thank you Amelie, your offer is much appreciated

Arianna folds her notepad closed, tucking it away as she rises with a smile back at Madeline. And a nod to all the other Primogen.

	"Nite, all," Lillian says, still seated in her chair as others get up to leave. "Until next time."

You say, “Walk safely in the night Primogen and Whip, the meeting is adjourned"”

Amelie nods. "Merci, and Bon Soir...to you all."

Brittney smiles as she stands, "Have a good evening." She then turns to head out.

Arya gets to her feet, grabs her bag and nods to everyone. "Good evening, everyone. I'm glad to see us all working together again."