Grum #risucraft 040712

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[General Minecraft Modding Discussion and Help | RULES: https://github.com/risucraft/rules | Minecraft 1.2.5 is out | MCP is 1.2.5, see #mcp | For general minecraft help, #minecrafthelp | If you need something on the MCF, report it or go to #minecraftforums | We know $version is out. Shut up and be patient for updates.]
[14:01] == Wacko|away [webchat@c-67-183-173-198.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #risucraft
[14:01] -ChanServ- [#Risucraft] If you can't talk, you are probably using Mibbit. Please use http://webchat.esper.net/?channels=#risucraft instead. Use '/topic #risucraft' to read the topic. If you don't read it, you will be kicked for not following our very simple rules.
[14:01] <Kattmatu> EnderDragon: If people poke the volcano, it will erupt
[14:01] <Miclee> Grum: And you see more?
[14:01] <GaryCXJk> hillarious*
[14:01] <Miclee> If you see more, go fix it.
[14:01] <Riking> THEN WHAT IS THE UNDER ONE!
[14:01] <EnderDragon> Poke it with a steek
[14:01] <GaryCXJk> Wait, hilarious.
[14:01] <Grum> just 'hackfixing it' to 'run faster' is not a solution
[14:01] <GaryCXJk> One L.
[14:01] <Grum> Miclee: working on that?
[14:02] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: look. We've thrown a huge amount of good ideas your way. Increase block id limit, infinite sprite sheets, no obfuscation, official mcp mappings (proper ones), modloader integration, performance tweaks, etc. why won't you listen? :(
[14:02] <Miclee> Seriously, stop being fucking condescending to me.
[14:02] == Wacko|away has changed nick to WackoMcGoose
[14:02] <SmallDeadGuy> It makes me sad
[14:02] <Miclee> It's really starting to get on my nerves.
[14:02] <GenuineSounds> Can't stand the flaming homos in here.
[14:02] <Miclee> You're sitting here ignoring the modding community's comments when we're trying to fucking help.
[14:02] <GaryCXJk> SmallDeadGuy, since when did Mojang ever listen anyway?
[14:02] <Kattmatu> GenuineSounds: Let's take our spells and leave
[14:02] <Miclee> And to boot, you're mocking some of us.
[14:02] <Risugami> to be fair, I don't agree with all of those
[14:02] <GaryCXJk> If they did, water elevators would still exist.
[14:02] <SmallDeadGuy> GaryCXJk: They listen occasional
[14:02] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: i did listen, they are all valid points yet it wont solve your problems
[14:02]  * GenuineSounds casts level 5: Cock of the Infinite!
[14:02] <GaryCXJk> R.I.P. water elevators :(
[14:02] <Riking> WTF?
[14:02] <_303> cue grum pulling a jeb and leaving
[14:02] <Riking> one second
[14:02] <SmallDeadGuy> MAYBE WE SHOULD TYPE LIKE THIS SO THEY SEE IT BETTER
[14:02] <Miclee> _303: No, jeb actually listened.
[14:03]  * EnderDragon slaps GenuineSounds with his endercock
[14:03] <Miclee> Grum sits here saying he's listening but is saying 'that solves nothing!'
[14:03] <Miclee> (meanwhile it solves most of us modder's problems)
[14:03] <GaryCXJk> You know what solves nothing? If I pull out my dick and start whacking off.
[14:03] <EnderDragon> Solve all the things!
[14:03] <Grum> Miclee: if you can truly tell me that the biggest problem this source-base has is that its 'not producing high enough fps' then really ... cmon :(
[14:03] <GaryCXJk> Because this shit makes my dick go limp.
[14:03] <SmallDeadGuy> Yeah jeb was nice, he have very good reasoning in his arguments and thought well about our suggestions
[14:03] <Miclee> Grum: I never once stated that's the biggest problem.
[14:03]  * GenuineSounds casts level 3: Erotisism (Turning all of you into beautiful babes)
[14:03] <Risugami> remember when jeb tried to pull a method pointer in Java, and the obfuscator said no? good times
[14:03] <Riking> .g unix find and replace in failes
[14:03] <crow> Riking: http://forums.devshed.com/unix-help-35/unix-find-and-replace-text-within-all-files-within-a-146179.html -- Unix find and replace text within all files within a directory ...: "Unix find and replace..."
[14:03] <Miclee> I said it's ONE prbolem.
[14:03] <GaryCXJk> Sorry, couldn't type that with a straight face.
[14:03] <Grum> in many occasions the obfuscate code is actually BETTER than the non-obfuscated code
[14:03] == Tundmetu has changed nick to pig
[14:03] <Miclee> Fuck, Minecraft's codebase has a billion problems.
[14:03] <Grum> yes, so lets fi them
[14:03] <Grum> properly
[14:03] <WackoMcGoose> Grum: There is, however, a performance problem and it's not tied to polycount.
[14:04] <_303> oh yeah Risugami, in stronghold etc gen
[14:04] <GenuineSounds> Miclee, and so do you.
[14:04] <Miclee> We can't help you if you ignore us, Grum.
[14:04] <GaryCXJk> I also want to fi them.
[14:04] <Grum> WackoMcGoose: ofc!
[14:04] <GenuineSounds> BOOM HEADSHOT!
[14:04] <Didz> this channel is sapping my brain cells faster than #minecraft.
[14:04] <EnderDragon> Didz, give it another 24 hours, it'll be fine
[14:04] <Grum> Miclee: you cant help with that beyond designing how you'd like to interact with a future api
[14:04] <GaryCXJk> Now Didz it?
[14:04] <WackoMcGoose> I just threw a new 3D-item-rendering thing at EvilMC and it didn't sap my fps in Eclipse at all.
[14:04] <EnderDragon> and people making penis jokes
[14:04] == KamalN [~Kamal@109.64.150.237] has joined #risucraft
[14:04] <GaryCXJk> God I'm fucking awesome at puns.
[14:04] <GenuineSounds> EnderDragon, That is a damn lie.
[14:04] <Miclee> Grum: So the only say we get at all is in terms of the API?
[14:04] <Grum> what is evilmc? O.o
[14:04] <WackoMcGoose> Yet, I can't even record the game period in the main client without OptiFine.
[14:04] <Miclee> You won't listen to the community for anything else?
[14:04] <WackoMcGoose> EvilMinecraft...
[14:04] <Miclee> Grum: EvilMinecraft.
[14:04] <Grum> which is?
[14:04] == WorldIntel [WorldIntel@2.83.7.141] has quit [Client Quit]
[14:04] <Miclee> A mod.
[14:05] <Miclee> A fairly well-known and popular one.
[14:05] <GaryCXJk> WackoMcGoose, oh you have got to be kidding me.
[14:05] <Grum> Miclee: no it seems you arent listening :)
[14:05] <Miclee> Grum: No, I am.
[14:05] <ShaRose> WELL that's all fun and good.
[14:05] <Miclee> You just keep speaking condescendingly.
[14:05] <EnderDragon> How do I listen?
[14:05] <Risugami> how many WPM did this channel pull last hour
[14:05] <GenuineSounds> Yes, I'm not.
[14:05] <GaryCXJk> I've worked several days on something similar, only to hear it already exists.
[14:05] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: That's because of decompilers' interpretation. And they aren't perfect. I'm annoyed with fernflower pre-pending "this"l to absolutely fucking everything, and not having decent indentation, or naming parameters nicely. WHY CAN'T WE GET NIVE SOURCE TO WORK WITH
[14:05] == turtlebrain [webchat@cpc2-pool12-2-0-cust181.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #risucraft
[14:05] <EnderDragon> Risugami, in the last 10 minutes?
[14:05] <Kattmatu> Do we have a bot?
[14:05] <EnderDragon> several hundred
[14:05] <ShaRose> I'm going to keep writing up that block id Transform thing...
[14:05] == Forkk|Offline has changed nick to Forkk13
[14:05] <EnderDragon> multiply that by 6
[14:05] <Miclee> Dinnerbone: Why must you be afk? You're so much easier to talk to. D:
[14:05] <WackoMcGoose> So, if my lappy can handle an increased polycount, then what the duck is wrong with vanilla that OptiFine has to fix before I get above 40fps (CamStudio minimum threshold)?
[14:05] <EnderDragon> you get as many lines of code in RenderGlobal
[14:06] <Risugami> heh
[14:06] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: but those are problems that are so easy to fix; look at mc-dev
[14:06] <EnderDragon> buh-dum, TSS
[14:06] <SmallDeadGuy> Kattmatu: Stop playing stupid
[14:06] <Grum> https://github.com/Bukkit/mc-dev <-- that is fernflower
[14:06] <GaryCXJk> I added Wavefront OBJ models and my framerate didn't drop.
[14:06] <Kattmatu> SmallDeadGuy: What do you want me to do?
[14:06] <Kattmatu> Ranting wont solve shit
[14:06] <GaryCXJk> At least not much.
[14:06] <Riking> Grum, one second
[14:06] <SmallDeadGuy> Kattmatu: Go back to Tundmatu
[14:06] == turtlebrain_ [webchat@cpc2-pool12-2-0-cust181.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #risucraft
[14:06] <Kattmatu> oh
[14:06] <EnderDragon> Kattmatu, rant harder!
[14:06] <Riking> i'm replacing Math.atan2 with TrigMath.atan2
[14:06] <Risugami> vanilla minecraft still has that calculating time of day 768 times per tick for lightmap
[14:06] <Kattmatu> no thx br0
[14:06] <WackoMcGoose> GaryCXJk: Furthering my point. Polycount is not Minecraft's framerate problem, something ELSE is.
[14:06] <SmallDeadGuy> And stop pretending to be new, "Do we have a not in here?"
[14:07] <Kattmatu> Riking: Find all > Replace with
[14:07] <Kattmatu> :D
[14:07] <Riking> fuck wasn't vanilla
[14:07] <GaryCXJk> Since when was fuck?
[14:07] <WackoMcGoose> (Though I do admit, turning off Smooth Lighting doubles my framerate, OptiFine or not. So maybe it's somewhere in the shading code...)
[14:07] <Grum> Riking: you can do that trivially, do you know about the sideeffects of it?
[14:07] <pig> Kae
[14:07] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: Look. You guys suck at performance:
[14:07] <Riking> i know that the error is less than the error in server->client packets
[14:08] <SmallDeadGuy> !optimization | Grum
[14:08] <crow> Grum: How not to optimise: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30361085/superfast.png (B1.7.3, 4x AA), http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30361085/notsosuperfast.png (1.0.0, no AA)
[14:08] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: which performance?
[14:08] <Riking> also, i'm testing the sideeffects right now
[14:08] <GaryCXJk> I've got a bag next to me, filled with the amount of fucks I give about all these excuses.
[14:08] <GaryCXJk> Oh, apparently the bag is empty!
[14:08] <GaryCXJk> What a convenience!
[14:08] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: lol you seriously comparing those two situations?
[14:08] <Miclee> SmallDeadGuy: Don't bother saying anything to Grum relating to experience without 1000 specific examples.
[14:08] <Riking> Samantha, give GaryCXJk a fuck
[14:08] <Miclee> performance*
[14:08] <Samantha> No.
[14:08] <Miclee> Not experience
[14:08] <EnderDragon> SmallDeadGuy, that makes me scared on how much FPS I would get if I went to classic
[14:08] <Miclee> I get something like 400FPS on classic
[14:09] <Riking> hmmm... Grum, it seems Samantha agrees with us
[14:09] <Miclee> On 1.2.5 I get ~20FPS
[14:09] <Risugami> not that great of comparsion
[14:09] <WackoMcGoose> My framerate in 1.7.3 was about 30-40fps, sufficient for CamStudio. In 1.1.0 and above, barely 25fps vanilla.
[14:09] <InsanityBringer> You want to try indev instead of classic
[14:09] <Grum> dude that is just a BS comparison
[14:09] <Risugami> the notsuperfast one has chunk updates
[14:09] <Kattmatu> I still get ~1k fps on lowest settings
[14:09] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: I have better ones. 100+ fps looking up, <20 fps looking down/across
[14:09] <Riking> i know :)
[14:09] <InsanityBringer> Classic does messy things and runs slower
[14:09] == turtlebrain [webchat@cpc2-pool12-2-0-cust181.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Web client closed]
[14:09] <EnderDragon> InsanityBringer, but I dont have any copies of Indev :<
[14:09] <WackoMcGoose> EnderDragon: Wouldn't help. A while ago I MCNostalgia'd back to Alpha 1.1.0, and the framerate was TWICE as bad.
[14:09] <Grum> also really, what does it matter if the fps is 400 or 100? O.o
[14:09] == DigiDuncan [~digidunca@cpe-67-240-105-3.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #risucraft
[14:09] <Miclee> Grum: My FPS is 20.
[14:09] <Miclee> There's your problem.
[14:10] <GenuineSounds> Rendering should be completely seperate thread or is that how OpenGL already works?
[14:10] <Riking> Grum, ***********
[14:10] <WackoMcGoose> So, the performance fuckup happened between the Adventure Update and now.
[14:10] <Riking> Grum, it DOES MATTER
[14:10] <Risugami> I run at 10 FPS, and I don't care
[14:10] <Grum> Riking: no it doesnt; having 20fps however does!
[14:10] <Riking> Grum, there are some people whose fps, with those same changes
[14:10] <Miclee> Grum: Also the something around 5% of people who can't even RUN Minecraft.
[14:10] <Riking> would improve from 4 to 16
[14:10] <WackoMcGoose> Risugami: Damn. What kind of low-end system is that?
[14:10] <Miclee> (not being able to run being ~0-10FPS)
[14:10] <EnderDragon> Miclee, it's grown since then
[14:10] <Risugami> a low-end system
[14:10] <GaryCXJk> Back, needed to insert Puss in Boots.
[14:10] <Miclee> Probably has.
[14:10] <GaryCXJk> That's not an euphemism.
[14:10] <EnderDragon> my laptop can run around 10 fps
[14:10] <GaryCXJk> I'm going to watch the movie.
[14:11] <GenuineSounds> I remember having to fix the autosaving bug in 1.9 pre1-4
[14:11] <Grum> but not sure what we're talking about, render speed is again not the biggest issue in mc
[14:11] <GenuineSounds> that was BAD
[14:11] <EnderDragon> GaryCXJk, oh god I loved that
[14:11] <Miclee> Grum: So what do you, as a Mojang employee, hope to do to solve the problem for players who have very, very low FPS?
[14:11] <pig> Okay getting bored of watching since this is clearly getting nowhere
[14:11] <Miclee> Grum: There's something like 5% of your userbase UNABLE TO PLAY.
[14:11] <Miclee> How is that not a big problem? :|
[14:11] <WackoMcGoose> My laptop runs at about 20-25fps vanilla (40fps w/ Smooth Lighting off), add about 20fps to those numbers with OptiFine.
[14:11] <GenuineSounds> You guys remember the autosaving thread bug?
[14:11] <Grum> Miclee: maybe those people need better hardware? maybe mojang needs someone who can write proper ogl code?
[14:11] <Risugami> isn't _303 one of those?
[14:11] <EnderDragon> Grum, not everyone can AFFORD better hardware
[14:11] <Miclee> ^
[14:11] <pig> ^
[14:11] <Kattmatu> ^
[14:11] <Miclee> Grum: Most of your playerbase is young, as well.
[14:12] <Didz> ^
[14:12] <Riking> ^
[14:12] <GenuineSounds> !^
[14:12] <crow> \a:o
[14:12] <GenuineSounds> SUCK IT NERDS!
[14:12] <Miclee> You expect 12 year olds to be able to spend $2000 on hardware?
[14:12] <WackoMcGoose> And 40fps (a SMOOTH 40fps) is the minimum threshhold for CamStudio to record (Fraps doesn't even work on this laptop, + I can't buy anything online)
[14:12] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: The fps may be 100~, but there are noticeable lag spikes. There's like 90 frames in the first half of a second, then the rest take fucking ages for some reason. Something like chunk loading or path finding is taking too long
[14:12] <Riking> #!
[14:12] <SmallDeadGuy> Anyway, I gotta go soon
[14:12] <GenuineSounds> SmallDeadGuy, If you go it will be one less sane person here.
[14:12] == zkxs [zkxs@ip98-184-129-94.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #risucraft
[14:12] <Riking> okay, so performance IS an issue
[14:12] <Grum> nah, the game should be playing better, everyone knows the rendering is slow, but 'making it faster' is something that should happen properly, not by just hacking about, that is how it got this slow in the first place
[14:12] <GenuineSounds> I don't think I could take it
[14:12] == Aster has changed nick to Asster
[14:12] <Riking> ...........................................
[14:12] <WackoMcGoose> OptiFine MultiThreaded is one of the best things there is for the game, because it takes chunk loading COMPLETELY out of the render thread.
[14:12] <Riking> ......................................................................................
[14:12] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: that is the problem with threading
[14:12] <Miclee> Grum: And we're telling you to fix it properly. >_>
[14:12] <Riking> ..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
[14:13] <SmallDeadGuy> GenuineSounds: I know it saddens me. The ratio will shift significantly
[14:13] == Asster has changed nick to Aster
[14:13] <Riking> ...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
[14:13] <Riking> .................................................................................
[14:13] == Riking was kicked from #risucraft by Corosus [Riking]
[14:13] == mode/#risucraft [+q *!*@c-67-170-244-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] by Risugami
[14:13] <Miclee> Why in the hell would we be telling you to make more hacky code atop the hacky code?
[14:13] <WackoMcGoose> Holy screenstretching Riking!
[14:13] == Riking [~RikZNC@c-67-170-244-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #risucraft
[14:13] <KamalN> hi
[14:13] <Grum> Miclee: because that is what you are doing :)
[14:13] <ShaRose> Corosus sniped me :(
[14:13] <ShaRose> [Saturday 06:40:38 pm] =-= Riking was booted from #risucraft by Corosus (Riking)
[14:13] <ShaRose> [Saturday 06:40:38 pm] >ChanServ< kick #risucraft Riking stop it
[14:13] <Miclee> Grum: That's because it's all we can do! Why? Because you guys don't give us the source!
[14:13] == KamalN has changed nick to herpyderp
[14:13] <Grum> you have the source?
[14:13] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: I have 8 cores. If your threading is so terrible it causes lag spikes regularly, you need to fucking sort it out
[14:13] <Miclee> >>Because you guys don't give us the source!
[14:13] <Grum> how else are you doing changes?
[14:14] <GenuineSounds> Grum, Would the render rewite be something for like a team like the xbox 360 team rewiters?
[14:14] <GaryCXJk> Got distracted by the Madagascar 3 trailer.
[14:14] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: you do realize that with a single public variable you cannot *ever* guarantee threadsafeness?
[14:14] <GaryCXJk> What did I miss?
[14:14] <Miclee> Grum: My god, I swear it's impossible to get a statement to you without you twisting it in some way.
[14:14] <Fligabob> Grum: Do you seriously not know how minecraft modding works, yet you're writing the API?!
[14:14] <Grum> Miclee: yes
[14:14] <ShaRose> Grum we decompile, if we had access to the real source code we could regularly push your guys updates
[14:14] <Risugami> pseudosource
[14:14] <WackoMcGoose> What SmallDeadGuy said. Crappy performance on my $400 Walmart-bought laptop I can kinda understand, but crappy performance on a BEAST machine?
[14:14] <Grum> Fligabob: i know how it *should* work
[14:14]  * herpyderp is away: I'll be back. EXPECT ME! Muahahaha
[14:14] <Miclee> Grum: WHY do you twist what I say, then?
[14:14] <Grum> ShaRose: which cannot be accepted trivially for legal raisins
[14:14] <Miclee> It's seriously just assholish and pointless.
[14:14] <Miclee> We're trying to help you.
[14:15] == EnderDragon has changed nick to Shadow386
[14:15] <GaryCXJk> NASA can't even run Minecraft properly.
[14:15] <GaryCXJk> In theory.
[14:15] <ShaRose> Grum get people who want access to sign an nda and stuff
[14:15] <ShaRose> bam done
[14:15] <Risugami> would be nice if we had readonly access to minecraft on github
[14:15] <ShaRose> it can be as legal as you want it if you have some level of registration
[14:15] <Risugami> make our own branches :P
[14:15] <GenuineSounds> ArrayBlockingQueue are thread safe and they can be public lol
[14:15] <Fligabob> Grum: I'd have though you'd know at least how we mod the game before writing an API to make it easier. A bit of research into it would mean you could get the API out much faster. Listen to what the people in this room have to do to mod, and how we want it improved.
[14:15] <Miclee> I should just e-mail Carl and tell him that ShaRose.
[14:15] <Miclee> He'll likely listen to it.
[14:15] <GenuineSounds> that's because they are thread safe by design though :P
[14:15] <Grum> Fligabob: so what do you think Bukkit is? :/
[14:15] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: No, but threadsafeness isn't gauranteed to be compromised from public variables. If a mod causes threads to lag its their job to sort it. Most of us know what we're doing and can actually write good code
[14:16] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: that is the problem, right now there is far to little good code in the sourcebase
[14:16] <ShaRose> bukkit had access to source too right? it'd be that, except we shouldn't need a company like curse to pay mojang for it
[14:16] <Miclee> What's crow's quote command?
[14:16] <Fligabob> Grum: Bukkit is completely different to the Minecraft coder pack and modding single player
[14:16] <Miclee> Someone needs to add this.
[14:16] <Miclee> [17:12:19] <+GaryCXJk> NASA can't even run Minecraft properly.
[14:16] <Grum> ShaRose: we saw a snapshot of pre1.7
[14:16] <GenuineSounds> SmallDeadGuy, Speak for yourself mate... I'm god auful
[14:16] <SmallDeadGuy> Miclee: .q add
[14:16] <Shadow386> .q add GaryCXJk NASA can't even run Minecraft properly.
[14:16] <Grum> Fligabob: yes, bukkit adds an api
[14:16] <crow> Shadow386: quote added.
[14:16] <Miclee> LD
[14:16] <SmallDeadGuy> GenuineSounds: :P
[14:16] <Miclee> :D
[14:16] <Miclee> .q GaryCXJk
[14:16] == Portalboat [webchat@ip72-193-215-184.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #risucraft
[14:16] <crow> Miclee: [8/8] 2012-04-07 <GaryCXJk> NASA can't even run Minecraft properly.
[14:16] <Miclee> :D
[14:17] <GaryCXJk> :D
[14:17] <Samantha> =]
[14:17] <TheEndermen> ?ml
[14:17] <crow> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20629262/Latest/ModLoader.zip http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/75440- http://axxim.net/clone1018/modloader/ (javadoc)
[14:17] <GaryCXJk> The only quote I approve of.
[14:17] <GenuineSounds> Pixar's Server farm can't even run Minecraft?!
[14:17] <Portalboat> How would I get an instance of a block from it's ID? For recipes and stuff.
[14:17] <Miclee> Grum: At the current moment I'm utterly confused why Mojang keeps stating you care about your modding community after all that you've said today.
[14:17] <ShaRose> Portalboat Block.blocksList[ID]
[14:17] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: And if you make it open, you'll most likely see MAJOR community improvements. Just look at optifine. It could probably be better if it didn't have to be so hacky
[14:17] <Portalboat> Alright.
[14:17] <Portalboat> Thanks.
[14:17] <Grum> Miclee: you do realize that my opinion is mine alone right? :)
[14:17] <Miclee> All I've seen is "YOU GUYS CAN'T HELP AT ALL, YOU CAN ONLY SAY SOME STUFF WE MIGHT ADD TO THE API"
[14:17] <GaryCXJk> GenuineSounds, that's because they don't want that piece of shit code on their pristine computers.
[14:17] <SmallDeadGuy> Anyway I have to ho now, bye :(
[14:17] <WackoMcGoose> Seriously, your rendering stuff is a bloody mess. It took me a while to wade through RenderBlocks just to find wtf stuff does.
[14:18] <Miclee> Grum: You're a Mojang employee and we're talking to you as such.
[14:18] <Miclee> You should be treating it in that respect.
[14:18] <WackoMcGoose> ^
[14:18] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: and optifine doesnt run on all systems
[14:18] <Miclee> If you can't maintain any level of professionalism, I feel bad for you.
[14:18] <ShaRose> guys, don't bother bringing up optifine
[14:18] <WackoMcGoose> Grum: No, but it DOES mean more systems can run Minecraft.
[14:18] <Risugami> Notch wrote RenderBlocks
[14:18] <ShaRose> jerb tried to buy that
[14:18] <Grum> Miclee: where havent i been professional?
[14:18] <ShaRose> for 10k
[14:18] <ShaRose> and the guy turned it down
[14:18] == SmallDeadGuy has changed nick to SDG|away
[14:18] <GenuineSounds> Really?
[14:18] <Grum> jens did no such thing
[14:18] <ShaRose> yes
[14:18] <WackoMcGoose> I know Notch wrote the base render stuff. But you'd think someone would've cleaned it up by now.
[14:18] <ShaRose> Grum he said he did
[14:18] <xTwilight> Buying OptiFine?
[14:19] <ShaRose> I can pull logs up
[14:19] <xTwilight> Seriously?
[14:19] <xTwilight> ...Wow.
[14:19] <Grum> ShaRose: feel free, i dont believe it +D
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[14:19] <xTwilight> OptiFine doesn't even give me 10 more FPS.
[14:19] <xTwilight> <_<
[14:19] <Miclee> Grum: You've been condescending to me and others multiple times.
[14:19] <Miclee> Even after I asked you not to be.
[14:19] <WackoMcGoose> xTwilight: Say wha?
[14:19] <xTwilight> Yah
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[14:19] <Grum> Miclee: sorry
[14:19] <Kattmatu> ahh
[14:19] <xTwilight> At one release, it lagged my Minecraft. <_<
[14:19] <Kattmatu> found umm's rant about performance
[14:19] <GenuineSounds> xTwilight, durring like beta I got MAJOR fps++ now not so much
[14:19] <Kattmatu> 2012-03-04.txt:[21:07:06] UltraMoogleMan: Scaevolus: Yeah, because VBO has some finite setup time, a better performance choice would be to have a configurable threshold at which it uses VBOs over a given number of verts
[14:20] <Miclee> Grum: Thank you.
[14:20] <Grum> Miclee: and as you say correctly, I have been, not mojang; i'm not always 100% nicely with my words, no bad intend though :)
[14:20] == r4wk [~R4WK@142.163.181.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 190 seconds]
[14:20] <GaryCXJk> Question guys.
[14:20] <Grum> its kinda hard to explain there is more going on behind the obvious
[14:20] <GaryCXJk> What's VBO?
[14:20] <GenuineSounds> Stuff you don't need to know
[14:20] <GaryCXJk> I want to know everything about OpenGL FUCK MY LEG>
[14:20] <Grum> i know stuff like extending blockids etc is important *yet* its a temp hack
[14:20] <Didz> Vertex Buffer Object, gfx stuffs
[14:20] <GenuineSounds> about vertecies
[14:20] <Miclee> Grum: Temp is better than none.
[14:20] <Kattmatu> GaryCXJk: Not restricted to ogl
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[14:21] <turol> vbo allows storing vertex data in gpu memory
[14:21] <Grum> Miclee: i'd rather spend my time fixing the real problem right now :/
[14:21] <Grum> there is sooo much to do
[14:21] <turol> so it does not need to be transmitted over bus on every draw call
[14:21] <Miclee> Grum: People have offered to do the block id stuff already.
[14:21] <Miclee> And the spritesheets.
[14:21] <Grum> we could spend our time nonstop on fixing and patching stuff but that would still keep the problems
[14:21] <Miclee> >_>
[14:21] <Risugami> can we ever expect 3D biomes?
[14:21] <Grum> Miclee: i rather extends it further
[14:21] <GenuineSounds> VBO is a really really really important thing to learn about when doing real gfx programming, but I can't be asked.
[14:21] <GaryCXJk> 3D biomes?
[14:21] <Miclee> Grum: What?
[14:21] <ShaRose> found it Grum
[14:21] <Grum> Miclee: i don't see why 12 bits for blockids makes any sense
[14:21] <ShaRose> [2012-02-03 12:13:01] <jeb> GUIpsp: we offered optifine 10 grand for his mod
[14:21] <Risugami> multiple biomes stacked
[14:22] <Miclee> Grum: Jeb already started to implement it.
[14:22] <Miclee> He said it would be in 1.2 but never finished it. >_>
[14:22] <Grum> Miclee: not visible in the history
[14:22] <Miclee> Don't ask me, it's jeb's logic.
[14:22] <Grum> and they used svn
[14:22] <ShaRose> Miclee he said a lot of stuff would be in 1.2
[14:22] <Grum> so erm ...
[14:22] <TehKrush> http://i.imgur.com/t2OEj.jpg
[14:22] <crow> http://reddit.com/r/funny/comments/rxwfq
[14:22] <JabJabJab> Hey Risugami, did you ever look at my finished robot hand?
[14:22] <GenuineSounds> only git.
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[14:22] <ShaRose> including sprite sheets and 4096 IDs
[14:22] <Miclee> Grum: Don't blame me, I'm bringing up promises made by Mojang. :S
[14:22] <GenuineSounds> git only for me buddies.
[14:22] <Grum> Miclee: yeah they promise too much
[14:22] <Grum> its tiresome
[14:22] == t4nk627 [webchat@71-12-204-224.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit]
[14:22] <GenuineSounds> Distributed > Central
[14:22] <Risugami> sprite sheets is supposely being worked on
[14:23] <JabJabJab> lol ^
[14:23] <Grum> Risugami: its not
[14:23] <JabJabJab> I already made sprite sheets
[14:23] <JabJabJab> a long time ago
[14:23] <Miclee> Risugami: Except jeb would be smarter just coming on here and asking someone from my team for it, or JabJabJab, or any of the other 50 people who did it already.
[14:23] <Miclee> :P
[14:23] <GenuineSounds> JabJabJab, No one likes a bragger.
[14:23] <GenuineSounds> :P
[14:23] <Risugami> jeb said he was working with someone
[14:23] <JabJabJab> JabJabJab, no one likes a...
[14:23] <Grum> yes that is true Risugami
[14:23] <JabJabJab> Yeah :)
[14:23] <Grum> yet he isn't working on it
[14:23] <GaryCXJk> To be honest, I'm not easily impressed by beautiful women, but Olivia Wilde has a strong jaw line.
[14:23] <GaryCXJk> Fucking hot.
[14:23] <JabJabJab> Risugami, you saw my hand though right?
[14:23] <Kattmatu> GaryCXJk: Dude, that's not hot
[14:23] == Sodisna [~Azu2@2001:0:4137:9e76:34dc:26b5:9d3f:c329] has quit [Ping timeout: 195 seconds]
[14:23] <Risugami> yea
[14:24] <JabJabJab> ahh k :)
[14:24] <JabJabJab> You saw the finished version?
[14:24] <Miclee> Grum: So how do you, as a Mojang employee, hope to support the modding community outside of the API?
[14:24] <Didz> GenuineSounds, no love for Mercurial? :(
[14:24] <GaryCXJk> Kattmatu, yes, yes it is.
[14:24] <WackoMcGoose> Grum: I made this happen http://dl.dropbox.com/u/52541782/Minecraft/screencaps/2012-04-07_12.40.18.png and it didn't murdalize my framerate at all (granted, that's in Eclipse which manages memusage a lot better than the MC client), but it proves polycount isn't Minecraft's performance problem.
[14:24] <Kattmatu> GaryCXJk: Looks disgusting
[14:24] <ShaRose> Grum / Miclee / anyone else interested http://pastebin.com/CziCqXgE
[14:24] <GaryCXJk> That's why Emily Deschanel is hot.
[14:24] <Grum> Miclee: i *personally* don't think there should be any support beyond an api given that api is actually good enough
[14:25] <Didz> GaryCXJk, Shania Twain has a better jawline but she's ancient
[14:25] <TehKrush> Miclee: By teaming up with EA and making the mod API cost money and charging users every time the mods are downloaded.
[14:25] <Risugami> WackoMcGoose, did the same in shelf mod
[14:25] <JabJabJab> ^ lol
[14:25] <[twisti]> WackoMcGoose: what am i looking at ?
[14:25] <JabJabJab> !anagrams Modding API
[14:25] <Miclee> Grum: There's a lot more to a modding community than just an API. :|
[14:25] <crow> Modding API - I'M AN ODD PIG
[14:25] <WackoMcGoose> 3D *item* renders.
[14:25] <Miclee> rofl
[14:25] <Risugami> ... not bad
[14:25] <Miclee> JabJabJab: That's great.
[14:25] <Grum> Miclee: such as? you should be able to do like ~95% of your modding using an api
[14:25] <WackoMcGoose> They're rendered as billboards normally, but I made them polygonized (like in-hand render) and they spin too :D
[14:25] <Grum> what else would you want/need?
[14:25] <[twisti]> are items usually not rendered in 3d ?
[14:25] <Miclee> Grum: Actual official places to distribute the mod.
[14:26] <Risugami> btw Grum, why is the 3D item render method private?
[14:26] <Miclee> Don't say the MCF.
[14:26] <Miclee> Those are a piece of crap.
[14:26] <GenuineSounds> Didz, I've never really used it except for updating a project that I had downloaded.
[14:26] <GenuineSounds> and that was EASY
[14:26] <Grum> Risugami: bad code? :D
[14:26] <Kattmatu> WackoMcGoose: aaand..?
[14:26] <Grum> Miclee: yes obviously that needs to be created
[14:26] <ShaRose> Grum did you read that log?
[14:26] <ShaRose> :P
[14:26] <Grum> ShaRose: i did; still surprised :P
[14:26] <TehKrush> Miclee: don't start them on that, they will use Curse if you mention it.
[14:26] <TehKrush> best to leave that subject alone unfortunately
[14:26] <WackoMcGoose> Kattmatu: and what? It's just a bit of graphics fluff for EvilMinecraft.
[14:26] <Grum> i can even understand why the guy behind optifine turned it down
[14:27] <Kattmatu> FLUFF
[14:27] <GaryCXJk> Shania Twain is still hot.
[14:27] <ShaRose> yeah
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[14:27] <Miclee> If I were the optifine guy I would've pushed for $20k
[14:27] <Grum> so why hasnt anyone made a diff between normal MC and optifine?
[14:27] <WackoMcGoose> Kattmatu: Don't worry, there'll be an option to turn off all the high-poly things at once and reset them back to vanilla renders.
[14:28] <ShaRose> Grum why would we :P
[14:28] <Miclee> Grum: Because why would we?
[14:28] <Kattmatu> FL UFF
[14:28]  * Samantha is blown away by force of Kattmatu's statement
[14:28] <Kattmatu> WackoMcGoose: I don't plan on playing it
[14:28] <Grum> why not? see what it adds?
[14:28] <Miclee> Why?
[14:28] <GenuineSounds> I've seen some of the changes they really don't DO all that much, just a LOT of little things you know?
[14:28] <WackoMcGoose> Miclee: Besides that we need to make a compatibility patch before official EVMC 0.666 release...
[14:28] <JabJabJab> !anagrams optifine
[14:28] <Miclee> Optifine is optifine, why would we recreate it if it exists already?
[14:28] <crow> optifine - IN IF POET
[14:28] <ShaRose> Grum if we do diffs of stuff will you add it? if not there's little to no point to do it
[14:28] == redstonehelper [~redstoneh@stgt-4d025bd5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: quit]
[14:28] <Miclee> WackoMcGoose: Except that's fairly simple. :P
[14:28] <GenuineSounds> ShaRose, lol
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[14:29] <Grum> ShaRose: probably not the right person to do ogl stuff :p
[14:29] <WackoMcGoose> I know, just saying there IS a reason for diffing OptiFine.
[14:29] <GaryCXJk> Hold those thoughts.
[14:29] <Miclee> WackoMcGoose: Not really, we don't need all the class diffs.
[14:29] <Miclee> Only some.
[14:29] <GaryCXJk> Puss in Boots.
[14:29] <xTwilight> Interesting how CustomStuff first nuked Minecraft Mods, now Flan's 'mod
[14:29] <WackoMcGoose> true
[14:29] == mnewton1 [~mnewton1@216.53.141.3] has quit [Quit: mnewton1]
[14:29] <xTwilight> 'mod' is nuking Minecraft Mods*
[14:29] <xTwilight> <_<
[14:30] <WackoMcGoose> xTwilight: Dafuq is CustomStuff?
[14:30] <Risugami> another thing. why was the world height fields completely destroyed and replaced with horrible code?
[14:30] <Flan> What?
[14:30] <TehKrush> xales: what's customstuff
[14:30] <TehKrush> oops
[14:30] <Didz> Grum, is there anyone at Mojang that *can* do proper OpenGL stuff?
[14:30] <Miclee> Risugami: Is it because jeb went to 256 max height?
[14:30] <WackoMcGoose> ^
[14:30] == Vairean [~kernymi@175.144.204.101] has joined #risucraft
[14:30] <TehKrush> xTwilight: wat
[14:30] <Miclee> Didz: Supposedly not.
[14:30] <WackoMcGoose> What Didz said.
[14:30] == DigiDuncan [~digidunca@cpe-67-240-105-3.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit []
[14:30] <xTwilight> CustomStuff, a mod similar to Flan's mods, which people can use to make so called "mods" out of text files.
[14:30] <TehKrush> oh
[14:30] <WackoMcGoose> LOL
[14:30] <Risugami> all jeb had to do was make a 7 into an 8
[14:30] <xTwilight> http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1143482-124-mafia-ii-pack-v-12-for-flans-mods/
[14:30] <crow> mcforum title: [1.2.4] Mafia II Pack v. 1.2 for Flan's Mods - Minecraft Forum
[14:30] <JabJabJab> Listen, at this point in the game, even if a API is made, the fact remains that a lot of mods popular now are going to be using things not supported by the API, SO if mojang wants to remain in the cool place with it's entire community, it has to keep the gray line good as far as not dissing and going against mods not using the API.
[14:31] <ShaRose> this is where ultramoogleman would come in and start laughing and laughing and laughing
[14:31] <TehKrush> so uh........ makeMyItem?
[14:31] <GenuineSounds> Didz, You aren't giving thenm enough credit, there are at least some things they did fine.
[14:31] == md_5|away has changed nick to md_5
[14:31] <TehKrush> LET'S START A WITCH HUNT
[14:31] <Grum> Didz: i cant at least -- not sure for the rest
[14:31] <TehKrush> MAKEMYITEM SHALL DIE... again
[14:31] <Miclee> Yes, I'm a bit confused, Grum. What happens to us mods who change vanilla things that the API likely won't support?
[14:31] <xTwilight> I say, Flan hunt!
[14:31] <GUIpsp> !mmt
[14:31] <Didz> GenuineSounds, I was just asking
[14:31] <crow> http://sprunge.us/HEce
[14:31] <Grum> Miclee: like what?
[14:31] <Grum> there will always be things that you cannot do with an api no matter how badly you wan it
[14:31] == Linkshot [~luminoit@CPE001346ac69d9-CM000a739c0976.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 204 seconds]
[14:31] <TehKrush> Flan: WHY
[14:31] <WackoMcGoose> Grum: We've changed at least 10% of the base classes. There's no way an API could allow access to EVERYTHING.
[14:31] <TehKrush> I loved you :(
[14:31] <Miclee> Grum: I don't need a specific example, there are likely many examples.
[14:32] <JabJabJab> Miclee, the mods now that wont support the API should not be attacked if mojang wants to stay in good grounds with it's community
[14:32] <Kattmatu> xTwilight: Isn't that part of his mod..?
[14:32] <Miclee> I merely want to know what will happen, Grum.
[14:32] <Grum> Miclee: i assume MCP will exist
[14:32] <xTwilight> Kattmatu: No
[14:32] <Miclee> Will we be allowed to distribute it through the official means, Grum?
[14:32] <Grum> or whatever other framework to fill that void
[14:32] <GUIpsp> Grum: will i be able to add a dancing taco that spawns everytime you mine a gold block with a diamond pickaxe?
[14:32] <Kattmatu> xTwilight: Pretty sure it is
[14:32] <Grum> Miclee: not likely
[14:32] <GenuineSounds> Grum, Just give me tick hooks and I'll do the rest ;)
[14:32] <Miclee> Grum: So that's just shutting off half of the community, there. >_>
[14:32] <Grum> GUIpsp: i dont see why not
[14:32] <xTwilight> Kattmatu: The link I posted, is a "content pack" to Flan's mods.
[14:32] <xTwilight> <_<
[14:32] <Grum> Miclee: why? the whole point is that stuff should be doable with the API
[14:32] <Fligabob> Grum: SO you're making an API, which will still require the current modding techniques...
[14:33] <Didz> As far as I can see it the Modding API will only lower the bar for newbie programmers to enter the scene, whilst the "old school" mods can still mess about with the internals without having to go through a limited API
[14:33] <Grum> tbh, i'm not going to be happy with the api unless you can recreate the game itself with it
[14:33] <Flan> TehKrush : All my guns were so similar apart from different icons and skins and some values, so I though why not
[14:33] <Kattmatu> xTwilight: I believe he has implemented a way to create planes and other stuff through text files
[14:33] <[twisti]> this is the bukkit problem all over again
[14:33] <Miclee> Grum: But you just said tha API won't support everything.
[14:33] <Miclee> the*
[14:33] <Grum> Miclee: ofc
[14:33] <[twisti]> the stuff you need isnt getting added, but youre also not allowed to hand out forks/cb mods
[14:33] <Miclee> >_>
[14:33] <Grum> so how would you 'support' anything that goes beyond an api?
[14:33] <InsanityBringer> maybe not vanilla features
[14:33] <xTwilight> Kattmatu: Yep, and it's NOT legal to post such in Minecraft Mods.
[14:33] <Miclee> You just contradicted yourself, Grum.
[14:33] <Miclee> You said you want it to support everything but it won't.
[14:33] <xTwilight> People can't read so, they just post it anyway.
[14:33] <Kattmatu> xTwilight: Who cares about mcf anyway
[14:34] <Kattmatu> It's a shithole
[14:34] <Kattmatu> Full of cunts
[14:34] <Grum> Miclee: no, i said i wanted the api to be good enough to recreate the vanilla experience with it
[14:34] <GUIpsp> Grum: and if you look at the taco for more than 10 seconds without having a cat tamed and a leather helmet it applies a custom potion effect and a custom enchantment into you currently held item
[14:34] <Flan> I'd get my own site to keep all the conent packs tidy, but I dont have the time for that right now
[14:34] <GUIpsp> because that totally makes sense.
[14:34] <WackoMcGoose> Grum, just make ModLoader and a few other of the existing APIs official, make the code easier to understand (no more RenderBlocks-level spaghetti code please), and we'll take care of the rest.
[14:34] == neersighted [bouncer@not.so.neersighted.co.cc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[14:34] <Miclee> Grum: There's a difference between 'vanilla experience' and 'mod experience'
[14:34] <Grum> GUIpsp: i think that should be possible
[14:34]  * Risugami just hopes nobody at mojang learns how to use java security
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[14:34] <Grum> Risugami: game will be sandboxed
[14:34] <xTwilight> Risugami: That's kinda evil
[14:34] <Grum> *fully*
[14:34] <Miclee> The reason people make mods is to get away from the vanilla experience, Grum.
[14:34] <Miclee> If you limit it to that, why bother? :|
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[14:35] <WackoMcGoose> Risugami: They already do. It's called META-INF and it's 110% useless against anyone with WinRAR.
[14:35] <Grum> Miclee: no you dont get it, (no offense) but stuff like redstone should be a 'plugin' you can turn on/off
[14:35] <xTwilight> WackoMcGoose: +1
[14:35] <Miclee> Grum: Yes, but what about large 'total conversion' mods?
[14:35] <Risugami> I mean preventing access to reflection
[14:35] <GaryCXJk> Miclee strikes a big point.
[14:35] <Miclee> Are you guys just going to let those die off? :|
[14:35] <Grum> Miclee: how can you properly support that?
[14:35] <xTwilight> Risugami: Someone would just crack it up and allow reflection. <_<
[14:35] <Miclee> Making over a year of work enitrely pointless?
[14:35] == damunzysr [~damunzy@c-68-46-12-60.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Shave me Jebus, shave me!]
[14:35] <Kattmatu> pig: ^
[14:35] <GaryCXJk> The biggest selling point of a game is not its moddability, but its degree of moddability.
[14:35] <Kattmatu> for you
[14:36] <Grum> GaryCXJk: and that is why making any modability will take a lot of time
[14:36] <Miclee> Grum: EvilMinecraft is essentially a total conversion(well, it will be when its completed fully).
[14:36] <GaryCXJk> The less you can customize, the less popular a game is to mod.
[14:36] <GenuineSounds> So does anyone want to actually help me get through this list of like 60 spells and some progress with me?
[14:36] <damunzy> no?
[14:36] <GUIpsp> Grum: and the potion effect applies a custom gl operation and quits you to title screen after 2 sweconds?
[14:36] <Miclee> Grum: So what will happen to it when the API rolls around and the API doesn't support much that it does?
[14:36] <GenuineSounds> and by progress I mean sex.
[14:36] <Grum> Miclee: in my ideal world minecraft just becomes a stupid 'voxel engine'
[14:36] <damunzy> oh, yes then!
[14:36] <Miclee> Grum: You aren't answering the question.
[14:36] <Miclee> Answer it.
[14:36] <Miclee> Stop dodging it.
[14:36] <GenuineSounds> damunzy, YES!
[14:36] <GUIpsp> GenuineSounds: sure
[14:37] <Grum> Miclee: then the api needs to be improved?
[14:37] <GenuineSounds> http://genuine.titanpad.com/1
[14:37] <damunzy> awesome sauce....speaking of which ;)
[14:37] <Miclee> Grum: Why not just fully open source the game, then? >_>
[14:37] == Mouzi [~Mouzi@host-109-204-128-33.tp-fne.tampereenpuhelin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 202 seconds]
[14:37] <Didz> Quake III.
[14:37]  * WackoMcGoose falls out of chair
[14:37] <Grum> Miclee: because of IP?
[14:37] <Kattmatu> Or just scrap the API and continue with how it is
[14:37] <Didz> best game ever to mod
[14:37] <Miclee> Grum: Not if you get the people using the source to sign NDAs and waivers.
[14:37] <damunzy> that doesn't look like a sexy good time! :(
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[14:37] <Grum> Miclee: right because then no-one will leak the source
[14:37] <Risugami> just expect the mod api to be the trunk of a long line of api branches
[14:37] <Miclee> Seriously, at this point the API just looks like it's going to kill half of the community, Grum.
[14:38] <Grum> Miclee: why?
[14:38] <WackoMcGoose> How about going with what Notch's original "API" plan was: make the codebase available to anyone that asks and signs the requisite paperwork.
[14:38] <Miclee> Grum: Based on what you said, EvilMinecraft's going to die when the API rolls around due to it not being extensive enough.
[14:38] <Grum> why?
[14:38] <Miclee> I just said why.
[14:38] <WackoMcGoose> ^
[14:38] <Kattmatu> v
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[14:38] <Grum> i just said that imho you should be able to create minecraft with the modapi
[14:38] <Miclee> Grum: Except we all know that's not going to happen.
[14:38] <Grum> because?
[14:38] <Miclee> Unless you guys spend two years on it.
[14:38] <Grum> why?
[14:38] <Miclee> :|
[14:38] <Didz> because it's not a perfect world.
[14:39] <Grum> there is not that much in minecraft
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[14:39] <Miclee> Grum: Just rewrite the damn thing to be efficient, then.
[14:39] <Grum> its just spaghetti right now :)
[14:39] <Miclee> If it's that simple.
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[14:39] <Grum> Miclee: yes? that is the plan :)
[14:39] <Risugami> it's not spaghetti
[14:39] <Risugami> terraria is spaghetti
[14:39] <Grum> true, you could eat spaghetti
[14:39] <JabJabJab> lol
[14:39] <Miclee> Oh? So you're actually rewriting it?
[14:39] <TehKrush> can terraria be modded yet?
[14:39] <damunzy> Let's reroll the entire code! Mozilla did that with netscape.....it worked after how many years? :)
[14:39] <JabJabJab> very expensive spaghetty
[14:39] <Grum> Miclee: no
[14:39] <famerdave> TehKrush: yes/No
[14:39] <pig> Kattmatu: hmm? I was afk, you pinged me but its off my list already
[14:39] <Risugami> terraria is made from a big if statement
[14:39] <pig> Log*
[14:39] <Miclee> Grum: Then why say yes? >_>
[14:40] <famerdave> TehKrush: someone has built a BIG mod API….
[14:40] <Grum> because rewriting implies a bigbang implementation
[14:40] <Miclee> Seriously, Grum, can you just straight-up answer questions instead of being confusing as all fuck?
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[14:40] <Risugami> somebody made a terraria launcher with modding
[14:40] <famerdave> Grum: Are you on the Mojang team? If so - please tell them to fix the slime AI.
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[14:40] <Grum> famerdave: yes
[14:40] <Miclee> Dinnerbone wake up. D:
[14:40] <Grum> you mean the desync of positions vs what you see?
[14:41] <turol> Grum: will the api require configuring block ids like current mods?
[14:41] <GaryCXJk> Sorry if I'm not talking, I give more fucks to Puss in Boots than this.
[14:41] <turol> or will it be automatic?
[14:41] <Grum> turol: shouldnt, should be automatic
[14:41] <Grum> just say you want to register a block .. done
[14:41] <Risugami> I think it's too early to say turol
[14:41] <turol> saved with the world or globally?
[14:41] <Grum> world obviously
[14:41] <turol> awesome
[14:41] <WackoMcGoose> How I feel right now: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/112/480/OpoQQ.jpg?1302279568
[14:41] <Miclee> .tw Fligabob
[14:41] <crow> Miclee: 2012-04-07 21:33:42 fligabob: @Dinnerbone May I suggest your come onto #risucraft on EsperNet. Grum is making you all look like idiots...
[14:41] <Miclee> ^^^THIS
[14:41] <Grum> really, you can cover like 50% of all mods if you just add: items, blocks, material, entities etc
[14:42] <turol> what are you using as unique block identifier? classname?
[14:42] <WackoMcGoose> What Miclee posted.
[14:42] <Miclee> Grum: But you don't cover the total conversions or large mods.
[14:42] <Didz> hopefully world files will store a mapping of block names for mods with their respected block IDs that are used in that world
[14:42] <turol> what about several mods which want to add the same kind of ore?
[14:42] <JabJabJab> !anagrams minecraft.net
[14:42] <Grum> Miclee: so what would those large mods be doing that you cannot do with an api?
[14:42] <crow> minecraft.net - FAT INCREMENT - EMINENT CRAFT
[14:42] <Didz> instead of *global* block ID configs
[14:42] <Didz> which is ridiculous
[14:42] <Miclee> Grum: Basically changing the core game itself!
[14:42] <Grum> turol: they will possible collide
[14:42] <Risugami> I'd like a mapping, but we need to kill the static aspect of items/blocks first
[14:42] <Grum> Miclee: like WHAT?
[14:42] <Miclee> Block breaking, for one.
[14:42] <Grum> Risugami: planning to do so
[14:42] <Grum> Miclee; blockbreaking?
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[14:42] <JabJabJab> !anagrams bullshit
[14:42] <crow> bullshit - STILL HUB
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[14:43] <Miclee> Grum: Yes, block breaking.
[14:43] <GUIpsp> Grum: model scaling, bb editing, model creating
[14:43] <SmallDeadGuy> Back
[14:43] <GUIpsp> model editing too
[14:43] <SmallDeadGuy> Oh look, still here :(
[14:43] <Grum> GUIpsp: should all be done sanely
[14:43] <Miclee> So that blocks store their damage values, and even change model based on that!
[14:43] <WackoMcGoose> I'm still mad that you guys didn't add Infinite Spritesheets along with the 4096 blockIDs, and that we had to do a lot of fixing just to make the ID range work.
[14:43] <GUIpsp> drop editing
[14:43] <Grum> Miclee: you can do that right now? O.o
[14:43] <Miclee> Grum: Yes.
[14:43] <Miclee> We can do anything right now.
[14:43] <Miclee> We have player races, too.
[14:43] <GUIpsp> ^
[14:43] <WackoMcGoose> ^^^
[14:43] <Kattmatu> vv
[14:43] <Miclee> A halfling, even, that fits in 1-block-tall spaces.
[14:43] <Miclee> It's awesome.
[14:43] <Samantha> ~%percent*$*~$*#@£%percent*$^
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[14:43] <Grum> which is nothing more than metadata on an entity
[14:43] <Grum> and female entities :p
[14:44] <WackoMcGoose> Grum: It's not metadata, it's a whole new byte array specifically for blockbreak.
[14:44] <WackoMcGoose> We also changed traditional metadata from nibbles to full bytes :P
[14:44] <Grum> WackoMcGoose: you can trivially do that right now
[14:44] <Risugami> anybody add breeding to villagers, like animals?
[14:44] <Grum> just the displaying is slightly harder to do :)
[14:44] <Grum> WackoMcGoose: imho data/metadata should merge into a single int
[14:45] <Kattmatu> Risugami: And genetics
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[14:45] <Grum> 32bits is MOOORRRE than enough for anyone
[14:45] <Kattmatu> bitches love dem chromosomes
[14:45] <Didz> IPv4 :D
[14:45] <Miclee> Grum: So why were you against 4096 block ids beig MOOOORE than enough for anyone?
[14:45] <WackoMcGoose> Here, have an example of my block-modeling ability: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/52541782/Minecraft/screencaps/2012-03-30_12.48.26.png
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[14:45] <Grum> Miclee: i just said that 12bits is 'weird'
[14:45] <Grum> i think it should be more
[14:45] <Grum> 12bits aligns with nothing
[14:45] <Miclee> Grum: Point being?
[14:45] <Miclee> Why would you require it to?
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[14:46] <Grum> for efficient storage?
[14:46] <Didz> efficiency
[14:46] <Grum> god you are the one crying about performance :D
[14:46] <Grum> 12bits is about the worst size you can give it
[14:46] <WackoMcGoose> Grum: It's 16 bits. I just said we changed regular metadata to fullbytes, plus a second byte array for the blockbreak.
[14:46] <Miclee> WackoMcGoose: We're talking about block ids
[14:46] <Grum> so you have 32bytes of data now not WackoMcGoose?
[14:46] <Didz> CPUs are happy when data types are aligned to boundaries
[14:46] <WackoMcGoose> oh
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[14:46] <Miclee> Grum: What would be better, than?
[14:46] <Risugami> the whole 4096 thing seems expensive
[14:46] <famerdave> TehKrush: It's called TConfig… thats the Modding API type thing for Terraria
[14:46] <Grum> it is
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[14:47] <Grum> what is it right now per block? it was 8bits for type; 4 for meta
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[14:47] <Grum> now it is supposed to be 12 and?
[14:47] <Grum> 8 ?
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[14:47] <Risugami> 8, and 4, and 4
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[14:48] <Risugami> that's a short right there
[14:48] <Grum> except that its stored as 8 + 4 + 4
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[14:48] <Grum> or .. hehe
[14:48] <Grum> not even sure right now; havent looked at that code
[14:48] <Samantha> Omg.
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[14:48] <Risugami> easier via binary math in a single array
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[14:48] <creatorfromhell> Hi
[14:48] <WackoMcGoose> Fucking nibblebytes how do they work? :P
[14:49] <Grum> its just half-bytes (so 4 bits)
[14:49] <Miclee> Anyways, halflingfun: http://i.imgur.com/7fM3a.png
[14:49] <Miclee> (having a chicken look down at you is just odd)
[14:49]  * WackoMcGoose was being sarcastic, hence the ":P"
[14:49] <Kattmatu> Miclee: You make me jelly
[14:49] <Grum> Miclee: sofar you havent mentioned anything that shouldn't be possible btw
[14:49] <Grum> given that stuff changes enough :P
[14:50] <Grum> there will always be tradeoffs for performance/size/memory etc
[14:50] <Miclee> Well I don't know how extensive the API will be, so I can't really tell you what your API won't support.
[14:50] <Miclee> We'll only know when you make it.
[14:50] <Fligabob> Grum, so with the mod API, you can completely change about any class, and it'll still be supported?
[14:50] <Risugami> (id & 0xFFF) | ((data & 0xF) << 12)
[14:50] <Grum> yet you say that it wont be good enough before you tell anyone what you need :)
[14:50] <Miclee> Grum: As I sense it won't be good enough.
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[14:51] <Grum> Miclee: because no-one has made something good enough?
[14:51] <Miclee> By the time you guys get the API out, we'll probably have modified near enough 50% of the classes, Grum.
[14:51] <Miclee> Or more, even.
[14:51] <creatorfromhell> New wiki page coming dealing with Minecraft modding. Community editing of course is welcome. http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Modding
[14:51] <Grum> i dont see why you would need to modify any of the classes :/
[14:51] <Fligabob> Seriously...
[14:51] <Miclee> Grum: As we're modifying things...
[14:51] <Miclee> >_>
[14:51] <Miclee> How else do you expect us to mod?
[14:51] <Grum> a proper system will allow you to change things without having to change files O.o
[14:52] <Fligabob> You don't get why people who are making modifications need to modify classes?
[14:52] <Miclee> Yes, there isn't a proper official system, clearly.
[14:52] <Miclee> THAT'S WHY WE DO THIS.
[14:52] <Kattmatu> Grum: Do it Lua style!
[14:52] <creatorfromhell> Lol
[14:52] <Grum> Miclee: yes and that doesnt make it 'the best way' :D
[14:52] <Miclee> Grum: There's not really any other way, for us.
[14:52] <Miclee> So don't talk like that.
[14:52] <Grum> and that is why there should be a proper api for it!
[14:52] <Risugami> would be so much easier if this wasn't java
[14:52] <Miclee> Yes, but you didn't make a proper API yet. >_>
[14:52] <Grum> Risugami: yes and no
[14:52] <famerdave> Gosh! Why is the world is the Pig Zombie AI still derpy, Grum: please get it fixed in 1.3. My adventure map is kinda stupid with out it.
[14:52] <Grum> would be nice if it would be a more flexible language
[14:53] <Kattmatu> Like Brainfuck
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[14:53] <Risugami> like in C++, you write your own custom system and it works for anything
[14:53] <Grum> or befudge
[14:53] <Grum> yeah but then there would be no modding at all
[14:53] <Grum> until there is some sort of an api
[14:53] <Miclee> If it were C++, Notch would've made an API in the early days.
[14:53] <Risugami> at least in C# we get pointers. heh
[14:54] <SmallDeadGuy> Risugami: :P
[14:54] <Grum> Miclee: yeah and that would have been super useful; see how the code looks right now O.o
[14:54] <Kattmatu> SmallDeadGuy has C# on pinglist
[14:54] <SmallDeadGuy> I wonder how many people in here enjoy c#
[14:54] <Miclee> Grum: Make sure you also add support for changing the main menu completely in your API.
[14:54] <SmallDeadGuy> Kattmatu: No not quite
[14:54] <Didz> GMod has a very nice API, and people have made really awesome addons for it; but it still has a system to load arbitrary executable DLLs
[14:54] <Miclee> We changed it completely.
[14:54] <Risugami> wonder how well minecraft would fare on torque
[14:54] <Grum> Miclee: probably wont happen
[14:54] <Risugami> it's bytecode
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[14:55] <Miclee> Grum: Well there you go, one thing that's unsupported that will cause EvilMinecraft to die.
[14:55] <Miclee> You asked for one, there's one.
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[14:55] <Miclee> That'll mess with the Aether, too.
[14:55] <Grum> Miclee: that makes no sense, skinning it you can already do that
[14:55] <Kattmatu> ...
[14:55] <Miclee> Grum: We aren't just skinning it. Want a screenshot?
[14:55] <Grum> but the game still has to be minecraft in principle, wouldn't make much sense for Mojang otherwise? :/
[14:56] <WackoMcGoose> Grum: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/52541782/Minecraft/screencaps/2012-04-07_12.03.07.png
[14:56] <Miclee> Grum: http://i.imgur.com/rxfzw.png
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[14:56] <Miclee> (ironic yellowtext is ironic, lulz)
[14:56] <Risugami> signs really need antialias
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[14:56] <Miclee> Risugami: I know, that'll happen in the future.
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[14:57] <ShaRose> hmm
[14:57] <ShaRose> I wonder what's faster for lookup time. An array, or a switch statement.
[14:57] <Kattmatu> nn
[14:58] <Grum> Miclee: i think that should be doable tbh :D
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[14:58] <Grum> ShaRose: switch
[14:58] <Miclee> Grum: But you just said it wouldn't be.
[14:58] <WackoMcGoose> ^
[14:58] <Kattmatu> Grum: Well yeah, you can replace the gui with another gui, but still
[14:58] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: A very good addition to the API: custom dimension support
[14:58] <Risugami> switches are just if statements with benefits
[14:58] <Miclee> And biomes, too, SmallDeadGuy.
[14:58] <Didz> if it isn't doable, you don't need to use the API
[14:58] <ShaRose> Grum does it matter on the table size though is what I was thinking
[14:58] <Miclee> Didz: Then we don't have any official backing for distribution.
[14:58] <ShaRose> I'm doing up that idea and I plan on doing up class generation as a diff engine
[14:58] <Grum> ShaRose: depends how much you want to switch on yeah :P
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[14:59] <WackoMcGoose> Risugami: All of Minecraft would be good with antialias, long as it's toggleable (like in OptiFine). I can't even get above 30fps in TF2 if AA is enabled.
[14:59] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: yeah ofc
[14:59] <Didz> Miclee, ah
[14:59] <Risugami> could use a switch statement in renderblocks...
[14:59] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: Also I'm fed up of arguing now, can't convince a normal mojang dev let alone an ex-bukkit one :/
[14:59] <ShaRose> Grum was debating on "if it's under 20 IDs to switch use switch, otherwise just using an array
[14:59] <Grum> Miclee: doesnt mean i dont think it should be added, but if you think from a mojangs pov what is the benefit?
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[14:59] <Miclee> Grum: Mod support.
[14:59] <Miclee> That's the purpose of the API.
[15:00] <Risugami> not even sure if Notch understands switch
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[15:00] <Grum> Risugami: yeah erm not used anywhere :p
[15:00] <Risugami> never see them
[15:00] <Grum> seems like he coded it for 1.1
[15:00] <Miclee> Grum: The benefit of adding that means EvilMinecraft lives on, which means a plethora of new content of players in a mod.
[15:00] <SmallDeadGuy> Risugami: :P I think that could be the decompilers
[15:00] <ShaRose> SmallDeadGuy nope
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[15:00] <Miclee> Which in turn can lead to people continuing playing, getting interested in the brand, etc.
[15:00] <Grum> Miclee: something like that can live on without modifying the first screen o.O
[15:00] <Miclee> Which in turn, Grum, leads to money.
[15:01] <Grum> you are making it a bit drastic right now Miclee :D
[15:01] <Miclee> Grum: You asked for how it benefits Mojang.
[15:01] <Miclee> I just gave you reasons.
[15:01] <Fligabob> Grum: Here's a suggestion. Go for Notch's original API idea. You release the source to people who sign a waver, they modify it, and submit the source to Mojang to an official mod store or something. You then, in game, merge conflicting files, and compile them into the game. That way, people can do anything they want to the game without limitation.
[15:01] <Risugami> it's a shame switches in java are limited to ints
[15:01] <Miclee> ^@Fligabob
[15:01] <Grum> Fligabob: 'releasing source' will not do any good at all :/
[15:01] <Grum> Risugami: strings in 1.7! ;D
[15:01] <Miclee> Grum: >>>SIGN WAIVERS + NDA
[15:01] <Miclee> Do you not know what an NDA is?
[15:01] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: Just being able to add/move/modify buttons and other elements would be nice.
[15:02] <Risugami> oh really? better
[15:02] <Grum> (also enums btw)
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[15:02] <Miclee> And Grum, each copy of the source will have a signed certificate.
[15:02] <Grum> but notch uses no enums! :D
[15:02] <Miclee> If it leaks, it's not a big deal either as it's java anyways.
[15:02] <Risugami> enums are treated like ints anyways
[15:02] <Grum> it is a big deal
[15:02] <Miclee> The people who get the leaked version can't submit their mods officially, Grum.
[15:02] <Grum> you cannot ever go back from leaked source
[15:02] <Miclee> Grum: The Minecraft source is basically out there, already.
[15:02] <Fligabob> You release pre-releases without protection. People can just run them straight from the jar.
[15:02] <ShaRose> what Grum said
[15:02] <Grum> Miclee: so why need more?
[15:02] <ShaRose> er
[15:02] <Risugami> can we get less enums Grum?
[15:02] <ShaRose> Miclee said
[15:03] <ShaRose> :P
[15:03] <Miclee> Grum: As you want it to be official.
[15:03] <WackoMcGoose> Grum: I already see a dozen enum classes, and that's just in vanilla.
[15:03] <Fligabob> What Miclee said
[15:03] <Risugami> we can't exactly extend from those
[15:03] <ShaRose> Grum what is the downside, to mojang, for leaked source code
[15:03] <Grum> Risugami: we need more enums BUT they should implement an interface and be registered somewhere
[15:03] <Miclee> I feel like I'm talking to someone who doesn't understand the business side of game development at all. Whar is Carl? D:
[15:03] <Miclee> I should just e-mail Carl about all of this.
[15:03] <Miclee> ^@ShaRose
[15:03] <Grum> so a custom thing can implement the interface and then register it
[15:03] <Grum> ShaRose: IP ?
[15:04] <ShaRose> Grum what IP
[15:04] <Risugami> I'll accept an interface
[15:04] <ShaRose> don't we already have
[15:04] <Grum> Risugami: yeah lol me too, none of those sofar :(
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[15:04] <ShaRose> we know how everything in the game works
[15:04] <armed> ShaRose: It's up to Jeb and others
[15:04] <Miclee> Grum: We already have everything, pretty much, it's just not 'official' :|
[15:04] <Didz> releasing source does not affect Mojang's Intellectual Property stance whatsoever
[15:04] <Miclee> Fuckit
[15:04] <Miclee> I'll just e-mail Carl
[15:04] <Miclee> This is useless.
[15:04] <Didz> Fukkit :D
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[15:04] <Miclee> Didz: Indeed.
[15:04] <armed> If they did it in a controlled fashion, Didz is right
[15:04] <Grum> better; give the mail you are sending to carl to me and i'll make him read it
[15:04] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: Why would releasing the source be bad? It'd be good because: more understandable for us, little hassle in updating, no need for losing information in decompiling, no hassle in reobfuscating, allows us to debug errors from the community better, etc. I don't accept it's bad until you have a counter for ALL of those reasons
[15:04] <Risugami> the problem with enums is that we can't add onto them
[15:05] <Miclee> Grum: No, I can e-mail him myself.
[15:05] <Miclee> I do so very often.
[15:05] <Risugami> big problem with tool mods
[15:05] <ShaRose> Miclee bcc
[15:05] <Grum> Miclee: good luck reaching him :)
[15:05] <armed> And yeah we have the source
[15:05] <Miclee> I share e-mails with him every couple of weeks, Grum. >_>
[15:05] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: the source is not a holy grail
[15:05] <WackoMcGoose> If anything, releasing source in a controlled way would make modding EASIER. Right now with MCP, there's still a fair amount of obfuscated method names that no one knows what they do.
[15:05] <Grum> Miclee: good :)
[15:05] <Shadow386> Miclee, you know he's just going to tell Carl to ignore you right?
[15:05] <ShaRose> Grum it's not, it's so we could do that push changes thing earlier :V
[15:05] <armed> MCP does a darn good job of decompiling and deobfuscating it into a usable form
[15:05] <Grum> Shadow386: why?
[15:05] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: No but it you're making as hard to get as one >_>
[15:05] <Miclee> Shadow386: And if he does that it just proves Mojang doesn't care for the community at all. :P
[15:05] <ShaRose> Miclee BCC it to carl, grum, jerb, etc etc
[15:06] <Shadow386> Why else would you want him to email you instead of Carl? To "be sure" it gets to him?
[15:06] <ShaRose> last time I emailed jerb I got ignored for like 2 weeks
[15:06] <Miclee> ShaRose: No, just sending to Carl.
[15:06] <Shadow386> Why not just let him email then?
[15:06] <SmallDeadGuy> Also you're avoiding the question, give me a fuck straight answer Grum
[15:06] <Samantha> You know SmallDeadGuy, avoiding the question is much like making love to a beautiful woman
[15:06] <Samantha> You've got to sigh the soft
[15:06] <Samantha> spot the private
[15:06] <ShaRose> then I bcc'd to everyone and got an answer in an hour
[15:06] <Samantha> and finally afford the frog.
[15:06] <ShaRose> :V
[15:06] <WackoMcGoose> armed: But it's not 100% obfuscated, more like 95%. Most of it's there, but there's some methods that are still named "func_12345_asdf" and have no javadoc.
[15:06] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: to what? why source is bad?
[15:06] <Grum> because its not better than what you are seeing right now
[15:06] <Grum> its not more clear
[15:06] <WackoMcGoose> *deobfuscated
[15:06] <Grum> stop pretending it is; we thought the same; its not
[15:06] <armed> WackoMcGoose: That's because no one has touched that code yet
[15:06] <ShaRose> Grum we don't CARE if it's more clear
[15:06] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: Why releasing it is bad
[15:06] <Shadow386> Grum: But then you'd have the community help clean it up
[15:06] <ShaRose> you said we couldn't push stuff because we didn't have the source
[15:06] <Grum> riiiight and that will work shadow
[15:06] <Shadow386> Release shit code, get help, fix it up
[15:07] <WackoMcGoose> ^
[15:07] <ShaRose> if we have the sourse WE CAN HELP CLEAN IT UP.
[15:07] <Shadow386> You'd be surprised of how many people in here WANT to help
[15:07]  * Searge leans back in his chair and enjoys some cold soda, watching the discussion from a distance
[15:07] <Risugami> the problem is mainly with obfuscator removing useful stuff
[15:07] <ShaRose> ^
[15:07] <armed> Grum: We don't want it because it's "better than" MCP
[15:07] <Grum> hey i know, used to be one of them
[15:07] <Shadow386> being limited to saying "nope, just some methods" wont help.
[15:07] <Risugami> like exceptions and generics
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[15:07] <SmallDeadGuy> And it even if the source isn't any better, it still removes the hassle of decompiling, reobfuscating and updating to annoying mappings
[15:07] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum ^
[15:07] <Shadow386> Searge, toss one my way?
[15:07] <Grum> there is no reason to reobfuscate :/
[15:07] <ShaRose> Grum I've said I wouldn't mind doing free work on MC if I had the actual source
[15:08] <Miclee> Grum: Have you ever made a Minecraft client mod?
[15:08] <ShaRose> Grum if you want others to use it there is :P
[15:08]  * Searge throws a soda to Shadow386, trying to make it "fun" for him to catch it :)
[15:08] <Grum> Miclee: nope
[15:08] <Miclee> So let me get this straight - we have people who haven't made mods make the API?
[15:08] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: Yes, to make it work with your obfuscated releases, fucktard >_>
[15:08]  * Shadow386 catches it with a NPE
[15:08] <WackoMcGoose> Want some popcorn with that, Searge? I'm going to-- oh shit, forgot that old microwave is old and popcorn fries the internal breakers.
[15:08] <Shadow386> fuck, my hand null'd out
[15:08] <Grum> Miclee: the client is an uber small part of the whole
[15:08] <Miclee> Grum: Not when we're making /client mods/
[15:08] <Grum> its mostly big because of the horrid rendering :D
[15:08] <Grum> Miclee: and that will change
[15:08] <Grum> SP will become local MP
[15:08] <SmallDeadGuy> I'm getting to angry, I'm gonna take my rage out in crow for a sex
[15:09] <ShaRose> NOOOOOOO.
[15:09] <SmallDeadGuy> sec*
[15:09] <Miclee> Grum: And why do I know you guys will find a way to mess that up?
[15:09] <armed> Grum: That won't happen anytime soon.
[15:09] <Didz> the client is 50% of Minecraft from the user perspective, it's a pretty big part.
[15:09] <Grum> armed: we'll see
[15:09] <Risugami> .q add SmallDeadGuy I'm getting to angry, I'm gonna take my rage out in crow for a sex
[15:09] <crow> Risugami: quote added.
[15:09] <ShaRose> Grum you know as well as I do unless you do that SP as localhost MP thing right you'll fuck over a lot of people.
[15:09] <Grum> ShaRose: why?
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[15:09] <pig> ?tc2
[15:09] <ShaRose> if you literally have to ask that than you shouldn't be thinking of that tbph
[15:09] == Yowshi [~Yoshi@dsl-207-112-126-208.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[15:10] <pig> ?azanor
[15:10] <Grum> if you dont see that that needs to happen there is another problem :)
[15:10] <Risugami> lagggg
[15:10] <Didz> I'm going to flip the table if you actually initiate a socket connection to localhost to make that happen.
[15:10] <Miclee> Grum: Why does it need to happen?
[15:10] <Grum> even notch said that over a year ago :/
[15:10] <pig> ?ping
[15:10] <crow> pong
[15:10] <Shadow386> ?pong
[15:10] <crow> lahwran likes cute asian boys
[15:10] <Miclee> Explain to me why it DOES need to happen, Grum.
[15:10] <Shadow386> ._.
[15:10] <Miclee> I'd like to hear this.
[15:10] <Grum> Miclee: because right now any change you do had to be implemented twice
[15:10] <SmallDeadGuy> Risugami: :P
[15:10] <Grum> *has
[15:10] <ShaRose> Grum and?
[15:10] <Grum> SP and MP have different bugs
[15:10] <Grum> and? it makes it unworkable O.o
[15:10] <ShaRose> There are a LOT of mods which are only SP
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[15:10] <armed> But it needs to be done right
[15:11] <Miclee> How is that unworkable?
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[15:11] <Grum> ShaRose: yes and they will have to change
[15:11] <ShaRose> no, it won't
[15:11] <Miclee> Grum: And most of them will be unwilling, so there's another 25% of the modding community dead.
[15:11] <famerdave> Guys! Why don't we wait till Grum and Jeb and the rest of the team is gotten something to show us, then tell them what needs to change
[15:11] <Grum> then they wont o.O
[15:11] <Risugami> can you at least combine SP and MP, but NOT use a socket for SP
[15:11] <armed> This seems to sound like "expect to have to rewrite all your mods"
[15:11] <Miclee> There's a whole 75% of the modding community dead from your API, Grum.
[15:11] <Grum> Risugami: ofc
[15:11] <Miclee> What now?
[15:11] <Grum> no need to use sockets :)
[15:11] <Miclee> How do you guys hope to sustain a community?
[15:11] <Risugami> use a basic data stream that uses no networking
[15:11] <Samantha> i am? that doesn't sound like good news at all =[
[15:12] <ShaRose> Risugami I'd rather they didn't do that :P
[15:12] <Grum> Risugami: yeah just create the packets and pop them in the queue locally
[15:12] <ShaRose> It'd be better to have a dummy interface that just loops back
[15:12] <SmallDeadGuy> Miclee: They're probably hoping curse + yogscast will
[15:12] <Risugami> yea that is the sane method
[15:12] <Shadow386> famerdave, because then we'd be letting them make something noone will like and it'll be stuck in the game as they wont remove it. Handle it before it's done, get everyone's ideas, make it one, get something everyone likes
[15:12] <Didz> Risugami, it'll probably be done like Quake III does its local games
[15:12] <Grum> yeah ofc Risugami :D
[15:12] <Shadow386> some people don't like to wait for something to be fixed
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[15:12] <Didz> pop network events into the event queue, which doesn't go through any net interface
[15:12] <Grum> yup
[15:12] <Grum> that is the plan
[15:12] <creatorfromhell> mm
[15:12] <Grum> then strip the client down
[15:12] <Risugami> opening a listening port for localhost is just stupid
[15:12] <creatorfromhell> However, doing it with localhost would help too.
[15:12] <Grum> Risugami: ofc
[15:13] <ShaRose> Grum as long as you don't massively increase lag for SP clients :P
[15:13] <Grum> the client shouldn't be more than a graphical shell
[15:13] <creatorfromhell> Wouldn't you be able to use a server software in SP to mod the game and add features?
[15:13] <Grum> ShaRose: internally it already works like this
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[15:13] <Grum> we'd just be merging the codebases
[15:13] <Miclee> Grum: I'm surprised. In just a few hours you turned a hopeful modding community into something that's angry.
[15:13] <creatorfromhell> It seems like a needed thing.
[15:13] <GUIpsp> Guys! Guys! Why don't we wait for dinnerbone?
[15:13] == armed [~armed_tro@mobile-166-147-108-157.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Bye]
[15:14] <Miclee> GUIpsp: Because we've been waiting and waiting. D:
[15:14] <Grum> Miclee: not for a good reason though :)
[15:14] == mode/#risucraft [-q *!*@c-67-170-244-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] by Risugami
[15:14] <Miclee> Grum: The goal of the API is to make modders happy.
[15:14] <Miclee> Not angry.
[15:14] <Risugami> thought I did that already
[15:14] <Miclee> If it makes us angry, you're doing it wrong.
[15:14] <njits23> True dat
[15:14] <Didz> heh, Dinnerbone is the mother we run to when father Grum doesn't let us have what we want
[15:14] <Grum> Miclee: there will always be angry people, for good and for bad reasons
[15:14] <Miclee> Grum: Except the core of the modding community is angry.
[15:14] <Miclee> That's not a good thing.
[15:14] == ogelami [~ogelami@c83-255-18-221.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 195 seconds]
[15:14] <Miclee> The 12 year olds will be happy with anything.
[15:14] <Miclee> Actual serious modders? No.
[15:14] <Grum> Dinnerbone will say the same
[15:15] <Miclee> Doubtful.
[15:15] <Grum> it will actually happen :)
[15:15] <Miclee> We'll see. :)
[15:15] <Grum> so we shall
[15:15]  * Searge sees only very few people being angry here, most certainly less than 1%
[15:15] <njits23> SP being a local version of MP?
[15:15] <GUIpsp> fuck you and your :) you are reminding me of TFC
[15:15] <Shadow386> Searge, I'm raging so hard, I pooped
[15:15] <Grum> but really, until there is a decent api i see no reason for any modding framework to 'dissapear'
[15:15] <Shadow386> but that was about 7 hours ago
[15:15] <SmallDeadGuy> Searge: I was raging in ##crow
[15:15] <Shadow386> or was it 8?
[15:15] <njits23> I thought notch had that planned for a loooong time.
[15:16] <Miclee> Grum: As the modding framework will be unofficial and can't be distributed on Mojang's distribution servers.
[15:16] <Grum> njits23: yes for eons
[15:16] <SmallDeadGuy> It's VERY annoying
[15:16] <Miclee> The mods that are 'unofficial' won't be able to compete with those that are 'official'.
[15:16] <famerdave> Grum - when do you think the first update with the API will happen? How much longer will the Forge, and MCP be useD??
[15:16] <ShaRose> actually he scrapped that idea shortly after we got wind of it
[15:16] <Grum> Miclee: why would you need a modding framework if you have an api that allows you to do the things you want?
[15:16] <Samantha> 69
[15:16] <Shadow386> exactly 4 years and 6 months from now
[15:16] <Samantha> would i lie?
[15:16] <ShaRose> because we explained in detail the changes that would need to be done to do it right
[15:16] <Miclee> Grum: :| You said it won't support the main menu stuff!
[15:16] <Grum> famerdave: probably until the api surpasses it and people see no reason to use it
[15:16] <Miclee> It's not letting me do what I won't.
[15:16] <Miclee> want*
[15:16] <Grum> Miclee: i said from a mojang pov it might not be sensible
[15:17] <Miclee> Grum: I gave you reasons why it would be.
[15:17] <Miclee> If I told Carl the same reasons, I'm sure he'd agree.
[15:17] <SmallDeadGuy> Yay, repeating sections of arguments :(
[15:17] <Grum> and those were bad reasons and yet i still agreed with that it should probably be moddable in THAT way you showed
[15:17] <Miclee> Grum: With an entirely custom renderer?
[15:17] <Grum> why custom? there is already a world-renderer in the background
[15:18] <Miclee> Calling renderWorld on the main menu didn't exactly work well, Grum.
[15:18] <Miclee> And Grum, the background of the main menu are .pngs
[15:18] <Miclee> Not a world. :S
[15:18] <Miclee> It's a series of panoramic .pngs
[15:18] <Miclee> lol
[15:18] <njits23> LOL
[15:18] <GUIpsp> LOL
[15:18] <Grum> pfft dinnerbone lied :P
[15:18] <SmallDeadGuy> I'm pretty sure Grum is very biased due to his experience with bukkit. Bukkit is a good software for small server plugins that don't require much modification (if any) but is almost completely unexpandable
[15:18] <Grum> i feel tricked now :D
[15:18] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: and that is something that has to be fixed
[15:19] <GUIpsp> !butt pfft dinnerbone lied
[15:19] <Miclee> Grum: So I'll ask again: With an entirely custom renderer?
[15:19] <crow> pfft butt lied
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[15:19] <Grum> the reason bukkit didnt do it is because there was no intention to change the client
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[15:19] <Grum> however once the client becomes 'more stupid' it will become significantly easier to do such things
[15:19] <Grum> Miclee: no idea, but can it make coffee?
[15:20] <famerdave> Grum: Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you will give us a bases - then ask us what else we need? and keep working?
[15:20] <njits23> Lol
[15:20] <Miclee> Grum: If we wanted it to, yes.
[15:20] <Miclee> All we'd need to do is hook the code into a coffee machine and make said code do it.
[15:20] <Grum> Miclee: but it doesnt do it now? must suck then
[15:20] <Miclee> It's just robotics.
[15:20] <Miclee> Grum: Does Minecraft make coffee?
[15:20] <Miclee> Nope.
[15:20] <Miclee> Must suck then.
[15:20] <Grum> that is your reasoning :/
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[15:20] <Grum> hard to argue with that
[15:20] <Didz> even if the client is a dumb client, it still needs all the server-side logic for client-side predictioning...
[15:20] <Miclee> No, that's your reasoning that you just stated, Grum. >_>
[15:21] <Grum> Didz: yes
[15:21] <Searge> next MCP will have a make_coffee.bat
[15:21] <GUIpsp> Searge: do it.
[15:21] <Grum> also: 'The modding API will be designed and developed openly, to make sure we get important feedback from members of the community.' <-- don't forget to give input Miclee :)
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[15:21] <Didz> where do we give input?
[15:21] <Miclee> Grum: I have.
[15:21] <Didz> apart from discussing here?
[15:21] <ShaRose> http://titanpad.com/YCHUgtx70A Grum Miclee
[15:21] <Miclee> You keep saying it's not good.
[15:22] <GUIpsp> Grum: You are fucking up and ignoring that altogether
[15:22] <ShaRose> Fill it in.
[15:22] <Grum> Miclee: that is not input :/
[15:22] <Miclee> Grum: What isn't?
[15:22] <Miclee> I've given plenty of input.
[15:22] <Miclee> Have you not been reading these last hour or two?
[15:22] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: Have you got a good answer for why the source for minecraft shouldn't be released?
[15:22] <ShaRose> Miclee / Grum are there any points I missed on that titanpad?
[15:22] <Grum> because its a bad idea (tm) :D
[15:23] <ShaRose> Grum you have to explain why in an argument >_>
[15:23] == famerdave [~famerdave@nc-71-48-26-37.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: famerdave]
[15:23] <Miclee> Grum: Is that your only reasoning?
[15:23] <Miclee> Really?
[15:23] <WackoMcGoose> Grum: My response to your argument... http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/201/508/221435NothingtodoHereGifMadethiscuzIwas2479d82822723.gif?1321553488
[15:23] <ShaRose> that's how arguments work. You explain your positions and why you hold them, and the one with the better reasons wins.
[15:23] <Miclee> ShaRose: No, you've pretty much got it.
[15:23] <Grum> but honestly, i think there would be a far greater benefit from making a proper modding api than having yet another wildgrowth of different platforms
[15:23] <WackoMcGoose> dammit knowyourmeme, stop with the overly long filenames!
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[15:23] <Miclee> Grum: There doesn't need to be different platforms.
[15:23] <Miclee> Simply make something that can merge things ingame.
[15:24] <ShaRose> Grum and I agree, an api IS needed, but there is no reason to not release source code.
[15:24] <Grum> 'merge things ingame' and 'simply' do not go into the same line :)
[15:24] <Miclee> Grum: 'simply' is just a word.
[15:24] == pig has changed nick to iChun
[15:24] <Grum> ShaRose: also not a good reason to release the source
[15:24] <Miclee> :P
[15:24] <ShaRose> Grum you already use git
[15:24] <Miclee> And yes, you have git. >_>
[15:24] <Miclee> It is actually rather simple.
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[15:24] <Grum> really, do mcp or bukkit need the source to function?
[15:24] <ShaRose> the whole point of it IS TO MAKE THIS KIND OF PROJECT EASY
[15:24] <SmallDeadGuy> Grum: I currently can't think of any reason why you shouldn't be fired from mojang (assuming these answers are purely yours, of they represent mojang as a whole you should just quit and hide in a hole for the rest of your life)
[15:24] <Shadow386> inb4 git gets hacked and someone takes the source
[15:25] <Miclee> Grum: What relevancy does that have at all?
[15:25] <SmallDeadGuy> If*
[15:25] <Grum> well then mcp should do it differntly and implement an api rather than hacking in decompiled code :D
[15:25] <Didz> Bukkit updates take a ridiculous amount of time simply for the fact they don't have the source
[15:25] <ShaRose> Grum no they don't, but you said earlier the reason we couldn't just push bugfixes and shit WAS BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE SOURCE.
[15:25] <Didz> they have to manually do everything by hand
[15:25] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: seriously? because I disagree? :/
[15:25] <Miclee> Grum: Them making an API is ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS BECAUSE YOU GUYS SAID YOU ARE.
[15:25] <Miclee> Unofficial APIs can't compete with official APIs.
[15:25] <Miclee> >_>
[15:25] <Grum> they cant?
[15:25] <Miclee> No.
[15:25] <Samantha> i might answer, one day
[15:25] <Miclee> Nobody will use unofficial ones.
[15:25] <njits23> Nevah
[15:25] == Chaazd [webchat@v21-15.opera-mini.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 183 seconds]
[15:25] <Miclee> THey can't distribute on the official servers, Grum.
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[15:26] <Miclee> Therefore less/no downloads.
[15:26] <Grum> Miclee: so make sure the official one is good then! :D
[15:26] <Miclee> Grum: That's what we're trying to do. :|
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[15:26] <WackoMcGoose> ^
[15:26] <Miclee> You just won't listen to us. :|
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[15:26] <ShaRose> Grum still waiting on a rebuttle to any of the points on that titanpad...
[15:26] == mCORP [webchat@dsl-63-249-19-60.zipcon.net] has joined #risucraft
[15:26] <Grum> ShaRose: wont happen
[15:26] <geo00444> Wooo internet drama :D
[15:26] <Miclee> Grum: So you concede defeat?
[15:26] <Searge> <Grum> well then mcp should do it differntly and implement an api rather than hacking in decompiled code :D   <--- working on it already...
[15:26] <Grum> Searge: see even you see the light :)
[15:26] == CyclopsCaveman [~CyclopsCa@rrcs-70-60-109-133.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #risucraft
[15:26] <alleymoses96_> feel like i shoulda gotten my popcorn by now
[15:27] <ZNickq> i got popcorn alley
[15:27] <Didz> I've delayed going to the toilet for so long.
[15:27] <Miclee> Searge: Well, I guess the modding community will have to be based on an unofficial API, then. :P
[15:27] <Grum> Didz: same for me with going to bed :)
[15:27] == Kobata_ has changed nick to Kobata
[15:27] <Grum> Miclee: it is right now already
[15:27] <Grum> mcp, bukkit, canary, name it
[15:27] <ShaRose> modloader
[15:27] <Grum> spout evne
[15:27] <Miclee> Grum: Yes, but when there's an official one things change.
[15:27] <Didz> well Grum, I don't do that in my bed but all the best for you
[15:27] <Miclee> That's the point I'm making
[15:28] <Searge> the problem is not if we use and official or inofficial api, the real problem is, there are too many of them instead of just one that is used and maintained by everyone
[15:28] <WackoMcGoose> ^
[15:28] <Grum> Miclee: yes, so start thinking on how to add stuff to an api beyond: 'can it run a custom renderer @ login screen' (though that might be fun :D)
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[15:28] <SmallDeadGuy> Lost interwebs :(
[15:28] <Miclee> Grum: I can't think of specifics until you tell us the plans for what it will support.
[15:29] <Miclee> Saying 'all the stuff' doesn't really tell us what it support.
[15:29] <Shadow386> Searge, issue for that is there's too many people that see differently. Some amateur developers would want to do things the longer ways while the newer ones already know the shortcuts.
[15:29] <Miclee> That's just you being lazy or unorganized.
[15:29] <WackoMcGoose> SmallDeadGuy: Don't worry, I'm planning on pastebinning this whole channel.
[15:29] <Grum> Miclee: i realize that -- not sure when mojang plans to start with this though
[15:29] <mCORP> @Risugami, can I have permission to use some of your mods in my modpack for 1.2.5? It won't be AdF.ly
[15:29] <Grum> i hope soon; it'll need some time to mature and grow
[15:29] <Miclee> Grum: So let me get this straight --- Mojang's #1 PRIORITY, the API, HAS NO PLANS FOR THE API?
[15:29] <Miclee> Good one.
[15:29] <Shadow386> mCORP, but will it blend
[15:29] <SmallDeadGuy> Anyway, Grum: you should be fired because you have to audacity to come into the heart of the minecraft (client-side) modding community and tell us that your ideas are so much better than ours and what we want is actually not beneficial to us
[15:29] <Miclee> Jeb has stated numerous times it's your #1 priority as well, so don't say otherwise.
[15:29] <ShaRose> Grum wasn't the whole point of that week or so talking about the API to, you know, plan the api
[15:29] <mCORP> I need a blender mod first
[15:30] <Shadow386> Blend harder!
[15:30] <mCORP> Then, yes.
[15:30] <Grum> Miclee: no we have enough plans but as i pasted before (from http://www.mojang.com/2012/03/minecraft-1-2-5-prerelease/ ) -- the point is to tlak with the community and see what is needed
[15:30] <mCORP> I need modloader for that mod anyways, so...
[15:30] <armed_troop> Miclee: unofficial APIs that are based on MC can't compete; how about unofficial MC-compatible engines with their own APIs?
[15:30] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: but i'm right! >:P
[15:30] <Miclee> Grum: We can't tell you everything that's needed until we get fleshed out official plans.
[15:30] <Shadow386> Grum: issue with that is you're pushing the community away but not taking their advice
[15:30] <Miclee> armed_troop: The mods can't be distrib'd on Mojang's servers.
[15:30] <Miclee> IDEA
[15:30] <Miclee> Whoever makes the API makes the mod browser grab mods from their own servers.
[15:30] <Miclee> :D
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[15:30] <armed_troop> Miclee: no, they'd be distributed elsewhere
[15:31] <Miclee> armed_troop: Or do what I just said.
[15:31] <Miclee> And have it be ingame and everything.
[15:31] <Grum> Miclee: you wont be able to do that though
[15:31] <mCORP> Risugami, you there?
[15:31] <Miclee> Grum: Want to bet?
[15:31] <Didz> many people don't know or don't want to touch unofficial things like client mods or custom clients, if this official API doesn't suffice then the advanced mods can't use it and they'll lose players as they'll be heading over to the "official mods"
[15:31] <geo00444> Miclee: perhaps not the right time but any chance of that hunger games server ever going up again? XD
[15:31] <Miclee> geo00444: Probably sometime within the week.
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[15:31] <alleymoses96_> all i wanna know is will i be able to install mods like i can texture packs
[15:31] <Grum> Didz: so the point is to make it good enough :D
[15:31] <geo00444> Miclee: Awsome :D
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[15:32] <SmallDeadGuy> I think I'm gonna go through the channel log of this, and highlight every unanswered question, every avoidance of a question and every "because I'm right" and related phrases
[15:32] <Miclee> ^^
[15:32] <Miclee> Do it, SmallDeadGuy.
[15:32] <Miclee> Then put it on Reddit.
[15:32] <WackoMcGoose> ^^^
[15:32] <mCORP> YSE
[15:32] <mCORP> *yes
[15:32] <Miclee> I'll help get people to upvote.
[15:32] <geo00444> In all honesty ive got no problems with mods at the moment, there straight forward to install and the such, Sorry if your arguing about how there made :/
[15:32] <armed_troop> geo00444: I disagree.
[15:32] <Grum> SmallDeadGuy: lol
[15:33] <Miclee> Grum: He's not kidding.
[15:33] <ShaRose> oh and Dinnerbone since Grum doesn't seem interested in looking at this, http://titanpad.com/YCHUgtx70A Fill it in with as many points as you can
[15:33] <Grum> feel free to do so
[15:33] <Miclee> If you think he's kidding I feel bad for you.
[15:33] <mCORP> We need an official MagicLauncher imho.
[15:33] <Miclee> SmallDeadGuy: Include any condescending remarks, too.
[15:33] <armed_troop> mCORP: magiclauncher sucks
[15:33] <SmallDeadGuy> Miclee: Yup
[15:33] <armed_troop> ?sklauncher
[15:33] <crow> sklauncher is http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1104030-
[15:33] <armed_troop> md_5: WORK ON IT
[15:33] <mCORP> armed_troop I love it!
[15:33] <mCORP> armed_troop Why not?
[15:33] <armed_troop> it's a closed source mess
[15:33] <Risugami> still arguing about this?
[15:33] <ShaRose> SmallDeadGuy if you do, include a copy of that titanpad
[15:33] <geo00444> Armed_troop: As long as you follow, the straight forward, instructions you get it installed easily. Ive got no experience with coding or anything similar but i install them fine!
[15:33] <mCORP> armed_troop If it was official...
[15:33] <armed_troop> made by sp614x
[15:34] <Miclee> Risugami: It would've been done if he'd have listened, but he hasn't yet.
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[15:34] <SmallDeadGuy> ShaRose: Well it's in the logs :)
[15:34] <Miclee> So we're still trying until Dinnerbone shows up.
[15:34] <alleymoses96_> exactly mCORP about the magic launcher
[15:34] <mCORP> I'm gonna ask Mojang for a spinoff thingy of MagicLauncher
[15:34] == Sab0t [~8bitForLi@99-36-164-188.lightspeed.snjsca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #risucraft
[15:34] <SmallDeadGuy> WackoMcGoose: Once he's gone, send the log to me and ill begin highlighting
[15:34] <Risugami> and to think Samantha started all of this
[15:34] <ShaRose> SmallDeadGuy stick it on titanpad!
[15:34] <WackoMcGoose> SmallDeadGuy: kk
[15:34] <Grum> Miclee: write up what you'd need/want to see in a 'modding' system and we'll talk about that
[15:34] <Miclee> Grum: Read the logs from the last two hours.
[15:34] <Miclee> There you go!
[15:34] <Miclee> :o
[15:35] <Samantha> crikey
[15:35] <Grum> .....
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[15:35] <mCORP> Risugami, can I have permission to use some of your mods in a non-adfly-distributed mod pack please?
[15:35] <Miclee> You've had many major modders tell you what they want to see.
[15:35] <Miclee> Were you ignoring it all?
[15:35] <SmallDeadGuy> ShaRose: I can't titanpad from my iPod very well
[15:35] == iChun [~iChun@86.167.159.110.tm-hsbb.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: I haz a portal gun.]
[15:35] <ShaRose> SmallDeadGuy you suck :P
[15:35] <Miclee> You're asking us to tell you what we want to see on a system you haven't really told us about, Grum.
[15:35] <Miclee> You even said you guys don't have a base plan for it, yet.
[15:35] <SmallDeadGuy> ShaRose: You can :P
[15:35] <geo00444> LOUD NOISES!
[15:35] <Grum> Miclee: the system right now is blank
[15:35] <SmallDeadGuy> Miclee: I'm pretty sure he is
[15:36] <Grum> we have enough plans and ideas
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[15:36] <Shadow386> LOUDER NOISES!
[15:36] <WackoMcGoose> Grum: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/210/119/+_2acc5a8841f8752904d37f90a8014829.png?1322693145
[15:36] <Miclee> Grum: If it's blank, how do you have plans and ideas?
[15:36] <Miclee> I see none.
[15:36] <geo00444> EVEN LOUDIER NOISES!
[15:36] <Grum> Miclee: there is a big differene between writing it all out or having it in your head
[15:36] <Grum> +c
[15:36] <Didz> one thing, proper customisable GUI, making GUIs should be easy (using a designer of some sorts) and be able to show custom controls, handle varieties of input events, etc.
[15:36] <Miclee> Grum: Well, I've wrote probably arond 600 lines in the last two hours.
[15:36] <Miclee> Read those.
[15:37] <Miclee> And the other multiple thousand lines inbetween from other modders.
[15:37] <geo00444> Grum: Oh man i know, i mean i plan to do all my coursework but when i get home im like ARHFH.... Nope
[15:37] <Miclee> The stuff we want is fairly outlined in there.
[15:37] <Grum> Didz: should be added indeed :)
[15:37] <Risugami> I'd like modular guis sent by the server
[15:37] <Grum> imho assets should come from the server
[15:37] <ShaRose> we should all hop on mumble for a laugh
[15:37] <Grum> so guis too
[15:37] <Miclee> Grum: Or avoid what I said yet again.
[15:37] <alleymoses96_> and handheld torches that give off light should be added
[15:37] <ShaRose> Grum I'd be STRONGLY against that
[15:37] <Risugami> maybe not images though
[15:37] <Didz> oh and translation should be easier, I still see months old incorrect translations for languages that no one can correct because Jeb has to pass through every single phrase
[15:37] <ShaRose> unless you sign each mod
[15:37] <ShaRose> and vet them
[15:37] <Didz> but that's not really modding related..
[15:37] <WackoMcGoose> Clue meter's reading zero, Miclee.
[15:37] <Didz> in terms of API
[15:37] <GaryCXJk> Back.
[15:37] <Grum> Risugami: that could be packaged in a 'asset'-part of a plugin orso
[15:38] <GaryCXJk> Was a really fun movie.
[15:38] <Miclee> I think I've faded out of reality, guys!
[15:38] <ShaRose> otherwise it's join a server and bam a virus gets downloaded to you
[15:38] <Miclee> :o
[15:38] <GaryCXJk> Seriously, must see movie.
[15:38] <alleymoses96_> as well as torches with different lighting colors
[15:38] <Grum> Miclee: you are just repeating yourself and not adding any real information
[15:38] <geo00444> GaryCXJK: What movie?
[15:38] <Didz> and yeah! dynamic light sources with any colour/intensity should be able to be placed anywhere in worlds
[15:38] <GaryCXJk> Puss in Boots.
[15:38] <Risugami> wonder if we can send packed opengl calls over networks
[15:38] <Miclee> Grum: No, I did add information.
[15:38] <geo00444> Suddenly http://0x10c.com/screenshots/004.png
[15:38] <Didz> static lights, blinking lights, pulsing, etc.
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[15:38] <Grum> you might notice that i can actually respond properly to Didz or Risugami for example
[15:38] <Miclee> You keep asking what we want, Grum, when we've been telling you it for two hours.
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[15:39] <Didz> geo00444, OH NO, MORE WOODEN PLANK COLOURS
[15:39] <GaryCXJk> Risugami, I assume that's not impossible.
[15:39] <GaryCXJk> Although it requires skills.
[15:39] <WackoMcGoose> Risugami: OpenGL calls? Over networks? Isn't rendering 110% clientside (and should be)?
[15:39] <GaryCXJk> Something Mojang doesn't have :P
[15:39] <Grum> Risugami: not sure; would be cool :D
[15:39] <GaryCXJk> Oh wait, Grum's here.
[15:39] <geo00444> Didz: I know XD Fun fun fun!!!! and not mental damaging at all.... also its going to be p2p ¬¬
[15:39] <Risugami> VBO byte streams? heh
[15:40] <Grum> GaryCXJk: i have NO skills in ogl :P
[15:40] <Risugami> might be fun to play with
[15:40] <Didz> OpenGL is an abstract client-server architecture already
[15:40] <geo00444> I have NO SKILLS in programming :D
[15:40] <GaryCXJk> Anyway, I should be working on my own game.
[15:40] <GaryCXJk> Or games.
[15:40] <GaryCXJk> Or engines, whatever is easier.
[15:40] <ashtheking> Render calls over networks? That'd be interesting. Certainly helpful in MC for server mods / plugins.
[15:40] <geo00444> ohhhh GaryXCJK what games? :D
[15:41] <Miclee> Dinnerbone whai u no wake up. D:
[15:41] <Risugami> ideally you'd cache it for future use
[15:41] <Grum> ashtheking: aye hard to deal with lag though :)
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[15:41] <ashtheking> yeah
[15:41] <Grum> Miclee: he'll prolly say the same but phrase it better =D
[15:41] <ashtheking> I mean, you could probably send it once
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[15:41] <Didz> can't be the mess that WebGL was early on, very insecure and allowed sites to basically screenshot your desktop and any windows you had open
[15:41] <Miclee> Grum: Doubtful, I've learned Dinnerbone cares about this community.
[15:41] <GaryCXJk> geo00444, one's a cosmic horror dating sim, the other's a game engine that can be described as "the MUGEN of Super Smash Bros."
[15:41] == mode/#risucraft [+v ertyuiop99] by zsh
[15:41] <Miclee> Grum: We nearly cancelled EvilMinecraft; Dinnerbone spent around an hour to convince me to not cancel it.
[15:41] <Risugami> hmmm actually. tesselator is kinda designed for packets
[15:41] <ashtheking> as Risu said, caching
[15:41] <Miclee> Doubtful you would do the same, Grum.
[15:41] <geo00444> GaryCXJK a... cosmic horror dating sim?
[15:41] <Grum> Miclee: oh right and i've spend 19 months on minecrafts communities without caring for them :P
[15:42] <Miclee> Grum: *looks at Bukkit*
[15:42] <Miclee> Yes
[15:42] <ashtheking> if something changed, THEN you send a packet
[15:42] <GaryCXJk> geo00444, yeah, a cosmic horror dating sim.
[15:42] <Grum> Miclee: there is a reason why jens chose the bukkit people
[15:42] <Miclee> Grum: Apparently he was wrong! :o
[15:42] <geo00444> GaryCXJK That sounds just terryfingly awsome
[15:42] == Portalboat [webchat@ip72-193-215-184.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #risucraft
[15:42] <GaryCXJk> Basically a guy falls in love with an Elder Godess Chse, and he has to prove his love to her by woeing three aspects of the Godess.
[15:43] <geo00444> I think we all need to take a deep breath here!
[15:43] <Grum> Miclee: i'd actually also convince you to continue
[15:43] <Grum> as there is no reason not to
[15:43] <ashtheking> for example: zombie - texture, base model, model part rotation
[15:43] <GaryCXJk> The three aspects are intelligence, appearance and personality.
[15:43] <WackoMcGoose> http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/201/508/221435NothingtodoHereGifMadethiscuzIwas2479d82822723.gif?1321553488 <- My response again
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[15:43] <Miclee> Grum: You already proved you wouldn't, earlier, when discussing the main menu.
[15:43] <Miclee> You said you guys wouldn't do the main menu thing.
[15:43] <Miclee> There's one reason for us to stop.
[15:43] <Miclee> There will likely be more when the API rolls out.
[15:43] <ashtheking> nothing ever changes, so you'd only send one packet, defining how to render the zombie
[15:43] <ShaRose> [Saturday 08:09:56 pm] <Grum> Miclee: there is a reason why jens chose the bukkit people
[15:43] <Grum> and frankly; the more you push the boundaries of what is needed/wanted/possible the more should be possible with an API (you cant design it if you dont think of it :D)
[15:43] <ShaRose> maybe it was because you had corporate backing...
[15:43] <geo00444> GaryCXJK already reminds me of a space version of zelda... buuut... you cant go wrong with that!
[15:43] <Risugami> ?hatersgonnahate
[15:43] <crow> http://i.imgur.com/2E3D9.gif
[15:44] <Grum> ShaRose: nope
[15:44] <ZNickq> hahaha
[15:44] <Miclee> Grum: Fairly certain it was.
[15:44] <ZNickq> i loved that one
[15:44] <Miclee> Mojang should've hired UltraMoogleMan.
[15:44] <geo00444> http://i.imgur.com/5tKcK.gif
[15:44] <crow> http://imgur.com/gallery/5tKcK
[15:44] <mCORP> Risugami: Can I have permission to use some of your mods in my modpack for 1.2.5? It won't be AdF.ly.
[15:44] <GaryCXJk> geo00444, it all takes place on an Earth-like environment.
[15:44] <ShaRose> What Miclee said.
[15:44] <Grum> Miclee: i agree
[15:44] <GUIpsp> <Miclee> Mojang should've hired UltraMoogleMan.
[15:44] <Grum> and i even told them so
[15:44] <armed_troop>  an API that could let you do *everything* would require rebuilding much of MC from the ground up
[15:44] <GaryCXJk> It's mostly the horror part that gets played.
[15:44] <GUIpsp> that.
[15:44] <WackoMcGoose> What armed_troop said.
[15:44] <geo00444> Crow WE DID THE SAME THING :O
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[15:44] <armed_troop> take a look at spout's efforts (not the "obsolete" plugin/client mod)
[15:44] <Grum> WackoMcGoose/ armed_troop: yup so lets do that incrementally :)
[15:44] <ZNickq> Mojang hired bukkit because " these guys have always had server admins in mind when developing their additions to the game. "
[15:45] <Miclee> Grum: So, let's see, Mojang passes up clearly better person for group with corporate backing...
[15:45] <Miclee> HMMMMM.
[15:45] <ZNickq> i always laugh when i hear that
[15:45] <GaryCXJk> !crow |geo00444
[15:45] <crow> geo00444: I'm a modified skybot, a python (python.org) bot! the code: http://github.com/lahwran/skybot
[15:45] <ShaRose> ZNickq yeah.
[15:45] <Grum> Miclee: that had nothing to do with eachother actually
[15:45] <Miclee> Grum: Oh, then what's it come down to?
[15:45] <Miclee> Since you seem to know all about it.
[15:45] <Didz> I don't think it was a choice between one or the other
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[15:45] <Grum> erm, it wasnt 'ultramoogleman' or 'people behind bukkit' ...
[15:46] <GaryCXJk> Jesus, I'm watching a one and a half movie and this discussion is still going?
[15:46] <Grum> but apparently you know better :D
[15:46] <Miclee> Grum: If you don't know about it, how do you know it has nothing to do with eachother? :P
[15:46] <Mabjobro> >@
[15:46] <ashtheking> you know, when starting my mod, i had a thoguht
[15:46] <ashtheking> *thought
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[15:46] <ashtheking> i was coding shouts at the time
[15:46] <GaryCXJk> I disagree with the statement that UMM should have been hired by Mojang.
[15:46] <ShaRose> Grum I remember a while ago jerb did an interview where they were discussing getting modders to help build the game.
[15:46] <ZNickq> lol, jerb
[15:46] <Miclee> GaryCXJk: In an actual work environment he's good.
[15:46] <ashtheking> my thought was: "I could do this so much easier with bukkit"
[15:46] <GaryCXJk> It would mean a job for him which he probably won't like as much as his current.
[15:47] <Miclee> In a nonserious environment he's not.
[15:47] <ShaRose> What he said was that they all said "we ALL helped make it better :D" from all the major groups
[15:47] <Miclee> And that's true as well.
[15:47] <Miclee> He enjoys scaleform.
[15:47] <Mabjobro> meanwhile, daedric alphabet
[15:47] <SmallDeadGuy> GaryCXJk: Me too, he was a good coder but he was an arsehole
[15:47] <GaryCXJk> Miclee, the job he currently is in satisfies him enough, probably more than when he would work at Mojang.
[15:47] <ShaRose> yet, there are only a few groups for client. Forge, ModLoader.
[15:47] <Miclee> Yes, that's probably true.
[15:47] <Miclee> Mojang really missed out, though. D:
[15:47] <Didz> all graphics programmers are aresholes
[15:47] <Didz> really!
[15:47] <ShaRose> Modloader is Risugami. Forge would be Lex or eloraam.
[15:47] <ashtheking> ShaRose, yeah, and there are plenty for Bukkit
[15:47] <ShaRose> There's no argument.
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[15:47] <GaryCXJk> At least at Autodesk, he knows the people there are competent.
[15:47] <geo00444> Well this has been fun
[15:48] <Miclee> GaryCXJk: True enough. :P
[15:48] <GUIpsp> ShaRose: except kill eloraam.
[15:48] <Didz> https://twitter.com/#!/DickWhitehouse/status/182349594108248064
[15:48] <Didz> tweet related
[15:48] <GaryCXJk> So far Mojang hasn't proven anything in that regard.
[15:48] <armed_troop> I wouldn't say that ALL graphics programmers are assholes :)
[15:48] <ashtheking> the Client really needs an API similar to bukkit
[15:48] <ShaRose> GUIpsp agreed, but moving along
[15:48] <armed_troop> though good ones that aren't assholes are few and far between
[15:48]  * GenuineSounds is listening to Owl City - Meteor Shower
[15:48] <ShaRose> Grum basically he said the groups he talked to were large groups with lots of contributors where you couldn't just pick 1-2 people.
[15:48] <ashtheking> I mean, honestly
[15:48] <Mabjobro> >not being an ego-driven prick
[15:48] <ShaRose> The only group with that issue is bukkit.
[15:48] <Risugami> could do without the interface for everything, but yes
[15:49] <WackoMcGoose> General opinion of everyone here:
[15:49] <WackoMcGoose> .y i killed a fad
[15:49] <crow> WackoMcGoose: I Killed a Fad - length 2m 54s - rated 4.47/5.0 (15) - 2535 views - thepopcornfairy on 2011.06.30 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=slNG9V96PPY
[15:49] <ShaRose> He did this long before you guys were hired.
[15:49]  * medsouz informs UltraMoogleMan of this discussion
[15:49] <Mabjobro> UMM OKAY
[15:49] <Didz> I've already showed that tweet to him :P
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[15:49] <Didz> OHLAWD
[15:49] <Riking> WHA-BOOM
[15:49] <WackoMcGoose> HOLY NETHERRACK
[15:49] <Risugami> died faster than usual
[15:49]  * Riking is immune from bouncer crash
[15:49] <WackoMcGoose> NETSPLIT
[15:49] <GaryCXJk> FreeBNC crapping out again?
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[15:49] <ashtheking> Risugami, IKR. If everyone in this channel coded a bit of the API (about 2-3 classes of the client), we'd be almost done
[15:49] <Riking> WackoMcGoose, no freebnc
[15:49] <Corosus> wont be riding that wave
[15:49] <GUIpsp> What part split?
[15:49] <ShaRose> what GaryCXJk said
[15:49] <Miclee> That's not a netsplit.
[15:50] <WackoMcGoose> oh
[15:50] <Miclee> That's freebnc derp.
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[15:50] <Didz> lol
[15:50] <Risugami> freebncsplit
[15:50] <Risugami> common thing
[15:50] <ShaRose> FreeSplit
[15:50] <WackoMcGoose> And THAT is why I stick with the in-browser vanilla EsperNet.