DR on EvE skills

This overview written by Drazz Caylen challenges the statement of how Diminishing Returns (DR) as statistical values from one skill to the next subsequent are common. Based on the observations, it turns out to be fairly rare instead of common. More skills with DR based on increased training time for subsequent skills could be argued, but this was not part of the original assertion.


   >> CORPORATION MANAGEMENT:
The exact opposite of diminishing returns.
 Corporation Management (x1) gives +20 members per level.
 Megacorp Management (x3) gives +100
 Empire Control (x5) gives +400
 Sovereignty (x8) Gives +2000


   >> DRONES:
Looks like 2% damage per level for drone specializations compared to 5% to the basic drones per level. Looks like DR, but is it really? You have to train 3 basic skills to 5 to get +25% damage bonus. Yet you only need one specialization to 5 to give each type 10% bonus damage. So technically, that's 10+10+10 for a specialization. I'd call that even, despite being technically a DR. However.
Let's not talk about Drone interfacing, which is 10% damage per level, for any and all damaging squirrels you embark. It's on the same training requirement as Light Drone Operation, which is a x1 skill for +5% whereas Drone Interfacing is x5 for 10% overall. Sure, slower to get there, but bonuses for everything. Let's call that even too because I'm all so generous ;)
Drone range is indeed a DR. 5000 per level for Drone Avionics, and 3000 per level for Advanced Drone Avionics.


   >> ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS:
Plenty of examples of no DR. Subsequent skills affect a different attribute altogether, but have the same percentage level. Except Frequency Modulation and Long Distance jamming, which give 10% instead of 5%. Sure, different thing, just for the perspective. But if you actually look at what those skills do, you find the subsequent skills add more usefulness to it. Look;
ECM module cap reduction -> ECM strength / falloff / optimal.
Target painter & Weapon disrupt cap reduction -> signature multiplier / destabilizer bonus.


   >> ENGINEERING:
This is mostly evening itself out on same-level comparable results, or completely different subsequent skills like Thermodynamics. The Weapon Upgrades 5% vs Advanced Weapon Upgrades 2% could be put as DR but it's a far stretch. CPU and PG are inherently different attributes. By numbers alone, PG jumps all over ship sizes whereas CPU is much more in line. So 10% of 10.000 is by numbers a lot more than 25% of 400. Depending on the faction type, some say there is always not enough CPU, some say there is never enough PG. If you really want to ease the barrier here, don't make one the prerequisite of the next. They're two sides of the same coin.


   >> GUNNERY:
So we have 5% for basic turrets, 2% for advanced turrets and you need the other skill for the same size to get that 2% bonus too. Which is opposite to the Drone scenario. Then we have 3% Surgical strike for all turrets though, and I'm ignoring the fact for now how it is not a follow up skill for the turret ones, but from Gunnery.While it looks like a DR if only taking one turret type into account, these DR balance out and become a boost the moment you start shooting with more types of guns. I grant the DR to advanced turrets, although some might say their T2 ammo offsets that. The DR on surgical strike is playstyle specific though. But what's that with Gunnery? Gunnery is the absolute main requirement for all things turrets. And you only get a 2% RoF bonus compared to 5% damage bonus. That's not a DR. 10% faster rate of fire is worse than 25% damage. The difference between Gunnery and Surgical strike is, one is the prerequisite for everything else and the other is not.
Something that cannot be argued about is the 2% Gunnery -> 4% Rapid Fire ;)
The other auxiliary skills for falloff, optimal, etc only base themselves on the Gunnery skill, thusly are not comparable.
The 4% cooldown reduction per level of Doomsday compared to 10% damage per level definitely is a DR.


   >> MISSILES:
Similar to Gunnery, though differences at times much more glaring. Missile bombardment gives 2% RoF but a subsequent skill gives 10% per level to better damage projection. Specializations give 2% RoF instead of damage, which adds to more DPS on paper but can be disregarded as situational bonus so you can't say one over the other, really.


   >> NAVIGATION:
Nothing really, except you want me to nitpick on 5% Navigation bonus versus 5% subsequent AB / MWD bonus which build on top of that.


   >> NEURAL ENHANCEMENT:
Infomorph Psychology: 1 clone / level. Advanced infomorph psychology: 1 clone / level. That's not a DR.
The rest simply doesn't apply. Biology length bonuses over Neurotoxin penalty reductions could be called DR if one really is needy though, but hey. Not my call.


   >> PLANET MANAGEMENT:
I have no idea what the difference between Advanced Planetology 5 and only Planetology 5 is so I can't say if there is a DR. I'm nice though, and just believe there is.


   >> PRODUCTION:
Mass Production and Advanced Mass Production both give 1 job per skill level.
Industry gives 4% time Bonus, while Advanced Industry only gives 3% time bonus. Okay. But Advanced Industry also gives 3% Research bonus. So it's only a DR when nobody does research on that character.


   >> RESOURCE PROCESSING:
Mining 5% to Astrogeology 5% is not a DR.
3% from reprocessing versus 2% from Reprocessing efficiency / Ice processing is a DR. But how does 2% Scrapmetal Processing factor in there? While it is a subsequent skill from Reprocessing Efficiency, it doesn't benefit from the previous skills. Thus I'd say it can't be counted as DR. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Mining 5% yield to Ice Harvesting 5% cycle time cannot compare because they're both entirely different. It has to be said though, that same-level bonuses side by side for cycle time versus damage, speed bonuses always win over damage bonuses in the long run on paper. Put that rock down, I said on paper. It's statistical ass-wiping :P


   >> SCANNING:
Astrometric has -5% Scan deviation, same as subsequent Astrometric Pinpointing. Yeah, Astrometrics gives more bonuses to boot. So is it a DR? Training time wise, yes, because you get much more out of Astrometrics. Pure stat wise, it isn't.


   >> SCIENCE:
Laboratory Operation vs. Advanced Laboratory Operation. No DR.
If you really want to say that 1% Manufacturing time bonus for specialized skills over 4% time bonus from Research is a DR, then you would be right... if those were subsequent skills of Research. Which they are not.


   >> SPACESHIP COMMAND:
I thought I wouldn't find something in there, but the very basics are indeed surprising. You get 2% Inertia Modifier for every ship per level. Advanced Spaceship command gives you 5% per level on top of spaceship command, but only for those ships requiring it. We are at technicalities at this point, but it's still worth noting how 5% over 2% is not a diminishing return.


   >> TARGETING:
Target Management -> Advanced Target Management? You guessed it. It's not DR. It's equal. The rest doesn't compare.


   >> TRADE:
We come to the conclusion full circle as we find a similar pattern from Corporation management. However this time, Trade and Retail are identical in their training time vs. Orders. Technically, Wholesale and Tycoon keep that linear path, yet have a few more requirements attached to them. These only "get in the way" and become DR if you're a station trader. If not, DR don't apply.
 Trade (x1) = 4 orders per level
 Retail (x2) = 8
 Wholesale (x4) = 16
 Tycoon (x8) = 32


Armor, Rigging, Shield, Social, Structure Management and Subsystems as entire categories do not have any comparable benefits to each other. I really tried with Shield, but Shield Management cannot compared to Shield Operation since Shield Management doesn't even require a shield skill as prerequisite. I also tried with Armor but there isn't an apples to apples comparison in terms of improvement, other than maybe Armor compensation skills. Yet they add 5% resistance per level, where the previous Hull Upgrades adds 5% armor HP per level. So while doing different things, HP is nothing without resistances. Also, isn't it silly why HULL upgrades add to ARMOR hitpoints?

Maybe Fozzie mistook "diminishing returns" with "reducing skill modifiers from previous balance passes" as for example resistances being on 4% per level now instead of 5%. Who knows.

If you say "but increased training time is already diminishing returns" then we could argue, but I'd be disagreeing. Because the context was "why do percentages DECREASE with boost range" and you responded with "This is something we do almost everywhere in EVE. Diminishing returns help ensure that players with lower levels of skillpoints can compete against veterans."
Even if the increased training time applies as factor for diminishing returns, we have different levels for different prerequisites. For example, you'd be leveling Industry to 3, then ignore level 4 and pull Advanced Industry to 3 as this gives you more manufacture / Research time benefits for less time than the single level 4. This makes the statistical bonuses per time invested jump around. A similar pattern is all over EvE skills, if you don't have to go for level 5 skills anyway to get to the next skill.

Done. /wrap