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  1.  
  2. Session Start: Sun Mar 06 00:00:05 2016
  3. Session Ident: #AcademiaNutWork
  4. 03[01:59] * AcademiaNut ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  5. [02:02] <AcademiaNut> For all you lurkers, here is your chance to chat early before everyone else arrives
  6. 03[02:03] * Fumbles ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  7. 03[02:04] * colah ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  8. [02:05] <AcademiaNut> And here we go
  9. 03[02:05] * sidestory ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  10. [02:06] <AcademiaNut> 'allo 'allo
  11. [02:06] <sidestory> hi
  12. 06[02:06] * colah waves
  13. [02:07] <AcademiaNut> What up all?
  14. 03[02:08] * Salty_ ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  15. [02:08] <Salty_> Morning.
  16. [02:08] <AcademiaNut> Morning
  17. [02:08] <Salty_> Trying to get back in the saddle?
  18. [02:09] <AcademiaNut> Yes
  19. [02:09] <AcademiaNut> Wanted to call a bit of a roundtable
  20. [02:10] <Salty_> Discuss the future of the quest, the loss of momentum, etc?
  21. [02:11] <AcademiaNut> Ayup
  22. [02:11] <AcademiaNut> Try and give a bit more time for people to show up before getting too deep into things
  23. 01[02:11] <veekieislurking> probably turns getting too predictable
  24. 01[02:11] <veekieislurking> saps motivation
  25. [02:13] <AcademiaNut> That's part of it, yeah. Also, working out things feels like a chore instead of writing plot
  26. 01[02:13] <veekieislurking> well, partly I can see the causes
  27. 01[02:14] <veekieislurking> getting a hold of rituals, and the ascension clock changing things from smelling the flowers as we go to a goal oriented race
  28. 01[02:14] <veekieislurking> people get a lot more creative with trying random shit when they don't have to deal with half the thread yelling at them for ruining everything forever
  29. 01[02:15] <veekieislurking> not sure how to adjust for it except to push through to the timeskip and through the timeskip quickly though
  30. 03[02:16] * Bastuur2 ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  31. [02:16] <AcademiaNut> Yeah. These were of course meant to try to get people to stop faffing about instead of trying to do everything and then falling excessively far behind... and yet I think I have given too big of a toolbox at this point
  32. 01[02:16] <veekieislurking> probably :)
  33. 01[02:17] <veekieislurking> though without E3 here there's less scope creep :P
  34. 03[02:17] * Thvar ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  35. [02:17] <AcademiaNut> Which incidentally is what went wrong with Age of Strife, which then leads me to wanting to have a discussion since it feels fundamental to my style
  36. 01[02:18] <veekieislurking> it's an SV default, seen it in many quests
  37. 01[02:18] <veekieislurking> when given the option to choose Option A, Option B, or Option A+B with extra costs/risks
  38. 01[02:18] <veekieislurking> SV invariably goes for the combo platter
  39. 03[02:19] * Zhade ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  40. [02:19] <Thvar> Brief context?
  41. 01[02:19] <veekieislurking> so as you present options without closing off options
  42. 01[02:19] <veekieislurking> the desire is naturally to grab them all
  43. 01[02:19] <veekieislurking> this is true even despite the soft cap you have mechanically
  44. 01[02:19] <veekieislurking> due to rising costs as we grab more
  45. [02:19] <AcademiaNut> Yeah. Well, more that I try to start off small and focused and then things sprawl out of control
  46. 01[02:19] <veekieislurking> hmm
  47. 01[02:20] <veekieislurking> meta wise, and because E3 isn't here to murder me...I'd say you need to prune options regularly
  48. [02:20] <Thvar> Question is why we as players want to grab all the traits or what should be done about it?
  49. 03[02:20] * Familiar ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  50. 01[02:21] <veekieislurking> why AN winds up with players trying to grab all the things
  51. 01[02:21] <veekieislurking> secondly
  52. 01[02:21] <veekieislurking> set bonuses
  53. 03[02:21] * veekieislurking is now known as veekie
  54. 01[02:21] <veekie> you have been known to grant set bonuses
  55. 01[02:21] <veekie> for completed sets or duality bonuses
  56. 01[02:21] <veekie> this encourages completionism
  57. [02:22] <AcademiaNut> This is true
  58. 01[02:22] <veekie> so...fuse the two, when you earn set bonuses, you lose some access to stuff outside the set/duality
  59. [02:22] <Salty_> Beyond the sheer array of traits and powers that you've made available
  60. [02:22] <AcademiaNut> Yeah
  61. [02:22] <Salty_> I think the real problem is the scope and scale of plans
  62. 01[02:22] <veekie> the array is worldbuilding and part of the major charm
  63. 01[02:22] <veekie> it's one of the big draws
  64. 03[02:22] * Familiar_ ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  65. 01[02:22] <veekie> the problem is stopping people from grabbing every array
  66. 03[02:22] * Rak ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  67. [02:23] <Thvar> Ah, I think that's just the way people are mostly ;D. But I think the tradeoff of it taking us much longer could be a perfectly reasonable one as long as we more clearly feel the pain of that. Not being a local god yet hasn't gotten us in horribly much trouble, but it really seems like it could. Maybe if some regional god who started when we started rolls through and breaks our shit, then we won't be so greedy in the reroll ;D
  68. [02:23] <AcademiaNut> I think I have actually let power creep get away from me, in that you shouldn't be as strong as you are at this level
  69. 01[02:23] <veekie> @Thvar
  70. 01[02:23] <veekie> that's been tried
  71. [02:23] <Thvar> Ah
  72. 01[02:23] <veekie> exact opposite result has happened
  73. [02:23] <Thvar> I guess I don't follow that many quests
  74. 03[02:23] * Rak is now known as Rakuhn
  75. [02:23] <Thvar> So I wouldn't have had a chance to see it other places
  76. 01[02:23] <veekie> the ascension clock and apitulku are intended to do stuff like that see
  77. [02:23] <Salty_> AN, I don't think it's power creep that has gotten to you as much as it is scope creep.
  78. 02[02:23] * Familiar ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
  79. [02:24] <Thvar> Oh, that doesn't really do it much though
  80. 01[02:24] <veekie> but what actually happened is the thread, as a gestalt
  81. [02:24] <sidestory> best would be for us to lose some stuff
  82. [02:24] <Salty_> When you keep giving us more to do and more energy to do it with, plans grow larger and larger without end.
  83. [02:24] <Thvar> The ascension clock to some extent, but we wrecked apitulku much more than the other way around
  84. 01[02:24] <veekie> would focus on it to the exclusion of everything ele
  85. [02:24] <Salty_> And you have to roll and write for so many things.
  86. 01[02:24] <veekie> *else
  87. [02:24] <Thvar> If he had destroyed us or someone much stronger had come and killed us, I suspect we'd be more conservative with our next character
  88. 01[02:24] <veekie> which is to say, something intended for us to narrow our focus led to us throwing away the fun and interesting stuff to grab the focus
  89. 01[02:25] <veekie> all of them
  90. [02:25] <Thvar> We haven't really seen almost any consequences for taking so long.
  91. 01[02:25] <veekie> if denied?
  92. 01[02:25] <veekie> see what happened at the canyon
  93. 01[02:25] <veekie> we'd rather go ALL IN and die
  94. 01[02:25] <veekie> that's the thread gestalt psychology
  95. [02:25] <AcademiaNut> Yeah, this can have unfortunate effects
  96. [02:26] <sidestory> we could make it so that by grabbing opposite foci that we auto lose one, forcing us to concentrate on one spec
  97. [02:26] <Thvar> Not sure that's going to be true more than once though. A decent number of people in the thread have been wanting to ascend for a long time
  98. 01[02:26] <veekie> basically back to basics, gaining options need to prune options outside of the primary option cluster
  99. 01[02:26] <veekie> not a large number so much as a vocal number
  100. 01[02:26] <veekie> most of the thread is actually ambivalent, and changed by the mood of the update
  101. [02:26] <Thvar> If we die once due to taking too long to ascend (especially if this is obviously the issue), I wouldn't be surprised if enough people flip
  102. 01[02:27] <veekie> you have like....3-4 people on each side who actually dug their heels in
  103. 03[02:27] * Romv ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  104. 01[02:27] <veekie> the rest, I've seen vote for both sides
  105. 01[02:27] <veekie> depending on the atmosphere
  106. [02:27] <Romv> Hey everyone!
  107. 01[02:27] <veekie> it's not a matter of time increasing
  108. 02[02:27] * Bastuur2 ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
  109. 01[02:27] <veekie> you see...only AN really feels the time grind much
  110. 01[02:27] <veekie> the rest of us take what, half an hour to participate?
  111. 01[02:27] <veekie> 3-4 hours a day for the more rabid ones?
  112. 01[02:28] <veekie> that's not enough to make the bulk get bored as long as we keep getting new shit
  113. 01[02:28] <veekie> so currently, the biggest mistake for dragging would have been...Mystery Spirit tree stuff
  114. 02[02:28] * Familiar_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
  115. [02:28] <Thvar> Either way, less of an immediate solution and possibly not the most palatable to AN.
  116. 01[02:28] <veekie> prior to that, people were largely coherent
  117. [02:29] <AcademiaNut> At this point it can easily take me 3-4 hours to do a single update, and I've been breaking them up, and I often feel that I'm not putting in enough plot
  118. 01[02:29] <veekie> another element I think...is the busywork
  119. [02:29] <Thvar> Damn, whereas in the beginning it was more like?
  120. 01[02:29] <veekie> you know
  121. 01[02:29] <veekie> the harvest blessings
  122. 01[02:29] <veekie> rain, etc
  123. 01[02:29] <veekie> stuff we do every turn to keep the DE flowing
  124. 01[02:29] <veekie> and things working
  125. 01[02:30] <veekie> probably could shave that away and greatly simplify
  126. 01[02:30] <veekie> have a DE upkeep and income from steady stuff locked in and no need to process
  127. 03[02:30] * masterofmadness ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  128. 01[02:30] <veekie> sure, in theory we could abandon the actions to pull out some kind of huge bullshit
  129. 03[02:30] * Calanor ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  130. 01[02:31] <veekie> but in practice it's a choice that has been made many times and always the same choice
  131. 01[02:31] <veekie> so, if it's not actually a choice...
  132. 01[02:31] <veekie> no need to vote or write much about it right?
  133. [02:31] <AcademiaNut> In the beginning I might do 2-3 hours but I would do a shitload more plot
  134. [02:31] <Thvar> Right
  135. 01[02:32] <veekie> now it's a lot of administrative work
  136. 01[02:32] <veekie> move some DE here and there to run routine rolls a bajillion times
  137. 01[02:32] <veekie> cash out the DE
  138. [02:32] <Fumbles> We did kill and eat every plot element in reach, the only opponent left is crazy far away and somehow outclassed.
  139. [02:33] <sidestory> I think another problem is that we really do everything by ourselve, despite having a pantheon that could do some stuff for us we still keep insisting to do it ourselve, instead maybe let them do some action and let us act like a pantheon for once
  140. [02:33] <AcademiaNut> Gone from working out neat plot twists to accounting. And yeah, I'm probably going to have to take a hammer to the econ system
  141. 01[02:33] <veekie> all that I think is not useful to the quest except if you are obssessed with DE optimization
  142. 01[02:33] <veekie> which is also locking out voters
  143. [02:33] <AcademiaNut> I think I am unconsciously discouraging a lot of pantheon actions because it creates another layer of work on top of everything else
  144. 01[02:34] <veekie> I put in the time and effort anyway because sometimes I feel strongly enough about the turn to write a turn plan on mobile phone sometimes :P
  145. 01[02:34] <veekie> but hmm, yeah, that's another element of the leadership work
  146. 01[02:34] <veekie> we've even been doing the opposite of leadering and delegating
  147. 01[02:34] <veekie> because of the power and capability gap
  148. 01[02:35] <veekie> its usually more efficient to drain DE off our subordinates to do their work for them
  149. [02:35] <AcademiaNut> So I get all of these frustrations built up that end up building on each other and making each other worse
  150. 01[02:35] <veekie> hmm
  151. [02:35] <sidestory> then transform the work, simple don't give us the choice to do these think by ourselve anymore, want to read the stars go ask siri, want to do farming ask ourisee and jarx
  152. 01[02:35] <veekie> you know
  153. 01[02:35] <veekie> I'm sure a lot of people are going to kill me for this but
  154. 01[02:35] <veekie> ...kill off api
  155. [02:36] <Fumbles> I've been waiting for the 'tutorial' to end for a while, I'm down
  156. 01[02:36] <veekie> we'd get one short, very very noisy stretch of arguing about how to ascend
  157. 01[02:36] <veekie> and then you got the transition space
  158. [02:36] <sidestory> that is also an option, certainly would resolve some issues as the moment, but it really wouldn't resolve the problem
  159. 01[02:37] <veekie> one other thing is the ridiculous number of rolls
  160. 01[02:37] <veekie> early on, individual blessings were important
  161. 01[02:37] <veekie> now...is there even a need to roll for them anymore?
  162. [02:38] <AcademiaNut> Not really, no. I have ready been thinking that I will make the five year plan an abbreviated bit. Basically ask for priorities and toss out all of the actual numbers
  163. 01[02:38] <veekie> rolling and processing rolls are useful when the outcome is in doubt and you need to generate a semirandom outcome, but with this much power...
  164. 01[02:38] <veekie> that should help a lot
  165. [02:38] <Rakuhn> Thats an excellent idea AN
  166. [02:38] <Thvar> Or, just time-skip to where we start ascension. Give us some traits. Have us ascend with a bunch of crap and you can write interesting ascension quests and then have the mechanics be different in some way that solves some of the problems you're having.
  167. [02:38] <Thvar> Ah, yeah that makes sense too
  168. [02:38] <sidestory> yeah they are to much, maybe make one grad roll, or simple transfer the rolls to the rest of the pantheon reason it with that we are delegating our work, and simple have us jump in with some DE should something go wrong with their rolls
  169. 03[02:39] * Mannan ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  170. 02[02:39] * colah ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
  171. 03[02:39] * Kravot ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  172. 01[02:39] <veekie> with our economy at present...yeah the detailed optimization isn't important anymore
  173. 01[02:39] <veekie> we don't really get dispersed by overspending without being actively dumb IC
  174. 03[02:39] * Kravot_ ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  175. 02[02:40] * Kravot_ ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
  176. 01[02:40] <veekie> just set priorities, automatics(obviously turning off the harvest, rain, flood and sunshine spigot would do so much shit), and process until you run out of interesting things to write
  177. 01[02:41] <veekie> as a side note, more mini turns are fun to me, I'm not sure about them on the writing side
  178. 01[02:41] <veekie> but we do get more plottening happening even if they're resolving otherwise minor things
  179. 02[02:41] * Kravot ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
  180. 02[02:42] * Zhade ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
  181. 01[02:42] <veekie> and as an aside, on the encouragement end, I'm also noticing that crafting, transmuting exploring and leadership actions are discouraged in a meta sense
  182. 01[02:43] <veekie> doing those gets little feedback, so success is hard to sense
  183. [02:43] <sidestory> which is kind of stupid, especially the leadership actions, since we are so hardwired into them
  184. 01[02:44] <veekie> stuff like managing the rain, or growing the forest as well
  185. 01[02:44] <veekie> until growth and forest progress bars showed up, nobody wanted anything to do with them
  186. [02:44] <AcademiaNut> Yeah. Not sure what went wrong there. I think I might have started trying to go "You're distant" but then it became "Oh shit, I'm going to have to do things on the fly..." because I didn't have proper staple of minor characters
  187. 01[02:44] <veekie> mostly because voting for them doesn't seem to actually do much
  188. [02:44] <AcademiaNut> I'm bad at making minor characters on the fly because I try to handcraft them
  189. 01[02:44] <veekie> too much care eh
  190. [02:45] <AcademiaNut> And then if no one bites at any plothooks there...
  191. 01[02:45] <veekie> soul crushing
  192. [02:45] <AcademiaNut> Or worse, bite too hard
  193. 01[02:45] <veekie> I know from GMing tabletops
  194. 01[02:45] <veekie> heh
  195. [02:45] <sidestory> then don't give us the choice, force us to bite one of them
  196. 01[02:45] <veekie> see the starcrossed couple in the throwaway interlude
  197. 01[02:45] <veekie> @sidestory
  198. 01[02:45] <veekie> he didn't
  199. 01[02:46] <veekie> right after that interlude, people started plotting how to fulfill their wishes
  200. 01[02:46] <veekie> regardless of the lack of options
  201. 01[02:46] <veekie> though we probably did solve their woes with Everyone pregnant so happy ending :P
  202. 01[02:47] <veekie> meanwhile the whole goatman plot was largely ignored RIGHT until they crashed on the doorstep
  203. 01[02:47] <veekie> old GM problem, players never behave as expected
  204. [02:47] <sidestory> which you have to admit was kinda fun
  205. [02:47] <AcademiaNut> I am torn on that one, in that I want to follow up, but I have something planned that isn't going to work yet
  206. [02:48] <AcademiaNut> It's sort of why I got into questing in the first place: the feedback allows me to narrow down my options when I want to do all the things
  207. 03[02:48] * E3 ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  208. [02:48] <E3> What've I missed?
  209. 01[02:48] <veekie> minor asides, I'm really loving the Inspire to Dream, Rainbow, etc stuff, they're fun
  210. [02:48] <Salty_> We're tearing everything down
  211. 01[02:48] <veekie> but not optimal
  212. 01[02:48] <veekie> because they're random so no optimal plan has them
  213. [02:48] <AcademiaNut> We're going to throw all optimization out the window
  214. 01[02:49] <veekie> while E3 was away I spoke much heresy :P
  215. 01[02:49] <veekie> and was heard
  216. [02:49] <E3> Heavens to Murgatroid
  217. 03[02:49] * vanathor ([email protected]) has joined #AcademiaNutWork
  218. [02:49] <E3> Anyway uh... I'm fine with getting rid of optimization to a degree
  219. [02:49] <E3> System optimization in its own right is fun
  220. 01[02:49] <veekie> though can't be around long because I got flu and a headache and its 3AM
  221. [02:49] <E3> But when things stack up indefinitely it gets onerous
  222. [02:50] <vanathor> What I miss?
  223. 01[02:50] <veekie> so I guess the debate will swing the other way
  224. [02:50] <E3> Send me the logs you have thus far veekie?
  225. [02:50] <vanathor> ^
  226. [02:50] <E3> just PM me a pastebin or somethin'
  227. [02:50] <Salty_> Let me put it this way.
  228. [02:50] <E3> But eh, I burned out enough that I doubt I'll fight too hard to keep things as they are now :p
  229. [02:51] <Salty_> When you gave us all the options and the ability to micromanage that you did, you made the game nothing but an exercise in optimization
  230. [02:51] <E3> That... is very true.
  231. [02:51] <E3> I like there being resources to manage
  232. [02:51] <E3> But I think there need to be some broader choices to balance it out
  233. [02:51] <Salty_> Cut things down, consolidate others, and you can maybe get back to choices based in characterization and plot
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