* Now talking on #hypnoseduction
* Topic for #hypnoseduction is: Learn, chat, trance, and make friends | Room trances happen randomly without warning | Nicks prefixed with ~&@%=+ are approved hypnotists, but anyone is welcome to hypnotize. | http://pastebin.com/QB3qwFh9
* Topic for #hypnoseduction set by ctrl-alt-me!CtrlAltMe@JustTrance.net (Tue Sep 19 10:08:45 2017)
* Replaying up to 20 lines of pre-join history spanning up to 120 seconds
<twilightL> The correct answer is... A! Why doesn't wounding a passerby count as assault?
<twilightL> This was kind of a mean question. The answer is A, but this is two cases of attempted murder
<twilightL> You'll get charged with the same crime, even if someone just happened to get wrapped up in it
<ace_freddie{SQ}> @__@
<ace_freddie{SQ}> that makes sense, twilightL
<subm^> We are suppose to have a  discussion, led by q, in 3 minutes, but I do not see q   :-(
<ace_freddie{SQ}> maybe he likes grand entrances
* Spiral gives channel operator status to q
<Cortana> Teaser for q - Feel free to stare deeply into my text, as you can probably feel excited and relaxed, as it can be fun to relax your mind of resistance to my text and feel wide awake right now :) - to view the full profile type: !view q
<SeducingSpirit> welcome q, try not to notice feeling relaxed and aroused
<Saundra> well here he is
<twilightL> Speak of the Devil and he shall appear before you
<subm^> yay!     yay!    q is here   Welcome!
<subm^> hi hi q
<subm^> hai hai twilightL
* Saundra smiles
<subm^> Heye Heye Saundra   :-)
<dareon> I'll be back later
* subm^ hugs Saundra warmly
* TekuSP (~TekuSP@spiral-4HCIOS.broadband17.iol.cz) has joined
<Cortana> Teaser for TekuSP - hi - to view the full profile type: !view TekuSP
<SeducingSpirit> please join us TekuSP, you may be seduced deeply now or later as you prefer
* Saundra hugs dareon
<dareon> (hugs)
<q> hi hi subm^ and Saundra
<subm^> Hi TekuSP    welocme
<TekuSP> Hi subm^
<superherokid> hey Saundra
<italsta25> hello Saundra
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<Saundra> hi superherokid
<Saundra> hi italsta25
<TekuSP> Do you know when nod will be here? Or when he is here usually? subm^
<superherokid> how are ya?
<subm^> We are going to have a discussion, led by q, with the topic  "Beliefs"
<Saundra> I think we left the topic pretty general, "beliefs"
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<SeducingSpirit> so good of you to come coyote, please don't worry if you notice you cannot worry
<q> ah yes, a general topic is great for flexibility
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<Saundra> and it can be briefer and with questions or ideas
<q> indeed
<Saundra> but q, you are leading
<subm^> TekuSP:    I do not know of any schedule when nod visits here, TekuSP
<q> starting now Saundra :)
<q> Beliefs include our ideas about the world
<Saundra> he is most often here in morning and evening (at least pacific time)
<TekuSP> Oh okay...
<q> 1. beliefs can serve as lenses or filters
<Saundra> nods
<q> 2. beliefs can help explain the world around us, and make it easier to understand
<q> 3. beliefs are often incomplete and subjective
<q> 4. some beliefs can be false or limiting to the holder of those beliefs
<q> this means that much of our subjective experience flows through filters and differs from person to person due to differences in beliefs
<Saundra> is all perception affected by beliefs?
<q> I would say that all perception is impacted at some level by beliefs
<Saundra> nods
<q> while our simple algebra skills may not be belief oriented, our interest in mathematics is
<subm^> In essence, beliefs are what  person believes to be true, q?
<Saundra> well is acceptance of numbers a belief?
<q> indeed I would say so subm^ and Saundra
<Saundra> seems it depends a little on definition of a belief
<q> generally, there are levels of belief, from vague and abstract
<q> like the meaning and purpose of life and what things mean
<callgirl-tina> Right through to JFK
<q> and concrete beliefs that are very specific
<Saundra> you sort of have to believe in anything you see or hear
<q> not schizophrenics Saundra ;)
<q> there are cases where we can stick so strongly to our beliefs that reality becomes a distant and foggy idea
<Saundra> well I have known some who very much believe their hallucinations
<q> indeed
<Saundra> yes exactly
<q> and there are belief structures that tend to change the way we interpret what we see and hear
<Saundra> so beliefs determine out reality??
<subm^> But there is great variability, Saundra, it how one interprets what they see and here and can hence come up with varied beliefs
<q> they determine our subjective reality I would suppose
<Saundra> nods
<q> of course if I step out in front of a car driving on a freeway, I will still be dead regardless of weather I believe it is there or not
<q> that is where belief can become dangerious
<Saundra> do we learn beliefs from reality or do beliefs determine our reality?
<italsta25> i think it can go either way
<q> I would say that we start out being exposed to ideas and things in our real enviornment
<q> and those help shape our beliefs
<q> but we can make mistakes and mental shortcuts
<subm^> both, I think Saundra
<Saundra> nods
<q> but we also interact with reality based on our beliefs
<q> so that will change reality
<q> (our actions that come from our beliefs)
<Saundra> how do we form a belief?  something like religion?
<italsta25> some people are exposed to belief systems before they have a lot of experience in "reality"
<subm^> Out beliefs are our reality, aren;t they?
<q> a rather extreme example would be the stock market, if most the investors believe falsey that this year the DOW Jones will fall based on some model, then this year the DOW Jones will fall, because they will sell
<Saundra> yes italsta25
<q> indeed we can be exposed and indoctrinated
<q> or we can form it based on our experience
<q> beliefs help simplify and explain a huge and complicated world
<Saundra> so do beliefs come from what others tell us?
<italsta25> because when you are exposed to beliefs first then you can use it to form realityl
<q> they can Saundra
<TekuSP> "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
<TekuSP>  - Bible. Just thought I would put here part of old book I do not like usually.
<Saundra> well said italsta25
<Saundra> well yes TekuSP
<q> hmm the bible is a source of belief, and sometimes its true
<italsta25> not to say that people with experience can't come to a certain new belief
<Saundra> seems belief is stressed as a core of being Christian?
<q> sometimes you can recieve what you pray for, but it may or may not be related to the act of prayer itself
<q> I would say so Saundra
<q> christianity has a hard time with facts and consistency due to the poor translation of the bible by the Vatican during the KJV release
<subm^> Religious beliefs are often very strongly held and often cannot be proven..but are accepted, I think
<Saundra> so there is no direct experience but some believe very strongly
<q> this is where confirmation bias comes in
<subm^> Absolutely, Saundra
<q> if we expect something to true and look for something to be true that we already belief
<Saundra> where does it come from since religions and believe are pretty universal
<q> believe*
<q> I would think there are two sources of religion Saundra
<Saundra> confirmation bias - important - can you say more q?
<q> indeed I can
<Saundra> relevant to internet?
<q> confirmation bias is where new information we see is noticed more readily if it agrees with what we already expect or believe
<Saundra> nods
<q> and information that goes against that is not given as much attention because it does not confirm our own biases
* q knows he has confirmation biases of his own
<Saundra> so a believe is confirmed and becomes stronger
<q> indeed
<subm^> and if it idoes not confirm what we think, it is discard without genuine thought, q
<q> agenerally I would expect so subm^
<q> unless we try to intentionally look at other viewpoints with an open mind
<ace_freddie{SQ}> often, but not always subm^ -- imo
<q> and even then our own identity tends to be wrapped up in our beliefs
<Saundra> so you go to church and everyone says yes that is what you should believe...  confirmation makes the belief?
<q> I would expect so
<q> here is an example
* q is not trying to dismantle anyone's religion here
<italsta25> core beliefs are things that we want to be true, so when faced with new information we take and it make it conform the way we need
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<SeducingSpirit> greeting Katy, please try not to think of not thinking when you slip in mindless oblivion
<q> if I prey for something and it does not happen I can say "It must not have been meant to happen"
<Saundra> so I go to twitter and get a list of people to follow who agree with me?
<Saundra> hi Katy
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<q> but if I prey for something and it does happen then it confirms that preyer works
<Saundra> we are doing a discussion on belief systems
<q> my brain will only tend to remember things that reinforce my belief systems
<Saundra> nods
<q> or remember those things better
<Saundra> can hypnosis change or create beliefs?
<q> studies show that being exposed to facts that hurt one's beliefs that have defined our own personalities actually activates the same area of the brain as pain
<q> ah
<q> indeed hypnosis can be used to make a person more receptive to discussion
<q> and questioning of a belief
<q> but it depends very much on the individual
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<Saundra> yes questions beliefs can trigger a marked upset
<q> many beliefs tend to reinforce our own ego
<q> or help us find meaning or purpose in life
<Saundra> nods
<q> also we tend to have another force at work with beliefs
<q> at least ones like religions
<Saundra> so suppose you want to change a belief (last discussion)
<Saundra> need to be incremental?
<q> we tend to make decisions based on our beliefs, and these commitments we like to be consistent with our prior commitments
<q> ah yes
<q> in a hypnotic state you can try to make incremental changes
<italsta25> if you want to change belief you need to consider what the other person values
<Saundra> if go too fast you trigger defense?
<q> or for a very temporary and fleeting effect you can make someone during the session have a total belief change
<q> but
<q> the fast method tends to be treated as roleplay by the mind
<q> it does not really last unless its incremental
<Saundra> interesting
<subm^> Seems to be that confirmation  bias  is why is occurring more and more in our society- we have our beliefs and simply discard beliefs of others without even considering them. Thus producing strongly opposed groups with little sharing of ideas and discourse.
<Saundra> yes and a real problem with internet it seems
<q> it also does not help that we tie our identities to our own beliefs as much as we do
<q> and we tie our friends in with our beliefs
<Saundra> nods
<q> and make life decisions based on them
<q> and prop our ego up on them
<q> it is really asking a lot of a person to change their beliefs
<italsta25> the thing about the internet is it makes it easier than ever to go to a place of likeminded people and shut out everything else
<Saundra> yes I'm messing with twitter and it keeps pushing me to only see what I believe
<q> and using facts at them wont help as much as trying to question softly
<subm^> Excellent point italsta25
<q> yes italsta25
<q> the internet is full of echo chambers
<q> sadly
<italsta25> but again, to persuade, it's important to understand the value system of the other person
<q> ^^
<q> of course
<subm^> We  seek those who agree with us
<TekuSP> Hmm
<flora> Penny for your thoughts? I don't have any in my head... Thoughts, I mean, not pennies. Though I don't have any pennies in my head either.
<q> interesting MRI research regarding beliefs
<Saundra> so the older I get the harder it is to have an "open" mind
<Saundra> MRI?
<q> attacking a belief with facts and reality activates the area of the brain associated with pain
<q> physical pain
<q> however
<subm^> My mind must be really closed then, Saundra
<italsta25> i was reading a study about liberals and conservatives, and persuasion fails because each side tends to argue with points that matter to them, rather than using the other sides value systems to argue points
<Saundra> nods
<q> showing someone something that agrees with their belief actually activates the part of the brain associated with pleasure and attention
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<Saundra> once you have a perspective it is hard to change
<subm^> Yep, italsta25    That is what I was alluding to above
<q> its also one reason debate moderators tend to make a critical mistake
<TekuSP> Interesting.
<q> they say a slippery slope argument is a fallacy
<Saundra> do any drugs like antidepressants affect the MRI results?
<q> but people tend to migrate beliefs based on comparative change
<Saundra> how so?
<q> Saundra, as far as I can tell it only changes the magnitude
<subm^> I see slippery slopes often in political commentary
<Saundra> comparitive change?
<q> in example
<TekuSP> Drugs can probably affect MRI results... depends what drug...
<q> people who are christian seldom just go "I will become an atheist today"
<Saundra> s\nods
<q> they start be questioning the idea of god's plan
<q> or maybe become a buddhist
<q> or some similar belief set
<q> eventually they might become a satanist or morman or something similar
<q> and later they might drop religion all together
<Saundra> seems a bad event sometimes triggers change - like loss of a child
<q> its a ^^
<q> sadly yes
<italsta25> everyone's different
<q> or sometimes its a lack of answers
<Saundra> but good events not so much
<italsta25> sometimes in the face of tragedy, people double down
<subm^> And good events sometimes perpetuate no change
<q> that is true italsta25
<q> that happened with some other religions and their doomesday predections
<q> when it did not happen a few left instantly
<Saundra> nods
<q> others stayed and tried to spread the religion with amazing dedication
<italsta25> if your child is taken early it's because god has a plan
<q> they "doubled down" so to speak
<q> yeah italsta25
<Saundra> yes defending a belief
<Saundra> people hate to change
<q> that is easier to belief emotionally than your child just died of other causes
<q> or that god did it on purpose
<q> or whatever else might go through your mind
<q> or their mind
<Saundra> why did God do it
<q> ^
<q> and thats a hard one to answer
<q> sometimes impossible
<subm^> Stock  market prognosticator often double down for a zillion years and are wrong for half a zillion of those years, and finally get it right once
<q> same with gablers
<q> gamblers*
<q> yep
<subm^> agreed q
* TekuSP nods
<q> our beliefs are a huge component to our psychology
<callgirl-tina> If God done that I'd hope to go to Hell because spending an eternity with a monster like that would be far worse  ;-)
<q> and believe it or not they even effect our biology and brain chemistry
<subm^> Then they "know" it will occur again
<q> it seems that the other parts of our mind can effect our beliefs, and our beliefs can affect the other parts of our mind
<Saundra> ok this is really good but don't want to burn out q - please continue but only if does not interfere with your reality <smiles>
<q> lol sure
<q> anyway beliefs are sometimes distinct from say
<q> behavioral associations
<q> we can believe a spider is harmless
<q> but still be afriad
<q> afraid*
<q> our behavioral learning seems to run in background
<Saundra> seems beliefs have a strong effect  on personality - what I believe I am?
<q> indeed most of what we are
<q> shapped by memory and preexisting beliefs
<q> and expectations
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<italsta25> i think that's what makes core beliefs so hard to change
<italsta25> because they become a part of our identity
<subm^> So do we really have the belief if we are afraid of the spider, q?
<italsta25> changing a belief means part of me needs changing
<q> We may possess the belief, but the behavioral association may remain
<TekuSP> Question is, do our subconscious have own beliefs?
<Saundra> so what if you have amnesia? do beliefs change?
<q> eventually one will win out over the other subm^
<Saundra> yes TekuSP
<q> eventually a person will either accept the spider, or accept the fear and change the belief slightly
<TekuSP> Beliefs are based on your personality. Your personality is based on your past memories too.
<Saundra> but subconscious beliefs are feelings I think
<TekuSP> So yes, with amnesia you will have different beliefs.
<q> subconscious beliefs are probably more associative
<q> less declaritory
<Saundra> nods
<q> you can see a comparison bias in a sales negotiation
<q> if the first number we hear is large
<q> we are more likely to base the next offers on the first one
<Saundra> is right and wrong, good and bad basically belief systems?
<q> our belief of value is a belief also I would think
<q> I would say so Saundra
<q> I don't think any objective morals exist
<q> or at least not provable
<subm^> So their is an inner decision ultimately made about the spider, which might radically change the belief   Either confirm the fear of the spider or totally discard the fear, q?
<q> generally
<q> but that takes place in steps
<q>  a person feels stress from the contradiction
<q> cognitive dissonance*
<q> we like to be consistent
<Saundra> seems belief in a specific - like Jesus is learned but feelings of right and wrong might be genetic? hard wired
<q> and when we are not it makes us question our meaning and beliefs, so we often force ourselves to resolve contradictions
<Saundra> so an additional line on cognitive dissonance?
<q> hmm possibly to some degree Saundra
<q> ah
<q> I would say that we experience cognitive dissonance when two beliefs or our actions contradict one another
<q> if we notice that contradiction is creates stress
<q> anxiety
<q> we crave meaning and patterns
<Saundra> like when we have two beliefs that do not fit?
<q> such contradiction makes the universe and world look more chaotic
<q> yep
<q> like to be a christian and still believe in evolution
<q> its a contradiction
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<q> eventually one belief or the other will start to erode
<Saundra> naw you can work around old testament
<TekuSP> Nah, they solved it. Took them few years.
<q> you can lol, but it often causes some nagging issues for a catholic
<TekuSP> Contradiction is when you love someone but hate them too.
<q> right
<subm^> Can cognitive dissonance cause great emotional difficulties that anxiety occurs?
<q> one example is that I believe that I am moral
<q> but I am pushed to act in a way that goes against those morals
<q> I will feel stress of a sort
<Saundra> can love exist without hate... hmm..   another discussion
<q> probably thats a big one Saundra
<Saundra> smiles
<q> human relationships are complicated when we dig into the details
<q> we can though see cognitive dissonance in Hypnosis
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<SeducingSpirit> welcome nightshade, may I hang up your coat and take your mind?
<q> if we get someone to accept a suggestion that is against key values it creates anxiety, stress, and breaks the trance
<subm^> hi nightshade
<nightshade> hello
* flora hides her toys and tries to look innocent, smiling as nightshade shows up
<Saundra> nods yes q
<Saundra> hi nightshade
<subm^> We are having a discussion on beliefs, nightshade
<q> cognitive dissonance does occur especially in political beliefs
<Saundra> nods
<q> in example when speeches are very persuasive
<nightshade> oh religious political or otherwise?
<q> like Trump or Obama for example
<q> all beliefs
<Saundra> mostly other
<q> just using political as an example
<q> Republicans that manage to be persuaded by Obama's speeches felt a type of dissonance
<Saundra> nods
<subm^> all beliefs, nightshade
<nightshade> well I believe that tacos are better than burrito's
<q> same with a christian that begins to notice contradictions in their doctrine with their actions
<q> they either eventually conform to their idea of morals
<q> or they ditch the morals alltogether
<q> like in example if their job requires it
<Saundra> and with the dissonance they look for problems?
<q> they look at things and in a state of high anxiety they resolve it anyway they can
<q> sometimes they dont think to
<q> they just transfer the anxiety and stress on other people
<Saundra> so what makes an effective speech - avoid finding fault?
<q> part of it is that your speech needs to validate the people you are talking to
<Saundra> nods'
<q> and then after pacing, lead them to imagine a better future
<q> but
<callgirl-tina> Know your audience
<Saundra> nods
<q> if your speech is effective on people with opposing beliefs you may notice increased aggression
<nightshade> effective speech is a oxymoron, humans respond to non verbal cues better than words. words only end in disaster but rather it is like a controlled burn or a bonfire is dependent upon empathy
<Saundra> need to know their assumptions and beliefs
<q> in example JFKs speech about nuclear arms
<q> some people were moved in a good way
<q> others were moved but upset
<Saundra> it is amazing how different groups use same fact in opposite ways
<q> or Trump's speech and the following riots
<Saundra> nods
<q> yeah it is like two separate realities
<q> the human mind is great at mental shortcuts
<q> without mental shortcuts the world would be exhausting and overwhelming
<q> beliefs I think offer a kind of security
<Saundra> well if belief determin reality then it is two realities
<Saundra> absolutly q
<subm^> Is this where NLP comes into play....build rap pot and try to slowly change the beliefs block by block, q?
<q> I would say two subjective realities ;)
<Saundra> lack of belief is very insecure
<q> yeah I would say so subm^
<q> lack of belief of some kind is uncertainty
<q> and uncertainty is inherently unstable, even the act of looking at it changes it
<q> also nightshade I would say so
<q> a good speech must include coherent non verbals
<Saundra> very apparent at near death - dramatic difference if established belief system
<q> but you can have comparatively good speeches and bad speeches
<q> ah
<q> indeed
<q> deathbed confessions and religion changes
<Saundra> maybe to lesser degree with every action
<q> possibly
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<q> its part of the reason we have cognitive dissonance
<Saundra> nods
<twilightL> Hehe, Persona 5 is all about that
<Saundra> a game?
<twilightL> Yes
<q> the Korean POW camps were able to be quite effective at changing beliefs without using torture
<Saundra> i need to look it up
<Saundra> how q?
<q> they used commitment and consistency
<Saundra> ok more?
<q> they started out with small requests to commit to saying things about the wonders of communism and flaws with america
<q> then discussed it in discussion groups
<q> once commited soldiers were more likely to make greater ones
<q> eventually these grew until they joined the liberation army
<Saundra> i assume having reinforment of group was key?
<q> eventually cognitive dissonance kicked in
<q> they tossed away all affilitation with capitalism to resolve their state
<Saundra> nods
<q> mostly it was the act of making a commitment in front of others Saundra
<q> similar to the billboard experiment
<q> The billboard experiment started out with a request for people to place a driver saftey flyer on their window
<q> those that committed to the flyer were much more likely
<Saundra> smiles
<q> 70%
<q> to place a huge ugly wooden driver saftey billboard in their yards
<q> it was effective
<Saundra> this has been amazing!  and want to do more
<q> indeed Saundra :)
<Saundra> but I have a work meeting :(
<q> I also have to go make dinner
<Saundra> wbb please continue if time
<Saundra> oh ok
<q> anyway I will add one recommendation before I go
<Saundra> hmm?
<flora> Penny for your thoughts? I don't have any in my head...
<q> If anyone here wants to have a better grasp of ideas and persasion
<q> I reccommend the two books
<TekuSP> Flora, give me penny, then I will think.
<flora> I don't know what that is. Sorry :(
<q> Habit and the book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion Saundra
<subm^> You might also visit q's room.
<q> ah yes #nlp
<q> great topic :)
<q> anyway very nice chatting all :-)
<subm^> Thank you q- superior  presentation!!
<subm^> Appreciate your preparation and  wonderful articulation of the content :-)
<q> thank you all for having it :)
* Saundra hugs
* q hugs back
<Saundra> think about more - omething next week?
<subm^> Genuine thanks to all who participated!
<TekuSP> Mhm...
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<TekuSP> Interesting discussion, it was nice change for me....
<subm^> Glad you enjoyed it TekuSP