Eric at Oxford SilverScript June 20 2017

Eric at Oxford SilverScript June 20 2017

Eric at Oxford Blavatnik June 20 2017 https://youtu.be/Zi2aLuJkdkc SilverScript

Streamed live on 20 Jun 2017

How do we retain the best and brightest in the public sector? What public sector values should we aim for? How do we ensure impartiality when politics becomes more partisan, or when the political climate becomes increasingly volatile and diverse?

or? How do we ensure impartiality when politics becomes more partisan, or when the political climate becomes increasingly volatile and diverse?

A panel discussion with:
Mr Aigboje Aig-Imoukhuede, Founder and Chairman, Africa Initiative for Governance
Mr Eric Braverman, President, Eric and Wendy Schmidt Group
Ms Thuli Madonsela, Chief Patron, Thuli Madonsela Foundation
Professor Bo Rothstein, Professor of Government and Public Policy, Blavatnik School of Government (Chair)

This discussion is part of the Challenges of Government Conference 2017 at the Blavatnik School of Government, University of Oxford.

http://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/cogc2017

Politics across the world is in tumult. A new populism has emerged from both left and right. Globalisation is under attack. Across every continent, electorates have lost patience with the establishment elites who have traditionally run countries and international institutions. The ‘left behind’ are stepping forward. This year, the Blavatnik School of Government’s annual Challenges of Government Conference focuses on this revolution: the breakdown in trust, the reasons behind it, and what an effective response might look like. Those taking part include global leaders and practitioners who are striving daily to address the crisis, as well as leading academics who will set out their latest cutting-edge ideas.


Blavatnik School of Government,
University of Oxford
http://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/

 Transcript
0:02
okay welcome everyone to this panel deep
0:08
divided deep dive parallel session a new
0:12
set of public sector values
0:15
my name is Moo Rothstein I work here at
0:17
the Blavatnik School of Government and a
0:19
professor in public policy and
0:21
government used to work in Sweden until
0:24
I was hijacked to come here one and a
0:27
half years ago I have three great
0:30
panelists here as their BIOS are on the
0:34
program so I will just introduce them
0:37
very shortly I have Erik Braverman who
0:40
is the president of the Erik and Wendy
0:43
Schmidt group welcome Erik I have to Lee
0:49
madam sailor who is the chief patron of
0:51
the 2d modern sailor foundation and she
0:54
is currently a Harvard advanced
0:56
leadership fellow for this year most
0:58
welcome and last but not least I have
1:01
mr. egg a Makita who is the founder and
1:04
chairman of the Africa initiative for
1:07
governance and I would like to start
1:12
with you mr. egg I'm okay that you have
1:16
written that the major challenge for
1:22
Nigeria is a failed public service
1:26
sector characterized by poor performance
1:29
and self-interest so my first question
1:32
is this which values would you like to
1:35
see if not self-interest in the public
1:37
service Thanks book and I want to
1:45
appreciate the Blavatnik school for the
1:49
annual conference
1:50
I think the each I looked at the various
1:56
panels and I kept saying I'd love to be
1:59
on that panel I'd love to be on that
2:00
panel and you know it seems to be that
2:02
you know all the right topics are being
2:04
covered certainly now I don't work for
2:07
government I never worked for government
2:09
in Nigeria anywhere else my parents do
2:12
work for government I I call myself a
2:14
civil service you know child and I have
2:18
seen government in Nigeria in other
2:22
African countries up front you know
2:24
almost a front-row seat I know when it
2:27
works and I don't know when it doesn't
2:28
it doesn't work and there has been this
2:31
gradual slide from relatively high
2:36
performing public service standards in a
2:39
number of governments over the past 30
2:41
to 40 years you can correlate this
2:44
actually with the great decline if you
2:46
like in living standards and the
2:48
provision of public goods across across
2:50
Africa there are many reasons for this
2:52
and I think probably the greatest one is
2:58
the adoption of military-type rule
3:03
across many African countries
3:06
dictatorships in different forms that
3:08
basically broke down the value system
3:11
that makes public servants perform and
3:13
the absence of of this value system as
3:17
basically you know created an
3:19
environment where it's very very
3:22
difficult to choose to do the right
3:24
thing as a public servant and you know
3:25
I'd like to go into that but before I do
3:28
that you know coming from the private
3:30
sector
3:31
I tell Nigerians I tell Africans that
3:34
you know I have I have created a
3:37
business or other number of businesses
3:41
and the one thing I've found in creating
3:44
businesses in Africa is that you can
3:46
work so hard to provide value through
3:49
the private sector
3:50
and with the stroke of a pen somebody in
3:54
public service can render tool in
3:57
English can destroy a great idea can
4:00
destroy a great product
4:01
okay simply by by by signing a piece of
4:06
paper and so public servants have
4:08
immense power to do great good or great
4:11
evil depending on you know their
4:14
capacity unfortunately I think there are
4:17
more stories of of evil than
4:19
than good there are stories of good but
4:22
certainly if there were more stories of
4:24
good I think you know most African
4:25
countries would be very high up in the
4:28
in the Development Index measures that
4:32
you have you know across across the
4:33
world there are three critical values I
4:36
think are key for for the public service
4:42
to thrive across Africa I think the
4:43
first and this is not in any order of
4:45
importance but the first I'll speak to
4:47
is courage and courage not in the sense
4:53
of Superman and superwoman
4:54
you know you tear off your your your
4:56
shirt and below is this you know great
4:59
chest of of correct noise so it's not
5:02
the absence of fear we're talking about
5:03
like Mandela said is the is the ability
5:07
to conquer your fear what are you scared
5:11
of the intimidation the threats the big
5:17
man you know that they're going to come
5:18
across and just society you know how to
5:22
as a whole who would ask you why do you
5:24
want to raise your head you know about
5:26
the purpose and do the right thing when
5:28
your head could be taking off for it so
5:32
you are really speaking about the fact
5:34
that for the for the for the public
5:37
servants in in say Nigeria who chooses
5:42
to do the right thing he has to have the
5:46
courage to tell even his family and
5:47
people in his village that I'm gonna do
5:49
the right thing because it's the right
5:51
thing to do
5:53
I think a great sense of justice is also
5:55
important and what I that is what
5:59
propels me and I think it's a great
6:00
sense of justice that leads to the anger
6:02
that motivates people to say I draw a
6:05
line in a line in the sand and I'm going
6:07
to I'm going to fight for what is right
6:09
and the third is is a sense of service
6:12
and service I think would be linked to
6:16
the concept of citizenship because
6:18
across Africa you have public servants
6:22
who serve but who don't serve the state
6:24
and who don't serve the people and they
6:27
serve the person who put them there the
6:29
person who protects them and you know
6:31
and and so on so I mean
6:33
in a sense we have to deal seriously
6:36
with these issues and let me tell you
6:39
one thing though the last thing I would
6:42
do is look at the public servants in
6:45
Africa or maybe in across you know other
6:49
other geographies as well and see a bad
6:51
person because the truth of the matter
6:53
is that if I put anybody in this room in
6:56
the typical circumstances societal
7:00
conditions within which these public
7:02
servants operate it'd be very very hard
7:05
for you not to find yourself doing what
7:07
they do and I'm not talking a sense of
7:09
taking bribes I'm just saying simply not
7:13
doing the right thing because it's the
7:14
convenient and easy thing to do thank
7:17
you so much my next questions goes to
7:20
Eric so in about the year before the
7:25
election a presidential election there
7:29
was a new figure from Gallup in the
7:32
United States saying that 79 percent of
7:35
Americans agree that and I cite
7:38
corruption is widespread throughout the
7:42
government in this country now this is a
7:45
little puzzling because of the surveys
7:48
that are done of real experience have
7:51
you been asked to pay a bribe and so
7:52
it's just a fraction of this is four or
7:55
five percent so how do you explain this
7:58
puzzling figure that 79 80 percent of
8:01
Americans think that corruption is
8:03
widespread in the United States thank
8:06
you and thank you also to the blackness
8:09
school for the invitation and to sit
8:11
with these very same panelists thank you
8:14
you know it's it's a puzzling result but
8:19
one thing I think we can think about is
8:21
that corruption can mean different
8:22
things
8:23
it can mean paying a bribe but it can
8:25
also mean is the system working for the
8:29
people and I think all around the world
8:31
as we look we see that people think the
8:35
systems are not working for them and
8:37
there are a lot of reasons for them to
8:39
be right you know the question for me
8:41
when we talk about public values is not
8:43
only about corruption
8:45
and not only about what we don't want
8:48
it's also as we started to hear it's
8:51
also about you know what we do want and
8:54
I think there are a couple just
8:55
important things to keep in mind which
8:57
I'll say recognizing that every country
8:59
is different first is that there
9:02
actually is a starting point for most
9:04
countries in the round the world that
9:05
write down their values and societies
9:08
are telling us we're not living up to
9:09
them second thing is that all of the
9:12
paths regardless of what political
9:14
ideology you have on the right or the
9:16
left and I believe we should respect all
9:17
of them you know all of the paths
9:20
require us not only to engage people but
9:22
also to give people ways to act ways to
9:26
act in defining and building their own
9:28
societies we've talked a lot about the
9:30
first here at the conference and I think
9:32
we should talk more about the second and
9:34
there are lots of different ways we
9:36
could do it giving people ways to
9:37
participate in the work of governing
9:40
bringing business as you describe
9:42
philanthropy where I come from
9:44
government or individual citizens ways
9:46
that they can partner together to build
9:48
those values and also making government
9:50
more responsive using the technologies
9:52
we have we can do so much with machine
9:55
learning and otherwise to encourage
9:57
better service to people and so I think
9:59
there are a lot of ways we can think
10:01
about what those positive values would
10:02
be thank you and I quested to you so you
10:07
have been very much engaged in in how
10:11
the public sector in South Africa should
10:15
work and I have a question that is also
10:17
puzzling to us as researchers and that
10:20
is although that would you see that the
10:23
values that the public sector in a
10:25
country like South Africa would be very
10:28
special because of its history or
10:30
culture or are they basically the same
10:33
like in for example the Netherlands all
10:38
right well thank you thank you for this
10:40
opportunity and congratulations to the
10:44
school and the University for including
10:48
a session on values and because a lot of
10:52
things rise and fall because of aliens
10:55
either because we don't have a state dem
10:57
stated or
10:58
because they stated but we don't comply
11:00
with them a South African Vale is
11:03
different from other countries in so far
11:05
as the publishing South African dailies
11:09
in the public service different from
11:10
other countries yes and no I noticed in
11:17
in the brief about the session for
11:20
example that it said do we need new
11:23
values and I pondered to that and said
11:26
do we really need new values o do we
11:30
just need to remember there the old ones
11:33
and reinforce them and leave them if I
11:38
look at a country like South Africa that
11:40
moved from oppression from a state that
11:48
was opaque opaque and served the
11:51
interests of a few their values the
11:55
emphasis in terms of failures would be
11:57
different from a country that has had a
12:00
Noma democracy for a long time and
12:03
you've chosen Holland for them in the
12:06
South African Constitution the
12:08
foundational values for example include
12:10
the achievement of equality in other
12:14
countries they would have the value of
12:15
equality but in our case we assumed that
12:18
there was no equality or there was some
12:22
equality and we needed to achieve
12:24
equality
12:24
hence we put the value of the
12:27
achievement of equality as one of the
12:30
foundational values another foundational
12:32
value in section 1 of the Constitution
12:34
is human dignity because again they had
12:38
been a lot of violation of human dignity
12:41
in the past and the new society had to
12:44
be based on the entrenchment of human
12:49
dignity in social justice broadly was
12:52
also one of the things that we a problem
12:54
in the past which is about equality
12:56
about inequality about poverty about
13:00
really an inclusive society and it's a
13:03
very that is stated in the preamble in
13:05
is also reinforced in the
13:09
in the bill of rights in the foundation
13:12
of values and in many other parts of the
13:15
Constitution but just lastly I would
13:18
have thought that in to the extent that
13:20
we are the same I would say the
13:24
foundational values of every democracy
13:26
should be three at least for the civil
13:30
servants I think they should be
13:33
competent because if we want to choose a
13:36
few among us to run our office they have
13:39
they have to be the most competent among
13:41
us and that's required a very democracy
13:46
the second value that is required in
13:49
every democracy is trustworthiness and
13:52
the people that we're going to ask to
13:55
look after our fears when we're not
13:58
going to be there should be transmitted
14:00
it becomes even worse in the 21st
14:02
century where we're so distant from the
14:04
state the state is not just a little
14:06
village and the last one which is a
14:09
requirement in every democracy is
14:11
selflessness whether you're talking
14:15
about a civil servant or you're talking
14:17
about the politicians we're talking
14:18
about judges you really do need people
14:21
who are the most competent who are the
14:23
most selfless and who are the most
14:25
trustworthy to look after our face okay
14:29
then I have a question to all of you
14:31
during my academic career in this area
14:33
there have been two very strong but very
14:36
opposing trends the first has been if
14:42
the public sector would just work more
14:45
like the private sector and have the
14:47
values that are amused in the private
14:51
sector things would go well so
14:53
marketization probably private
14:56
partnership charter systems and so on
14:58
and the other which is more recent is
15:01
that a number of international
15:03
organization the OECD for example the
15:06
European Union the African Union have
15:09
pointed out no at least to some extent
15:11
the public sector should operate from
15:14
the value base that is different from
15:16
the private sector not self interest but
15:19
public interest not rent-seeking but
15:22
impulsive
15:23
they not personal favors but
15:25
professional integrity and I would like
15:27
to hear your comments on this sort of
15:29
big divide between should should we
15:31
operate more like in the private sector
15:33
or are there some specific values that
15:36
are typical and that we need all over
15:39
the world for the public sector yeah
15:43
please stop ladies first well my answer
15:49
would be the part of the the public
15:52
sector should be different to the
15:55
private sector in some respects but the
15:58
same the value of integrity should be
16:01
required from the private sector and
16:03
where we are because we tolerate
16:06
integrity we tolerate lack of integrity
16:09
in the private sector a little bit more
16:12
than we tolerate it if it's in the
16:14
public sector if a a scandal breaks of
16:19
somebody who has been stealing from the
16:22
poor by fixing the bread prices we don't
16:29
get as much outrage as if the president
16:33
stole some all had some money taken from
16:35
the public players to improve his house
16:38
by the end of the day both eggs impact
16:42
on the poor and both eggs breed lack of
16:46
trust with a lack of trust in fellow
16:48
humans or lack of trust in the system
16:52
to that extent integrity is required in
16:55
all of them selfless selflessness I
17:00
would say well I guess the private
17:05
sector needs a little bit of selfishness
17:09
but it also needs is an element of
17:12
selflessness again I would say wash
17:14
where we are because often the private
17:16
sector has taken more than it should
17:20
have taken and left communities
17:22
destitute if you speak in South Africa
17:25
for the story of Marikana
17:27
you're talking about mining companies
17:29
that had left communities totally
17:32
destitute and with lack of human dignity
17:35
and violence's
17:37
language of the disempowered and when
17:39
violence breaks it affects everyone yeah
17:44
I think I think with the with
17:47
globalization certainly there's a
17:49
convergence on the values that drive
17:53
both the public and the private sector
17:56
where for example I don't think that you
17:59
can bifurcate the issue of innovation we
18:03
need innovation in government just as
18:05
much as we need it in the private sector
18:06
if anything probably even more you know
18:10
in government and just take a stone ear
18:12
for example the story of Estonia that I
18:14
mean 20 after the the collapse of the
18:19
Soviet Union this was typically what you
18:22
describe as a basket case and this is a
18:25
country that embrace innovation in
18:27
everything that it stands for and now
18:30
it's probably the most visited small
18:32
nation by a grid you know the CEOs of
18:34
all the top companies to learn what is
18:36
going on and essentially whether it was
18:40
government or private sector I mean
18:42
everybody was encouraged to have the
18:44
courage of innovation around technology
18:46
and the benefits I mean so Skype as we
18:51
know it is a private sector a business
18:55
but actually the technology is
18:59
technology that enabled Estonian
19:02
government work better you know so that
19:04
is that is one example but you know when
19:07
it comes to the issue of service I think
19:12
that that is one value that public
19:17
servants need to take a cue from the
19:22
private sector
19:23
you see if something if you provide
19:26
service to customers okay they vote with
19:29
their with their wallets right so they
19:32
either buy the goods or they choose not
19:33
to buy the goods and very quickly I mean
19:36
the the concept of market failure is
19:41
what causes a company to adjust and
19:43
continue to improve its its services
19:45
right
19:45
unfortunately in government fail
19:49
is something I assumed to take place
19:52
every four years based on the votes of
19:54
people okay and if you have a country
19:57
where the institutional qualities around
20:00
you know elections is very weak I mean
20:03
it's just not going to happen
20:04
okay so how do you get a government to
20:11
perform if you don't adopt more private
20:14
sector type performance management
20:16
systems right given we assume that
20:19
sometimes electoral processes don't work
20:22
or even when they work I mean for
20:24
example a recent one in North America I
20:28
don't want to sure which country when
20:29
they work we wonder how come this was
20:31
the result you know either way okay so
20:34
so sadly performance management
20:36
governments have to learn how to do
20:39
performance management the private
20:40
sector where I'm very clear about that's
20:42
my that's my view
20:44
now with respect to what I would term
20:52
selflessness and this issue of whether
20:57
when you serve as a public servant
21:00
versus serve as a a private sector
21:04
operator selflessness does not cut
21:07
across you know both both functions now
21:13
the reason why we say a public servant
21:18
must be selfless okay is that the
21:23
alignment between self-interest and
21:26
national interest cannot be assumed but
21:30
in the private sector the alignment
21:32
between self-interest and if you like
21:37
company interest can easily be assumed
21:39
because it's around profits okay
21:42
now yes there is a difference now if I
21:46
if I if I go to to Africa okay and I
21:51
pick I pick the issue of pollution okay
22:00
you look at oil and gas concerns and you
22:05
look at the nature of environmental
22:09
mismanagement that has taken place for
22:11
example in the Niger Delta okay you ask
22:15
yourself how would well-meaning public
22:21
servants look away when so much damage
22:24
was done I mean you know and I can tell
22:27
you it is not because they were taking
22:29
bribes from big oil it had nothing to do
22:31
with corruption in that in that sense
22:33
okay and it simply came from the fact
22:36
that here I am maybe in Abuja I am in
22:39
Lagos and I'm very far removed from
22:41
where this problem is and you know I
22:44
don't have a connection to it
22:46
yeah selflessness requires a very high
22:50
level of enlightenment to operate okay
22:54
and the Assumption therefore that every
22:56
public servant operates at a level of
22:58
enlightenment I don't think it's correct
23:00
and it will come therefore our segue
23:02
into the necessary condition of
23:04
competence in a public servant beyond
23:08
the skills to do the job I think that
23:11
there are some universal things that
23:13
have to be addressed one of which is
23:14
enlightening particularly in this world
23:16
that we live in today carry on this
23:20
issue are the special values for the
23:22
public sector well you know the OECD
23:26
actually did a survey of values in the
23:29
public sector nearly 20 years ago and
23:31
you might think that the first things
23:34
they found were that the most common
23:35
values were selflessness or justice or
23:39
courage or equality or many things that
23:42
we've talked about over the last couple
23:44
of days but what they found is that the
23:47
top values were none of those things
23:48
they were impartiality legality and
23:53
integrity and we also know if you look
23:57
around the world that people don't think
23:59
that in government we are doing those
24:02
things I mean we heard about the Edelman
24:04
Trust Barometer from 2017 just yesterday
24:07
and what it says is that trust in
24:09
government is lower than trust in the
24:11
media
24:12
just in business trust in NGOs it's 40
24:14
points lower than business in developing
24:17
countries 25 points and develop so
24:20
whatever the values are it isn't
24:22
necessarily working but here's the thing
24:24
government is not a business and
24:27
government business philanthropy
24:29
individuals need to work together in the
24:32
work of defining public values if you
24:34
think about what's required now and that
24:36
means that some common agreement on
24:39
norms would be very helpful let me give
24:41
you an example so if you think about
24:43
what are the types of things that are
24:44
likely to give people opportunity in the
24:46
modern world you probably say there are
24:48
at least a few things first is we have
24:51
to advance the best ideas in the world
24:52
and those ideas are going to come
24:54
through pipelines through government but
24:57
also through the private sector and
24:59
through nonprofits we would say that we
25:01
have to invest in people that we have to
25:03
develop interdisciplinary partnerships
25:05
that we have to create platforms that
25:08
allow people to share information and
25:10
ideas and sometimes the markets do that
25:12
very well and sometimes they don't
25:13
sometimes government does it very well
25:15
and sometimes it doesn't so even if the
25:18
sector's maybe inherently different that
25:20
they're always going to be some
25:21
differences between government and
25:23
business and philanthropy nevertheless
25:25
the work they have to do in many ways is
25:28
common and that requires coming to some
25:30
sense of common agreement in norm and
25:32
I'd suggest that we start with this idea
25:35
of engagement in action I can't report
25:37
we have a new research project here at
25:41
the School in Public Integrity one thing
25:43
I've done is to check many countries we
25:48
I think we are up to 45 they have
25:51
ethical codes for the civil service and
25:54
we have analyzed them from I think now
25:58
five continents you know also the Arab
26:00
world and so and we find that they are
26:02
quite similar and as you say the most
26:04
common word in these coats is
26:06
impartiality it's actually very
26:10
interesting one more question
26:13
we have in this research business about
26:16
integrity and corruption and quality of
26:18
government and interesting discussion
26:20
among researchers this is
26:24
the meshes we have they are not perfect
26:27
but shows that some countries the the
26:30
quality of government is much lower than
26:32
in other countries corruption and
26:33
nepotism and so and some of my
26:36
colleagues they will say corruption in
26:39
some countries and similar problems is
26:41
ingrained in the culture but this flies
26:45
in the face of a number of surveys the
26:48
afro barometer the world value survey
26:50
and also ethnographic work that I have
26:55
been engaging showing that people in
26:56
pretty hopelessly corrupt countries do
26:59
not internalize corruption as morally
27:02
okay 70 to 80 percent of for example
27:06
respondents in African countries say
27:09
things like bribes nepotism Assoc is
27:12
wrong and should be punished and this is
27:15
a little complicated to explain my
27:18
explanation and I would like to here is
27:20
that you should distinguish between
27:22
moral norms and norms as social practice
27:25
so the moral norms will tell you what is
27:28
right and wrong and here you would say
27:30
taking bribes and nepotism a zero but
27:32
then there are norms as social practice
27:35
this is how things go on in this world
27:37
so if if I would be out travelling in
27:39
such a country and my kids would get
27:41
very healed and I was told the only way
27:43
to get health care for them was to pay a
27:45
bribe I would have cost paid a bribe but
27:47
I would still think it's wrong right so
27:49
my interpretation of this is that people
27:53
participate in corruption not because
27:55
they have bad moral values but they are
27:57
in a situation where they actually often
27:59
don't have a choice even if they are on
28:03
the take your side or the or the pain
28:05
side it's probably not a good idea to be
28:07
a honest policeman and a Mexican police
28:10
force to take one example it's probably
28:12
pretty dangerous right and it makes no
28:14
sense because nothing will change if you
28:16
are the only honest policeman in this
28:18
hopelessly corrupt setting so so we have
28:22
a very interesting discussion one
28:24
problem is of course that if you say
28:26
that corruption is ingrained in the
28:28
culture you have to go to a highly
28:29
corrupt country and say hey your your
28:33
culture is bad that is not so different
28:35
from saying you are bad people
28:37
don't think that is too good start for
28:38
changing things so people are like I
28:41
would go there and say we don't have a
28:42
problem with your values it's just that
28:44
you happen to be out of luck with your
28:46
what should you say in formal
28:48
institutions so what is your perception
28:51
about this you know how much is this
28:54
practice is a cultural thing and how
28:55
much is are they just as social practice
29:01
speaking about my African country which
29:05
is South Africa I would say corruption
29:08
is certainly not part of the culture if
29:11
it was part of the culture it wouldn't
29:13
be the subject of talk and rejection by
29:17
society on a day to day basis would just
29:20
be going on with our lives and hen happy
29:22
to view crushin and to prove this about
29:27
five years ago a young lady and posted a
29:32
tweet saying that she had just paid a
29:35
bribe at a traffic the traffic holdup
29:42
and she said it was so cheap and that
29:45
she got away with a hundred grand or
29:46
something like that was a very very
29:48
small bribe and within minutes Twitter
29:53
had eaten her up and she's a model she
29:58
quickly retracted and said she was only
30:02
joking and and what that incident showed
30:06
us that the average person is not ready
30:11
to condone corruption I'm not suggesting
30:13
though that it doesn't happen I'm not
30:15
suggesting people don't don't bribe a
30:18
traffic officer but when its culture
30:20
it's when people accept it
30:22
it in this case I think even when people
30:25
do it they know it's wrong
30:27
often researchers and thrown up
30:30
anthropologists and sociologists from
30:32
other countries get confused between
30:34
corruption and gifts corruption as I
30:38
understand it in in in the transparency
30:43
international's definition is abuse of
30:47
entrusted powerful
30:50
for personal gain it will involve
30:52
gift-giving for personal gain either
30:55
accept a giver of the African Way of
30:58
giving gift is not one way it's not
31:02
those who need services giving to the
31:05
superior people the average person
31:08
exchange gifts in fact any any visitor
31:11
is always given a gift and any
31:15
relationship involves exchange of gifts
31:17
and they aren't gifts of no financial
31:20
value of very very very informal
31:24
financial but I don't know what the
31:25
studies are saying from where I'm
31:27
sitting it's not a cultural thing and
31:30
corruption is that is an old problem at
31:34
biblical times they were corruption we
31:36
talk about judicial independence because
31:38
this country introduced judicial
31:41
independence and all of the pegs for
31:44
judges because there was corruption in
31:46
the judiciary in this very country but
31:56
that extent to which we tolerate
31:59
corruption becomes a culture I think
32:02
some people say everything you do for
32:04
more than three times a day
32:07
it becomes your habit in your habits
32:10
become your culture which takes me just
32:13
very briefly to what you said about the
32:15
values when I spoke about values as well
32:17
about values that civil servants or
32:19
people who work for the state should
32:22
embrace in operate on the basis of but
32:26
people who went for the state of
32:27
themselves have their own villas and one
32:29
of the values you said is integrity I
32:31
got the same feeling from anecdotal
32:36
evidence as the perpetrator and now in
32:39
the tool emergence elephant foundation
32:40
when we do democracy dialogues that
32:42
people are concerned about interpreter
32:44
or ethics that people should issue it
32:47
should behave ethically people are
32:49
concerned about equality or social
32:51
justice and people are concerned about
32:54
they are about being treated with trust
32:58
I want to go with the one about a
33:01
equality but when it comes to corruption
33:04
people are concerned that there are
33:06
those who get away with better but if
33:11
you just make sure that you cultivate
33:13
good relationships with those in power
33:16
as a civil servant or as a political
33:19
officer you are safe that concerns the
33:23
average civil servant
33:24
the average civil servant is also
33:26
concerned that in the hiring in two
33:31
positions critical positions that are
33:34
difficult these days some people go
33:37
there they cut the line is our colleague
33:40
Alice heed the question of equality
33:43
concern civil servants that there are
33:45
people are cutting the line and and we
33:48
can't blame it on affirmative action
33:49
because affirmative action proper does
33:52
not involve cutting the line it means
33:54
that if Eric and I are equally competent
33:57
and we've been evaluated as competent I
34:00
will then be given I'll be favored on
34:03
the basis that I'm a woman but it
34:05
doesn't mean that if he is he's got 20
34:09
years experience and he has shown so
34:10
much competence and I've never done that
34:13
job ever in my life he should find
34:15
himself being my subordinate purely
34:18
because I'm a woman
34:19
and I'm black and that men concerns
34:22
people thank you please um I I would
34:27
like to maybe express my own
34:29
understanding of corruption and I look
34:33
at it more as abuse of power abuse of
34:35
position abuse of privilege and actually
34:39
I could argue that there is as much
34:43
corruption in the private sector as
34:44
there is in the public sector if you
34:47
follow these definitions these broad
34:50
definitions and you know there's the
34:57
issue as to whether the abuse of power
35:00
privilege is accepted or not accepted I
35:02
think universally abuse is not accepted
35:07
for example in Nigeria for the first
35:09
time we had an opposition party winning
35:13
in a very emphatic fashion an election
35:18
which was unheard of and the principal
35:20
reason was that I mean the power the
35:24
party in power at the time was painted
35:26
as a very corrupt party justly so and
35:29
people came out on mass and you know
35:31
took them out of office in Nigeria
35:34
nonetheless you see where national
35:39
integration is especially in
35:42
post-conflict type of environments and
35:44
conflict does nicely mean war okay I'll
35:46
just take conflict to mean even the type
35:48
of apartheid system that existed in
35:50
South Africa or Cruz and things like
35:52
that it is very easy for you to be more
35:57
tolerant of abuse than in societies that
35:59
have not had this type of traumatic
36:02
traumatic effect there's this story of a
36:05
child who is caught with a pencil that
36:11
belongs to another and another child in
36:14
class one of his classmates and you know
36:15
is reported to the parent you know his
36:17
father's you know African type of story
36:20
and the father says why would you steal
36:22
from from your from your classmates you
36:25
know and punishes him and and so on look
36:27
I mean I could have brought 12 pencils
36:29
from the office and giving you you know
36:32
so so so now the issue of and now this
36:38
could happen you know this could happen
36:40
anywhere now this issue of integration
36:41
and to whom do you for this emotional
36:44
connection by which you then determine
36:46
what is abuse and when it's the annual
36:49
views is something that we should really
36:52
really really look at and if I if I for
36:55
example take South Africa where without
37:00
doubt when I visit I can understand the
37:03
emotions that drive some of the some of
37:08
the decisions around you know pushing
37:12
for equality for example and nonetheless
37:16
however I feel that when you when you
37:21
create the vodka economy where you need
37:24
to compensate
37:25
a group in itself it creates opportunity
37:29
for abuse okay and so we have this
37:33
never-ending challenge around
37:38
opportunities for abuse okay
37:41
because the you know and the issue of
37:43
discretion okay so the opportunities
37:46
continuously are created in the world we
37:49
live in now the question is how would
37:51
those in power exercise the discretion
37:53
that you give them and what is the
37:56
standard by which you measure discretion
37:59
we go to this issue of impartiality okay
38:01
now in more developed environments you
38:09
hope okay that a good a strong press is
38:13
strong justice system etc etc you know
38:16
should countervail against the abuse but
38:21
you know I I watched a press conference
38:23
and I wondered if this could happen in
38:27
Africa a president was asked about the
38:30
issue of conflict of interest and called
38:33
the press conference and showed some
38:35
documents in a corner powered up I and
38:38
said we've signed all these documents my
38:41
children and I and this is evidence that
38:43
there is no more conflict of interest in
38:45
what I do
38:45
and if I told you this was Syria alone
38:50
you might know this was the USA so so
38:55
III think that the benefit if you like
38:59
of several years of a drive towards
39:04
impartiality is very strong but
39:06
environments that haven't had that
39:07
benefit you know I'm going to struggle
39:09
actually you know to contain this abuse
39:11
of power and privilege Eric what do you
39:14
have to say about this cultural
39:15
institution things I was reflecting that
39:18
when I worked briefly as a clerk in the
39:21
US Justice Department who was in the
39:24
Office of Special Investigations which
39:27
primarily was investigating former Nazis
39:29
and
39:31
at the end of my tenure a dark unmarked
39:36
envelope came and I brought it over to
39:40
the security guards with some fear and
39:42
said we have a dark envelope and they
39:47
just started laughing I said open it go
39:50
ahead open it since I opened it and out
39:52
came my pack of 12 pencils that I had
39:55
ordered three months or two two and a
39:56
half months earlier so I'm glad your
39:58
colleague had pencils to offer I think
40:02
we can confuse corruption and company
40:04
incompetence sometimes but I think you
40:07
know look I believe that opportunity is
40:12
not distributed equally block by block
40:14
neighborhood by neighborhood city by
40:17
city country by country but I do believe
40:20
that talent and good intentions are when
40:24
I worked in Haiti after the awful
40:28
earthquake in 2010 there were so many
40:30
people that came forward and said you
40:32
know the public sector many people are
40:34
wiped out because of the collapse of
40:36
buildings and we know we could make more
40:38
money working in the private or frankly
40:41
the informal sector after the earthquake
40:44
but we want to rebuild our country and
40:46
that doesn't doesn't help us
40:48
individually but it helps for something
40:51
bigger and so on I believe all around
40:52
the world we see good intentions you
40:55
know one thing I would just say is that
40:57
technology can help in a world where
41:00
people are walking around with phones
41:03
and have access and connectivity they
41:05
haven't had before you know certainly
41:07
technology can cut in multiple ways in a
41:10
society but for this technology can help
41:12
there are interesting experiments if you
41:14
look there was some work done in
41:16
Indonesia
41:16
to allow pictures taken by individual
41:19
citizens to get beamed directly into the
41:23
discussions of President would be having
41:25
with cabinet ministers to verify whether
41:28
certain work had been done you know
41:30
there are ways we can use the tools we
41:32
have to give people more of a voice and
41:34
I think that's really what's required is
41:36
that when people you know whether they
41:38
have those moral norms or not if they
41:39
don't act sometimes it's because people
41:42
want to know their voice will be heard
41:43
and they don't
41:44
how but we can help with that and I
41:47
think that's really the future thank you
41:49
I think we should open up for questions
41:51
from the floor please behind Karthik you
41:58
introduce yourself please
41:59
there is a microphone coming up we take
42:05
two or three questions and no strong
42:08
statements questions oh thank you very
42:13
much my name is Edson Khanda from Brazil
42:15
from Digital Vegas Foundation and uh I
42:19
wanted to ask a question first of all
42:23
about the Mexican policeman a so Mexican
42:27
policeman who is in a corrupt system you
42:32
said there's no hope because I I believe
42:37
it has to have hope and I believe that
42:42
there are many people who want to be
42:45
honest but the system ends up not
42:49
allowing them so that's an essential
42:53
feature of public service you have to
42:58
believe and you have to be innovative
43:00
enough to find a way and I think as in
43:04
the system dynamics our theory we can
43:08
always find the higher-level coherence
43:11
if we have the right principles so I
43:15
just wanted to share that and listen to
43:18
what ah is your opinion if you more
43:23
questions please
43:31
Michael IDEs I'm machine here ass my
43:35
question goes to thank you my question
43:39
is about you know holding a different
43:41
standard in terms of the values and
43:43
private sector in the public sector you
43:45
spoke about impartiality social justice
43:48
a quality integrity but where is
43:50
leadership in all of this please another
43:56
student
43:57
I give preferential treatment to
44:00
students I hope you don't my what a
44:02
privilege um hi my name is Ida
44:05
um and then P P student and my question
44:08
is how to preserve the values we're
44:09
talking about from politicization
44:12
institutions in particular when
44:14
government changes after elections and
44:17
stuff like that and it's too full
44:18
because in one hand it's public servants
44:21
wanting to stay in to having integrity
44:24
and on the other hand those leaving
44:25
trying to stop the government and I
44:28
don't know repay them for having to
44:29
leave their job and and I assume you
44:31
know what they mean yeah the young woman
44:35
beside please
44:37
my name is Maximilian I'm a medical
44:39
student and a prospective student for
44:41
the MPP next year my question is about
44:46
education because I've heard very little
44:48
about education so far what do you think
44:50
play does does education a play a role
44:54
in acquiring a clear set of values in
44:58
our everyday life and my second question
45:00
related a bit to that is should
45:02
government's not look also when they are
45:04
recruiting people more at mindset and
45:07
also clear set of values which is often
45:10
neglected I think during recruiting
45:14
processes please who wants to start
45:16
Julie thank you you don't have to answer
45:20
all the question I think take one maybe
45:23
I will start with that question asked by
45:25
Maximilian Maximilian and the role of
45:29
Education when we started a foundation
45:33
our de mattandsarah foundation we really
45:37
thought that our contribution could
45:39
through education training dialogue and
45:42
training advocacy and training people
45:44
thought that as a lawyer the the best
45:46
way to contribute to society would be to
45:49
to litigate and I thought I could
45:53
litigate when necessary but the most
45:56
important part is education let's think
45:59
back to Greek society at the height of
46:04
Greek civilization every child was
46:08
educated around the values that underpin
46:12
society today we train our children or
46:15
with we take them through school
46:17
primarily to be able to be technically
46:20
functional but to be functional human
46:24
beings in terms of how they relate to
46:26
each to other human beings and and how
46:29
they become an asset to society not
46:31
takers but they give more than they take
46:34
is is is is not fully part of the system
46:39
I know in South Africa they've got
46:41
something called life skills but it
46:44
takes a very small portion of teaching
46:47
and also it is undervalued when you go
46:50
to university nobody wants to know what
46:53
you scored in life skills even if you
46:55
got 100% in life skills no but because
46:58
nobody cares what kind of human being
46:59
you are Maximilian and I think you're
47:02
right it would be interesting if we were
47:05
actually and when we employing people
47:07
wanted to know what they scored in life
47:09
skills because being able to function
47:12
among human beings and being trustworthy
47:16
among those values is extremely
47:19
important I think the second question
47:21
that maybe I may want to contribute to
47:24
is the
47:32
the question that was asked by the
47:36
colleague who said we holding the
47:39
private sector to a different view to a
47:43
different standard than we hold
47:45
government I did say to a certain extent
47:49
would relax the views from their private
47:51
sector but I also mentioned that part of
47:54
the reason we have a dysfunctional world
47:56
is because we have allowed the private
48:00
sector to be sometimes selfish not
48:04
everyone in the private sector is
48:05
selfish the UN Global Compact is coming
48:08
with a different view on how the private
48:11
sector should behave the the topic forum
48:14
which is a forum that gathers in once a
48:18
year with companies like IKEA etc is in
48:22
calculating a different view about how
48:24
companies should behave that they should
48:27
into the circle and then lastly is there
48:30
a place for leadership absolutely that's
48:32
also another area where as a foundation
48:36
we have come to believe that we have to
48:38
contribute but all of these came from my
48:40
role as a perpetrator what I picked up
48:44
was the average person wants to live in
48:47
a society that is they the average
48:50
person wants to live in a society where
48:53
they would be rewarded properly for
48:56
their contribution to society
48:57
I also learned though that the
48:59
Millennials want more than that
49:03
an onion and somebody that yesterday
49:05
mentioned that the Millennials tend to
49:07
be and have an entitlement attitude I
49:13
hadn't done research my research is
49:16
purely anecdotal my research in South
49:18
Africa in in in some of the African
49:20
setups I've been to is that actually
49:23
they are the list they had a list group
49:30
within entitlement man said they are
49:32
selfless the reason in South Africa
49:34
where fees must fall was because
49:37
students rebelled in favor of or against
49:43
financial exclusion
49:44
that universities and it was because of
49:47
empathy for fellow students that we're
49:49
sleeping in in in restrooms in the
49:52
universities and libraries in corridors
49:55
and most of the students that marched if
49:58
you can look at the at the video
50:02
material are rich or middle class
50:06
students in the forefront of the
50:09
business for March with students what
50:14
does it mean though it means if we bring
50:17
these young people into government and
50:19
we have said that we have values of
50:21
human dignity of values of selflessness
50:25
we have values or social justice they
50:28
want to see ask grownups leaving the
50:32
values and which takes me to how do we
50:36
teach values for me I have found that
50:40
what gates resonance is not teaching new
50:44
values as Public Protector
50:47
I never told government about new values
50:50
I always went back to the Constitution
50:52
at first they would you know dance
50:55
around it but later there will be the
50:58
same people making speech in using the
51:01
same values but just going back to the
51:03
values in the Constitution and in the
51:05
policies that government has passed
51:08
itself thank you please
51:11
Anika you asked for his leadership and I
51:15
agree that is that's the key question
51:18
and that is what I have pretty much
51:21
dedicated my life in many many regards
51:25
to in Africa there's this and I've
51:30
searched for who said it but I like it
51:32
there's this quote that comes out of of
51:35
the West like the trees of Liberty are
51:39
watered by the blood of matters and by
51:42
the way despots but it speaks to a world
51:47
where you have had successive continuous
51:50
pipeline of great leaders and I'm not
51:53
saying everybody has been good but you
51:55
have had a pipeline of great
51:58
needed emerging from competitive
52:00
processes in many regards that could be
52:03
democratic or close to democratic okay
52:05
and you take that for granted in the
52:11
West the story in Africa is Mandela and
52:17
we all bow to this great man and right
52:21
now I'm not sure we'll be bowing to his
52:23
second remove successor and so you you
52:27
you ask why would a leader who you all
52:33
agree okay is not operating at the
52:37
levels anybody would accept recruits his
52:40
opposite why does it make sense or the
52:44
flipside is how can his opposite be
52:47
attracted to serve with such a leader
52:50
and therefore and this is the where we
52:53
don't have a choice we have to stack the
52:57
odds in favor of a system that brings in
53:01
good leaders it's not going to happen
53:03
naturally we have to take deliberate
53:06
steps to make it happen and we have to
53:09
move out of our comfort zone
53:11
and if for example the power and the
53:14
countervailing power lies in the private
53:16
sector the private sector then has to
53:18
get out of his comfort zone and start
53:20
getting good people into the public
53:23
sector so to speak and then with respect
53:25
to how do you build good leaders I don't
53:30
think they just happen I don't think
53:31
it's a question of oh this this this
53:33
gifted in you know intelligent man or
53:36
woman you know just appears and no they
53:38
are made at least the ones that fought
53:40
for independence in Africa where may
53:42
they were made in colleges like the
53:44
colleges you have in Oxford University
53:46
and so on and so you have to get them
53:49
into great schools where they will learn
53:51
the type of things that are being
53:53
discussed today and they will have the
53:55
wisdom and sagacity to maneuver around
53:57
very very hostile and in certain
54:00
instances sometimes fatal situations and
54:03
they would succeed and so we need to
54:07
create the schools that will
54:10
well I think we have schools but I think
54:14
we need more it's not easy for African
54:18
students to fly to Oxford or other
54:21
universities and and be finished
54:25
you know it's expensive the exchange
54:27
rates are not good and and so on so we
54:29
need to scale up the type of BSG
54:33
opportunities about the black school
54:36
opportunities that exist to to produce a
54:40
pipeline of great leaders I will serve
54:42
serve their country countries Eric you
54:45
want also anything sure yeah education
54:50
continues throughout your life and
54:52
adults learn by doing they learn
54:56
differently than children and so that's
54:59
why I think it's so important as we
55:01
think about values for the public sector
55:05
but frankly for society that's why I
55:07
think it's so important for people to do
55:09
things together you know what if we had
55:11
a world where it was easier for people
55:13
to serve together whether it's across
55:15
communities or in national service or in
55:19
global service you know what if we had
55:21
more participation in things like
55:24
budgeting as we've seen through many
55:26
experiments around the world what if we
55:28
use technology for people to share their
55:31
experiences across societies and
55:34
cultures I think that we would get to a
55:37
different place if that education was
55:39
thought of because I believe it's
55:41
important as everyone has said but it's
55:43
thought of as a lifelong project that
55:45
included the things that people can do
55:46
together you know and on leadership I
55:50
hope that part of the answer not all of
55:53
the answers but I hope that part of the
55:54
answer is here in this room with the
55:57
students that ask questions and people
55:58
that are watching online because you
56:01
know what's I think really unique about
56:03
this program is the idea that it brings
56:05
people from many cultures together and
56:07
also that it brings people that don't
56:11
necessarily agree politically they don't
56:14
agree in what their values are and I
56:15
think that kind of exchange and
56:17
willingness to hear other people is
56:20
really important and so I hope that
56:23
all of you will help answer that
56:25
question yeah I should say something
56:28
about the Mexican policeman I haven't
56:31
studied them but I when I started this
56:33
research it was in Budapest some 15
56:37
years ago and at that time in Hungary
56:40
about 50% of the income for Hungarian
56:44
physicians came from money under the
56:46
table so it was significant money now my
56:50
colleagues there they had actually
56:52
interviewed a lot of physicians what
56:55
they roped us what they thought about
56:56
this and they really detested the system
56:59
they really wanted to get out of it they
57:01
were actually they said willing to take
57:04
a not insignificant income cap 10% oza
57:07
but only under one condition
57:10
that something could convince them that
57:12
most of their colleagues would stop at
57:14
the same time so that is the trick you
57:17
know it's not that they were bad people
57:19
but they it makes very little sense to
57:21
be a the owners play arena in a rotten
57:24
game nothing will change about education
57:26
I in my American colleague rikiya Slater
57:29
has published a number of papers we can
57:31
show that we have data for 78 countries
57:36
mean years of schooling 1870 it
57:39
correlates with today's levels of
57:41
corruption on a magical level 0.7 of our
57:45
favorite cases Italy as is well known
57:47
southern Italy has a corruption level I
57:50
would say on a yeah very bad level but
57:54
the regions in northern Italy are clean
57:56
as Denmark it's just magic now either we
57:58
get such a reform in 1859 very radical
58:02
three years free schooling for every
58:04
child its implemented to the letter in
58:06
the northern regions nothing in the
58:08
south and we see the effects 150 years
58:11
later it's just fantastic about
58:14
leadership it's it can be summarized in
58:17
one sentence the German proverb is
58:19
correct their fish stink from cup fare
58:23
the fish rots from head down that is
58:25
what the evidence it's extremely
58:27
important cause yeah we have a time for
58:30
a small round of more questions please
58:36
Olle blake type of MVP candidate here
58:39
student i was peeking to Professor Fung
58:42
yesterday about how we get the best
58:44
people in society with the most
58:46
competence with the right values into
58:48
politics because we're not seeing that
58:50
around the world today and we were
58:52
discussing how an article a few years
58:54
ago in America was seeing a lot of
58:56
ex-soldiers a lot of X American military
58:58
were encouraged to go into politics
59:00
because they was seen as having or being
59:02
one of the last groups of American
59:03
society who really embodied that sense
59:06
of sacrifice and service and integrity
59:08
that would not be compromised by
59:10
anything so my question to you is is how
59:13
do we it's great having one or two
59:15
people who have gone and followed that
59:17
route but how do we scale that up I mean
59:19
how do we take the kind of good work at
59:21
the Kennedy School and a brother Nick
59:22
but massively scale it up to get the
59:24
right people into the inter politics and
59:27
the public site so my question was
59:35
really about you know there's some
59:37
values that we what we might consider
59:40
sort of very desirable and normatively
59:44
you know wonderful to have come at the
59:47
expense of other values and so something
59:52
like for instance social justice which
59:54
you mentioned right and and it would be
59:57
great to live in a world where everybody
59:58
was equal but you know it comes at the
60:01
expense of something else and so there
60:03
are there some values that you would
60:05
normally prefer to have as an individual
60:09
but not like to see in in you know
60:12
amongst those who hold public office the
60:14
gentleman in the blue shirt please
60:18
this will unfortunately be our last
60:20
question because we're running out of
60:22
time yeah we called my name is idea we
60:24
should enter the blocking school I just
60:26
want to push back on the theme around in
60:28
personality you know in Posadas I've
60:30
been talking about in the context of
60:31
Africa where there are so many philia
60:33
are connections that have to the family
60:36
to decline to the tribe or to your
60:38
religion could you just give us like
60:40
practical ways in which you killed
60:42
in Agua implementing the culture of
60:44
impartiality in the public sector not
60:45
only to the folks who are beneficiaries
60:47
of public goods but also within public
60:50
sector around recruitment around
60:52
performance management around XD done
60:54
and promotion thank you
60:56
one minute each please - right
61:02
maybe the last question how do we
61:10
reinforce the value of impartiality in
61:13
the public service especially in
61:17
situations where we may have to prefer
61:20
certain people because of historical
61:23
disadvantage is that the question
61:25
you are connections like trying grant
61:29
Afghans you from you EOS a lot of I
61:32
think thank you I think your question
61:34
then a to a certain extent is it can be
61:39
linked to the first question that was us
61:41
which will be answered by Eric is that
61:43
we have to firstly get the best into the
61:48
public service the best and the best
61:52
would not be just the most competent
61:54
they would also be the ones who have
61:57
displayed they the proper values from
62:02
wherever they weigh before we recruited
62:04
them and they've already shown an
62:06
element of selflessness in one of our
62:09
democracy dialogues which we organized
62:11
is demo logs and that the tumor
62:13
foundation I just cast with young people
62:18
selection of leaders for public office
62:20
and said if you're going to pick up a
62:23
person because they have been supporting
62:27
their own community in doing being
62:29
stealing things from government to
62:31
support their community or you're
62:33
picking up a person because they they
62:36
fight a lot they know how to question
62:38
authority you must know that when they
62:42
now have power they will do what they
62:45
used to do before you elected them
62:48
therefore if you want people in power
62:50
you've got to decide what you want these
62:52
people if you want people for example
62:53
who believe that
62:55
justice is beyond just us then make sure
62:59
that you appoint people who believe in
63:03
justice and not just us
63:04
and lastly also just later to that the
63:08
training and ethics I I don't believe it
63:10
can only be Oxford Harvard verts and
63:14
stellenbosch of course doing this I
63:17
think we can collaborate because a lot
63:20
of these ethics training activities are
63:23
taking place at community level but
63:25
let's find a way to connect the dots
63:28
thank you please thank you Karthik you
63:31
ask them a question around basically I
63:36
think is almost how do you prioritize
63:39
values with their hierarchy and their
63:44
trade-offs i i I would obviously take a
63:47
market-based resolution of this issue I
63:50
believe there will be trade-offs and as
63:52
as they say the cost of anything is what
63:57
you give up you know to get it and at
64:00
the end of the day if we have a system
64:03
whereby we can all determine
64:05
collectively whether you know we are
64:07
prepared to give up something for
64:09
another value which we assume is of a
64:13
greater importance of magnitude fine I
64:16
mean then we live with it unfortunately
64:19
those choices are very difficult to make
64:22
for example in the US I understand that
64:26
I don't know if it's true but I
64:27
understand that bills are being passed
64:29
without discussing them you know even on
64:33
a bipartisan basis so it's very
64:35
difficult to resolve with all these
64:37
issues with respect to scaling up
64:40
education which is critical to to
64:43
building the leadership that you need
64:47
the interesting thing is that for and if
64:51
I take exact examples like Nigeria one
64:56
of the costs of bad leadership is the
64:59
erosion of educational systems which
65:01
sometimes we as good as you will find
65:02
anywhere in the world okay so in Nigeria
65:06
we have a serious chat
65:09
and we're people from other developing
65:16
nations at the time I'm talking about
65:17
the period of independence about 60s
65:20
used to contain Aryan vs. because they
65:23
were the best in the world and now those
65:27
universities have been underfunded for
65:29
thirty years you know and and I've
65:31
really deteriorated so how do we rebuild
65:34
these educational systems and these
65:38
investments that what is infrastructure
65:40
that is crumbling and and decaying again
65:43
the issue of of good leaders but
65:46
certainly technology I think is the
65:49
solution because using technology you
65:53
can massively deploy a number of the
65:56
type of programs that you know you are
65:59
exposed to here I mean maybe not Leslie
66:01
at the same level of quality of learning
66:03
but I mean sometimes even half knowledge
66:06
is better than than not I mean I prefer
66:10
to be the one I King than the blind king
66:12
for example and so I think that and we
66:16
are actually discussing with PSG at
66:19
least for the Nigerian civil service a
66:23
series of programs I think already
66:25
there's this MOOC innovation that is
66:29
coming out of Oxford and see whether we
66:32
can create a massive deployment of
66:35
education you know across you know the
66:38
Nigerian public service thank you Eric
66:41
final words that's well I guess on to
66:43
the question of how do we attract the
66:47
best into the public sector I guess the
66:50
first thing I would say is that a lot of
66:53
times we are I mean in my work with
66:56
national governments with municipal
66:58
governments I think about the many
67:01
people that I've met that embodied those
67:03
same characteristics of sacrifice and
67:05
service whether first responders or
67:08
teachers or people that were going the
67:10
extra mile in health care I think this
67:11
happens every day much more than we ever
67:14
give credit to people for and so some of
67:17
what I think is that we should stop for
67:19
a minute and be very grateful for the
67:21
people of many different background
67:23
that actually do that now and we need
67:26
more of it so I think your question is a
67:28
very real and relevant one and I would
67:31
suggest that you know to bring even more
67:33
people of that quality into the public
67:36
service you know we should be sure to
67:39
really demonstrate role models to tell
67:42
the stories of impact I mean the people
67:44
I've met that were mission driven I
67:46
think that's enduring and so I'd love to
67:48
bring you know that next generation
67:50
forward and I think we've got to support
67:53
people when they're in the roles
67:54
exchanging them as they would in any
67:56
other sector from one job to another
67:58
building cross-functional teams using
68:01
the technology we have I think all of
68:02
that would help but I think we really
68:05
also should remember the starting point
68:06
which is in many ways I think we already
68:08
have an extraordinary group of people
68:10
serving us around the world with this
68:12
world I would like to thank the
68:14
panelists and thank the audience
68:22
thank you so much