OOT Arguments

Drizzt - well ken tribunal'd himself i guess

Daredevil - i could have tried to defend it but bleh

Cosmo - Well this was a doozy.

Iri: Kirbin's use of his epic bait and switch tactic really paid off here, where he does something OOT but doesn't define a certain stat so they aren't. Anyway Cosmo isn't out of tier. If Cosmo is barely avoiding strikes from people who attack way slower than the TS then the main argument here (speed) just sort of falls apart.

I think Embrace could have been onto something had she herself tried quantifying Cosmo's combat speed better as-argued by Kirbin but as it is Cosmo slow af

Clev: Cosmo is out of tier. Kirbin got insanely greedy trying to argue that Cosmo has reaction times 2-11x better than the tiersetter. He tried to argue that it didn’t matter if they had no movement speed, but as I read Kirbin's argument, the baton dodge was in the context of Cosmo being able to dodge attacks and get behind the attacker in the instant of the attack, not just seeing the attack. He tried to scale to Akoya’s bullet dodge and even conceded that this was 24 times better than the tiersetter, saying a 20 ms difference “isn’t a lot” in a tier where a couple ms can make all the difference in speed. Also he never even touched the points about having attacks which bypass durability, being a master-level grappler against an opponent who specializes in a grappling art, and being able to outpredict his opponent, which I kinda thought would be a little pertinent.

Fem: read the argument but yea he's oot

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Iridescence's judgments:

I'm just going to do the Qaws thing where he like lists bullet points then say stuff, sorry but I'm just not feeling well

EAD vs. Kirbin

* Reaction Calcs - All valid on both sides, Embrace made some mistakes that Kirbin called out on heavily, Kirbin never rebutted hers so :shrug:

* Howling - Just doesn't seem useful, it is very slow if you take the anime timeframes as literal, Embrace arguing Kanade would go for it often hurts her

* Choking Out - Succeeds if Cosmo lands it

* Getting in range - Weakest part of kirb's argument imo, if he's saying that someone with 30 m/s striking speed like the TS can just hit Cosmo in his OOT request then Kanade can just...hit him. Prediction is nice but Long Min has jank scaling and not very quantifiable speed

I don't think it's a super clear cut win but Cosmo can't be not OOT and win, as I don't think Cosmo is OOT he just gets hit by Kanade.

Also again to Embrace I think you can just cut your arguments down.

Coco vs Talv

* Gaolang's superiority - I mean eh. I don't think it's a strong enough argument to win the match on its own but I do think Gaolang is generally supposed to be 'stronger' than Saw based on statements

* HoB messes up Gaolang's footwork - No it doesn't lol. That being said I immensely enjoyed this argument

* Saw scaling - Some of it was good, a lot was not great. Just on one example I don't think scaling Karo to 'random Kengan fighters' is good. At the end I think Saw is fast, but Gaolang is quantifiable, and Saw's strength/dura is...alright I guess

* Grappling - Coco completely missed Talv's point in R2

I think both side's main win con is valid, Gaolang is just faster and more likely to execute it

Guy vs Andrew

guy's not an hbox fan, so he loses by default

Amasian vs Corv: Dawn of Combat Speed

Opening with trick arrows - I don't think GA has a 100% chance of opening with a trick arrow but he still might. I think there's a better chance he does whatever Corv said but it's not definite.

Picking wrong arrow - I'm tired but I guess I just don't see either debater's point here or why this is important. Most of the esoteric arrows GA shoots are going to badly hurt Buffy clearly

Strength - Buffy's feat just seems better than GA's, him being injured does make his feat better than initially seemed but it's not quantifiable and amasian couldn't quantify it

World War Guy - Corv's antifeats aren't spectacular, a lot of these rely on the assumption that these people are just slow rather than the fact that they only scale to GA and "can't be assumed to be fast" (I also dunno but using antifeats from the first GA series probably doesn't work, but I wouldn't know so bleh). That being said that, while I think amasian's antifeats are better, there were a lot of holes Corv I think missed poking through them so he loses points here

I think, again, however, trying to equate reactions to overall combat speed doesn't really work. Buffy I think is clearly slow. She's a live action character on a show with not the best choreography. However just because GA has 15 ms reactions or whatever doesn't mean he's fast, he just has very quick reactions.

I think Buffy can probably hit Arrow and when she does she can cut him. I think Arrow doesn't always open with trick arrows. So while I think Corv made more than a few mistakes and dropped important stuff I think Buffy wins.

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Fem's judgments

Embrace vs Kirbin

Embraces first response comes off as disjointed with no one real thesis for why she wins as much as like thirty mini theses for why she maybe wins. I’m stupid enough to be swayed by her use of calcs and she clearly understands her characters well and has also researched Kengan well, but she also relies on some bad in character arguments she doesn’t source, and some scaling I don’t approve of. Calling all Kengan characters explicitlly hyper weak to sound because Ohma has an antifeat is pretty lame IMO.

Kirbins response makes it clear he’s not really taking this seriously. He clearly understands the nature of Cosmos’ speed and gives really good breakdowns in some places, and then in other places just doesn’t try at all. Sorry kirbin, linking a singular blunt durability feat like this without giving any explanation for why it’s good doesn’t mean shit. He tends to rely pretty much predominantly on a single win condition for Cosmo, that he’ll grapple Kanade and win with a choke out, and leaves large portions of Embraces argument unchecked.

Embrace capitalizes on the fact that a lot of her win conditions go unattested, reasserts them, and then goes for an OOT based around Cosmos speed. Personally, I was a lot more swayed by Embraces OOT than I was by Kirbs defense of said OOT. “My character is 11x faster than the tier setter, but actually, that doesn’t matter at all cause ~movement speed~” doesn’t really do much to convince me, especially when you’re simultaneously arguing that your fighter can grab and restrain people who are faster than them.

So yeah. Embrace wins due to Kirb being OOT, and honestly probably would have won anyway in my opinion.

Embrace: 3.5 Glasses of BBQ Milk
Kirbin: 2.5 Glasses of BBQ Milk

Coco vs Talv

Talvs first response is a pretty convincing antifeat dump on Saw, punctuated by a pretty nice bit of evidence taking the form of his character canonically beating Saw.

Coco doesn’t really engage with the antifeat argument and just sort of insists that his characters are good. He provides evidence of Gaolang being impressed by Saw, which aren’t really as impressive as Talv’s first response. I buy maybe that the first fight from forever ago isn’t a good indicator, but there’s nothing that disproves it when coupled with the idea that Saw is still impressed and that “the gap has widened” since.

Talv takes another dump on Coco, correctly pointing out that Coco never engaged with his win conditions and just said “no, Saw good” again, but louder. Pushes the point that his evidence is more convincing.

Coco then goes “correct debate formatting”, which he correctly then admits isn’t actually important. Then tries for some whack ass Newtons Law bullshit which he also seems to know is bullshit. Makes some weak arguments about character statements and ends with “this link doesn’t even work”, which would’ve really been a strong argument if not for the fact that the link worked the first time it was posted.

Talv wins.

Talv: ⅘ Glasses of BBQ Milk
Coco: 1.5/5 Glasses of BBQ Milk

Guy of Evil vs Andrew

Guy concedes

Tooamasian vs Corvette

Again, really solid performance on both sides here, probably my favorite one. Both sides should be proud.

Tooamasian had some really nice feat dumps throughout the argument and calculated speed well. He did a really good job of showing how varied GA’s arsenal is, and how badly it can wreck Buffy.
And then Corv came in with the “lol so what?” and effectively shifted a lot of the battle from stat comparisons to in character behaviors. This allowed him to pretty easily dictate the flow of the battle into turning it mostly into how GA will act in the battle- though also gave some impressive feat dumps for GA as well.

I think that the “GA doesn’t even know what arrow he’s drawing” argument was incredibly weak. However, Corve did do a good job of arguing that
GA won’t use lethal force on someone right away
GA predominantly uses his trick arrows on people he knows the weaknesses of, not randoms like Buffy
GA loses in close combat if it happens
And for those reasons, i’m going to vote that Buffy wins this debate. This was a close one, and I think if Tooamasian had maybe pressed the stealth angle a bit more then he would have won this one. But that didn’t happen, so i’m gonna rule for Corv.

Tooamasian: 4.8/5 Glasses of BBQ Milk
Corvette: 5/5 Glasses of BBQ Milk

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Clev's judgments:

Guy VS Andrew

Andrew wins. He beat Guy in Melee.

Talv VS Coco

To win, Saw Paing must land the Hammer of Burma; his striking is vague and at one point it was argued that he has piercing because he cut Rei's face with his elbow, but that got abandoned pretty quick. A lot of things are working against him here: Gaolang is familiar with Saw Paing, Gaolang has very explicit speed scaling as opposed to Saw Paing's extremely vague speed scaling, and Gaolang is skilled enough to force the Fang to fight with boxing- something that Coco never actually rebuted, even though you aren't really supposed to throw headbutts in boxing. On the other hand, Gaolang seems to have the ball in his court the whole time. He knows not to get hit by the Hammer, probably knows how to counter the Hammer if Rei can figure it out, he has very clear speed and strength, and will not aim for Saw Paing's skeleton-y parts. Talv gets the win- which, by scaling, makes him a better debater than Guy.

Corv VS TooAmasian

I didn't factor this into my judgement, but I felt weird about Corv using my and Iri's opinion on his calc to act like we had accepted it as an immutable fact not to be changed for ever. If someone offers a convincing rebuttal, I would be willing to change my mind on it.

Speaking of speed, it was pretty arrogant to act like TooAma could never win the antifeat argument when Buffy clearly moves slow all the time. Corv didn't even try to counter Buffy's antifeats, just going "well you have antifeats too". The difference is that GA has a lot more speed feats at this level than Buffy.

Corv had difficulty countering the piercing argument against GA, arguing that his arrows were weak rather than Buffy was strong. If a wooden spear can pierce her, then any arrow will pierce her, let alone ones that go through rock and metal. There was also the issue of Green Arrow's trick arrows, most of which went uncontested by Corv. Corv argued that he would always open with a normal arrow, then argued that he could accidentally pick the wrong arrow. Once he shoots the initial arrow, he will engage in melee, and despite being less skilled in martial arts, Buffy only appears to grapple if her opponent grapples, which it doesn't seem like GA does. GA has the potential to win or at least survive the initial incursion, in which case he could either continue or use more of his arrows, which Buffy would have a difficult time dealing with.

This really ended up making the fight sound more one-sided than it was. Corv did well in certain parts of the debate, such as how he laid out the argument for GA's in character behavior. However, in terms of the stats as presented, it seems like the in-character behavior didn't benefit Buffy enough. TooAmasian wins.

Embrace VS Kirb

This fight really ended up being about Cosmo's speed. This makes sense, given that the engagement will essentially be settled in one shot- either Kanade's swords slice off Cosmo's head, or Cosmo grapples Kanade and chokes her because she doesn't have any "choking durability" (???). Embrace started off strong with the 31 m/s calc, but then Kirbin countered with the expertly executed Kirb-posting strat where he argues a character as over tier in nearly every way except for one stat he intentionally leaves vague. Unfortunately for Kirbin, that was the striking/movement speed that ended up being really important. The foresight, the striking, the irresistable grappling and durability, everything went out the window when Kirbin said that Cosmo couldn't dodge an attack moving at 31 m/s, almost exactly the speed that Kanade's sword swings at. Embrace made some mistakes too (some arguments I thought were essentially based on speculating with no evidence, like "Cosmo COULD try to use striking" or "Howling COULD be high frequency"), but the fact that as-argued he will get hit by the sword and has no piercing durability is really hard to ignore. Embrace wins.

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RESULTS

TALV WINS 3-0

EMBRACE WINS 3-0, KIRBIN SWAPS TO HIS BACKUP

CORV WINS 2-1

Guy, verlux, wolf, tarro, and false also all go to the next round.