Marth ICS JMU Export

[9:07 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: https://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/
https://smashboards.com/threads/complete-ice-climbers-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285394/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRne5B9x61U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwDYPrg4UJE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nbaiWMZO9U
Smashboards
Data - COMPLETE: Marth Hitboxes and Frame Data
Part of the on-going Stratocaster's Hitbox Project Credits: Frame data: SuperDoodleMan Image compiling: Stratocaster Image Editing + Uploading: X1-12...

Smashboards
COMPLETE: Ice Climbers Hitboxes and Frame Data
Part of the on-going Stratocaster's Hitbox Project Credits: Frame data: SuperDoodleMan Image compiling: Stratocaster Image Editing: X1-12 All gifs are...

YouTube
Andre Felix
Nintendude (ICs) vs PewPewU (Marth) detailed play-by-play analysis pt. 1


YouTube
Andre Felix
Nintendude (ICs) vs PewPewU (Marth) detailed play-by-play analysis pt. 2


YouTube
SmashG0D
[melee-analysis] SmashG0D (Marth) vs Nintendude (Ice Climbers)


[9:16 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: hello friends
[9:17 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Whose side are you on again? <_<
[9:17 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: urs
[9:18 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: It's actually kind of useful that you've played both characters, my Marth is complete booty :(
[9:19 AM] Arasz: wow humanguy being the best spy I could ever wish for
[9:19 AM] Arasz: shit
[9:20 AM] tapsody: hey hey my fav MU
[9:24 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: i used to play marth and had a secondary ics for a totoal of an hour
[9:24 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: pretty experienced hhere
[9:24 AM] AL|HNinja: Reported for being too gud
[9:37 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Which Marths do you lose to play in your region @tapsody
[9:40 AM] tapsody: Dont have many marths in my region and I beat the ones I do play but there's a marth in cstat that im even with
[9:41 AM] tapsody: His tag is Quiteballin. Pretty patient, great spacing, technical, not afraid to dtilt/fair camp
[9:41 AM] tapsody: @Jago beat him tho
[9:41 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: Hello swoosh swoosh sword dudes
[9:42 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: got some stuff we can analyze
[9:43 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98sBAc0SmRA
YouTube
CLASH Tournaments
Olympus - dizzkidboogie (Ice Climbers) vs The Moon (Marth) - SSBM Grand Finals - Smash Melee - YouTube


[9:43 AM] not the jet fuel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qThUTktq-Q
YouTube
CEO Gaming
CEO2016 SSBM Top 8 - ROOT CHUDAT vs WFX SHROOMED


[9:47 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: ah back when he was rooy
[9:47 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: root
[9:50 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: game 2 and 3 of this set https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11CY4RkMRx8
YouTube
ShowdownGG
Press Start Day 2 - Top 32 - Winner Quarters: Shroomed (Marth/Sheik) vs Fly Amanita (ICs)


[9:51 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: shroomed goes shiek for the rest of the set, which is gross
[9:51 AM] Wafflecopter2000: Ok how the friggity fack do i beat fair spam
[9:51 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: doesnt he get reverse 30d
[9:52 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: waffle are they doing double fair
[9:54 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: If you WD in and shield you can mess up their spacing and get a grab potentially. WD in to call out them starting a SH Fair is pretty good and is what Chu uses a lot. You can SHFFL Fair with a read on their timing to try to sneak in there, same with WD back Bair. Even if you aren't spaced to grab you can do an aerial like Nair in between Fair swings of their SH if you shield the first. A super noncommital option is to iceblock to catch their landing but you have to get that distance to be safe with it.
[9:55 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I've been like Nair a lot at mid % because it can lead to platform tech-chases :o
[9:55 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: What is the on-shield frame data of fair?
[9:57 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Super late Marth Fair is like -1(edited)
[9:58 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: whos fair
[9:59 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: marf
[10:00 AM] Kaze: nvm i misinterpreted, should be 7 frames disadvantage(edited)
[10:04 AM] not the jet fuel: super late marth fair if spaced and lcancelled is 0
[10:04 AM] not the jet fuel: -1 for not-tip
[10:04 AM] not the jet fuel: not sure if hitting both climbers changes this
[10:04 AM] Kaze: you go through hitlag twice and each one of them only once, don't you?(edited)
[10:04 AM] not the jet fuel: but it definitely doesnt feel like it does in practice because fair dtilt generally keeps the IC in shield
[10:11 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: isnt marth fair neutral om shield
[10:12 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Yeah that's what MMF said, I wasn't thinking tipper so I said the -1 :o
[10:13 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: You only get double hitlag if the ICs shields are staggered in some way, for the most part this won't happen or at least it won't matter unless you miss the L-cancel because of it.
[10:15 AM] not the jet fuel: and i think we determined that if you ac the fair its like -2/-3 or something?
[10:18 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: also worth noting u basically cant directly punish a tupper fair on shield
[10:18 AM] Kaze: so, if you hit both shields in the same frame, it will only put you in hitlad once @Staggered || OddishGuy ?
[10:23 AM] Emerson_D: It'd be like hitting a shield normally, yes
[11:20 AM] Emerson_D: So if we stale fair enough, is it possible to get the down throw fair regrab?
[11:25 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: D-throw Fair regrab works at 0%, IDK if staling helps or hurts :thinking:
[11:48 AM] Emerson_D: It always feels like it helps, but I wasn't sure if it actually did anything
[11:58 AM] Rose: how does downthrow ---> dash attack ->>> upair shit work at mid percents? i get it sometimes
[12:01 PM] Ryse: What is ac nair on hit and shield
[12:02 PM] Ryse: As marth
[12:02 PM] Ryse: I played m2k for a while and he would react to desyncs with a FH ac nair above blizzard
[12:03 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: shffafnair is -2 or -3
[12:08 PM] Emerson_D: Speaking of which, what kind of options is marth looking to use against blizzard walling
[12:19 PM] Tucan: Marth just waits for blizzard then punishes, gets behind/above you and punishes
[12:20 PM] Tucan: Some marths also bait by going in on purpose and sdi'ng it, getting a punish on the grab ics try and do
[12:20 PM] not the jet fuel: just react to the spotdodge/roll and sdi hella yeah(edited)
[12:22 PM] Immersion101: Who wins this mu?
[12:28 PM] Tucan: Chudat :chu2king:
[12:28 PM] Immersion101: Yeahuzzz
[12:33 PM] not the jet fuel: in practice in 2016, ICs
in theory in most ppl opinion, Marth
in practice in 2017, shroomed
[12:35 PM] not the jet fuel: i like to say "even at best for ICs"
[12:37 PM] not the jet fuel: where the Marths at lol
[12:38 PM] not the jet fuel: their discords ic mu channel consistently has dope stuff in it
[12:41 PM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: This might be some useful information regarding the matchup (context: I asked wobbles in Axe's chat what to do if i get caught above marth)

[1:10 PM] Attempt: So do things at off timings and then you won't have to worry about being out ranged as much?
[1:30 PM] Emerson_D: It'll throw off the natural rhythm of his spacing. This is in the context of trying to get down from a juggle
[1:31 PM] Emerson_D: Marths moves aren't active for very long, so if he commits too early ics can get down fairly easily
[1:37 PM] Attempt: That makes sense. I do that a lot by airdoging into Marths bc it throws off spacing and they sometimes dont know how to react when you are on top of them
[1:39 PM] Attempt: I think getting the lead is super crucial in this MU bc blizzard can be so oppressive to a Marth thats forced to approach
[5:42 PM] Aiken: this matchup, like many matchups, is unwinnable for ICs if your opponent knows how to beat ICs
[5:46 PM] Friend: ?
[5:46 PM] Friend: like many matchups
[5:46 PM] Friend: im not sure if i agree with that rofl
[5:48 PM] Friend: i don't think any matchup is impossible for ices actually
[5:49 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: zelda tho
[5:49 PM] Friend: tru fuck that matchup
[5:49 PM] Friend: btw what do you guys think about icies using nair vs fair to counter marth's dtilt
[5:49 PM] Friend: ive always used fair
[5:49 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: use fair because he cant asdi down
[5:49 PM] Friend: but someone told me i should be using nair at low percents and while im inclined to believe that im worried about cc
[5:50 PM] Friend: especially since its really to just ditlt again if they were already dtilting
[5:50 PM] Friend: but fair doesn't guarentee a wobble in the same way nair can at low percents
[5:50 PM] Friend: you gotta read their tech
[5:50 PM] Friend: you don't even play icies
[5:50 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: WOW
[5:50 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: i was gonna say something but guess Ill just fuck off
[5:51 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: half the people in this discussion dont play ics SMH
[5:51 PM] Friend: im sry that was mean of me
[5:51 PM] Friend: go ahead
[5:51 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: no 2late
[5:51 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: u dont deserve me
[5:52 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so a lot of marths will keep holding down with dtilt especially if they want to dtilt again
[5:53 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: however if they plan to dash back theres a chance they will return to neutral to avoid backdash out of crouch position
[5:53 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: in that case nair would be fine unless they c stick down
[5:54 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: pretty sure nair is -6 on asdi down
[5:54 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so ur getting grabbed no matter what
[5:54 PM] Friend: @Staggered || OddishGuy do you know if there's a percent where Nair can't be asdi down but still connects to grab?
[5:54 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: open IKNEEDATA.COM/CALCULATOR
[5:55 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: wrong lino
[5:55 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: ikneedata.com/calculator
[5:55 PM] Friend: Ywah I'm just on my phone and he tends to know stuff like this p well
[5:55 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: oi nair is sakurai angle
[5:55 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so at 0 u can do it i think
[5:56 PM] Friend: Oh actually? I didn't know that
[5:56 PM] Friend: Lit
[5:57 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: im on phone too so its hard to change the input on ikd
[5:57 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: BUT at 80% he is still amsah teching with asdi dowm
[6:00 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: ok imma go upstairs and check on my computer
[6:02 PM] Friend: rip
[6:02 PM] Friend: kk
[6:02 PM] Friend: so i should just stick iwth fair
[6:03 PM] Friend: thats fine i guess. fair oos is fast enough to beat marth's fair -> dtilt on shield
[6:03 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: wait is it
[6:03 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: what jumpsquat r u
[6:03 PM] Friend: well the jump is fast enough
[6:03 PM] Friend: 3 frames
[6:03 PM] Friend: fastest jump squat
[6:03 PM] Friend: i think the fair comes out after the ftilt but youre above it so it misses and you get the fair
[6:04 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: but r u high enough to avoid dtilt
[6:04 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: i would imagine so
[6:04 PM] Friend: yeah
[6:04 PM] Friend: im 80% sure
[6:04 PM] Friend: its possible ive never played a marth who does the perfect fast fall fair tipper into dtilt
[6:04 PM] Friend: but its never not worked for me when they do fair -> dtilt
[6:04 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: yeah you should be fine then
[6:05 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: wait what frame is fair
[6:05 PM] Friend: slow
[6:05 PM] Friend: comes out on 19
[6:05 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so frame 22
[6:05 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: marths dtilt is actionable on frame 20
[6:06 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: he can actually shield it
[6:06 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: maybe dash back
[6:06 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: and he can spotdodge
[6:06 PM] Friend: yeah
[6:06 PM] Friend: marth's dtilt is interruptable on 20
[6:06 PM] Friend: and fair is neutral on shield
[6:07 PM] Friend: so theyu'd have 2 frames if htey do it perfectly to buffer spot dodge or shield
[6:07 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: yep
[6:07 PM] Friend: icies fair is a huge hitbox tho
[6:07 PM] Friend: so i really really doubt they can dash back
[6:07 PM] Friend: maybe dash forward would be better
[6:07 PM] Friend: ironically lol
[6:07 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: but if its a tipper dtilt you have to cover a lot of ground to hit them
[6:07 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so you may be hitting with the tip of fair
[6:07 PM] Friend: true but i don't think the fair is hitting yoru shield
[6:07 PM] Friend: (the marth's fair)
[6:07 PM] Friend: if they are spaced to do a tipper dtilt
[6:08 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: ya probably not
[6:08 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: unless u get shield pushed
[6:08 PM] Friend: usually my answer to fair camping is wd in -> shield -> get hit -> jump fair-> marth dtilts immediately cuz bad habbits -> i fair them
[6:08 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: then tech chase
[6:08 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: right
[6:08 PM] Friend: i think thats pretty good. ive been labbing this matchup a lot in 20xx recently but i still don't think im great at it
[6:09 PM] Friend: well cuz its me i usually miss the good hitbox and it throws them up in the air
[6:09 PM] Friend: and then i u-air them
[6:09 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: isnt that good too
[6:09 PM] Friend: tech chase is the dream tho lol
[6:09 PM] Friend: yeah but not free wobble good
[6:09 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: but u can make a wobble
[6:09 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: o marth is pretty easy to tech chase isnt he
[6:09 PM] Friend: i think so
[6:09 PM] Friend: hoenstly icies are pretty good at tech chasing in general
[6:10 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: fastest oprions are frame 3 jab frame 5 upb frame 2 spotdodge frame 4 roll
[6:10 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: and shield ofc
[6:10 PM] Friend: yeah but im tryin to grab them so they'd be dumb ot shield
[6:10 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: ya
[6:11 PM] nigo: are there any actual marths contributing to this yet?
[6:11 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: hallo
[6:11 PM] Friend: @nigo have you beaten smiles
[6:11 PM] nigo: a couple times before
[6:11 PM] nigo: he's a monster now
[6:12 PM] nigo: he used to camp me out with peach and i thought that was the worst of it
[6:12 PM] Friend: based fox and i both rly wanna win a FD and smiles/homestar/SK have  been making that shit hard af lol
[6:12 PM] Friend: ang too
[6:12 PM] Friend: but he doesn't go much anymore
[6:12 PM] nigo: you described my life ever since i started playing
[6:12 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: im a marth guys trust me
[6:12 PM] Friend: im confident i'd fuck up homestar's not peach characters toot bh
[6:13 PM] Herc_64: In that scenario tho isn't marths jab after the dtilt fast enough to stuff ICs fair?
[6:13 PM] Friend: isn't it frame 3?
[6:13 PM] Friend: marth ahs 2 frames
[6:13 PM] Herc_64: Or does it not reach high enough
[6:13 PM] Friend: it doesn't come out fast enough i think
[6:13 PM] Herc_64: Or does it not reach high enough
[6:14 PM] Friend: since jab is 3 frames and the fair comes out at 22
marth's dtilt is interruptable at frame 20 so marth would have 2 frames to do something before the fair hits
[6:14 PM] Friend: so buffer spotdodge or shield
[6:15 PM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: Did someone say that this matchup is unwinnable for ICS?
[6:16 PM] Herc_64: Ah gotcha
[6:17 PM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: Because that's just plain wrong
[6:17 PM] nigo: sometimes it feels like it does but really no matchup is unwinnable for ICs
[6:17 PM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: No matchup is unwinnable in general
[6:17 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so at 49 nair becomes amsah techd and not ccd
[6:19 PM] Herc_64: What's frame advantage for IC fair on shield btw?
[6:19 PM] Herc_64: I assume it's shield grabbable
[6:19 PM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: It is
[6:20 PM] Rose: i heard dtilt --> ftilt works good against icies shield
[6:20 PM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: I don't know per se because I'm on mobile
[6:21 PM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: From my personal experience in the mu I'd say that's true, but the numbers would probably say something different
[6:27 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: wait fair is -7 on shield
[6:27 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: is that right
[6:27 PM] Friend: icies fair? its pretty terrible
[6:27 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: idk how to calculate 2 fairs on shield
[6:28 PM] Emerson_D: Psure that you just take the last fair for shield stun
[6:29 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: we need an oddish
[6:34 PM] CookBook: Just make it 6 frames less
[6:34 PM] CookBook: So instead of -7 it's -1
[6:59 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: is that the actual calculation or a rough estimation
[7:02 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: ICs synched Fair is +2 for Popo
[7:03 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: OMG
[7:03 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: how to calculate it oddo
[7:03 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: or do you just test
[7:03 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I'm only on mobile so MB for being inactive ATM
stitch1
[7:04 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: i forgive u son
[7:04 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: 6+6-10=2
[7:04 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: wait why 6+6
[7:04 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: do u get two shieldstuns
[7:04 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: 6 stun, 6 nana
[7:05 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: imagine if there were doc climbers
[7:05 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: two fairs on shield
[7:05 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: 6 whole nana :ok_hand:
[7:05 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: 18 shieldstuns lul
[7:05 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: But yeah, blocking against ICs is a bad idea
[7:19 PM] nigo: anybody lab out what marth moves ICs can crouch cancel safely until?
[7:25 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: That's an MMF thing >_>
[7:25 PM] Friend: oh so then
[7:25 PM] Friend: if you shield their fair -> dtilt(edited)
[7:25 PM] Friend: and use fair oos to punish the dtilt(edited)
[7:25 PM] Friend: the only thing marth can do is buffer spot dodge
[7:26 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: He can F-smash and SH Fair
[7:26 PM] Friend: well thats assuming he doesn't dtilt right
[7:26 PM] Friend: not after the dilt
[7:26 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: yes
[7:26 PM] Friend: im just assuming hes gonna dtilt after the fair
[7:26 PM] Friend: and once he does that and i fair the only thing he can do to avoid the fair is buffer spotdodge
[7:27 PM] Friend: BUT WAIT
[7:27 PM] Friend: nana's fair will hit that
[7:27 PM] Friend: right?
[7:27 PM] Friend: cuz its 6 frames later
[7:27 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: No, assuming he does D-tilt he can F-smash or SH Fair before we can SH Fair
[7:27 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: no oddish u are jumping before the dtilt
[7:27 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so he fairs
[7:27 PM] Friend: wait i just like did the math
[7:28 PM] Friend: you jump after the fair before the dtilt
[7:28 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: and on first actionable frame he dtilts and u jump
[7:28 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Oh forshizzle
[7:28 PM] Friend: dtilt takes 20 frames before it can be canceled
[7:28 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: ur a shizzle
[7:28 PM] Friend: icies fair comes out on frame 22
[7:28 PM] Friend: nana's fair comes out on frame 28
[7:28 PM] Friend: so that'd p much fuck them
[7:29 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: spotdodge is intan 2-18
[7:29 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so nop
[7:29 PM] Friend: oh rip
[7:29 PM] Friend: thats a better spotdodge than i would've hoped
[7:30 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: he can always shield too
[7:30 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: or
[7:30 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: keep in mind this is a non tipper dtilt
[7:31 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so you can cc it and dash grab
[7:31 PM] Friend: well if its +2 on shield
[7:31 PM] Friend: im fine with him shielding
[7:31 PM] Friend: is that real people have told me that
[7:31 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: its +2 if low
[7:31 PM] Friend: and i get absolutely styled on
[7:32 PM] Friend: whenever i try to cc grab dtilt
[7:32 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: but idk if you will be hitting a low one
[7:32 PM] Friend: i also am really bad at dropping shield into crouch cancel
[7:32 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: wait how long is the drop shield animation i forget
[7:32 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: u might only be able to gwt asdi down
[7:32 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Depends on the character
[7:33 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: But typically WD down OoS is faster
[7:33 PM] ThaddeusT: would you guys not be worried about marth dashing back after a weak hit dtilt
[7:33 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Nah, Fair would catch that, it has decent range
[7:33 PM] Friend: yeah
[7:33 PM] Friend: they gotta buffer spot dodge or shield assuming you jump over the dtilt
[7:33 PM] Friend: the struggle is when they stop spamming dtilt after fair like an idiot
[7:33 PM] ThaddeusT: ic, didn't know fair is that good
[7:34 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: This is such a hard read on D-tilt @_@
[7:34 PM] Friend: and mix it up with another fair or fmash
[7:34 PM] Friend: yeah if they do anything else you get downsed on but thats the matchup
[7:34 PM] Friend: you have one option that beats dtilt and loses hard to literally everything else
[7:34 PM] Friend: and then then a bunch of options that lose to dtilt
[7:34 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: friend cc grab is real as long as they dtilt again or shield
[7:34 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: or mayve fsmash and fair
[7:35 PM] Friend: even if its fast enough to grab before the fsmash
[7:35 PM] Friend: that's ballsey as hell
[7:38 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: but u get a stock
[8:03 PM] jwalker: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/151877555
Twitch
Video day!! M2K vs Chu, PaNdOrAs_FoX run// THEN NETPLAY GRIND


[8:04 PM] jwalker: pewpewu's analysis of shroomed  - chudat, mew2king - chudat, pewpewu - nintendude
[8:09 PM] not the jet fuel: bruh if yall are fkn cc grabbing dtilt pls show me how
👍1
[8:11 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: @not the jet fuel https://youtu.be/87mJLwCTp7E
YouTube
ZilynGaming
MEW


[8:11 PM] Emerson_D: Hold down, dash in, Jc grab. Best I can figure
[8:13 PM] BillyBoPeep: its like impossible
[8:13 PM] Rose: are u talking about ccing marths dtilt?? couldnt he just do another one wijdjs(edited)
[8:13 PM] BillyBoPeep: unless marh is super shitty at spacing
[8:14 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: if he does another it makes it ez
[8:15 PM] Terradork: oh man, the pro strat
[8:15 PM] Terradork: go in super hard at 0 and pray you get through
[8:34 PM] not the jet fuel: spit out water at that vid
[8:34 PM] not the jet fuel: lmao
[8:34 PM] not the jet fuel: whenever i try to do that above even like 1% i just get knocked down
[8:34 PM] not the jet fuel: and then proceed to get fucked
[8:37 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: it works tho
[8:37 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: ppu says doc can cc dash attack vs dtilt
[8:37 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so u should be able.to grab
[8:44 PM] Rose: god imagine being icies and having enough gumption to try that
[8:45 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: uall have tiny balls
[10:51 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: ICs are slippery though, and our dash is pretty bad. If you want to CC Dash grab D-tilt you have to true CC it to save those extra frames, ASDI down CC won't be enough
[10:51 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: it's lame .-.
[11:08 PM] CookBook: just make him whiff a Dtilt then time a waveshield so that you get the base hitbox of the 2nd dtilt on shield and shieldgrab him(edited)
[11:11 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: but he could just grab
[11:11 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: dash back out of dtilt is also sick
June 16, 2017
[2:49 AM] Jago: Does anyone know the approximate %s that dthrow wd usmash works on a marth DI'ing out?
[2:50 AM] BillyBoPeep: Cant you just dash up smash
[2:50 AM] BillyBoPeep: to save frames
[2:54 AM] Jago: our dash is pretty bad and might not catch marth if he's full DI'ing. I'm not entirely sure though
[3:22 AM] not the jet fuel: its a % thing
[3:22 AM] not the jet fuel: ballpark numbers like 40-50 dash jc usmash higher than that need wd p sure
[3:23 AM] not the jet fuel: and before dash jc usmash is dash atk i think
[3:23 AM] not the jet fuel: someone should test and give more exact ones
[3:53 AM] Jago: yeah i believe dash attack is the best option at low %s
[3:53 AM] Jago: just dump all the work on oddish
[6:07 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: D-throw upsmash/ dash JC upsmash works until death on FD, so it goes for a while
[6:07 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Definitely cloesed out games for me before so I'd recommend practicing that ish for sure
[8:10 AM] Rose: ehh wouldnt they jump out at higher percents
[8:11 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: True combos
[8:15 AM] Rose: really????????????? noted
[10:09 AM] Jago: It's also a true combo on peach at kill percent
[2:22 PM] Herc_64: is there any tipper kill confirms off of fthrow/dthrow like there is for marth against puff
[2:22 PM] Herc_64: or does that not really work for climbers
[2:22 PM] CookBook: hmmm, not really
[2:22 PM] CookBook: DI dependant
[3:03 PM] Patio: Could it work similar to puff then? Possible regrab on f-throw/b-throw mixup to catch the di?
[3:04 PM] CookBook: Hmmm probably, couldn't say tbh
[3:05 PM] Rose: like if you hold in for DI youll definitely get hit with a forward smash
[3:06 PM] Rose: but i dont think its guarenteed in my experience
[3:17 PM] Aiken: you dont really need kill confirms on ICs
[3:17 PM] Aiken: just relentless option coverage
[3:17 PM] Aiken: they're shit so they won't be able to fight back once you've actually thrown them
[3:25 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I think Marth has the 50/50 tipper thing on sopo at relevant percents. Marth's throws are super scary
[3:31 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: marth can secure kills with upboos
[3:31 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: but u can amsah tech for years
[8:08 PM] redpandamaster17: how do i fight blizzard walls from ic's?
[8:11 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Dash -> aerials are pretty good, same for coming down from platforms. You can wait it out. One wacky thing is counter >_>
Main thing is that you want to focus on Popo. Blizzard is definitely punishable and Popo is going to be trying to prevent that, so focus on him and plan around his tendencies.(edited)
[8:12 PM] not the jet fuel: identify when thyere coming before the blizzard goes up
[8:16 PM] redpandamaster17: what do you mean by when they're coming
[8:16 PM] Friend: like if you know what desyncs icies
[8:16 PM] redpandamaster17: like i usually know they'll do it from a roll or dash dance
[8:16 PM] Friend: yeah ftilt and pivots are good to look out for too
[8:18 PM] redpandamaster17: also what throw should marth use for grabbing popo/nana
[8:21 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Upthrow is pretty alright, gives you time to combo the other
[8:25 PM] not the jet fuel: feel like fthrow/dthrow pivot fsmash should work
[8:25 PM] not the jet fuel: between the %s where you dont need to dash to followup at all and the %s where you have to wd fsmash after the throw
[8:25 PM] not the jet fuel: dont ask me what those %s are tho cus idfk
[8:26 PM] redpandamaster17: yeah i usually do that at higher percents, i was wondering about low percents
[8:26 PM] redpandamaster17: feel like i dont get too much off fthrow
[8:29 PM] not the jet fuel: dthrow fair below that?
[8:29 PM] not the jet fuel: not sure how DI affects these either
[8:29 PM] not the jet fuel: or if marth even has a true flowchart
[8:30 PM] redpandamaster17: yeah ill try that and uthrow at low percents
[8:30 PM] not the jet fuel: yea if all else fails can always just
[8:30 PM] not the jet fuel: put them in the air with uthrow(edited)
[8:30 PM] not the jet fuel: and make them come down
[8:30 PM] not the jet fuel: and get utilted
[8:46 PM] redpandamaster17: ok one last thing
[8:46 PM] redpandamaster17: if i hit a late fair on shield and i know the ic's will roll behind me
[8:47 PM] redpandamaster17: what do i do
[8:48 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Tipper I guess :o
[8:48 PM] Emerson_D: Either that or turnaround grab
[8:52 PM] Ryse: Upthrow Is the best throw
[8:52 PM] Ryse: You can up air then easier than sheik so they should never come back down
[8:53 PM] Emerson_D: But ics dair is frame 3 Kappa
[8:53 PM] Ryse: But marth has a sword no kappa
[8:54 PM] Emerson_D: But ics have hammers no kappa Kappa
[8:55 PM] redpandamaster17: yeah i think my problem was i'd always punish roll behind with grab
[8:55 PM] redpandamaster17: and get weak punishes
[8:55 PM] Ryse: :Popo:
:hammer:
:dagger:
:dagger:
:Marth~1:
[8:56 PM] Ryse: See that's difference
[8:59 PM] Emerson_D: So what's you're saying is that marths up air out ranges ics dair?! What madness is this
[9:17 PM] not the jet fuel: if you know they roll behind you
[9:17 PM] not the jet fuel: uh
[9:17 PM] not the jet fuel: thats actually interesting
[9:17 PM] not the jet fuel: i guess you would just wait out the roll
[9:18 PM] not the jet fuel: and punish at the end with w/e
[9:18 PM] not the jet fuel: but there isnt actually much marth can do to get a hit before the roll intan starts is there?
[9:19 PM] not the jet fuel: nah jabbing isnt even worth mentioning probs
[9:21 PM] redpandamaster17: i've seen ken jab shield and then get an easy grab on reaction vs buffer roll
[9:23 PM] redpandamaster17: in my experience if i hit a late fair kind of close to their shield i can't really get a reaction punish vs roll
[9:23 PM] redpandamaster17: like i can dash forwards through their shield and set myself up to react, but that loses to other stuff
[9:32 PM] CookBook: Side b
[9:39 PM] redpandamaster17: will nana asdi that down if you're holding down?
June 17, 2017
[12:39 AM] CookBook: nope
[12:40 AM] CookBook: she'll cc
[12:40 AM] CookBook: but not asdi
[12:40 AM] CookBook: prtty sure
[11:53 AM] ✯Ichigo_ŘΔмєη ✯🈶: Wobble
[12:00 PM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: @✯Ichigo_ŘΔмєη ✯🈶 oh?
[12:00 PM] ✯Ichigo_ŘΔмєη ✯🈶: oh?
[12:00 PM] ✯Ichigo_ŘΔмєη ✯🈶: @Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner
[12:01 PM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: wobbling tends to be effective in most matchups, yes
[12:01 PM] ✯Ichigo_ŘΔмєη ✯🈶: is an i5 and a gtx 960m good for melee
[12:01 PM] not the jet fuel: yea ur good
[12:01 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: wrong channel
[12:01 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: smg
[2:38 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: has anyone looked into shield di in on dtilt and fair
[3:42 PM] Attempt: Tried to test getting a grab off dtilt w shield DI and it doesn't seem great. Especially bc nana gets shield stabbed so easily.
[3:44 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: ah
[3:48 PM] Herc_64: As far as what throw marth should use, I imagine early game fthrow/dthrow is almost always good since you can lead into fsmash with it which will almost always hit Nana even if you miss popo
[3:48 PM] Herc_64: Also you have to keep in mind the fact that the character you fthrow turns into a hitbox that can hit the other climber
[3:49 PM] Herc_64: Seems to be something pewpewu does a lot
[3:52 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: upthrow is never bad
[4:08 PM] Attempt: One thing thats worth mentioning that Dizz talked about was that people reeeeallly need to start grabing climbers while they are invincible. Climbers struggle against invulnerability more than other characters since they are ground based and cant run to platforms to avoid attack. Also while your invinvible you dont have to worry about one climber hitting you before throw invincibility.
[4:09 PM] kancon1: That is really good advice
[4:11 PM] kancon1: Also when they are doing ice block or blizzard alternating you want to aim for Nana right?  I forgot why though.
[4:26 PM] Herc_64: Does fsmash out range blizzard?
[4:43 PM] skeleton sword (choknater): i've learned to start trusting my wavelanding skills when it comes to invincibility
[4:44 PM] skeleton sword (choknater): trying to juke on the ground is sometimes too difficult and not worth it, esp against characters that will corner you super easily
[4:44 PM] skeleton sword (choknater): like vs spacies, i trust my mobility and try to waveland on a platform/platforms if necessary
[5:42 PM] kancon1: I assume you are talking about ice climbers?
[5:42 PM] kancon1: And I'm not sure, but I think fsmash clanks with blizzard
[5:44 PM] kancon1: Hard to say if fsmash outranges it
[5:56 PM] tapsody: it does
[5:56 PM] tapsody: and it doesnt
[5:57 PM] tapsody: blizzards particles are based are rng
[5:57 PM] tapsody: and only some of them actually outrange fsmash lmao
[5:57 PM] tapsody: its pretty dumb
[6:03 PM] Rose: so max range blizzards usually dont get wobbles?
[6:40 PM] Attempt: I think one of the main detterents is the fact that if you miss and get hit you can get grabbed.
[6:40 PM] Attempt: But it doesnt always
[6:41 PM] Attempt: Also dont try to shield blizzard, you almost always want to SDI out if you can
[7:47 PM] Herc_64: When you say sdi out
[7:48 PM] Herc_64: Basically just waggle the control stick out right?
[8:28 PM] Jago: Basically. You wanna SDI it up or up/away
[8:29 PM] Jago: So you can just quarter circle it
June 18, 2017
[10:03 AM] kingkiller: I just played this matchup in bracket for the first time in a while. How do I, as Marth, escape dair regrab to wobble.
[10:06 AM] not the jet fuel: lol
[10:11 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: It's never true, just make sure you aren't SDIing down. You can hold up on the stick and spam jump I think, or you can do C-stick up, freeing up the control stick so you can tap jump. Tap jump has that buffer that will help a bit.
[12:16 PM] Friend: just holdl up and out]
[12:19 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: so when marth fairs your shield, I think asdi down roll or delayed roll is a prrety good option, it forces him to dash through you if he wants to punish and I guess you could shield grab at that poimt
[12:22 PM] not the jet fuel: its hard to keep a big neough shield to take both a fair and then a dtilt and then not get shield poked for ics
[12:23 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: but if u roll u avoid dtilt
[12:23 PM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: or u could fair and beat the dtilt and only that
[12:46 PM] kingkiller: I may have been ASDIing down
[12:47 PM] kingkiller: Thanks.
[12:49 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: It's a really common thing to ASDI down and away and get whooped on by reverse Dair because you're trying to combo DI
[12:50 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Even Peaches get hit by that ish so no worries fam
[12:50 PM] kingkiller: Yeah. It's a little sad because that's all that player ever does if they get a grab they can't wobble off of.
[12:51 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Risk reward is skewed if people miss the DI on it even once
[12:52 PM] kingkiller: Do ics have an option that covers that or do they just chase your dj?
[12:54 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I've seen Nintendude do D-throw Dair -> FH Upair/Nair
[12:55 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: So it's not like you get out without any worries, but it's not a guaranteed wobble or anything so :ok_hand:
[1:33 PM] Herc_64: So as marth you have to di out and up to escape dthrow dair setup?
[1:34 PM] Herc_64: I was told you should di down and away to escape that
[1:34 PM] not the jet fuel: that's for fast fallers
[1:34 PM] Herc_64: I was playing fox tho at the time, lol, so that's probably why
[1:34 PM] Herc_64: Ah gotcha
[1:34 PM] Herc_64: So up and out for floaties then
[1:34 PM] Herc_64: I'll have to remember that
[1:56 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Yeah floaties never touch the ground and DJ out, FFers touch the ground ASAP and attack or dodge.
June 19, 2017
[4:52 AM] Herc_64: Climbers can pretty much always punish fsmash on shield worth wd grab UNLESS it's tippered correct?
[4:52 AM] Herc_64: Though I guess you probably shouldn't go for raw fsmashes against climbers regardless
[4:53 AM] Herc_64: Or can they still punish even if it's tippered
[5:36 AM] Ryse: No fsmash in neutral is bad
[5:36 AM] Ryse: Tipper is safe though
[6:23 AM] FA0: F-smash happy Marths are delicious
👍1
[9:46 AM] Arasz: DAS youre from EU right? Wanna play netplay sometime to Grind the MU?
[10:07 AM] not the jet fuel: was that a typo for FAO lol
[10:17 AM] Attempt: Something I saw Chu do a lot vs M2K at BfBC was Uair after M2K Faires his shield because he was double jumping away after.
[10:19 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: Ah, yes
[10:19 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: Good observation
[10:20 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: I think he could connect with a second fair, though
[10:20 AM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: Timing dependent I guess
[10:26 AM] not the jet fuel: yeah he should just be able to fair fair
[10:28 AM] Herc_64: Pewpewu was criticising a lot of m2ks double jumps in neutral when he was analyzing that set
[10:29 AM] Herc_64: Seems like ppu thinks marth should primarily be grounded in the mu
[10:29 AM] Herc_64: Well grounded and moving lol
[10:35 AM] Attempt: I think I agree with that. I think the followup off fair should mostly be dtilt or dash away ( if its late hitting ). Im not 100% though
[10:53 AM] not the jet fuel: if you abuse fair dtilt as jetfuel said they can just start fairing OOS
[10:53 AM] not the jet fuel: its important to keep a rhythm with fair and dtilt without becoming too predictable
[10:53 AM] not the jet fuel: the later the set goes, the more you might get out of just fairing and waiting
[10:55 AM] Michael Palmiter (Eclipse): What do y'all think about Shdf and shffl/shac nair? (For Marth)
[10:58 AM] not the jet fuel: shdf = ?
[10:58 AM] not the jet fuel: oh double fair
[10:59 AM] not the jet fuel: that is prob too rsiky vs a good ics, the second fair is kinda screaming at them to ASDI punish if it would ever actually hit
[11:00 AM] not the jet fuel: nair can get pretty shieldgrabbable but if youre doing it well it wont be
[11:02 AM] Arasz: It was lmao, autocorrect is the fucking worst
[11:05 AM] Attempt: Using fair to beat out WD in when they cant CC it is decent. You cant spam it though because WD in shield can potentially lead to a sheild grab
[11:06 AM] Attempt: Also I think the only times you should use fsmash in this matchup is as a followup if fair connects and for edgeguarding
[11:07 AM] Attempt: Unless your a god and can space tippers all day
[11:59 AM] not the jet fuel: i didnt realize it wasnt punishable if it tippered, ive pretty much always (tried to) WD oos grab fsmashes no matter what(edited)
[1:06 PM] Herc_64: PPU also mentioned that you should almost never sh double fair in this matchup due to how easy it is to grab that
[1:06 PM] Herc_64: He also mentioned empty hop dtilt a lot, which definitely seems good
[1:06 PM] Herc_64: Honestly the way PPU broke it down makes the mu seems really hard for climbers if you play correctly
[2:01 PM] not the jet fuel: yeah you can grab inbetween fairs im p sure
[3:29 PM] Tovl: mute
[8:24 PM] Emerson_D: So what are cc percents looking like for ICs?
[8:30 PM] not the jet fuel: with marth you cant look at %s alone cause he can kind of space outside of punish range
[8:30 PM] not the jet fuel: which is unusual for IC matchups
[8:53 PM] Emerson_D: Makes sense, I was mostly curoius on whether cc fair walls was a good option
[8:54 PM] Emerson_D: like WD in cc his fair grab
June 20, 2017
[12:22 AM] not the jet fuel: yea def worth knowing the numbers for
[12:26 AM] Jago: So, stages
[12:26 AM] Jago: Which ones do you guys like for this mu?
[12:27 AM] Jago: I used to strike to yoshi's allll the time, but not anymore
[12:27 AM] Jago: And FD is my go-to counterpick
[12:58 AM] not the jet fuel: i think we win fd and dreamland, lose battlefield, other 3 not sure
[12:59 AM] not the jet fuel: i dont particularly like yoshis here either
[1:08 AM] Jago: Yeah marth usually CPs to BF if Yoshi's is banned in my experience
[1:09 AM] Jago: I like yoshi's because it's easy to take center stage and force him to maneuver around plats
[1:10 AM] Jago: Plus he dies at like 70 off the top if you hit his feet with the charger upsmash
[1:10 AM] Jago: Randall shenanigans suck hard so I feel like it's a coin flip
[1:11 AM] Jago: Marth also gets hella free tippers so idk
[1:13 AM] Friend: i usually strike to fountain
[1:13 AM] Friend: they're all bad except fd and dreamland tho
[1:14 AM] Jago: I'm iffy about fountain
[1:14 AM] Jago: The plats can cause easy separations but you can also get marth in a lot of knockdown situations
[1:15 AM] Jago: I don't hate it but I don't love it either
[1:16 AM] Friend: the way i see it
[1:16 AM] Friend: is that on yoshis the platforms are always bad
[1:16 AM] Friend: and on fod the platforms are sometimes terrible but sometimes nonexistant
[1:16 AM] Friend: yoshis has the added factor of causing nana to act like an idiot half o the time
[1:20 AM] CookBook: yea
[1:20 AM] CookBook: T_T
[1:21 AM] CookBook: she really doesn't like slopes
[1:30 AM] Jago: True. The fact that she always jumps when you wavedash towards (or away?) the ledge really ticks me off
[1:31 AM] Jago: I've had a good track record against Marth's on yoshi's until recently, so I'm a bit biased.
[1:33 AM] Jago: Those blast zones are so tempting tho lmao
[5:39 AM] Emerson_D: How do y'all feel about stadium? I think it's better than yoshis, but still worse than fd and dreamland
[6:20 AM] Rose: i like it. a lot of room for desyncs
[8:50 AM] kingkiller: I actually don't hate FD in this matchup. I think marth gets huge reward for a separation (compared to other stages) so his grab becomes way more threatening.
[8:53 AM] kingkiller: I think dreamland is super ICs favored unless marth gets a lead but he can platform camp super hard.
[8:54 AM] kingkiller: M2k has convinced me of the merits of yoshi's with the planking strategy he used to employ.
[8:56 AM] kingkiller: That seems difficult for climbers to beat and the matchup is normally marth favored anyway since the smaller blast zones stand to benefit marth more anyway.
[8:59 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I feel like blizzards on FD are often too much to deal with, and with an active hitbox like that there's no worry of grabs. What do you typically go for against blizzard on FD KingKiller? :o
[9:01 AM] kingkiller: I mean, can't you just SDI away?
[9:02 AM] kingkiller: Like, I just think, if I am consistent with the sdi, the reward is super low.
[9:02 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: You for sure can, but there's no risk throwing it out if you can't counter attack it, you feel?
[9:04 AM] kingkiller: Even if it hits most of the time, it doesn't matter because if I go over I get a huge reward off of fair but if i get caught by it then I just escape for free.
[9:04 AM] kingkiller: I could be wrong about this though.
[9:05 AM] CookBook: if you go over with fair we can shieldgrab with popo
[9:05 AM] CookBook: 100%
[9:05 AM] kingkiller: I can just do a low fair though
[9:05 AM] CookBook: approaching fairs are super shieldgrabbable
[9:05 AM] kingkiller: That is 100% safe on shield
[9:06 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I feel like mostly the Popo's job would be to space an Upair on your FH
[9:07 AM] kingkiller: So, in your example is popo in front of nana now?
[9:08 AM] kingkiller: In that case, don't you sacrifice some of the disjoint that makes blizzard so threatening?
[9:08 AM] kingkiller: The other thing I can do is wd dtilt the lag of blizzard
[9:08 AM] CookBook: i mean, if you're going for a fullhop that is very reactable
[9:09 AM] CookBook: and we can just dash forward and FH up air
[9:09 AM] kingkiller: What if I space to hit nana with the fair?
[9:10 AM] CookBook: i'm talking about intercepting you before you can get to that point
[9:10 AM] kingkiller: Ok. That reaction is early enough that I can triangle jump to bait the upair then
[9:12 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: :thinking:
[9:12 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I feel like triangle jumpin is pretty bad, but I've actually never heard it recommended before
[9:13 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: It'd be extremely hard to perform on the Marth's end to outspace the Upair, and land with such a timing that Nana can't punish
[9:14 AM] kingkiller: The other thing I could do is sh in place and then fair your upair.
[9:15 AM] kingkiller: The other counterplay I have considered is SDI up and in.
[9:15 AM] kingkiller: Then you can have a mixup where you either sdi super far to safety or put yourself in a position to threaten a low fair
[9:16 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I like that one a lot
[9:16 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I always recommend that to Luigis
[9:16 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Because they come down on the whiffed grab with a fat Nair :O
[9:17 AM] kingkiller: Yeah. You also only need like five frames because marth's fair is stupid.
[9:37 AM] Emerson_D: without platforms to escape to, you have to get a punish after the blizzard walls, or ics can just keep doing it until you mess up and get grabbed
[9:38 AM] Emerson_D: You'd have to be pretty on point in order for FD to work out well for marth
[9:39 AM] Attempt: Its also not like a free escape, you can get a fsmash off if you sdi too far up for a grab
[9:39 AM] Attempt: Better than getting grabbed but still some %
[9:41 AM] Emerson_D: Overall, I like to fight marth on FD, DL, and PS, and don't like to fight on YS, FoD, and BF. So the first game seems rather important. Unfortunately marth gets stage strike advantage
[9:48 AM] kingkiller: You can sdi high enough that fsmash doesn't work either
[9:48 AM] kingkiller: Or you can sdi away as a mixup and then punish
[9:49 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: F-smash actually hits stupid high
[9:49 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: As much as I think the move is garbage
[9:50 AM] kingkiller: Yeah. SDI is broken though.
[9:51 AM] kingkiller: You can definitely get high enough to avoid fsmash.
[9:52 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: High enough to avoid Upsmash?
[9:52 AM] kingkiller: I don't know. It might depend on which part of blizzard hits.
[9:53 AM] Emerson_D: Or uptilt?
[9:53 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: It was kind of a trick question because F-smash hits as high as both of those
[9:54 AM] Emerson_D: Which upsets me only a lot a bit
[9:57 AM] kingkiller: Really? The answer is probably still the same.
[9:58 AM] kingkiller: At least as long as Marth is towards the far end of blizzard.
[9:58 AM] kingkiller: He may even be able to asdi.
[9:59 AM] kingkiller: Since blizzard has so many hits.
[10:00 AM] kingkiller: Plus, the highest part of fsmash is right above their head which is somewhere Marth won't be.
[10:06 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I was assuming WD F-smash since Marth is going to be over there either way
[10:18 AM] kingkiller: Ok. Don't you have to read the SDI then?
[10:23 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: It should catch SDI away or SDI up with good spacing. If they're consistenly SDIing away I think the F-smash is decent, but if they're SDIing up I think trying to catch the Marth coming down has larger payoff
[10:23 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Depends on % and spacing and ish tho
[11:05 AM] not the jet fuel: M2ks planking on Yoshis probably shouldn't work lol. Marth on ledge is one of the easiest Marths for ICs to kill, you do like nothing threatening from there and they can just ice block u until u mess up
[11:32 AM] kingkiller: I think it is possible to just not mess up.
[11:32 AM] kingkiller: M2k has certainly done it.
[11:33 AM] kingkiller: It's pretty difficult to get a punish off of an iceblock hit
[11:34 AM] kingkiller: I still think marth can sdi high enough to escape
[11:34 AM] not the jet fuel: if u hit them at the edge with an iceblock u prob just Marth killer them from there
[11:36 AM] kingkiller: I mean, depending on what I just did, I may be able to airdodge on.
[11:36 AM] kingkiller: Or, I might have my dj.
[11:36 AM] kingkiller: Plus I have my side b and can go to platforms
[11:37 AM] kingkiller: I probably get hit but am in a good position to recover
[11:37 AM] not the jet fuel: or you could, you know, just play grounded neutral which is actually threatening to ICs
[11:38 AM] kingkiller: But why do that when I can just sit there and win?
[11:38 AM] not the jet fuel: because you aren't gonna just sit there and win lol
[11:38 AM] kingkiller: Ice block can't dislodge me unless I seriously screw up.
[11:39 AM] not the jet fuel: ok man
[11:39 AM] kingkiller: I'm open to being convinced by other methods of countering though.
[11:42 AM] not the jet fuel: i mean camping like that isn't a counter at all
[11:42 AM] not the jet fuel: you're playing against a character who can projectile at you almost risklessly in that scenario
[11:43 AM] not the jet fuel: like you basically only saw it in that one game of m2k wobbles where wobbles just doesn't care enough to play against it at pax arena right? that basically doesn't happen if u aren't like 3rd in the world vs 30th lol
[11:44 AM] kingkiller: But the correct execution doesn't get hit ever by ice block.
[11:44 AM] not the jet fuel: lol
[11:45 AM] not the jet fuel: ok, if you think you'll always have perfect execution every ledgestall forever
[11:46 AM] not the jet fuel: Irl what usually happens when people argue like this is they don't have perfect execution 100/100 times and even if they mess it up only once the end result is you wasted 4 minutes of screen time and just died when 4 minutes should be enough for Marth to take like three stocks on Yoshis if he actually plays the game lol
[11:47 AM] not the jet fuel: nice risk reward for a character that should almost never lose grounded neutral in the mu
[11:57 AM] kingkiller: The stall isn't hard though. It is super lenient since all you need to do is dj sweetspot.
[11:58 AM] kingkiller: The thing about yoshi's is that marth has an enormous threatening range from the ledge on yoshi's so the climbers have to respect more space.
[12:01 PM] kingkiller: If I didn't explain clearly, the release has at least 5 frames leniency and the jump has at least as much.
[12:28 PM] not the jet fuel: isn't having to expend ur dj in the process a bug, not a feature? like it wouldn't seem as bad to me if it was like fox's stall where you can retain your dj if you get hit
[1:08 PM] CookBook: you will fuck it up eventually, get hit by an ice block, and in the end be forced to up b onto stage or get pummeled by frozen bricks until you fall to your death(edited)
[1:08 PM] CookBook: except on yoshi's
[1:09 PM] CookBook: cos yoshi's ledges are fucking BS and eat ice blocks for no reason
[1:14 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: YS ledges do what to iceblocks? Seems to work fine from what I can see
[1:15 PM] CookBook: for me they just disappear at the ledge a lot
[1:17 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Oh whoa
[1:18 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Yeah it happens sometimes with SH iceblocks it looks like WTF
[1:18 PM] CookBook: basically eats all my pivot nana jump ice blocks without fail
[1:19 PM] not the jet fuel: it has to do with where you ice block from right?
[1:19 PM] CookBook: dunno really
[1:19 PM] CookBook: something like that
[2:49 PM] Attempt: Does it work if you make it go on the platform? Like will it go past the ledge?
[2:50 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Yeah iceblocks are too fast. On DL it might still hit ledge, on FoD it likely would as well
[7:24 PM] Emerson_D: Is sliphogging ever worth it against Marth, or should we just desync ice block / Marth-Killer
[7:32 PM] kingkiller: Sliphogging?
[7:33 PM] kingkiller: I haven't encountered the term before
[7:46 PM] Am i Fuel yet? | djwagner: it's ICs edgeguard tech
[7:56 PM] Jago: With how fast Marth accelerates with up-b, I don't think it would be worth
[7:57 PM] Jago: Ice block marth killer would be most optimal. Ledgehop nair is also pretty good. The back hit of the hitbox sends away at a decent angle. Kinda hard to time tho
[7:58 PM] Jago: Wavedash off FF Bair can catch lazy Marths
[9:10 PM] Rose: didnt we conclude it was useful but hard
[9:10 PM] Rose: and a little not worth because of it
[9:15 PM] Rose: oh i meant @ sliphogginh
[10:24 PM] Jago: Yeah probs not as useful against marth as opposed to spacies
[10:28 PM] Jago: If he's dipping low it's easier to just set up marth killer
[10:29 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: I use it when the Marth is coming down and still has the DJ Fair -> grab ledge possible mixup. It at least lets you negate that a bit
[10:30 PM] Jago: That seems good. He would just swat the ice block away if you went for that
June 21, 2017
[1:48 AM] CookBook: Sliphogging is when icies wd back to ledge while holding shield so they tumble off it, then instantly ledgehop or ledgedash so nana grabs the ledge
[3:10 AM] vliegende snor: and it's the best thing that ever existed
[3:23 AM] CookBook: Meeeeeeh....
[3:23 AM] CookBook: It's okaaaay
[9:28 AM] kingkiller: That's actually sick.
[9:29 AM] kingkiller: Can you desync during the 8 frames after the ledgegrab?
[10:05 AM] Jago: Yeah you can buffer something
[10:10 AM] CookBook: i mean, it's more a desync that already has a purpose, mainly to put nana on the ledge while you can edgeguard with popo
[10:32 AM] kingkiller: But if you desynch than you can roll with nana to significantly extend the duration of the ledge grab.
[10:39 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Can't control Nana once she's on the edge. We regain control once she's done with her getup option
[10:42 AM] CookBook: *we can regain control once she's done with her getup option
[10:43 AM] CookBook: still gotta be near her on the ground in order to reconnect
[10:46 AM] CookBook: not well known fact: nana can only reconnect with us when we're on the ground
[10:46 AM] CookBook: however, when she reconnects she will read 6 frames back to see what she should be doing
[10:47 AM] CookBook: so anytime we land near a disconnected nana, we can make her do something -instantly-
[10:50 AM] kingkiller: This character is so weird
[10:51 AM] CookBook: tis what makes them interesting
[10:54 AM] kingkiller: I agree
[10:55 AM] kingkiller: This matchup has been super tough for me to understand though.
[10:55 AM] kingkiller: It's my worst one other than falco (also weird but for different reasons)
[11:15 AM] CookBook: other wierd shit:
we have a 2 angle window for doing a sync'd shield drop as opposed to the 3 that other characters have for their shield drops due to sensitivity desyncs.
Nana was likely made unable to pivot by the devs because of the mechanic that makes Ftilt guard work
[11:17 AM] CookBook: oh, and it's possible to make nana standing solo ice block without popo doing anything with no prior setup
[11:17 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: She can pivot, just doesn't during dashdance ish
[11:17 AM] CookBook: that's basically what i'm referring to
[11:18 AM] CookBook: cos backdash pivots would make her act really wierdly
[11:19 AM] CookBook: if she could do one she'd do a full turnaround animation then walk in the new direction
[2:34 PM] Kaze: what's the consensus on approaching with fullhop early fair? (as marth) it seems fairly safe to me, considering i can just land on a platform afterwards - is there anything ICs can do, except calling it out and hitting me before the fair even comes out?
[2:37 PM] Staggered || OddishGuy: FHing is generally pretty solid. Main answer would be ICs using SH Upair. If you're typically grounded this is a pretty good mixup since the IC's SH Upair is bad against most other ish, but if you're already platform heavy they'll be throwing out the Upair anyway and catch you with this type of approach :S
[2:42 PM] Kaze: i usually only jump onto platforms, if the ICs are either far away or if i am cornered as a mixup. going there when they are closer seems risky, since the landing lag from the waveland... im rather inexperienced in the matchup - what is marths goal when on a platform? baiting out a bad u - air/cornering them with a runoff bair/just staying safe while baiting whiffed moves? those are what i've been going for so far, but maybe i am overseeing things.
[5:35 PM] AL|HNinja: just a random thing. my brother was thinking of switching off YN and playing Marth, any tips?
[8:40 PM] MCMike0399: Ill drop what I know about the MU.
The key in this mu is movement.
As ics, you need to watch out for: double fair short hop, dtilt, grabs into pivot fsmash and raw fsmash.
Double fair short hop is a killer, in low % you can crouch cancel but marth can fall back to get safe. As ics the only option you can do is wait for the opportunity and punish (when marrht is in lag), still is difficult to get something. That’s why movement is key.
Dtilt can be beaten by well-spaced short hop fair or movement. You cannot punish dtilt with a  wavedash out of shield.
For grabs theres an easy solution, just DI out. Watch out with the DI mixups
Just practice your smashes Out of shield for raw fsmashes, you can get a lot out of this.
Desync Bllizard is a good tool for the neutral and zoning, use it wisely.
Ice blocks are not that great in this mu, but still you can get a tricky wobble or some advantage in the neutral.
d-throw regrab doesn’t work on marth(edited)
June 22, 2017
[12:09 AM] Rose: i thought it worked at near zero no DI
[12:11 AM] Staggered || OddishGuy: Nah they can always jump out, but go for the regrab the first time you play a Marth to test them or to keep them honest, sometimes they try to Fair like a dumby
[7:41 AM] Fuel | lɘυꟻ: bye friends!
[12:17 PM] Friend: im friend!
[2:20 PM] Herc_64: As marth, if ICs are di'ing away off the fthrow, if you instead dthrow them to get the di mixup, is there any situation/percentage where you can tipper fsmash them?
[2:20 PM] Herc_64: Like pivot fsmash or something to that effect?
[2:24 PM] not the jet fuel: if they're DIing in? yeah stuff like that should work