FroastyToday at 11:12 AM
For the Beheeyem Specs set: Where should we put the last 4 EVs? If 212 HP is used then its hp is divisible by 8, meaning it takes more damage from Stealth Rock.

For bulky setup sweeper: CM + Psychium Z should be  added to that, since it's both actually really annoying to try to beat safely and uniquely good at causing problems for Floatzel because of its immunity to Trick, increased special defense from Calm Mind to easily eat a Specs Hydro Pump if needed and access to a one time nuke in case of taunt. It's also notable that CM can more freely use Psyshock because of Psychium Z, which allows it to still be able to hit on either the physical or special side with STAB if necessary. I've lost to this set a few times and used it a few times.

For OTR: I think Colbur Berry should be slashed as an item. Maybe Psychium Z too. Any others you can think of that need to go on and opinions on those two?
XayahToday at 11:24 AM
If we have 4 EVs left they may as well go into Defense or Speed or smtg, doesn’t really matter
Agree on CM Psychium on Setup and on Colbur on OTR, but honestly I’d sooner run Ghostium on OTR than Psychium
DiagnosticToday at 11:29 AM
Psychium Z > Ghostium Z on OTR for the sheer ability to break past SpD defensive walls not named Bronzor and checks that may try and attempt to switch-in plus have an "unblockable" Trick Room for one turn. Ghostium helps with Bronzor but is not overall more useful for beating anything that normal Shadow Ball can't cover.
XayahToday at 11:32 AM
A slightly weakened Bronzor goes down to Never Ending Nightmare into SBall, while regular SBall (assuming Psychium so no LO) does ~35, meaning you waste TR turns
Seeing as how Bronzor is the most common switch-in to BEM, being able to actually break it when people try to preserve it for late is good
Normally BEM can do that already but TR means it doesn’t get the Analytic boost
DiagnosticToday at 11:34 AM
We are talking about for sample based cases correct?
As in simplified evs and such?
XayahToday at 11:36 AM
252+ SpA Beheeyem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 100-118 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO
jklioeToday at 11:36 AM
i can see the argument for Z-Shadow Ball and willing to back up on that idea, given how you're supposed to build with that set
Beheeyem shouldn't really be trying to break so much as to sweep
since that set can viably be ran with Trick Room breakers already+other wallbreakers
DiagnosticToday at 11:37 AM
Because if so, I understand where you are coming from with the above, but Zor should never be an issue for OTR beheyeem since it should not dedicate a slot to have a slightly better MU vs bronzor when Life Orb is generally acceptable and you have teammates that pair with OTR to take on a wallbreaker role and remove said checks.
Sniped me @jklioe
jklioeToday at 11:38 AM
;o
XayahToday at 11:38 AM
You can say ‘it’s a sweeper not a breaker’ but when I see a BEM and have a Bronzor, I’ll do whatever I can to keep it alive until late game because I know just as well as my opponent what BEM does
jklioeToday at 11:39 AM
well another thing to consider is that Bronzor is mainly what's stopping Beheeyem from spamming high-powered psychic moves in the first place
XayahToday at 11:39 AM
I’ll let it maybe take 10% chip or smtg by coming in on rocks twice
But that’s it
jklioeToday at 11:39 AM
so being able to surprize that with a z-sball early/mid-game is also huge for enabling psychic spam later
XayahToday at 11:39 AM
So BEM saying oh hey, I don’t care about Bronzor
Is good
jklioeToday at 11:39 AM
yea
XayahToday at 11:40 AM
Whereas Psychium is obviously for stuff like Lickilicky, which is less common than Bronzor and also more easily dealt with by teammates
DiagnosticToday at 11:41 AM
I mean once you have up TR, Bronzor is usually a non-factor if you have teammates that can just bypass it since you are already pressed for turns. I'd rather hard swap into a Camerupt / Marowak / Kecleon / etc Partner and preserve my turns for Beheyeem to abuse Analytic later on.
XayahToday at 11:41 AM
OTR is not on a TR team, at least not always
DiagnosticToday at 11:41 AM
Psychium Z = required dark type or Bronzor SI since you dent even the most realistic SpD neutrals and remove offensive checks that don't resist.
I use OTR on my TR.
Just because I don't like stacking too many suicide users.
XayahToday at 11:42 AM
If we only want to consider this set dor TR we shouldn’t have a Z-Move at all since there are better users of it on TR
jklioeToday at 11:42 AM
yeah, it's an option, although it can be standalone also
XayahToday at 11:42 AM
And yes I didn’ say you can’t run OTR on TR
I run it too
jklioeToday at 11:42 AM
mostly because the prospect of anti-offense is just nice in general
XayahToday at 11:43 AM
I said you can also run it outside of TR, which is where Z-moves should be considered
DiagnosticToday at 11:43 AM
LO is generally the best option for OTR since it does take on a "sweeping" role.
And that's understandable.
jklioeToday at 11:43 AM
and yeah, LO's placing isn't at all into question. it will still be the main item
FroastyToday at 11:50 AM
Psychium is more for phys def walls in general that aren't weak to sball
252+ SpA Analytic Beheeyem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 128-152 (40.2 - 47.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
XayahToday at 11:52 AM
you don't get the Analytic boost in TR
FroastyToday at 11:52 AM
It's unfortunate but you can also play with that to make sure BEM sets up TR right before it kills if you run a slightly faster BEM
You can if you choose to
XayahToday at 11:52 AM
because you're faster
well if you do you're slower so you'll get Toxiced and probably Psywaved and your sweep is basically over already, i addition to wasting 3 turns of TR
FroastyToday at 11:54 AM
That's fine. Zor doesn't really switch in on BEM consistently, so it's possible you will be able to re set TR right before falling to Toxic. It's not a bad tactic, just not worth putting on the analysis
XayahToday at 11:55 AM
so you're suggesting you want this to be for full TR teams only, which then means you can't put a Z-Move on one of your abusers or even Z-Memento Dusknoir
idt you can really run a Z-Move on TR, so you'd just be considering OTR as a standalone sweeper, which can then better run Ghostium to get past Bronzor
FroastyToday at 11:56 AM
OTR doesn't mind running psychium to better break Altaria and get to run psyshock for Komala
XayahToday at 11:57 AM
Psyshock is way less of an opportuity cost than Psychium is
FroastyToday at 11:58 AM
Psychium pairs with psyshock
That way phys def mons not weak to sball aren't a problem
XayahToday at 11:58 AM
you can run Psyshock anyway though
like LO Psyshock is perfectly valid
FroastyToday at 11:59 AM
Altaria will stall out your TR turns if you do
XayahToday at 12:00 PM
if it runs fully physdef it's still 2HKOed after rocks and if it switches into an Analytic boosted attack it also just dies
FroastyToday at 12:00 PM
252+ SpA Life Orb Beheeyem Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Altaria: 153-181 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Since you are under TR Alt can sit there and click roost and chip your HP away with your orb, psychium still gets the TR turns stalled out but threatens the OHKO right after
XayahToday at 12:02 PM
if you're under TR Alt can't switch in because it will just go down, meaning all it can do is come in on the turn it gets set up or after something went down, which isn't exactly good for the Alt user
FroastyToday at 12:02 PM
It doesn't really need to though. Zor can't switch in to BEM safely in general.
XayahToday at 12:02 PM
that + the fact people generally don't preserve Alt for BEM so you can more easily chip it + it's weak to Rock
except the difference with Zor is that BEM needs to go for a coverage move instead of a STAB move, which is a big opportunity cost if the prediction goes wrong
FroastyToday at 12:04 PM
Okay, but the thing to recognize is that zor doesn't necessarily switch in any better, and the TR turn itself can be an opportunity to switch in safely
durzaToday at 12:05 PM
why not slash psychium
its very valid
also analytic is still very useful js
since tr forces a lot of switches
XayahToday at 12:05 PM
no one is saying Analytic is not
durzaToday at 12:05 PM
hitting lo sball on the zor switch is heat
XayahToday at 12:05 PM
you just don't get the boost in TR
FroastyToday at 12:06 PM
Psychium has more general usage outside of just hitting Bronzor, like popping off to OHKO phys def Golem without sturdy up or getting the OHKO on Muk. Orb already does most of what Ghostium wants to do.
XayahToday at 12:07 PM
anyway Froasty, 1. Bronzor most certainly does switch in safer because predicting with a coverage move is a lot more annoying to pull off since you aren't doing much damage if you predict wrong
2. I mentioned the TR turn already but again, massive risk if you predict wrong because Alt is just gonna die
3. Recognize that a team with Alt as the BEM switch in is bad because lol no Psychic resist, same for Golem and Muk. Thus there will generally be another Psychic resist, 99% of the time one that Ghostium is beating
Orb also doesn't beat Bronzor in TR which is literally what Ghost Z wants to do
FroastyToday at 12:08 PM
I didn't say that Alt was a switch in generally, I said that Bronzor isn't any safer to switch in
durzaToday at 12:08 PM
im confused with the argument
XayahToday at 12:08 PM
or rather, it beats it, but doesn't get the 2HKO
which is objectively wrong Froasty
durzaToday at 12:08 PM
i dont think ghostium should be slashed if thats whats being questioned here
FroastyToday at 12:08 PM
No, it isn't objectively wrong
XayahToday at 12:08 PM
as I said, it's much easier to predict with your STAB move than with your coverage move
FroastyToday at 12:08 PM
And I already proved that triggering analytic can be done at will
By just changing your IVs
DiagnosticToday at 12:09 PM
Psychium + TR is almost purely for the ability to have an unstoppable TR and have a slight edge when spamming analytic boosted Psychic STAB. Other than that, LO is almost always better and Colbur takes advantage of Knock Off users and Pawniard, which is dangerous for TR if left unchecked. Ghostium is a fine option if you really dislike dealing with Bronzor sapping turns although all of TR can afford to take a Toxic / Psywave due to the offensive nature of the archetype.
XayahToday at 12:09 PM
that doesn't have to do with anything
I swear I've gotta go, what you're saying just makes no sense
FroastyToday at 12:09 PM
orb analytic 2hkos zor
And you can do it if you choose to do it
DiagnosticToday at 12:09 PM
Idk why this discussion is dragging out so much.
jklioeToday at 12:09 PM
what's decided is
LO 1st, Colbur 2nd
we're allowed to have a 3rd slash and any additional items with reasonable level of viability on that same set (and better than OO) can go to set details
durzaToday at 12:11 PM
on otr i think
lo / psychium / colbur
XayahToday at 12:11 PM
Psychium is not good
FroastyToday at 12:12 PM
Already proved what it can do though, whereas ghostium hits 1 mon
XayahToday at 12:12 PM
you've proved it beats Alt
durzaToday at 12:12 PM
psychium is good tho
FroastyToday at 12:12 PM
And Golem, and Muk
durzaToday at 12:12 PM
its just a powerful stab attack
thats really hard to switch into
XayahToday at 12:12 PM
BEM already beats Golem and Muk though
durzaToday at 12:12 PM
its just a good all around neutral nuke
DiagnosticToday at 12:13 PM
Psychium is good.
FroastyToday at 12:13 PM
Getting the OHKO is not as easy and at best you have to not run psyshock to do it
XayahToday at 12:13 PM
you know what, whatever, this discussion is triggering me, go and slash it or whatever
it's worthless but hey no one wants to explain anything it does other than 'it beats Alt and some mons BEM already beats'
but okay it's apparently better than beating your hardest counter
DiagnosticToday at 12:13 PM
If you need the dedicated speed control with an optional nuke, Psychium is the way to go.
If not, taking the sweeper role with LO or removing Pawniard and knock off users with Colbur is almost always better.
jklioeToday at 12:14 PM
there's merit in beating altaria tbf, some fellow partners like Camerupt and WishiWashi does appreciate that in TR-oriented builds
DiagnosticToday at 12:14 PM
Bronzor is not a huge issue for TR in general.
jklioeToday at 12:14 PM
but yes, I do value ghost z enough to at least put it in Set Details
DiagnosticToday at 12:14 PM
^
I agree. At worst, it should be in OO like other options.
FroastyToday at 12:14 PM
Why set details over OO?
You could reasonably put the IVs to outspeed zor outside of TR in set details at that point
XayahToday at 12:15 PM
Alt is not a problem for Wishiwashi @jklioe
it runs Ice Beam
also reason for not putting IVs to outspeed Bronzor there is because it literally just kills your sweeping attempt because you get Toxiced
jklioeToday at 12:16 PM
true. it's just that they're often running choice sets and so they want to be able to spam their stabs more than anything
DiagnosticToday at 12:16 PM
If it's specs, similar to camerupt, it's a 50/50 that prevents you from spamming STAB.
Jklioe with the snipe again ..
:GWfroggyKermitReee:
XayahToday at 12:17 PM
LO Wishiwashi is better though
DiagnosticToday at 12:17 PM
I use LO too ^
XayahToday at 12:17 PM
specifically because of being able to switch moves
FroastyToday at 12:17 PM
Ghostium doesn't OHKO
DiagnosticToday at 12:17 PM
It's so good to U-turn on last turn TR
FroastyToday at 12:17 PM
So you still get hit by toxic
XayahToday at 12:17 PM
no but it 2HKOes after minor chip so you don't also get Psywaved twice
FroastyToday at 12:18 PM
If you just do the IVs necessary you 2hko anyway with orb
FroastyToday at 12:33 PM
So IVs or ghostium?
jklioeToday at 12:34 PM
the IVs should be put in anyway
FroastyToday at 12:35 PM
Well, the IVs render ghostium redundant
jklioeToday at 12:36 PM
then so be it. Since LO is the primary item, then it's more important to optimize for that
Ghostium in OO ig
XayahToday at 12:38 PM
IVs don't render Ghostium irrelevant since Ghostium does the job more effectively at higher opportunity cost
don't be dishonest
FroastyToday at 12:41 PM
I'm not being dishonest at all
Zor could choose to rest and render ghostium irrelevant
XayahToday at 12:42 PM
has nothing to do with your claim of the IVs rendering Ghostium irrelevant and is also false because after it Rests you still 3HKO
FroastyToday at 12:42 PM
Which is a 4hko and takes all of your TR turns at best. Orb guarantees a minimum of 3hko
XayahToday at 12:43 PM
252+ SpA Beheeyem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 100-118 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO
again, don't lie
FroastyToday at 12:43 PM
I didn't lie
XayahToday at 12:43 PM
Which is a 4hko
77.9% chance to 3HKO
FroastyToday at 12:44 PM
Yes, that isn't a lie, because if it rests on the z then that's 4 hits
XayahToday at 12:44 PM
that literally doesn't matter though
so you didn't lie but bring up somethig irrelevant
you know what, I'm done
I'm just gonna block you and not listen to your garbage anymore
durzaToday at 12:44 PM
.
FroastyToday at 12:44 PM
?
Why are you getting so aggressive over this?
XayahToday at 12:44 PM
I'm not a leader, so I don't have to act like I talking to you isn't the first thing there is
FroastyToday at 12:45 PM
I fail to see what I did wrong here.
XayahToday at 12:46 PM
you're straight up stupid, bringing up horrible arguments constantly and refusing to see the other side and you pull this crap every single time we have a discussion
you're being dishonest to everyone just to prove a point and I'm sick of it
FroastyToday at 12:46 PM
I'm providing calcs?
XayahToday at 12:46 PM
no, I'm providing calcs
and this is the last I'll say on the matter
FroastyToday at 12:47 PM
And I am too. Your ceiling for ghostium is 2 hits and your floor is 4. Your ceiling for orb is 2 hits and your floor is 3.
XayahToday at 12:47 PM
I'm not discussing with you anymore since you're not smart enough to look at the other side anyway
(your ceiling is actually 5 since you can't 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Beheeyem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 130-153 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
so if it Rests on the second hit it's 5. if you're faster, so you move after in TR, your entire sweep gets stopped because you take too much damage)
it's really not that much to ask to not lie
FroastyToday at 12:48 PM
You're running the IVs to be faster than it outside of TR, meaning you get the analytic boost under TR
I am not lying?
DiagnosticToday at 12:49 PM
Let's drop this. Ghostium is at least going OO. It serves a purpose and we have the calcs to prove the function in removing Bronzor and other threars that it's meant to hit.
The issue is not about how it compares to the staple items because we know that it does not outclass them. All of these options listed above are relevant OO options.
durzaToday at 12:49 PM

DiagnosticToday at 12:49 PM
Please stop the argument.