>I never said that it was "agaisnt their will". This is comparable to a child taking example of their parent but whatever this wouldn't change the fact that it been EXPLICITLY stated that Chara was watching for your guidance.

Only if we assume that Chara was a blank slate upon waking up and had to be taught morality (or in this case immortality) like a child. All Chara says is that they were confused about why they were awakened from death, only to come to the conclusion that it was for the purposes of attaining power. There is no indication that Chara was *taught* to desire power by the player; they simply believe this to be the reason they were brought back. The fact that they went along with you at all sure screams “evil” to me, I dunno about you.

>Neither does Flowey.

Sure, if just you completely ignore the context that Flowey is a very special case, being the result of an experiment to study the effects of Determination on an inanimate object.

>It been never stated that ALL human souls persist and monsters were unfamiliar with the monster- human souls fusion.

This is another case of assuming the story gave us inaccurate information, despite said information never being challenged or called into question. And besides, if not all human souls persist, then it sure is lucky that all five humans that fell Underground between Chara and Frisk were able to stick around after being killed.

>The fact that Chara resides in Frisk's body while humans can't absorb human souls prove that their soul was destroyed.

We’re only told that Chara was “awakened” due to your human soul and determination. It doesn’t appear to be the same circumstance as Asriel absorbing Chara’s soul anyhow because you, the player, still have primary control over Frisk.

>Plus Chara's soul was combined to Asriel' soul so it's logical to assume that it had the same fate.

But that’s only an assumption, we know that Asriel absorbed Chara’s soul but that doesn’t mean they became a singular consciousness. Asriel even tells us about how control was split between them and how Chara wanted to fight back against the humans but he resisted.

>Plus if Chara's soul persisted, monsters would use it to destroy the barrier.

Asgore apparently needed those special containers in order to collect souls. It’s not like Chara’s would just be buzzing around him like a fly, especially when Chara reveals themselves that they were essentially dormant before being awakened by the player.

>Chara always has always had their full awareness. Nothing in the game states that high LV increases one awareness or anything. They just manifests themselves more in genocide run, that doens't mean they only gain their awareness in this run.

I agree, that was me trying to be charitable to your position.

>And I didn't say that they were necessarily good, just that they aren't bad just for the sake of being bad. The game is about how people make awful mistakes for good cause and i assume that the same applies to Chara, it's that simple.

Chara could absolutely have an understandable reason for being the way they are, not that we would actually know what it was. See, I wouldn’t actually make the argument that Chara is definitively evil *just because*, since that isn’t something we have any way of knowing. All I’m arguing is that Chara is evil, beyond that who knows.

>Euh....Asriel's consiosness also remained as Flowey is Asriel's consiosness...He has all of his memories as Asriel after all and if Asriel's consiosness was gone, how do you explain that he turns into Asriel in pacifist end ?

Again, that is a very, *very* special circumstance. Flowey is only conscious because Asriel’s dust was on the golden flowers, one of which Alphys injected Determination into. Asriel’s consciousness didn’t persist, it was *resurrected.*

And even then, it’s not until he absorbs the power of nearly every monster in the entire Underground that he’s able to become *himself* again. He stresses that he isn’t truly himself when he’s Flowey, due to his lack of a soul.

>Which is pretty ironical because your side often claim that Asriel misread Chara's reaction when he said that he was supposed to laugh it off like Chara did, confirming that it wasn't really a bad laugh. So you claim that we should take the game at face value ONLY when it benefit you ?

W-what...?! In what context is it not horrible to “laugh off” your father being deathly ill, solely because of you?

>Lol i never did it and i rarely see any members of CDS doing it. In fact, most of the people who do are COS.

That’s whataboutism. If I notice someone on my “””””side””””” spreading inaccurate information then I’ll try and correct them. I know that I don’t need to stretch information or grasp at straws to make my case.

>Because they claim that Chara only manipulated monsters to think that they are good despite the fact that there's no evidences for this.

Maybe not, I don’t think that’s one of those things we know either way. Them manipulating Asriel definitely has evidence though, we hear for ourselves in the fourth tape that Asriel wasn’t on board with Chara’s plan to *commit suicide*, tearing up in the process, but was persuaded into going along with it anyway. Even on their deathbed in Tape 5, they call Asriel’s trust in them into question when he repeats that he doesn’t like this plan. Then when we go from Asriel speaking so highly of Chara at the end of the boss fight to him admitting that they weren’t so great after all, long after calming down, it is obvious that at the *very least*, Chara was able to get Asriel to act against his better judgement on more than one occasion.

>That Chara is lying when they accuse us for "pushing the world to it's destruction".

Yeah, that’s silly and anyone who says that is mistaken. By the nature of Undertale being a metagame, the player is *obviously* responsible for the genocide route. It’s simply the claim that the player is responsible for Chara being *evil* that I find absurd.

>That Chara lied to Asriel regarding their plan etc... while there's no evidences for any of these claims.

Right, the tapes make it clear that Asriel is aware of the plan, but he never liked it and was pressured into going along with it. It was only once faced with having to harm humans that were simply scared and confused that he made the choice himself to do the opposite of what Chara wanted.

>So the "wasn't really the greatest person" can't apply to someone who fights a little kid with the inch of their life at least three times to capture them against their will to selfishly join the royal guard?

To your typical monster, Frisk isn’t a little kid, they’re a *human*. And given that Frisk is the first to fall down in “a long time”, it seems unlikely that most monsters are even truly familiar with humans, beyond the fact that they are at war with them and that they are responsible for their imprisonment underground. It is only after getting to interact with Frisk that they realize they have no desire to fight them after all, and thus can be spared.

Now take Papyrus, who has longed since childhood to join the Royal Guard, which he’s undoubtedly grown up believing is a force for good. And yet, he is unable to do what is expected of a Royal Guardsman and actually *kill* a human. Whereas most monsters will go right ahead and kill you, Papyrus will always go out of his way to stop himself and simply capture you instead. It’s a simple conflict of interests- he wants to do what is expected of him to become a Royal Guardsman but also likes Frisk too much to actually want to kill them.

>And it can't also apply to someone who literally murdered 6 children and wanted to destroy humanity?

Sure, if we pretend that he actually *did* want to destroy humanity, and didn’t simply make a bad decision in a fit of grief over the brutal death of his children, then had to stand by his word because it was the only thing keeping his subjects from losing hope, and had a duty as their king to put them first.

>It can't apply to someone who wanted revenge on humanity and tries to kill a human kid several times throughout the game?

See the Papyrus explanation.

>It can't apply to someone who manipulates everyone including you and who hide what she did with the amalgamates and all of this to look better?

While it was definitely wrong of Alphys to lie, she doesn’t actually mean to put Frisk in harm’s way. She tries her best to engineer situations that present the *appearance* of danger while still wanting to keep Frisk safe. Not to say that this isn’t still a shameful thing to do, but she is at the very least visibly guilty should Frisk *actually* get hurt in any way.

As for the Amalgamates, she does leave several families in the dark regarding their deceased loved ones for a while, but it also doesn’t appear that *much* time has passed since their creation, due to her second-to-last journal entry being about Asgore informing her that the Amalgamates’ families want answers. It seems very unlikely that after this neither Asgore nor the families wouldn’t shortly start pushing harder for answers anr learned the truth. Thus leading me to believe that it hasn’t been long at all since Alphys wrote those lab entries (though definitely far longer from Flowey’s perspective, due to his extensive resets). In any case, this was of course still shameful of her, but she at least is able to face reality in the end and set things right.

>That it can't apply to Flowey?

Flowey, the soulless husk unable to feel empathy or compassion? Flowey who attempts suicide long before he ever thinks of trying to hurt anyone? Flowey who at first goes out of his way to help everyone he meets, only to be driven mad by his boredom and inability to comprehend true love and kindness? Flowey who does indeed kill innocent people, but with full awareness that he can simply turn the clock back and undo all of it afterwards, which he obviously *does?*

Of course Flowey isn’t the greatest person, but he’s barely a *person* to begin with, due to his physical lack of the thing that makes a human *or* monster what they truly are. Kinda hard to be a great or selfless person when it’s something your mind truly cannot comprehend.

>Are you really sure that "weren't really the greatest person" ONLY applies to Chara while so far everything we know about their mistakes is that they hated humanity, wanted to kill 6 humans to free the monsters and the villagers who attacked them ? What makes them worse than any other character?.

This is entire segment has been a massive No-True-Scotsman fallacy, but I’ve gone ahead and humored it anyway. Yes, every main character in Undertale is flawed and does morally questionable things as a result of said flaws, while still being good people at the core. Chara is a different story. If Chara did indeed have any relevant redeeming qualities, the game made no effort to show us that, clearly not treating that as important information. Chara is hardly even a character; you’re led to assume that they are you at first, but their presence in the game is pretty much saved for how they act as a sinister reflection of the player and its quest for power in the Genocide route (“Every time a number increases, that feeling... That's me. ‘Chara.’”).

Despite how Chara is initially presented to the player through the Neutral Route story and Pacifist boss fight, the game makes sure to follow that up by having Asriel admit *after* the wonderful things he said about Chara before that in truth, they were not that great after all. Asriel is not talking about Papyrus, he is not talking about Asgore, or Undyne, or Alphys. He is talking about Chara, the person that he knew better than anyone else. If you choose to take the phrase “wasn’t the greatest person” at its absolute broadest so that it can apply to *anyone*, then that makes Asriel’s statement worthless because at that point, saying that a person isn’t a great is basically the same as saying that a person needs oxygen to breathe. It is *very clear* that this is meant to be a serious mark against Chara’s morality, especially when he follows this up with “While, Frisk... You're the type of friend I wish I *always* had. So maybe I was kind of projecting a little bit.” The game never attempts to counter of challenge what Asriel says here, nor does the Genocide Route, which obviously just makes Chara look worse.

>What makes them worse than any other character?.

This truly baffles me. What do you think makes a serial killer worse than a petty burglar? They’re both *not great* people, so they must be the same, right?