AAC3 Tad Finals Judgement

####Guy Vs Nerf:

##Nerf 1:

* Team Nerf is set up to exploit Team Guy's weaknesses, and imposes ability checks Team Guy isn't prepared to handle.

* Caerula's AOE spatial awareness hard counter's MM's illusions & teleporting.

* Samus's thermal vision also explicitly counters the illusions.

* MM has no durability and dies to all of Team Nerf's offense.

* Team Nerf are fast. Mirror master is slow---kicked by civilian woman.

* Lyra loses her powers if she gets mad to the point she can't even move her limbs. Caerula explicitly uses mind reading to provoke opponents. Lyra isn't hard to anger.

* Samus can reduce Lyra's durability with the ice beam before shattering her. Lyra has no resistance to ice esoterics & facetanks.

* Lyra gets consistently hurt by low enough impacts (warping a car) and everything else is unreliable scaling. Team Nerf can put her down.

* Lyra subway feat is throwing, not lifting.

I don't really think this is that important a distinction. If she was able to shove/throw a subway car through that much concrete it's probably an actionable attack she could replicate by like, swinging one like a bat.

* Lyra doesn't hit living targets that hard based on collateral. When she does hit hard enough to kill, it's an accident and she's horrified.

##Guy 1:

* Team Nerf lack mobility or scouting whereas Team Guy has it in spades via mirror dimension travel & Lyra's hulk jumps.

* Mirror Master's mirror clones & mirror travel are fast & actionable enough to keep up with speedsters hitting him.

* It is extremely in character for Lyra to play keep away and win via attrition & can throw massive objects from range.

This seems more like she's swinging the airship as a melee weapon than throwing it.

* Samus needs to actively turn on her HUD to see through the mirror tricks. Caerula's ambush detection is limited to immediately behind herself. Caerula's senses are also unclear if they need to be activated or are passive, and the distance isn't large.

* Lyra subway feat is stronger than either of Team Nerf are durable. Caerula is fragile. Samus gets winded by attack that busts less concrete.

* Lyra's dura scales to She-Hulk. Mt. Everest feat. Lyra herself no-sells tank shell, won't be pierced by Caerula.

* Lyra is a Hulk. Hulks are universally immune/resistant to freezing & deep space & it would be strange if Lyra was different. Samus doesn't use the ice beam often anyway.

* Caerula's speed has no indication of when she reacts. No indication of how fast Alita is moving in the scaling feat.

* Lyra Daken scaling for speed.

* Ricochet bullets slow. Samus being "more agile" than Joey doesn't necessarily mean reactions just movement. 13 space pirates feat has Samus tanking the bullets rather than shooting faster than they can fire.

* Caerula's mind reading is metaphorical---it's based on her 700 years of combat experience letting her guess opponent's backgrounds. In the Alita fight it's because she's literally fought and killed Alita before but doesn't know it's her until she tells Cae.

* Jen's insults are personally targeted to known details of Lyra's life---being Bruce's daughter. Caerula doesn't know that.

* Lyra's trance = Caerula's trance.

* If Lyra was vulnerable to ice attacks she would know this and avoid it.

Why would she know this if she'd never encountered one before? Actually I guess if she doesn't know, she'd dodge to be safe so nevermind.

* Lyra in character avoids projectiles. Context of others are bodyblocking projectiles for her friends or getting ambushed or double tapped while already downed.

* MM's glass gun is a oneshot esoteric. The opponents are distracted by Lyra & MM's illusions making it easier to land the gun.

* Caerula fell for Alita's illusion

I don't think this is a comparable illusion. Nerf's gone over this in prev rounds and I'm sure he'll do it again, but this was a result of Alita consciously trying to dodge but her body freezing up, so her thoughts appeared to show she was dodging when she wasn't.

* Samus's entire body is reflective armour. MM Can pop out of her at any moment.

##Nerf 2:

* Mirror Master doesn't have an argued speed or durability.

* Mirror Master isn't stealthy & Caerula/Samus can see through the illusions.

* Caerula has AOE awareness processing dozens of bullets in the air and sensing things at the molecular level. She can see through the glass decoys.

* Guy has consistently argued MM dropping off Lyra into melee instead of keeping distance. Even if Lyra threw stuff from distance Caerula would detect it and dodge.

* Caerula, anticipating ambush by invisible assassins while having a civil conversation. Will be even more on guard given she's in a deathmatch.

* The soldiers Cae sensed have such good stealth tech Alita's sensors can't see through them.

* Gunfire fights dumb and still beat MM using a telegraphed chandelier drop.

* Green Arrow was able to keep MM from following him by blowing out the reflective windows of a car. If the car chassis wasn't reflective enough for MM to use, Samus's armour isn't. Samus's armour also isn't metal but weird biotech.

* Even if MM could ambush from Samus's armour he'd need to step out of it far enough to turn around and get a shot at her.

* MM's mirrors don't work for detection like Guy claims---He can find Flash "Because ma predecessor programmed these mirrors t'show him where [Flash is.] T'find someone [else] in all these images would take me a bloody lifetime."

* To make matters worse, Flash broke all the mirrors MM used to spy out of---"He'd found---and told Emilia about---the mirror-realm before she ditched him. That's why she was so afraid of being located through it. Now that we've totalled it, I guess she can finally put those fears to rest."

* Other tracking feats are when he's had the chance to plant a mirror ahead of time.

* MM is unstealthy. Announces himself whenever he goes through a portal.

* Caerula's mind reading doesn't go for deep-dive memories but neither does Cable's. Caerula's mindreading lets her predict 100s of moves in advance, gives her perfect locational awareness, and ability to manipulate opponents in fights.

* Cae's mind reading and AOE senses are both an offshoot of the same ability.

* Caerula was able to sense Alita coming even when Alita put a barrier between them. She doesn't need direct eye contact with opponent's brain for the power to work.

* Explanation of Alita dissociating from her body and throwing Cae off.

*  Visual technological illusions like what MM uses do not fool Caerula.

* Caerula knowing what martial art Alita uses =/= knowing her personality enough to push her buttons. Death Gate works based on opponent's mental state using extrasensory abilities. Can manipulate opponents long term from very start of fight.

* Tier Deadpool doesn't know Lyra's backstory any better than Caerula does.

* If Lyra switches on the trance it's even easier for Caerula to predict her.

* Lyra is not a Hulk, she is a failed experiment to make a Hulk. If basic Hulk truisms like "stronger when angrier" are not true for her we can't assume more obscure ones like "resistant to cold" are.

* Lyra never gets hit with comparable collateral damage to the Mt. Rushmore feat. She-Hulk is trying to deescalate and is holding back.

* Lyra gets KO'd by small wall crater.

* Even if we assumed esoteric resistances were same as other Hulks, cold works on Bruce. Space isn't cold.

* Samus has no problem using & tagging peer opponents w/ the ice beam and Lyra is slower. She can also just hold down a continuous beam. Jumping makes Lyra a sitting duck as she's falling.

* In the tank dodge feat, Boudicca tells Lyra the guns are threatening to her after she gets shot and then she starts dodging. Isn't her instinct to immediately start by dodging.

* Lyra started the fights in which Guy says she got ambushed and was aware of the opponents.

* Alita has supersonic striking. Caerula dodges Alita using the same sonic boom punch drawn the same way.

* Samus shoots two ricocheted bullets out of the air. Taking two actions w/in timeframe of 2/3rd speed bullet is 4/3rds as good as reacting to one bullet.

* Samus is consistently faster than Joey and has better matchups vs fast opponents than he does.

* Lyra's scaling to Daken is when she's using Autotrance to buff her reflexes. She doesn't use it in any other fight and needs to be calm to use it.

* "Daken is very obviously not bullet timing in the same run Guy argues"

This one's broken, sorry. But I agree the claimed daken bullet feat is unclear.

* Team Nerf can jump good too and Lyra can't keep it up forever---was outrun by a group of random men after 8 days.

* Samus's helmet is polarised and she was fine inside a sun.

##Guy 2:

* Guy has argued Lyra playing keep away earlier in the tourney.

* Team Nerf's means of detecting MM are not good enough. Cable's scanning is passive and automatic over a range of 50 miles. Caerula's is not passive, and has a much shorter range.

* Ambush scan doesn't show Cae reading the soldiers' brainwaves. Subconscious movements not intentional ones. Whenever Caerula predicts Alita she starts off by looking at her.

* Team Guy are in tier against Cable not just because of TP, but because of his shields negating the glass gun. Team Nerf have nothing comparable.

* Examples of MM tracking people since the story where Flash smashed his mirrors. Pinpoints within a 70 mile area.

* The antifeat of MM not finding the safe zone on the prison planet is on an undeveloped planet w/out many mirrors.

* Male, being a heavily urbanised arena, has reflective surfaces everywhere.

* Earpiece feat

* Throwing a train implies equivalently powerful muscles you would use for punching.

* Huge Tiger Shark crater. Punches through Helicarrier making crater in the street as she lands.

I buy Lyra is just strong yeah.

* Lyra & Hulk have low collateral fighting each other because it's a heavily populated city and they aren't mass murderers. Train feat is from same She-Hulk fight.

* Daken fights X-23 frequently and she's a bullet timer.

* Lyra wins fight vs Ares who scales to Hermes & Sentry

* Lyra scales to Bullseye

* Alita mach cone is drawn differently---on her punch vs full body.

* Lyra uses trance on the reg.

* Caerula has no context for Lyra so she wouldn't be able to say anything truly impactful. Also Caerula only uses Death Gate in one fight vs Alita.

* It seems obvious Lyra should have cold resistance.

It might be a good idea to argue Lyra's ability to flex out of encasing ice instead of just asserting this.

* Mirror Master messing around for the Animal Man fight is because he doesn't want to kill Buddy. Rogues showing off is in different context to how MM is motivated here---he only gets paid if he wins. In contexts where he needs to pop out and kill he just does so straightforwardly.

* Samus views the world entirely through a reflective surface. Mirror master can block her vision. The infrared seems like she has to hold down a button on the helmet to activate it.

##Nerf 3:

* Team Guy can't effect any wincons beyond a range Team Nerf can counter.

* Several questions about Team Guy's range---how far & accurately can Lyra throw things? Will she attempt this?

* Reiterating Samus's range + accuracy

* Caerula has a gun. Mirror Master's gun only has demonstrated 5m range. Equaled by the gun.

* Guy has repeatedly argued Lyra gets dropped into a melee. He's only argued throwing stuff as secondary wincon in situations where Team Guy can't close like Grue's darkness cloud.

* Cable has to be able to read MM's mind while he's in the mirror dimension or he can't use telepathy to counter him. If he can do this, Caerula can do this.

* Cable's shields are not passive and he had to stop reading minds to use them.

* Glass gun has no argued speed.

* MM is still not stealthy. The motivation stip isn't all that different from circumstances where he's getting paid and still chooses to act brashly.

*  MM tracking people with mirrors has context---they stole one of his special mirrors, coordinates to hone in on (Lat/Long can be various degrees of precision), and finding the Flash who the original MM programmed the mirrors to track.

* Failing to find the safe zone on the prison planet is still an antifeat because it's got a big ass lake full of reflective water and he had his mirror dimension gun on him at the time.

* Caerula sensing an ambush is still sensing an ambush no matter what ability she's drawing on to do it. Even if she was especially on guard she'll be on guard in a deathmatch.

* MM targeting Samus first is not guaranteed when they both have reflective objects he could try to use.

* There is nothing in the mirror clone scans that say mirror master was ever really there and hadn't prepped decoys in advance. Both Team Nerf have counters to the decoys and the mirror clone physicals can't hinder them.

* Lyra antifeats---hurt by thrown chairs, tigers, stuff way weaker than Team Nerf's damage output.

* If there isn't collateral in the She-Hulk fight that means She-Hulk was holding back, not punching as hard as during the Rushmore feat.

* Lyra affected by cold---"I don't think I'm ever going to be warm again."

* Lyra gets tagged by glue guns.

* Characters who react to Samus's blasts get tagged by her ice beam.

It seems more like Zegan did block the ice beam with his shield arm, the ice just crusted around it. The Knight scaling is real though.

* Suite of examples of Lyra being easy to anger.

* Caerula always uses Death Gate.

* More Alita scaling evidence

* Hermes scaling is bad. Nailgun.

Yeah.

* Sentry tears Areas apart so the scaling doesn't work anyway.

* Tagging Bullseye while he's airborne and unable to dodge is not speed scaling. Bullseye's feat is prediction anyway.

* Daken fighting X-23 isn't clean speed scaling because Daken uses pheromones to slow opponents.

* Split strength is real in Marvel.

##Guy 3:


* Lyra IC fights by disengaging.

* Guy talking about Lyra being in melee is in the context of an "If" and discussing her likelihood of victory if this occurs.

* Male is within a single lat/long so Mirror Master can track quickly.

* Train feat is the first thing Lyra does in that run. No collateral in populated areas is common in Marvel even between super strong / enraged characters.

* Hawkeye still has instances of superhuman striking, he is not the rosetta stone of all marvel characters, and Lyra has striking comparable to the train feat collateral anyway.

* Lyra wouldn't hold back in a tournament setting.

* Nerf is inconsistent in how he characterises speed scaling to a jumping character---Ares is slower than Sentry because he gets hit while midair, but Bullseye/Daken getting hit midair just means they couldn't dodge.

* Daken vs X-23 doesn't have pheremone clouds like the spider-fight.

* MM invalidates Samus by blinding her and could do the same to Caerula. Easier to land glass gun hits because both are busy with Lyra.

* Green Arrow fight---MM was specifically hired to stall so he stalled.

####Results:

**Things I Bought:**

* Lyra is just strong! She is the strongest person here in all categories.

* Lyra is "Marvel Fast" by which I mean she is capable of tagging fast moving characters disproportionately to her ability to avoid attacks. The Hermes scaling is bad. The Daken -> X-23 scaling is better.

* Even purely based on the objective collateral we see in the She-Hulk fight Lyra is the most durable person here.

* Lyra uses the Autotrance.

* Mirror Master messing around is mostly in a different context and he'll probably fight at least semi-seriously.

* Mirror Master's mirror decoys are actionable in combat to avoid fast attacks at least some of the time, but he does also just get caught out sometimes.

* Mirror Master can probably block Samus's vision and emerge out of her visor even if he couldn't pop out of her armour itself.

* Caerula is the fastest person here.

* Caerula's senses work as outlined. She is unlikely to be ambushed.

* Caerula's sword is meaningfully threatening to both of Team Guy. A tank shell isn't quite comparable to the clean pillar cut IMO.

* Samus and her projectiles are appreciably fast except the bombs and missiles. We have no reason to believe the ice beam is meaningfully slower than her blaster and might actually be faster based on Knight fight.

* Both Samus and Caerula can see through MM's illusions.

**Things I Didn't Buy:**

* Lyra isn't immune to cold man she got snowed on and went "ugh ill never be warm again" and had to huddle in a hot bath for the rest of the day.

* Lyra isn't that hard to provoke. Caerula could do it and does so in character. Given the She-Hulk scan has her get pissed off even while initiating trance, I'm not sure how much autotrance helps here.

* Lyra does seem to leverage disengaging Hulk jumps in fights but does not play keep away by throwing objects.

* I don't think we can directly scale to the Rushmore punch when She-Hulk isn't doing that much damage in their fight and clearly doesn't want to hurt Lyra as much as she does Rulk.

* Mirror Master's tracking is significantly worse than Guy presents it, and the latitude/longitude probably had specifying decimals making it a smaller area than 70 miles. Failing to find the ginormous reflective lake on the prison planet, plus the statement about how he has to manually trudge through the mirror dimension to look through all the mirrors kind of sinks it. I still ultimately believe this is good scouting, but it's reduced from an across the map tracking tool to a a local panopticon.

* Mirror Master isn't stealthy, even when he's trying to kill people

* Mirror Master only uses his gun at close range.

* Lyra doesn't just blindly facetank. She'll try to dodge the beams from Samus.

* I buy that Samus is agile and jumps good enough to keep up with Lyra because we can see it with our eyes. But Cae is weirder. Her jump feat is on a low gravity space station, and I'm still not sure how Caerula got onto that giant arch. I don't think we can necessarily say she jumped there. She could've used an elevator and then climbed up rest of the way.

* The Lyra monkeys are super monkeys.

**Conclusion:**

The context provided significantly harms Mirror Master's operative ability to track opponents. This is sort of a major blow to Team Guy's articulated strategy.

While he can still definitely use the mirrors to get around quickly and see large areas of the map at once, it's not going to allow him to immediately pinpoint Caerula and Samus, and that means Caerula has time to detect him and not be taken off guard by his schtick.

Caerula's constant anti-ambush senses are a further knock to his effectiveness, and if he tries to pop out and glass them, I think more often than not, he loses an arm.

Guy argues his threat level escalates once Team Nerf are stuck in a brawl with Lyra and distracted, but considering both of them have hard counters to his illusions and Caerula can track individual bullets and air molecules, I don't think they'll ever be overwhelmed enough they don't have an answer to him.

His frailty basically guarantees that if he tries to use a glass decoy to escape, it gets seen through and he's getting ganked, so he has limited ways of actually engaging safely in this fight beyond maybe blinding Samus's visor. Nerf establishes a certain amount of doubt by pressing how weird the biotech suit is that she might have answers to that. She could also just take the helmet off lol.

Lyra is a very solid brick. Samus has a losing matchup against her where pretty much only the ice beam or a lucky full charged blast stands a chance, and seeing how she swings around huge stone pillars and pushes subway cars through concrete, she might even be able to flex free of encasing ice (assuming she survived the tissue damage from being frozen solid.)

However, Caerula's fighting style is explicitly delineated as being based on provocation, so Lyra's effectiveness is significantly hampered by the fact she'll be constantly fighting to retain trance while her physicals fluctuate whenever Caerula lands a barbed comment. I believe Cae's sword is sharper than a tank shell is based on the pillar feat, so she can't just facetank Caerula even if she keeps her cool.

Overall I think this match comes down to Mirror Master losing utility both from context and due to counters from Nerf's team, leaving Lyra without the support she needs to thrive in the 2v1.

**Nerf Wins.**

Good debate, and thank you both so much for participating in my tourney. I really enjoyed this and I hope to run another of these soon enough.