Conversation with Marty

JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:21 PM
Hey, Marty. Shaper gave me your name
Marty - Today at 6:21 PM
Why?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:21 PM
Shaper#7092.
I have been banned from ask philosophy
Marty - Today at 6:21 PM
Yeah, I know him.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:22 PM
The ban appears to be outrageous.
Marty - Today at 6:22 PM
I don't know who banned you, or why.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:22 PM
It was somebody in the graduate category
I may be able to recall his name
This occurred in #casual
Marty - Today at 6:22 PM
Are you that neuroscience guy?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:23 PM
Can you elaborate?
(I may be)
Marty - Today at 6:23 PM
Were you the person who attempted to reduce things down to neuroscience?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:23 PM
Somebody might characterize my conversation that way. I would say it was more about symbols, ANNs, and yeah, some neuroscience
This was last night
The person was, apparently, legitimately trolling me
While I was doing serious philosophy (from my perspective)
And so I informed him that I put him on block
Marty - Today at 6:24 PM
So, like,
Do you think the mind is reducible to neuroscience?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:25 PM
Depending on how we define neuroscience... yes.
Marty - Today at 6:25 PM
Oh, you are that guy, then.
Yeah, I heard you were saying some egregious things.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:25 PM
Slightly expanded I would say, The entire conscious experience is a result of things occurring in the mind (and possibly other parts of the body)
Marty - Today at 6:26 PM
You mean brain?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:26 PM
Brain is probably more precise here, yes
Marty - Today at 6:26 PM
Yeah.
So elminiative materalism.
Right, well, if you're unfamilair with philosophy that sort of reductionism is obviously unwarranted.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:26 PM
Well, I don't think I would self-label with that term, but that school may be close to what I was arguing for
I don't think that term entirely captures what I was doing
Marty - Today at 6:27 PM
So, like,
If you were a doctor.
And someone who had no experience in being a doctor,
Asks you to operate on a patient, or wants to give you advice.
Would you take it?
And let him?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:27 PM
For operating, I think that would very likely be a bad decision
Marty - Today at 6:28 PM
Why?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:28 PM
For advice, it would probably be worse than a trained doctor, but it won't be in all cases
In some cases, a non-doctor may be able to give some useful advice
Marty - Today at 6:28 PM
Sure.
In some cases, if they have experience in the subject.
But the problem is, you didn't seem to really read philosophy.
So, you're like that guy walking in telling a doctor what to do with no experience.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:29 PM
Who is the doctor in this scenario?
Marty - Today at 6:29 PM
Us.
The people you talked to.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:30 PM
Well, do mean 'all of the people who have visited or were on the server at the time I was talking to', or 'The specific people you typed at least one post to'?
Marty - Today at 6:30 PM
Like the graduates, the autodidacts, the undergraduates.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:30 PM
talking to -> talking
Marty - Today at 6:30 PM
Who, ya know, study the subject. They have a love of wisdom.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:30 PM
So, "graduates", "autodidacts", and "undergraduates" would include people I didn't type any posts to
Is that your meaning?
Marty - Today at 6:31 PM
From what I heard,
You replied to Mesa, Iuno...?
Is this wrong?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:31 PM
I think Iuno is the person who banned me
Marty - Today at 6:31 PM
He did.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:31 PM
As they were in my block list
Marty - Today at 6:31 PM
Yeah, so.
You don't block moderators.
That seems pretty obvious.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:31 PM
I talked to Mesa, Iuno, and perhaps two or three others
Why don't you block moderators?
Marty - Today at 6:32 PM
Because moderators who, warn and enforce rules, can't be ignored.
Particularly, it seems incredibly arrogant to just dismiss someone who's trying to teach you sometihng if you aren't an adept in the subject.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:32 PM
Is being an element of type moderator an essential quality, or a behavioral one?
So, is one designated with moderator status always a moderator, no matter their behavior?
Or, can they be a moderator in some posts, but not in others
Marty - Today at 6:32 PM
Jayson.
Do you know how many of these conversations I have?
Let me tell you.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:33 PM
I do not
Marty - Today at 6:33 PM
I've spent three hours once.
Them aruging with me why their ban is unfair.
It didn't really convince me.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:33 PM
What would you estimate is the number of people you've argued with over their ban?
Marty - Today at 6:33 PM
I have a lot of expectations for people in the chatroom. Particularly humility, grace, and epsitemic humility.
We could argue what those consitute.
But you know that'd take forever.
Not something I want to do.
I'd say it happens at least once a month.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:34 PM
What percentage of those conversations resulted in you undoing their ban?
Marty - Today at 6:34 PM
It depends. If they just apologized, and promised to reserve epistemic humility when in the chatroom they've been unbanned 100% of the time.
Those that argued their right, and whatever, about 0-10%?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:35 PM
Okay
Did you have a chance to see the conversation, either live or afterwards?
Marty - Today at 6:35 PM
No, I'm sorry.
I trust my moderators' judgement.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:36 PM
Have you had a chance to talk with Iuno about the situation?
Marty - Today at 6:36 PM
A little bit. Mostly Mesa.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:36 PM
Okay. Mesa seemed to be getting frustrated with me
Marty - Today at 6:36 PM
Yes.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:36 PM
I think you highlighted three good values above: humility, grace, and epistemic humility
Marty - Today at 6:37 PM
Well, ignoring someone and avoiding their advice on philosophical issues isn't going to get you anywhere.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:37 PM
Just so we're clear, I only ignored Iuno
Marty - Today at 6:37 PM
Well, sufficent imho.
I obviously respect iunno's judgement.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:37 PM
That seems to be true
Marty - Today at 6:38 PM
Else he wouldn't be a moderator, ya know?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:38 PM
I am not ready to say "I am sorry". I would like to give a brief synopsis of my ignore decision.
Are you open to hearing that
Well, if you have a good vetting process for selecting moderators, then it makes sense to trust them to some degree
I don't have any knowledge about the vetting process
My judgment at this time, with the knowledge I have is that he acted pretty unreasonably
And that makes me infer he is used to getting away with that behavior
Causing me to have doubts about the vetting process
Marty - Today at 6:39 PM
I'm not going to ignore someone whom feels they've been addressed unfairly. Just know that I rarely, if ever, unban people who don't admit their wrong and also have the positions you take. (Due to past experience.)
But go for it.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:39 PM
Okay
Marty - Today at 6:40 PM
I'll be right back. So try to make it long.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:41 PM
I would describe your description of your understanding of the event and your general philosophy of reacting to these kinds of events as being 'big picture'
So, you highlighted three values, which I agree are good values, and perceive that I may have violated those values
I offer a different perspective
pauses
I am interested in being precise and thoughtful @ pause
So, I am willing to go line by line in the entire conversation (I don't think you're interested)
I am also willing to look at the last few tens of lines
I am also willing to look at the last 5-10 lines of Iuno towards me
I perceived him to trolling me
At that point, I perceived I had lost the crowd
I wasn't able to keep up with responses to all the people who were posting at me
And that can make people frustrated when they feel they're ignored
I decided to spend more of my cognition on developing my argument, both for myself, and because I sensed I had a mixture of computer science and philosophy that Mesa may not have fully encountered before
So, I was working harder on being a good speaker than a good listener
He mentioned eliminative materialism, which I thought was counter-productive for him
(Mesa)
I am familiar with that school of thought, but it was not my intention to act according to that school
I was more interested in thinking about how I would get a machine to solve some of these problems, somewhat independent of the history of philosophy
That could be a useful approach, as, perhaps, the history of philosophy is bogging us down
Also, being unaware of history can cause you to wander around in a room that is dark to you which has been previously illuminated by others
Marty - Today at 6:47 PM
Get to the point, please.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:47 PM
And so I perceived Mesa to be internally satisfied he knew what I was doing -- I was merely doing eliminate materialism, and, now categorized, any confusion or challenges my arguments might make to his worldview could be internally resolved with 'He belongs to a different school than me'
Okay
I went pretty deep into my argument, taking a passage from The Republic, and trying to figure out what it would take for a computer to understand that meaning
I selected a specific word I wasn't familiar with and Googled it. It was Greek for gymnasium. Iuno seemed to be increasingly trolling me
I copied the meaning of the word from the results, and states a picture of a Greek "gymnasium"
He asked, "Did it include pictures of naked men?"
That seems to be a very clear troll
What do you think
and described a picture*
Marty - Today at 6:51 PM
I mean,
If iunno was trolling you a-posterori.
I don't really care, ya know?
It's like, unforunate.
But if I was really annoyed I'd probably troll.
But like, that itself doesn't even seem that bad. It just seems like a joke.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:52 PM
Okay, I assert my ignoring him was a joke
Is that sufficient?
Marty - Today at 6:52 PM
Well, you can assert anything you want?
You could assert that your assertion is a joke. Like, at one point, we have to intellectually honest. Or we'll just come to a disagree here on what consistutes whatever.
Doesn't really gets us anywhere.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:53 PM
Is it possible for a moderator to be wrong in their behavior?
Marty - Today at 6:54 PM
Sure. But you're also talking to someone who wasn't there. Has to go by the opinon of them, or you.
So like, I'm not sure what you want me to do. W.R.T to what you've told me.
Are you familair with the mind-body dualism, btw?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:55 PM
You are not limited to taking either of our opinions -- I believe the entire conversation is logged
Marty - Today at 6:55 PM
Have you read any literature on the mind-body dualism?
It's not.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:55 PM
I am somewhat familiar with mind-body dualism, yes
Marty - Today at 6:55 PM
Your content was deleted.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:55 PM
Wow
Marty - Today at 6:55 PM
So, like,
How do you explain...
That the formation of ideas or concepts, the making of judgments, and logical reasoning (as all grounded in fundamental intellectual powers), is an essentially immaterial process, i.e. intrinsically independent of matter, however much it may be extrinsically dependent on matter for its normal operations in the human being. So you avoid a reductionistic approach to the mind w.r.t to this kind of theory.
As well, you can't bundle together a self through seperatae events because those events that "bundles" them together are clear and distinct, however, intutively the self seems to be a unity, there is a unified whole, an "I" that accompanies all experiences that preceded it's events. Otherwise we could never say that in T1, T2, T3, etc you aren't altogether a different person. But this is clearly absurd, you seem to have some persisting self-sameness to you - this being the subject. You seem to be able to coherently put together different events into one logical, unified whole.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:56 PM
It makes sense it would be hidden from the channel, as, at that point, the poster was deemed invalid
Marty - Today at 6:56 PM
What?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:56 PM
But there's no behind the scenes log?
Marty - Today at 6:56 PM
You're not answering the question.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:56 PM
I'm trying to get more information on the previous point
Before you asked me to explain this text
Marty - Today at 6:57 PM
Oh, okay.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:57 PM
?
Marty - Today at 6:57 PM
?
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:58 PM
I perceive you to be doing a power demonstration
My question mark means, 'Where you going to address my two previous posts?'
Marty - Today at 6:58 PM
I asked you to answer the question. If you want.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:58 PM
So far, have I shown good faith in addressing all your posts?
Marty - Today at 6:58 PM
Sure.
I guess.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 6:59 PM
So, I'll probably address your question
And I am trying to resolve the previous point before moving on
Marty - Today at 6:59 PM
Of course I can take someone elses' judgement on the issue outside of my moderators.
That should be prima-facie evident as I'm talking to you.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:00 PM
"It makes sense it would be hidden from the channel, as, at that point, the poster was deemed invalid"
"But there's no behind the scenes log?"
Marty - Today at 7:00 PM
No, there's not.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:00 PM
Okay
I think that's really unfortunate
1 - That content was valuable to me and I wanted to copy it for my records
2 - It seems relatively easy to have a behind the scenes log, while also hiding the content from the channel
Marty - Today at 7:01 PM
Shrug. Maybe.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:01 PM
3 - It seems it makes it easier for moderators to, either on purpose or not, to hide evidence of mistakes if and when they make them
Marty - Today at 7:01 PM
It's been addressed before.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:01 PM
(I will get to your question)
Do you think it's a good idea for people to generally try to emulate Western jurisprudence when in community with others?
Like, as one of their values when trying to figure out 'what should we do?'
Marty - Today at 7:02 PM
It's not something I really want to debate about.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:02 PM
I see
I live in the United States. In any interaction with authority that is empowered by the state, record keeping is a pretty basic value, as it allows future oversight
My being denied that, given my cultural upbringing, is pretty bothersome
Marty - Today at 7:03 PM
I'm sorry?
Look, this is exactly the opposite of what I wanted to do.
Debate this with you for thirty minutes.
This has a habit of happening.
With everyone.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:04 PM
I don't expect organizations not acting as agents of the state to meet those recording keeping standards in the same extent, but I'd like thoughtfulness of 'What would Western jurisprudence do here?' to be one of their values
Marty - Today at 7:04 PM
And I'm kinda running out of patience.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:04 PM
Along with grace, humility, and epistemic humility
Marty - Today at 7:04 PM
Everyone feels like they have the "right" to debate law, justice, ethics, their view on it,  and what I ought to do, what the rules should be like.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:04 PM
That's understandable @ your time being valuable to youo
Marty - Today at 7:05 PM
It gets bothersome, because honestly your view are the same as everyone else I talked to.
You're not telling me anything I haven't heard before.
Look. There just have to be some rules, there has to be some trust in the moderators to make a descison. Yes, the logs are deleted. It's unforunate. They could have been not deleted, but then we'd have logs with debates that drag more drama and attention to the chatroom, with more people attemping to take "sides" - creating what is a peaceful community into something dramatic. Something where certain beliefs, which are uninformed, are defended  just for the sake of liberity.  But you haven't been in the chatroom as long as I have. Occasionally you just get people aruging for anything arrogantly, and then defend themselves by saying that we should preverse their right to say whatever.
But of course that doesn't work, because it ruins the quality of the chat when you have someone like a Phyrroheian skeptic arguing that you can't know anytihng.
Also the moderators aren't machines. If you're ignoring them, and just talking about your beliefs, which are inexperienced, is just going to annoy the moderators.
It'll get you banned.
I have very amibigous rules on purpose.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:09 PM
What is your role in this server?
Marty - Today at 7:09 PM
I'm Admin.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:09 PM
I'm not entirely clear on that
is that the highest level?
Marty - Today at 7:09 PM
Yes.
I'm sorry you have to deal with me as your last resort.
Truthfully, being an admin is sometimes a hassle. And I have a werid view of justice. So enforcing a set of rules isn't like I'd like to handle things.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:10 PM
(That wasn't me probing if there somebody else I can go to, just to be clear)
+is
I think you're giving an accurate representation of the values of the server
I think your longer paragraph above contains pretty reasonable values
I'm pausing as I am trying to moderate what I perceive to be your interest level and my own emotional well-being
Do you assert it is always disallowed on your server to ignore a moderator?
(I'm trying to ask a few specific questions to understand where we're at)
Marty - Today at 7:13 PM
It's definitely a bad start.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:13 PM
(If you assert always, then there's no need for me to argue about the reasons of my ignore choice)
(For example)
Marty - Today at 7:14 PM
Im about to head out, btw.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:14 PM
How much time do you have before you leave
Marty - Today at 7:15 PM
Leaving now.
So, I'd say a minute or two.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:15 PM
Are you interested in continuing at a later date
Marty - Today at 7:16 PM
No, lol.
But Im not gonna ignore you if you decide to PM me.
I mean, I don't enjoy debating about bans.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:17 PM
Neither do I
Marty - Today at 7:17 PM
So it being in any way "interesting" to me...
Like
It's not.
I'd rather be doing other things.
I'd talk to Iunno, honestly, about your ban,.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:17 PM
I would rather somebody in leadership on the server showed patience and informed me how they felt about my ignoring Iuno
Marty - Today at 7:17 PM
If you convince him to unban you, that's fine.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:17 PM
Rather than insta-banning
As the history of Western thought pretty much indicates insta-decisions are often bad
Unless they're made by the powerful
Marty - Today at 7:18 PM
I doubt it was instant.
It took some time before you were banned.
All mediated.
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:18 PM
There was no communication of intent to ban
No escalation
Marty - Today at 7:18 PM
Any way, I'm off. As I've said.
Later.
(Nor does there have to be. Says so in the rules.)
JaysonSunshine - Today at 7:19 PM
Take care.