Ryanoli lecture on neural basis of tulpas

[b]The early times[/b]

The [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa]Wikipedia article[/url] references both the 1927 and 1929 books.

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16:34:37 HumbleGlow I bet if you ask people around here, you'll get 100 different answers
16:35:00 TMFMD I would like to know where to begin, a tulpa is a creation that only you see a imaginary friend for adults
16:35:24 HumbleGlow It's much more than that.
16:35:41 TMFMD i know i dont want to go though it all
16:35:58 HumbleGlow First, the "that only you see" part, the hallucinating it in the physical world, is not essential to it being a tulpa. It's a capability that tulpas and hosts can choose to learn.
16:35:59 Mena_ we can help you start, but i want to know more about you first if that's ok
16:36:27 TMFMD yea sure im a open book shoot
16:36:57 HumbleGlow Second, a tulpa is more than an imaginary friend. An imaginary friend is when you make up another person, but act as that person. Even if it appears separate, it really is just you roleplaying it. A tulpa is an independent being that forms its own opinions and expresses its own feelings.
16:37:32 TMFMD i know i read all of tulpa.info
16:37:48 HumbleGlow Still I'm putting emphasis on it.
16:38:10 Mena_ it's kind of an important distinction
16:38:17 TMFMD okay master HumbleGlow
16:38:19 Mena_ how old are you tyler? :)
16:38:23 TMFMD 14
16:38:25 Absolum Saying "a tulpa is more than an imaginary friend" is like saying "Earth is more than a planet"
16:38:54 TMFMD Ugh both earth is just a... okay Master
16:38:57 HumbleGlow That's very young. Too young, some would say.
16:39:16 TMFMD everone starts somewhere
16:39:22 TMFMD everyone
16:39:48 HumbleGlow Yes, but your brain should be reasonably mature before you start creating tulpas. 16:39:56
TMFMD hmm Humble you wouldnt happen to live in Humble, Tx
16:40:04 ryonaloli HumbleGlow: that's not true, many children have imaginary friends
16:40:07 Absolum The distinction lies in that [really] Tulpa is a Buddhist practice, imaginary friends are made casually by many children
16:40:11 ryonaloli in fact i'd say it's best to start young
16:40:24 ryonaloli and imaginary friends are the same as tulpas if they are independent or partially so
16:40:31 ryonaloli (like most true childhood imaginary friends)
16:40:46 TMFMD Sensei ryonaloli
16:41:00 Mena_ i wouldn't know anything about imaginary friends
16:41:05 HumbleGlow ryonaloli: I don't strictly advise against young people making tulpas, but they should be aware of the responsibility that this entails. They're creating another person, after all.
16:41:07 Absolum But is there grounds to call it Tulpa if it's not actually being practised as in Tibetan Buddhism?
16:41:15 Mena_ but i can tell you that tulpa are not imaginary
16:41:34 bersinger Tibetans are talentless hacks
16:41:35 ryonaloli HumbleGlow: that's very suggestive thouh
16:41:37 ryonaloli *though
16:41:41 ryonaloli it's not like creating a true child
16:41:46 ryonaloli it's up to them
16:41:57 TMFMD Sensei ryonaloli see what i started
16:42:00 HumbleGlow True, true.
16:42:05 Mena_ here's a though experiment: can a figment of your imagination imagine a different imagination?
16:42:21 Mena_ forgive my silly wording
16:42:26 TMFMD imaginationception
16:42:34 Absolum If you believe in metaphysics sure, they are not imaginary friends
16:42:57 jonipasi Davin: Uuuh... Iiii think the answer is "no"
16:42:59 ryonaloli no Mena_
16:43:01 ryonaloli it can't
16:43:15 ryonaloli you both share the same visuospacial sketchpad, visual memory
16:43:26 TMFMD whos both?
16:43:34 ryonaloli ?
16:43:51 jonipasi Davin: But we can conjure up different philosophies based on the host's knowledge
16:43:58 TMFMD you said you both who are the two you refer to
16:44:15 ryonaloli both being tulpa and host
16:44:20 TMFMD ohh
16:44:27 Mena_that's just not true
16:44:28 ryonaloli so a figment of your imagination cannot imagine a different imagination
16:44:40 ryonaloli but it is, you both share the same memory
16:44:44 ryonaloli *visual memory, etc
16:44:57 Mena_ memory and imagination are very different things
16:45:08 TMFMD I have a question for everyone
16:45:11 ryonaloli visual memory though
16:45:16 ryonaloli that's pretty mcuh imagination,
16:45:18 ryonaloli yeah TMFMD?
16:45:24 Mena_ and even the idea of a shared memory isn't necessarily true
16:45:41 ryonaloli that's 100% true though
16:45:44 TMFMD can a tulpa remember where you placed something you forgot
16:45:53 ryonaloli even if you choose (consciously or unconsiously) to withold information
16:45:56 ryonaloli TMFMD: sort of
16:45:59 jonipasi yes the tulpa can
16:46:01 ryonaloli a tulpa can remind you just as you can remind yourself
16:46:02 HumbleGlow TMFMD: Maybe, but not necessarily.
16:46:07 ryonaloli but they don't have an inate ability anymore than you do
16:46:13 jonipasi no perfect memory recall, but a better one
16:46:24 ryonaloli jonipasi: it's not better though, unless you practise a lot
16:46:34 jonipasi well yeah
16:46:37 ryonaloli (tulapforcing might be practice by itself though)
16:46:43 TMFMD I started something truely beautiful here
16:46:46 Albin9k Hello
16:46:49 Mena_ tulpa just have different recall
16:46:53 ryonaloli but having a tulpa doesn't increase memory unelss you believe it will (to a certain extent)
16:46:53 Mena_ not better or worse
16:46:55 Absolum I doubt a tulpa can make someone recover memories lost to brain damage
16:47:01 Mena_ just another opportunity
16:47:02 ryonaloli Mena_: they use the same memory circuits though
16:47:08 HumbleGlow hi Albin9k; you're new as well?
16:47:09 ryonaloli well, they use the same mechanisms at least
16:47:15 Mena_ that's your interpretation of it hon
16:47:16 Albin9k Yup
16:47:33 Mena_ my memories and my hosts are distinct to some extent
16:47:34 ryonaloli that's my interpretation as a neuroscientist
16:47:48 Mena_ :\ 16:47:49 ryonaloli they can be distinct Mena_, that doesn't mean they're truly separate
16:47:55 ryonaloli just that you decide to partition them
16:48:18 ryonaloli it's like a hard drive. partitioned memory still resides on the same disk, even if the operating system treats it separately, until it decides to repartition at least
16:48:30 Mena_ i think you might be overestimating your understanding of the phenomenon of memory and imagination
16:48:36 ryonaloli if you have distinct memories, it's because you believe you do. the power of suggestion is very great, and is enough to partition memories like that
16:48:52 ryonaloli i don't think so. partitioning memories is not unique to tulpas at all
16:49:12 ryonaloli it's as simple as you not having access to the same memories your tulpa does, through a soft-limit
16:49:18 TMFMD im going to vanish use my name if you need me
16:49:40 HumbleGlow Albin9k: Topic seems to be explaining stuff to another newcomer. Do you have any specific questions that we can try to answer?
16:50:45 ryonaloli Mena_: what do you think it is then? what do you think defines the memory's separation?
16:50:53 Albin9k Well, I don't know much about tulpas
16:51:46 Mena_ i don't know enough to determine that
16:52:12 HumbleGlow Albin9k: Most of us don't. xD It tends to be a subjective topic.
16:52:29 ryonaloli then why do you claim my explaination is incorrect (or imply it) if you don't have grounds to form your own theory?
16:52:44 Mena_ its unsure how much the physical mechanisms have to do with the processes of the mind
16:52:52 ryonaloli everything
16:52:57 Mena_ i think that you are just theorizing
16:53:08 TMFMD Sensei ryonaloli youre hurting my head
16:53:08 ryonaloli theory != educated guess
16:53:33 ryonaloli Mena_: what i've said so far is rooted in facts. it applies to alters, and i infer that it applies to our alters as well
16:53:46 ryonaloli TMFMD: too mcuh science? lol
16:53:57 Mena_ there are no facts in psychology...
16:54:00 TMFMD inference=EDUCATED GUESS
16:54:07 TMFMD not theory
16:54:09 Albin9k I have an idea of how my tulpa shuld look like, but how do I start?
16:54:14 ryonaloli Mena_: neuroscience, not psychology
16:54:22 HumbleGlow Albin9k: Have you looked at the guides in the forum?
16:54:23 ryonaloli psychology is not (often) hard science anyway
16:54:28 ryonaloli it's sociology + stastics
16:54:32 ryonaloli *statistics
16:54:40 ryonaloli but the gap is quickly being bridged
16:54:40 Mena_ :\
16:54:58 ryonaloli and things like alters (and tulpas) are beginning to be covered on a neurological scale
16:55:01 TMFMD no they dont end up to look like what you want i mean you have some choose
16:55:04 Absolum @Albin9k Start talking to it!
16:55:07 ryonaloli (see, gamma rhythm, dynamic core, etc)
16:55:12 Mena_ emphasis on beginning
16:55:19 ryonaloli not really
16:55:28 ryonaloli beginning because there's so much to learn
16:55:34 ryonaloli not because what we already know is just a guess
16:56:01 ryonaloli it's like space. we don't know much at all about space when it comes to space as a whole, but that doesn't mean we can't predict planetary movements to the meter
16:56:06 Albin9k So... much... text... That's all I say about that
16:56:25 ryonaloli same with neuroscience. there's so much more to learn, but that doesn't mean there isn't confidence in much of what's already known
16:56:45 HumbleGlow Albin9k: "So much text" is a good thing here. Tulpaforcing is a highly personal process, so it's unlikely that any single guide works for you perfectly.
16:57:05 HumbleGlow Albin9k: You should have a look at many different guides, and select methods that you think are right for you.
16:57:25 Mena_ ptolemy predicted planetary motion to a very exacting degree despite not understanding anything about the actual processes that drove those calculations
16:57:51 ryonaloli i was giving an example. i'm not an expert in astronomy
16:58:06 Mena_ i can only say that my experience has not been the same as how you view it as a neuroscience student
16:58:21 ryonaloli anecdotal experience is not valid
16:58:27 ryonaloli i saw a dragon once with my own two eyes
16:58:29 ryonaloli doesn't mean its' real
16:59:05 Mena_ ptolemy thought the planets moved around the earth in two perfect circles
16:59:28 ryonaloli i don't know enough about astronomy to comment on that, i hope you aren't trying to attack that example
16:59:50 Mena_ being able to identify parts of a motion is not the same thing as understanding the phenomenon
16:59:57 Mena_ that's all i'm trying to say
17:00:34 ryonaloli i can understand how LTP works without knowing the intricate interactions between amino acids in AMPA and NMDA receptors
17:00:37 TMFMD Sensei? Whats 6/2(1=2)
17:00:49 ryonaloli wat, what's the = for
17:01:14 TMFMD (1+2)
17:01:16 TMFMD soory
17:01:18 TMFMD sorry
17:01:58 ryonaloli 0.5 i thihnk
17:02:05 ryonaloli or is that one of those impossible ones?
17:02:17 ryonaloli oh wait
17:02:19 ryonaloli 1
17:02:28 ryonaloli yeah fuck imossible problems
17:02:30 HumbleGlow unless you mean 6/(2*(1+2))=1
17:02:30 ryonaloli lol
17:02:33 Mena_ its 9
17:02:45 HumbleGlow In which case your notation is f*cked up
17:03:05 TMFMD im sorry no matter what you guess the answer will always be E=MC2
17:03:08 ryonaloli that's not even a proper equation
17:03:15 ryonaloli >MC2
17:03:18 ryonaloli you mean MC^2
17:03:53 Mena_ ryon i guess our definitions of understanding are very different
17:04:19 ryonaloli Mena_: i say understanding is when you know enough about something to make accurate inferences about it
17:04:22 Mena_ and when it comes to how the human mind works, prediction is definitely not the same thing as understanding
17:04:31 ryonaloli but we know a lot about the mind
17:04:34 ryonaloli and some things, we know very well
17:04:37 HumbleGlow TMFMD: Explain yourself.
17:04:40 TMFMD 9 and 1 are also possible answer but according to the board of math its E=MC(squared)
17:05:08 ryonaloli ^2 is squared TMFMD
17:05:25 TMFMD alright
17:05:46 HumbleGlow TMFMD: If that is supposed to be the answer, than you're implying non-standard notational definitions, in which case I question the fairness of your question.
17:05:52 ryonaloli Mena_: for example, the circuits basal nuclei and how it drives all sorts of behavior and decision making is *very* well known
17:06:17 Mena_ why does it do that?
17:06:21 ryonaloli and that's why EEG machines can know what button you decide to press up to 10 seconds in advance
17:06:37 ryonaloli why does what do what?
17:06:39 Albin9k Gtg
17:06:59 TMFMD just remeber the answer to life is 42
17:07:13 Mena_ why does the circuits basal nuclei drive all sorts of behavior and decision making
17:07:38 ryonaloli oh, what do you mean why? it does it because it's part of the "archeic" brain, before advanced executive function was available
17:07:48 ryonaloli it's like asking why eyes see. it does that because that's the role it needs to do
17:07:49 HumbleGlow Mena_: Admittedly, it's difficult to impose a meaning on neural structures that most probably have developed through evolutionary processes.
17:08:04 HumbleGlow Yeah, what ryonaloli says.
17:08:12 ryonaloli function is easy to impose, but evolution has no "meaning" in that context
17:08:18 ryonaloli er, no "purpose"
17:08:32 HumbleGlow Yeah, sorry, seems like I cannot English today.
17:08:47 ryonaloli eh? i was just expanding
17:08:57 ryonaloli not correcting
17:08:58 Mena_ so what part of your mind is in the circuits basal nuclei?
17:09:08 Mena_ and why does it reside there
17:09:20 Mena_ can you focus on that part?
17:09:31 Mena_ :o
17:09:41 ryonaloli hm, well there's no one "part". but every time you have two or more alternative actions (or thoughts), the basal nuclei are involved
17:09:53 ryonaloli what do you mean focus on it?
17:09:57 Mena_ ...
17:10:00 ryonaloli like, experience it in action?
17:10:39 Mena_ so when you make a decision, neuroscience knows that it in some way involves this particular branch of the brain
17:10:48 ryonaloli yeah
17:10:58 Mena_ is that the extent of it?
17:11:11 ryonaloli extent of how well it's understood? no, not at all
17:11:31 HumbleGlow Or rather: Neuroscience knows that the basal nuclei in what is probably at least most of decisions being made.
17:11:34 ryonaloli it may very well be the most well understood aspect of the brain (for circuitry, aside from maybe the cerebellum on a cellular level)
17:11:43 ryonaloli HumbleGlow: a lot more than that is knwon
17:11:45 ryonaloli *known
17:11:50 HumbleGlow *is involved in
17:12:04 ryonaloli and also, all decisions are made there. or rather all decisions are *finalized* there
17:12:20 HumbleGlow I assume that the brain is complex enough that you cannot yet rule out the possibility that some specific part of decision making takes place elsewhere.
17:12:23 Mena_ but what does that have to do with your mind is the question im trying to relate it to
17:12:30 ryonaloli the basal nuclei are the ones who basically tally the "votes", and make the final decision so the rest of the brain can stay in sync
17:12:56 ryonaloli Mena_: you have to elaborate on "mind", otherwise it's too broad of a question
17:13:10 Mena_ the thing i'm talking to
17:13:36 ryonaloli ?
17:13:41 ryonaloli oh, tulpa?
17:13:44 ryonaloli how does it relate to tulpas?
17:14:08 Mena_ are tulpa not a mind without physicality?
17:14:52 ryonaloli tulpas are basically a secondary personality. it's still stored in the brain physically in the form of engrams (change in neuron size and structure)
17:15:13 ryonaloli mind is such a broad term, the answer would change grossly depending on your definition
17:15:33 ryonaloli if by mind you mean consciousness, or mental processes, or the whole thing (brain included), or any neurological activity, or what
17:16:21 Mena_ consciousness
17:16:39 Mena_ consciousness guided by personality
17:16:49 Mena_ and informed by memory
17:17:28 ryonaloli ah, well that goes to a whole different level. consciousness itself (not including free will, which has no place in science) is a more limited aspect of the mind, driven by the "dynamic core"
17:17:48 ryonaloli the basal nuclei are part of that when portions of it are included in the dynamic core
17:18:57 ryonaloli dynamic core = parts of the brain that are "bound" together by sharing a gamma rhythm. different parts of the brain are included or excluded in 100-200ms intervals
17:19:12 ryonaloli any process occuring in a part of the brain while it's in the dynamic core is shared with consciousness
17:20:11 ryonaloli so if the basal nuclei are making a decision, and it is important enough to be conscious (and not just available to the frontal lobe's executive functions), that part of the basal nuclei will syncronize gamma rhythms with the rest of the dynamic core, and you will become consciously aware of the decision making process
17:20:14 ryonaloli does that make sense?
17:21:30 * HumbleGlow enjoys the lecture (the one in the chat, not the IRL one)
17:22:17 ryonaloli so it's not simple enough to say, how do these relate to consciousness and tulpas
17:22:59 ryonaloli 121
17:23:03 Mena_ so
17:23:28 ryonaloli so?
17:23:50 HumbleGlow ryonaloli: In that model, would working on vocality mean that you train yourself to include in the dynamic core the part of the brain that vocalizes the tulpa's thoughts?
17:23:54 Mena_ by having the gamma rhythms become aligned, our mind is capable of percieving the decision making process?
17:23:55 Nobillis so tempted to refer to "sound of music"
17:24:17 ryonaloli Mena_: any part of the brain that has a syncronized gamma rhythm is included in conscious perception
17:24:18 Mena_ how does the brain know to do this alignment
17:24:30 ryonaloli it's based on "votes" and "vetos"
17:24:34 Mena_ what directs it
17:24:47 ryonaloli no one thing directs it. it's a complete democracy
17:25:04 Mena_ and now we're in unprovable theory world
17:25:12 ryonaloli no, this is hard facts
17:25:39 TMFMD i see, i see
17:25:53 ryonaloli for example, if you see a garden hose, your amygdala (which processes fear) will tell you to freeze, or run away (oh no snake!), but your frontal lobe (rationality) and hippocampus (detecting "off teh wall" stimuli) say "no, it's harmless". your basal nuclei get all this, and then decide what the final decision should be
17:25:57 Mena_ the idea that the brain mirrors the social construct of an athenian style democracy is a hard fact?
17:26:03 ryonaloli once it comes up with the decision, the rest of the brain follows it
17:26:15 ryonaloli yes, that's hard fact. in fact, that's how neurons themselves also work
17:26:34 ryonaloli it's a mix between "votes" of EPSPs (excitatory post synaptic potentials) and IPSPs (inhibitory)
17:26:42 Mena_ and how do the neurons decide what to vote
17:26:44 ryonaloli if the electrical potential reaches a certain intensity, the neuron fires
17:27:30 ryonaloli they decide simply based on how much excitation vs inhibition they receive, along with chemicals called neuromodulators which "tune" it's sensitivity, and potentiation which is per-synapse memory which also tunes individual synapse's sensitivity
17:27:44 ryonaloli this has been tested even to the molecular level (see: patch clamping)
17:28:29 ryonaloli and this also applies to larger scale circuits. one of the most well known is the cerebellar circuit for motor feedback (like a servo motor control chip) with purkinji cells
17:29:57 Mena_ this sounds like an awful lot of what with very little how or why
17:30:21 Mena_ but i'm not sure other people are enjoying this conversation
17:30:23 Mena_ :o
17:30:26 ryonaloli how is more complicated, i can't wont into that right now unless you want me to (it involves the mechanisms of action potentials)
17:30:27 Mena_ i don't want to be rude
17:30:55 HumbleGlow It's interesting IMO. If anyone else has on-topic questions, by all means step up, though.
17:30:56 ryonaloli if you don't want to talk about this i won't force it
17:31:04 Mena_ i'm fascinated
17:31:40 ryonaloli also, there's really no "why" to this either
17:32:51 ryonaloli i guess the closest "why" would be that it's an efficient way to impliment simple information processing without the need for strict logic circuits (which have limited abilities and need high accuracy), and can be implemented with very small modifications to proteins already in cells
17:33:10 ryonaloli but unless you want me to explain the how, just take my word on it
17:33:27 Mena_ i guess not
17:33:32 ryonaloli ok
17:33:34 Mena_ i'll learn it myself
17:33:43 ryonaloli ok
17:34:07 ryonaloli but you understand now that neurons "vote" to know whether or not to fire, right?
17:34:19 ryonaloli and that it's not just a weak theory, it's the central dogma of neurology
17:34:49 bersinger discussion here? no sorry beginner hugbox
17:34:51 bersinger white piggu go _subc
17:35:12 bersinger - infoan proverb from 1991
17:35:40 bersinger did neurology really thin 6 million people regards: pondering chinologist
17:36:05 ryonaloli shut up bersinger, shitposting is really obnoxious
17:36:33 bersinger assburger macht frei
17:36:42 bersinger this was a simulation of modern moderational politics though :Dd
17:37:04 HumbleGlow No.
17:37:06 bersinger besides that social commentary yuo are free to continue's on my behalf but not on law's behalf
17:39:00 Mena_ no i don't understand now
17:39:12 Mena_ but i will learn more
17:39:59 ryonaloli but you believe it at least?
17:40:08 ryonaloli or you understand that it does, regardless of the mechanisms
17:40:09 Nobillis bersinger's humor is often obscure (and takes a dictionary to transcribe). He loses much in translation.
17:40:43 Mena_ it seems like a framework that provides a reasonable approximation of the events that take place and the means to identify and predict their occurances
17:40:58 Mena_ much like ptolemies