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three-two-one
hello and welcome to another Center for
progressive urban politics podcast today
is Friday November 22nd and I have the
distinct pleasure to be with an old
friend Dimitri Orlov Dimitri welcome to
the show great to be with you well
Dimitri for those who may not be well
initiated with your work you've done
some amazing research when it comes to
looking at collapse and also comparing
and contrasting America and Russia you
came to the United States as an
immigrant when you were a child in the
70s you now recently moved back to
Russia and in that time you you've
written a number of books one of which
was called reinventing collapse which i
think is probably with the work you're
best known for where when you were
living in our states you went back to
the Soviet Union as the collapse was
taking place and you chronicled it and
you looked at what was happening and
what lessons Americans could probably
take from that in terms of how prepared
we are because there were certainly
aspects where as as backward as the
Russian economy might have appeared and
other facets of Soviet life there
actually couldn't end up being much
better prepared for collapse then we are
and what I think ultimately will happen
to America and our economic system
you've written a number of books on the
Technosphere and artificial intelligence
you're a publisher of other people's
books and currently you have an amazing
blog
I really strongly suggest everyone goes
and subscribe to your club Orlov blog I
know I do and it's always gives me some
fascinating insights on geopolitics as
well as local politics economics is just
a great source for me but Dimitri I have
you here today for something very
specific and that is a few weeks ago I
attended the 2019 political now this was
my fourth political for those who have
never been to political it's kind of
like comic-con for political geeks wonks
and it's like mixing nitro and glycerin
together for instance you might have Van
Jones and Ann Coulter up on the same
stage or Ben Shapiro and Jiang Cheng are
facing off well one of the panels that
this year's political was called Russia
Russia Russia and it was a five person
panel most of whom you'd recognize from
cable television cable news MSNBC CNN RT
and it was basically with the exception
of one panelist a big hate fest
on Russia and Putin and I you know being
a reader of club Orlov and your
experiences now that you're back in
Russia and my knowledge of history
geopolitics
I myself I was a counterintelligence
officer in the 1980s I worked in Europe
for NATO Soviets we called it Soviet
threat was something I had studied
intensely sister of mine got a her
bachelor's and master's degree in Slavic
language and literature so I feel it I'm
pretty a climatic to the you know a lot
of facets of Russian history not you
know somewhat superficially and I was
really in the I was having a Bissell
visceral response to how this panel was
going and
how they were basically villainizing
Russia and Putin and I just saw the
hypocrisy being displayed and again the
the retelling of this failed narrative
of the Russians having elected Trump by
involving themselves in the 2016
elections so I thought Dmitry I'd pay
clay one I got a place it'll end up
being like 15 clips and then I'd like to
have a discussion with you at the end of
each clip on what you thought of it but
I'd like to start off with the intro to
the panel for Malcolm Nance and people
probably recognize him from Emily I'll
go ahead and show my screen here at a
moment but folks might recognize him
from MSNBC like he'll describe here he's
a former intelligence officer and this I
think sets the tone now Dmitry can you
see the screen yes right I'll go ahead
and lurch that and play that for our
audience because that's all we hear
about all day and all night but I'm
gonna focus on the choice of scandal
prettily it's not just because I wrote
three books on the matter it's because
as an intelligence former intelligence
professional I recognize the threat that
Russia presents to the world today
okay the threat that Russia presents to
the world today so I'm going to jump
into that set the tone what I'd like to
do Dimitri's jump into our next clip and
my cursor back over here and I think our
audience is going to appreciate actually
hearing and seeing this okay so this is
the first clip where they talk about the
economy of Russia many times
Russia is a trailer park with atomic
bombs okay they have a very large
economy we have Russia produces weapon
systems oil and natural gas
okay Dmitri so tell me is the Russian
economy nothing more than a trailer park
with atomic weapons well that's actually
you know absolutely hilarious because
this person clearly doesn't have much of
a grasp of facts now you can you can
look at the size of the economy in in
dollars or Euros at the current
conversion rate but that's relatively
meaningless what you have to take into
account is how far the money goes you
know there are lots of examples of that
for instance I can go downstairs right
now and have a really good meal you know
the sort of thing that I like to eat to
eat and so on Russian so I like to have
a three-course meal you know borscht for
soup then I'll have blini for for the
main course meal and then I'll have a
compound which is steward fruit for for
dessert if I were to try to fight that
and
and it wouldn't cost me $3 it cost me
$70 and it might be as good so that's
you know purchasing parity there are
lots of other similar examples if I were
to need an appendectomy while on a visit
to the United States no insurance that
would probably cost me on the order of
60 to 80 thousand dollars if that were
to happen to me in Moscow that would
cost me $2,000 see the difference
absolutely United States they register
the ridiculous cost of doing various
things as their GDP and based on that
they claim that their economy is
absolutely huge
of course what they're doing is they're
gouging each other the Americans are
gouging each other the Russians are not
and therefore the Russian economy looks
small but if you take the the purchasing
parity into account it turns out that
the Russian economy is sixth largest in
the world after Germany but then Germany
has been dropping by
single-digit sometimes more in terms of
its industrial production and moving
factories literally aggressively to
Russia so Mercedes built built a factory
in Russia lots of I talked to a German
consultant yesterday who's whose job is
moving as many factories out of Germany
and into Russia as possible so Germany
is going to be six largest pretty soon
and Russia is going to be 5th largest
and there aren't that many countries
that are that big there's a China
followed by the United States followed
by India followed by Japan followed by
Russia now Japan is probably going to is
probably going to be the next one Japan
is the reason Russia will be fourth
largest in the coming years
I don't think Russia will ever surpass
India though just because of the size of
the population so this fellow just
doesn't have his numbers right right
there are a number of things that he
doesn't have right and at the end I'll
talk to you about I actually bumped into
Malcolm Mane's outside on a street
corner after the panel and
kind of got into it but I want to play
this next clip to matric and I'm going
to go ahead and pull that up move that
over to screen 2 and large a little bit
for our audience and I will share our
screen once more desktop - ok prior to
the rise they become people but the
crack society that was 20 around the
edges of democracy now with Vladimir
Putin it has become part of the
philosophy of Tsar Nicholas the first
Oliver autocracy Orthodox religion
that's how this person Wow
so Dmitry is Russia a kleptocracy not so
much anymore it went that way in the
late 80s and then it became basically a
a criminal state in the 90s and then the
if I could in the late 80s was that
pretty much that people were seeing the
demise coming so it was like okay let's
fill my pockets do what I can for me and
my family prior to the collapse well no
actually the you know the Russians and
various other peoples of the Soviet
Union were probably the last die-hard
communists that there were that there
were traitors within the Communist Party
itself at some point in the late 80s
it basically negated the communist
ideology it basically made it
unnecessary and basically used the
structure of the Communist Party
in order to rob the country blind in in
as many ways as possible they
basically tried to feather their own
nests yes kinda like our upper one-tenth
of our upper 1% here in America in terms
of wealth they they seem to be
extracting an awful lot of wealth from
the system well yes and then that the
hope that whole thing went basically on
steroids after the Soviet Union fell
apart and and Western consultants like
Jeffery Sachs went in there and and
though there was a privatization program
where a whole bunch of oligarchs
basically privatized quote-unquote but
actually stole government resources that
had to be privatized in a hurry and that
was just wholesale robbery and and they
they expatriated a lot of that wealth a
lot of them bought mansions in London
and set themselves up and then after a
period of time they they sort of killed
each other so it's not a there's no
happy end for the for the for the
Russian kleptocrats and then Putin came
to power and and basically invalidated
the whole deal so now you know there are
wealthy people in Russia but they don't
have much political influence
interesting so I I characterize the u.s.
the current political system in the US
as just about a kleptocracy you look at
what's happened in terms of the
financialization of our system we don't
make anything here anymore it's all of
our manufacturers much of it has been
pushed offshore what they couldn't push
offshore they are offshoring the coming
in stripping the IP out between people's
ears of our knowledge workers and moving
those jobs overseas as well and who's
benefiting from that well the owners of
a stock of these companies that are
doing it the people that are chasing
these enormous profits through the free
flow of capital and people across
international borders with no regard for
the nation-state
at least that's my take on what's
happening here in America so I find it
it hypocritical when they're looking at
Russia as a kleptocracy and not talking
about the United States well the
difference is that you know Americans
look at corruption in other parts of the
world and they say oh you're doing
illegal things that's bad you're corrupt
the difference is that in the United
States corruption is legalized it's
perfectly legal
it's called Lobby yeah and then it's
called the justice system where you pay
to get the outcome you need you just
hire the best lawyers and if the other
side can't afford the best lawyers then
you win yeah and if you go up against
the federal government 98 percent of the
time you will lose throw the resources
of the state against you so yeah well
wonderful we got a lot of clips to play
the next one I'm going to play is a
theme that kept coming up during the
panel discussion and that seems to be
that President Trump and President Putin
are star-crossed lovers somehow so I'll
go ahead and share this great okay and I
will enlarge that for our audience okay
this person an ex-kgb Midland Colonel
became one of the richest men in the
world and one of the people who is most
fascinating
it absolutely object-- me in love with
him there you have it Donald Trump is in
love with Vladimir Putin well III think
that his love is unrequited because
Putin is married to Russia he's spoken
for not looking for any outside
relationship at this point in terms of
promotions fabulous wealth there's never
been any evidence of that and in fact
it's very hard to see why why Putin
would would bother with that he's got a
very serious job to do that he can do at
public expense he's got a jet he can fly
around on he's God has his daughters
that are paid for the one in Sochi is
quite fabulous it's an official
residence it's owned by the state so
basically everything he does is owned by
the state in terms of his personal
habits
he's Spartan you know that that's a
typical thing for Russian leaders you
know Stalin not probably not anyone's
favorite person but when he died he left
down he left behind several hundred
rubles in a savings account and an army
trench coat those were that that was the
sum total of his personal possessions
I don't think Putin is going to be all
that different eat goodness no oligarch
he's very good at at playing oligarchs
again against each other but he has no
personal aspirations as far as I can
tell of being one so you said something
earlier that I'd like to to expound a
bit more on you had talked of Putin as a
nationalist he his love his he's already
spoken for and that person is Russia he
reminded me I was reading a book on
ancient Greece years ago and it was and
at that time right just before that
period that entered into the Golden Age
the writer said it was said of the
Athenian that every Athenian has a
mistress and that mistress is Athens and
I think that's where that store virtue
came from that launched them into their
golden age and unfortunately into their
time of empire and their fall but he
that's to me I think it would be great
to have a a leader that puts their
country first before all other special
interests before the interests of other
countries I mean why is that such a bad
thing well that's the difference Garet
ISM and nationalism patriotism is where
you love your country you may love
others as well but you love your country
the best nationalism is where you kind
of like your own country but you hate
all the others so Goodin is definitely a
patriot he's neutral about every other
country in the world but he is
passionate about Russia right and you
know we should be so lucky to have
leaders here in the US that put their
country's needs before everyone else but
it seems that everyone has bought off on
this neoliberal view that we should have
the free movement of people and money
across borders so as to maximize profits
because it's all about the maximization
of the profit and it's not really about
what's good for the nation state and the
citizens of that nation state now as far
as Trump being in love with Putin there
may be a grain of truth to that
and the way it works is on a
psychological level not on a political
level Trump is definitely a narcissist
you can see that in absolutely the way
he projects himself he's very focused on
himself he's incredibly ego driven he
prides himself on being a successful
businessman for what that's worth you
know I don't think I would want to own
any of them but that's okay that's
that's just a matter of taste
I thought gerald Celente said it best he
was born on third base and thought he
hit a home run well yeah that's that's
one way to put it but but you see he's
not a statesman it takes a really long
time to become a statesman
it takes a lot of special training and
experience and talent and and Trump
doesn't have any of that so he's kind of
a bull in a china shop as far as
international politics goes and so he
looks at Putin and thinks well if if I
sort of cozy up to Putin maybe some of
that statesmanship will rub off on me
and I think that's very it works on the
subcon yeah he just he wants to become
Putin by osmosis or something like that
it's sort of like a you know it's not
going to work it's so you know four big
scratches it's it's back against the
corner of a synagogue it's not going to
become kosher you know it's just it
doesn't work that it's it is tragic for
us we're seeing once again our electoral
process play out again I watched the
Democratic debates the other night and
it was just nodding what's coming out
and the only person that seems to grasp
the concept of statesmanship and can be
possibly be that state's minutes tulsi
gabbard and our chances of getting
elected or probably no yes I would agree
with that
all right all right next next number six
here we go
and this is about the meddling in the
elections and I'm going to go ahead and
share our screen once again 30 percent
or maybe more it's called a 39% of this
nation
refuses to believe that the United
States was attacked in the 2016 election
by Russia and I'm very interested in
hearing somebody on my co-panelist one
of them works for a Russian propaganda
organization be propped up up the
Russian now called Russia today I'm
interested in hearing their version of
how they think that small nation with a
horrible economy is somehow punching
above its weight and Americans in this
very Convention Center refuse to believe
anything bad about Russia who is by the
way a James Bond evil villain with James
Bond villain money Wow
there is a lot to unpack there I guess
I'm one of those people in the audience
I just didn't buy off on 2000's the
Russian meddling in 2016 am I wrong
Dmitri am I am i delusional well you
know this is something that a lot of the
Russians think is really funny this is
the stuff of like night Russian night
comedy shows it's all about our man
Donny in the White House and how he
wants to come home she's always begging
Putin to bring him home bring him in and
Putin tells him we have to lock we have
to line up tulsi gabbard once we do that
they're free to go
none of that estate it's impossible to
take the stuff seriously like if first
of all these things are sort of fact
driven you know you just you can't keep
saying the same thing and not show any
evidence at all that's called a
barefaced lie and people who tell their
face lies or their fists dives and and
and so there's a point at which you you
have to stop taking people like that
seriously it's sort of like you know
this is no way to run a kindergarten
class you know somebody somebody needs a
timeout at some point you know that
that's
the whole Russia meddling thing the
update the hilarious aspect of it is
it's somebody messes up and then the
crime is that not that they messed up
but that it was discovered and the
Russians are too and that's a that's a
repeating theme you know and that
actually gets funnier every time they
use it
like I mess up they find out the
Russians did it
that's a logic and and the mess-up is I
believe the 2016 the general election
was supposed between supposed to be
between Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush I
think Trump went through 12 candidates
in the primary like a hot knife through
butter only because he was he was saying
things no one else would ever dream of
saying in a primary and then he got
Clinton on stage and mauled her and that
what I find the the most hypocritical of
all this Dmitri and I know he should be
pressing on because we got a lot of
clips to go through but here we had the
Democratic primary of 2016 that election
was clearly stolen from Bernie Sanders
Massachusetts Arizona every time they
did a recount of the counties in
California
Ernie one this was reported to the
campaign but the campaign just let it
all bounce off and there Bernie sat at
the convention watching Hillary give her
acceptance speech and to me that's where
the meddling was going on that's where
the election pilfering was going on and
get hue we are locked still into this
Russia Russia Russia narratives oh yes
well from the from the Russian point of
view it's sort of like a whole shelf of
porcelain falls over and and one plate
one plate doesn't get broken and the
Russians get blamed for for choosing
that plate that's what it looks like
absolutely
my motion sensor on my lights gave ya
special effect yeah there you go ooh
dark hunting cavernous looking studio
here I think in my office okay so this
next clip deals with Russia and the
Crimea I'm going to go ahead and share
that screen with you and our audience
and share and here we go
[Music]
okay I'll go ahead and stop sharing so
Dimitri what is your take on Russia the
Crimea from a vantage point of current
events as well as historical
perspectives well she started from from
Syria
so I'll start from Syria as well so
basically after Hillary Clinton was
instrumental in in toppling Libya the
Libyan government and that place got
infested by terrorists so first we came
we saw he died yeah and it became a
slave trading center a lot of the
weapons from there
God sent into Syria and sit and Syrian
terrorists got organized in order to
destroy the Syrian government as well
Russia intervened because basically a an
armed terrorist insurgency was being
organized very close to Russia's borders
from where it could spread spread to -
to - Russia itself and to Central Asian
Republics and so Russia decided to nip
that in the bud and and did so so now
Isis has been destroyed and all of the
other terrorist groups that have been
supported by the Pentagon and by the
State Department have been pretty much
demolished and all that remains is a
bunch of a bunch of Americans guarding a
bunch of oil fields and stealing Syrian
oil so Crimea is definitely a different
thing what happened there is
the United States bumped something like
between five and six billion dollars
into into the Ukraine in order to
politically destabilize it and it didn't
actually go the way they wanted because
they they got they basically got the
previous well two presidents ago
ukrainian President to agree to join the
EU and play along with NATO and but and
he was a very corrupt crooked man didn't
like him at all but but he had his good
points and one of them was that he knew
arithmetic he did a bit of math and
realized that this would this would
bankrupt him personally in the country
as a whole so he turned around and said
well I want to instead join the trade
union with with Russia and the other
Eurasian countries and that's when the
State Department pulled the trigger and
suddenly there was a revolution in Kiev
the government there was overthrown the
next thing that happened is that Crimea
the people of Crimea Crimea was a
basically an independent state within a
state within Ukraine it had autonomy it
had its own Parliament and its own
government that Parliament decided to
secede from the Ukraine and they held a
referendum one of several where the vast
majority of the people there voted to
leave the Ukraine and rejoin Russia the
Ukraine has been part of Russia for many
centuries it was lumped in with the
Ukraine or actually you create didn't
exist at the time with the Ukrainian
Soviet Socialist Republic that was done
by Khrushchev relatively recently it was
never really integrated into the Ukraine
it's just this peninsula that you people
from the Ukrainian went on vacations to
and and so it rejoined Russia by lawful
means it also any kind of a rebellion
also culturally because when you because
to me the dividing line is Roman
Catholicism and Greek orthodoxy and when
you look at Ukraine
are they Roman Catholic or they Greek
Orthodox to that would they be more
culturally in tune with Russia or Poland
and Lithuania
well the Ukraine is really not a country
it's a vulcanized territory it's it's
very much like the Balkans and different
parts of it a very interval into a woven
the eastern parts of it are really
Russia they were lumped in with what
became the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist
Republic in the 20s by Vladimir Lenin
who wanted a Russian presence there in
order to sort of industrialize the place
a little faster and and those people
never felt that they belong to any
entity called the Ukraine there was
never any country called the Ukraine
until a very brief period of time after
the Russian Revolution and then most
recently after the Soviet collapse
before that the Ukraine didn't exist so
the people of Crimea which Crimea has
been part of Russia since it basically
went over from from from the Mongol
Empire to Russia it was ruled last ruled
by a Khan who was given political asylum
in Russia then unfortunately he decided
to go to Turkey where he was executed
that that wasn't an unfortunate decision
on his part but you know Crimea lawfully
joined the Russian Empire many centuries
ago and then it lawfully rejoined the
Russian Federation recently and standing
in the way of the Crimean people as the
West chose to do was a rather silly
thing for them to do it's just not a
viable decision at all as far as troops
rolling into Crimea etc well troops have
been in Crimea for many centuries
Russian troops they were there under
international agreement most recently
the government in Kiev was getting huge
payments for stationing those troops
there they they didn't insert any new
troops there and there was no fighting
because the Ukrainians that who were
there they pretty much just surrendered
they immediately surrendered a lot of
them requested
Russian passports a lot of them are
still in Crimea with Russian passports a
few of them went back for family reasons
went back to the Ukraine but it was all
done perfectly peaceful in aboveboard
and perfectly by legal means I've heard
y'all here we probably will hear it
again in these clips how is it that the
Ukraine is now he's a strategic ally of
the United States I don't understand how
they went from East European former
Soviet republic to now a strategic
partner these I mean what does Ukraine
offer America that's something I don't
understand
shame I think is the main product that
the Ukrainian produces and that's that's
what it exports to the United States
look at congressional hearings now what
what the Ukraine has to offer or the
United States is a world of pain and
shame so if that's something the
Americans are interested in give the
Ukraine more money they'll steal it
great well on that head off to our next
clip let me go ahead and share our
screen I'm going back oh okay and this
gets us back into the election stealing
narrative
[Music]
of course earn more southern anything
[Music]
[Applause]
so Demetri I don't understand when she's
talking about
are using our divisions against as it
sounds rather just seems like bad form
now we're we have no proof that Russia
metal in 2016 it's a narrative and now
we're saying they're about to influence
our 2020 elections well she has a point
I hate to say it that she has a point
the way Russia influences American
politics is by existing and by being
Russia by being a relatively socially
conservative place that puts a lot of
value on intact families with children
that believes that children of the
future and that mommy and daddy should
bring up families not random strangers
of arbitrary genders and that is
incredibly appealing to a large part of
the American electorate who have been
sidelined by political correctness and
enforced social justice phenomena
so just because Russia exists and is
Russia makes it extremely appealing as a
model for a lot of people there are lots
of Christian families that are thinking
about moving to Russia and some of them
actually have I know some of them
interesting they did that they did that
for these specific reasons is that they
believe that an America has begun Sodom
and Gomorrah they they believe that it's
a place that's going to hell that's
going to burn in hell
and they want to be free of it and so
there are a lot of Americans who are
very attuned to that train of thought
and and so she has a point
she has a point interesting that's a
amazing perspective Dimitri and it's
something that I think is it's it's lost
on Americans as you're saying the these
kernels of truth are winding their way
into the you know the minds of people
but it's difficult because it's an it's
not anything that's being pushed or
identified by the West or reported on by
the West and as you said it just seems
that Russia's the most evil that Russia
can do to America is it it seems to want
to be Russia and work in its own best
interests
personally I would expect any country to
do okay so here we go we're going to do
another clip again villainizing Russia
I'm going to share our screen
Republicans becoming further and further
apart they hold off on 2016 and it tells
us a story aside that's encompassed the
most successful covert action and in the
history and it's more fun it's not
something they did because they're
really
their jobs they're mine nothing's right
right Russia has a GDP of Italy New York
City holistically has more GDP higher
duty than Russia Russia is a nobody
they're not in their care about almost
their care but when they tell us estates
these day is something extraordinary
once again it's belittling the economy
of Russia however talking about their
intelligence agencies and the strength
of their intelligence agencies and how
they're influencing the the vote their
ability to do that it's not their GDP
it's it's it's there in their evil
Specter risk intelligence agencies well
just let's just brush off the the point
about the New York City GDP being higher
than Russia it's not if you look at the
numbers the New York State not just New
York City but the New York State GDP is
1.5 trillion Russia's is one one five
six trillion but again you have to
calculate it based on purchasing power
parity factor which is 25 so you have to
mut live Russia's GDP by 25 and then
that ends up fifty four point six
trillion so it's relatively huge
compared to both New York City and the
entire New York State now as far as most
successful covert action and in human
history well a lot of people have a lot
of trouble to admitting but you know the
result of the election is the result of
the failure of the liberal elite in the
United States to produce results that a
majority of the people would find
acceptable so they they went their own
way and the Russians didn't have to lift
a finger
not that they needed to I think I think
the Russians at that point were pretty
much resigned to having to deal with
Hillary Clinton and and were pretty well
equipped to do so it didn't really
affect them in any particular way who
would be President
the fact that Trump became president for
them was probably not the best outcome
because Trump is incredibly
unpredictable and the way the the
Russian Foreign Ministry works is they
like predictability they like expertise
they they they want to be able to see
into the future and if you have this
loose cannon in the White House that
doesn't really help matters for them so
they weren't really interested in
getting Trump elected at all were taken
by surprise by surprise but now that
it's happened it's a really funny joke
to him okay and that was dr. Vince
Hooton he heads the Spy Museum in wash
here in Washington DC
well he's a she should put himself on
exhibit his data's kind of belongs in a
museum too well it's funny because that
seems to be his reference point both he
advanced the reference points are all
the Cold War and we've moved on I'd like
to think from that well great I'm going
to go ahead into our next clip those of
the world's two defenses of the world in
a conversation for
cold and 1/4 with antique or tummy
Lauren and I just kind of there's no
such thing that doesn't exist but it's
become poor lexicon because politicians
we have a combats work and people look
at the enemy well you know my enemies
foreign intelligence agencies mining is
not be people in for trouble I think
there were food in many respects Peter
not Miami that's the problem we run into
it's opened us up to this kind of a
corporate action and we're gonna be in a
position in 2020 and 2024 because we've
done nothing to stop it and the only way
we are going to have anything to stop it
is by coming together and agreeing that
or enemies outside of our country it's
not somebody from Kerala from Washington
it's okay sherry there so once again the
vilification of Russia is is Russia the
enemy of the United States Dimitri
well no it's it's not the neighbor's dog
who ran through the house and you know
tipped the table with the kool-aid on it
you know that kind of a useless thing to
keep saying and and and that's not very
helpful what's happening in the United
States states now is that the elite that
has been running the country for a
really long time sort of the the power
behind the throne if there is one has
split in two it has fractured hmm and
these people are at each other's throats
now and the way they're used to dealing
with the rest of the world is they're
special they can they can do anything
they can commit war crimes and get away
with it but everybody else has to do
what do as they're told or they're
terribly abilify dand bombed into
submission destroyed whatever and
anything goes but now that they're at
each other's throats they're bombing
each other into submission and the rest
of the world I guess can roast
marshmallows if they want to
or look the other way if they can't bear
to watch but it's not going to help the
United States to say oh let's blame
Russia for what we're doing to each
other you know that's that's a
ridiculous
just completely mentally retarded
approach it's it's it's kind of like
this kindergarten thing you know it's
the neighbor's dog that ran through the
house and tipped over the kool-aid okay
that's what they're doing it's it's
tragic and as you said it's not helpful
domestically because we have a lot to
sort out the citizens of this country we
have a lot to sort out with each other
and to say well the reason we can't have
a discussion on immigration or on the
economy or on race because Russia's up
there stopping us no worse I think that
was brilliant what you said Dimitri
we're the ones stopping it and we seem
to be okay with that because I think
Hooten that maybe it's common something
well you know politics is now war know
in America politics is a team sport
you're either on one team or the other
team and it's your team winning it's not
about having a discussion it's not about
looking objectively at candidates and
you know it to me that's the that's the
tragedy right now because the stakes are
really high for us we when you look at
for instance the national debt well the
federal debt is 23 trillion now but if
you look at all the states all the
localities the unfunded mandates it's
over a hundred and twenty five trillion
dollars we can't pay that back we're our
industries sitting overseas everything
our money our wealth goes overseas or it
goes in the hands of just a few people
these are serious issues and we just
don't seem to want to grass them you'd
rather believe that there's a boogeyman
out there creating all this well yes I
mean there are a lot of structural
things that Americans need to address
they have a country that exports what
you're a typical 19th century
European colony would export things like
soybeans corn wood pulp scrap metal
garbage used to be a big export now
there are no takers piling it's piling
up we don't know what to do with our
recyclables in the city I love it
that's right yeah and burning it is too
too high-tech at this point and nobody
knows how to do it and and of course
services are a big export that you know
services are one of those things that
can pretty much go away in a hurry and
and then there are these gigantic
structural trade deficits with countries
like China is an important one Russia
has a huge trade surplus - with the rest
of the world that's mostly with with the
European Union but what countries like
Russia and China the trade surplus
countries are doing is they're no longer
investing it in American debt there are
no longer buying up Treasuries instead
they're lending that money out to other
developing countries and that's Justin
Ellis death for for the the entire
absolutely because the countries have to
pay back that debt in dollars if they
accumulate it in dollars yeah that's
never a good thing they have to pay back
$1 to Russia and China which is which is
the real real part of the horror show
and so instead of you know not only is
the US a major debtor but the creditors
are now owned by somebody else and so
Americans have to understand that
they've basically spent spent their
fortune well into this century that
it'll take them many decades to crawl
out of that hole and that they will have
to crawl out of that huh if we ever can
recently I read the book silk road's and
he was talking about how all the silver
that Spain mined and stole from the
Americas
over 25% of it round its way into India
and China because they would buy
products from them and within three
generations of that enormous amount of
wealth Spain was defaulting on its debts
the the empire crumbled Spain is still a
backwards country in a number of
respects it's certainly not it was the
world hegemon for a period of time and I
just see how we've done with again the
offshoring of our industry all of our
wealth going abroad and we seem to think
with dollar diplomacy that we're going
to keep this thing going I think we're
in for a rude shock and again it gets
back we were saying earlier it's not
some boogeyman it's not Russia it's what
we do to ourselves we exported our
industry abroad that was a conscious
decision we seem to think that by the
propaganda that there were jobs that
didn't have an economic right to exist
yet everyone seemed to be happy to get
those jobs yeah well there's a huge
conversation to be had in American
politics which is help how can people
remain decent and useful to each other
given the dire circumstances that are
going to occur and that's just not
happening no it's it's not because what
happens when all of a sudden everything
becomes very scarce finding a decent
meal becomes an issue having water
having systems like sewers sewer and
transportation systems that are working
we look at California for instance it
the state has over 40 million people in
it yet the infrastructure was built for
20 million
there hasn't been any significant
changes to its infrastructure in decades
and yet that's because a more populous
or spa demands on the system and we're
seeing these rolling blackouts homeless
like every time I will be back in Los
Angeles early next month and every time
I go back they I just I just see more
and
or more homelessness I see more and more
this crumbling of the infrastructure you
know you look below the huge buildings
that are going up in downtown Los
Angeles and the sidewalks are crumbling
the water mains are breaking this house
is this a facet of collapse in a way
Dimitri maybe this delusional thinking
in addition to what we're actually
seeing unfold before our eyes well yes
the sky skyscrapers are sort of the
fruiting bodies of a fungus that's
eating the country that's how I look at
it they're the mushrooms Oh too funny
okay well our next clip is we there okay
so is she justified in calling people
out on their hypocrisy on the panel
Dimitri yes
changing the subject slightly let's talk
about Billa roost Billa Russia it's
right next to Russia and Ukraine it
doesn't have diplomatic relations with
the United States and the reason is
because it doesn't want a united's yeah
a United States embassy on its soil
guess what the reason for that is what
is that it doesn't want to have its
government overthrown see if you don't
have a United States embassy on your
soil your chances of having your
government overthrown in some kind of a
violent revolution are pretty much nil
things are under control but the moment
you get you let those American
quote-unquote diplomats in it you know
things become definitely shaky I'd have
to say when the American diplomats come
it along with our NGOs we have a number
of non-government organizations there
are people that and I'll say the name
George Soros that operate organizations
that practice a form of
extraterritoriality and seem to try to
influence events in sovereign countries
that may be against their own best
interest yes well Russia and China
basically have fully staffed departments
that are preparing cases that are used
to been various Western NGOs so the
Atlantic Council got banned in Russia
recently and Ariel Cohen who keeps
appearing on Russian television as a
commentator who used to be basically
identified as working for the Atlantic
Council the moment that happened he
liked switched like this and suddenly he
was a bloomberg columnist really funny
you know it's funny when I look at
reporters journalists today it's almost
like to get a paycheck they know what
will and won't fly these days when it
comes to the merit because someone was
asking well is there a power that's
orchestrating I say more
probably they know what will and won't
get published they know it will end up
and you know commanding to a pay day or
not
so yeah I guess everyone's just looking
for that check in a way yeah who needs
censorship when you have self-censorship
right that standard the u.s. is the most
censored country in the world
absolutely okay this is interesting
where they went once again they are
talking the rebut to the woman from RT
her name is Scottie Nell Hughes and
their rebut was this oh well let me go
ahead and share our screen again I still
I gotta say I'm overwhelmed with
technology it's it's it's amazing we're
able to do this you're in Moscow I'm
here in the US KGB officer
by the Russian state Federation that
funds Russia today which means that
light of your Putin is ultimately
signing your paycheck you set up news
organizations in the United States to do
the same thing okay
this you know what I can tell you
something right now us journalism is not
funded by the United States government
directly and the oil companies are the
biggest supporter so you never seem to
that oil cut in any NPR PBS show the oil
companies always have the last word yeah
Arthur Daniel Midlands right Archer Dale
Midlands and hey Monsanto or
bear now you want it you want to get
away from genetically modified foods and
get on the organic not a chance because
at the end of the day you're always hit
with like you're saying a DM that's
right and if anybody at NPR tries to
push a story that is contrary to what
any of those major companies like to see
they get a fax immediately and it gets
stopped so that that level of censorship
is is real and it's actually like very
very heavy-handed but in terms of
funding you know Voice of America is
funded by the United States it's it's
basically you know part of the it's part
of the federal budget there's a radio
station echo of Moscow that's partially
funded by by the United States BBC of
course is funded
it's you know it's a propaganda outlet
for the British government
Deutsche Welle which also broadcasts
into Russia is funded by the German
government that is not a nun typical
thing a lot of countries that have a bit
of spare cash invested in soft power
which is broadcasting their version of
the news into countries of their choice
and and the United States is probably
the biggest spender in that category
because not only do they spend on their
official broadcasters like Radio Free
Europe which is basically a CIA front or
Voice of America but they also through
their various NGOs funnel money to
bloggers and the media personalities and
and give a bit of money to various
students to teach them what they want
them to learn and and and they make
their inroads in a lot of other little
ways that are definitely not aboveboard
so saying that well no we have free
media well first of all it's not free
secondly that it's not sponsored by the
government well no it is sponsored by
the government so again I'll turn out a
fact
yeah and it's I was just having a
discussion last night with someone we're
looking at trying to do a blank possibly
do a boycott of this one company for
their their practices their labor
practices and their abusive employment
visa programs and you never hear boycott
anymore because it's so effective it's
but you don't I mainstream media will
not let you interfere with a big
companies flow of cash and mm-hmm so we
don't and it's a boycotts are amazingly
effective but we're we're the unions
with them where are these groups that
are supposedly advocating for change
just say hey I'm not going to buy my
stuff from ABC company and get a hundred
thousand people do that you change
things overnight but we don't seem to be
able to do that simply because it's
effective I made that point a long time
ago you you're not allowed to say things
that will put people off their shopping
yeah absolutely stat do movement recall
a mutual friend of ours James Howard
Kunstler he made this statement and I
use it all the time he said don't ever
allow anyone to call you a consumer
you're a citizen because citizens have
not only rights but obligations and
responsibilities to each other to their
communities and I think that's a
brilliant way to put it but it seems
that and again I guess it goes back to
the title of your latest book they
either want us to get be cows or they're
milking us for our cash and when that
ends we just get hauled off to the
slaughter block and denied health care
so then off we go no longer there to
feed the system ok the next clip Dimitri
is this is kind of like that Russian
people nice Putin bad the Russian people
kind of want him out narrative I will go
ahead and share our screen
[Applause]
it's very easy when we say Russia to
think everybody versus Russian
government and there is actually a verb
in diplomacy that we use called
track to diplomacy or public diplomacy
and that's all about how people connect
with each other the Russian people have
been activated and urging free and fair
elections their own country well there
you go go ahead and stop so what did you
think Dimitri well let me tell you a sad
sad story about Russian liberals
think that we call them the
one-percenters here because they never
get more than 1% of the vote
except maybe in Moscow and st.
Petersburg and the rest of the people
are sick and tired of them and just want
them to go away
in terms of Putin Putin's popularity it
it it's consistently high it's much
higher than any US politician there's a
lot of support for him people really
feel that he's on their side that he
he's he's struggle sometimes but he does
whatever he can for them they have much
lower opinion of members of his his
government both Medvedev's cabinet they
really they really don't see how these
people are executing the plans basically
they're not Putin gave them a bunch of
orders and they're not they're dragging
their feet they're failing in a lot of
ways they're in the process of them are
in the process of getting fired for it
that's kind of an interesting
development but the people don't really
like the various ministers they don't
really like the bureaucracy and that's
very traditional in Russia Russians
would ever like their government
they do like their leaders some of the
time the new development in Russia is
that in a lot of regions the people
really really like their governors their
regional governors a lot of them are
young there are new recruits and they
are a lot of them some of them are in
jail because they screwed up they're in
jail for corruption for long long
sentences that has happened to the
process of sending officials to jail is
an ongoing one in Russia you know old
habits die hard that sort of thing but
there's a new development which is that
there are regional governors that are
quite powerful and quite popular with
the people that get things done there
there there
very impressive men and women and that's
where the next generation of leadership
is going to come from I will start
bubbling up from the this local level
into the regional into the national yes
at that that's probably what's going to
happen and you know when people ask me
what's going to come after Putin I tell
them what's going to come after Putin is
more Putin except by a different name
the same style you know same substance
just different name because he's been
basically bringing up cultivating this
next generation of leaders which by the
way was the glaring failure of well flee
of the Soviet elite they they they
couldn't find replacements for
themselves they all died of old age and
the best I could do is get Gorbachev and
who turned out to be a traitor destroyed
the country and and so that's that's a
hard-learned lesson that's not going to
be repeated but in terms of driving a
wedge between the government and the
people from an American perspective well
that's just clueless
you know like go grow some vegetables or
something you know you know take up
macrame don't don't mess with
international politics if that's if
that's what you have to offer right and
frankly
it goes without saying every local
politics is where the rubber hits the
road that's the thing that you can see
you can see if your trash is being
picked up or not you can you bump into
you know in the small city that I live
in I bump into the mayor and the mayor's
chief of staff all the time at events so
and you can talk to them and communicate
with them and you feel more and
franchised I guess great well here we go
this is I thought this next clip is
going to be interesting because the
thing of it is Russia is not an ordinary
country there's something very special
about Russia here we go
Spanish shared and relations with it
takes a country that recognizes
international borders that has some
semblance of respect for human rights
and as some respect economic
productivity of its citizens steal from
them in order to have a normal
relationship with that country and I
don't have a great answer other than the
fact that we should be supporting it so
in Russia and we should be publicizing
the extreme kleptocracy of their leader
who is that we have is the ability to
use the voice of America to the world
they are they are so Wow well first up
do the Russian people want everything
they see in the west of matric no just
the things they like and they have them
already so they put they drive cars that
look like Western cars except that they
were made in Russia in Russian factories
biii actually drive a Russian
motorcycles oh ok that's very cool but
you can you can now buy a Russian
Mercedes you can buy any brand car
pretty much made in Russia and not just
assembled but the components as well
they make the engines here now too you
go to a shopping mall here and all of
the brands from around the world are
represented all of the ones that the
Russians like so the Russians have
pretty much built up their own version
of Western capitalism right here except
Russian style to suit their needs and
and they don't need any convincing
really lots of signs in English and
and that that's pretty much standard
fare here at this point now in terms of
this narrative that you know guten as a
thief and Russia is corrupted oh and by
the way the woman who said that her name
is Jennifer Rubin she's a journalist
she's also a neoconservative so that's
where she's coming from
well yeah yeah well it doesn't matter
where she's coming from it's it's just
as this narrative that they keep pushing
and that they keep putting money behind
it and it just keeps falling over
because the fact is that since Putin
came to power the fortunes of Russians
just normal everyday Russians not the
elite have doubled quadrupled
many times people Russians are living
longer happier and healthier lives now
than at any time in Russian history what
average life expectancy for a Russian
today to make sure 1717 yeah yeah I mean
there's still a lot of problems here but
but didn't you I I recall in your book
reinventing collapse one of the things
that happen is life at when a society
collapses life expectancy goes down
actually we're seeing that here in the
United States for males life expectancy
is going down and what what is that an
indicator of I wonder yes well enforced
hopelessness I think is a form of
genocide but that's the way I look at it
you don't have to actually like gas
people you can just steal their hopes of
having a normal life for themselves and
their children
and they will they will die they will
overdose they will drink themselves to
death that's what's happening in the
United States now that's what what's
happening in in Russia in the 1990s an
entire cohort drank themselves to death
and Russia is no longer even in the top
five heaviest drinking countries in the
world now you know the leader now is
Lithuania I've been with the land yeah
it's it's actually one of the most
graffiti country
until maybe that's indicative of what's
going on and in fact I went on a tour
one day and ended up at a bar with the
tour guide and several of her friends
the bartender for instance had a law
degree but couldn't there's no place for
her to practice and the despair you know
they're just saying you know this is
what I make this is what rent costs what
fuel costs with this there's just no
winning you know here and you can kind
of understand why this begins to happen
the county that I live in the morgue is
always full and isn't overdoses yeah I
guess but but not much of that happening
in Russia anymore in Russia the new
thing is a healthy lifestyle gym
membership set and all are at an
all-time high you know personal trainer
is a hip profession these days women are
all off to yoga and Pilates classes and
you know everybody's trying to get fit
especially the young people the young
people are strikingly fit hardly any
obesity at all so if you look at the
population has just had healthy happy
contented mostly contented which you
can't say about the United States at
this point so trying to claim that well
you're doing very badly because Putin
stole all of your money and the reason
you should believe this is because we
gave a whole bunch of money to this guy
in Nevada me who who organized underage
kids into some kind of a protest
movement you know people are so sick of
that so this this one Ruben you know
she's just again she's kind of becoming
a fossil you know she's a laughing stock
we we know what her game is we know
where she gets the money she should cut
it out just cut her losses and do
something else you know it's interesting
I wasn't there for but the next day
Sunday at politican
Malcom Nance was up on a stage with with
a few other people and he was doing the
Russia Russia Russia thing and a large
group of people started to shout walk
away walk away I mean I could hear it in
the next room and so that tells me that
the article I wrote I took a thing from
each his poem where the falconer can no
longer hear the the Falcon can no longer
hear the falconer and I think that's
where American society is going
yeah well mance is a specific type of
person who just loves the sound of his
own voice but can't learn anything new
to say so he just keeps going on and on
and on that's that's what that's how he
strikes me so our last clip Dmitri is
going to be I think it's Hooton who
talks about some historical perspective
on Russian borders and the West so I'll
go ahead and share that now
and for some of the stories there
self-defend the story the camel as I'm
sure they're not not insulting or you
are sorry as you all aware during World
War two we actually teamed up with
Russia to fight the Nazis rightfully so
looking back do you think it could have
been possible for us to not be permanent
enemies with the Soviet Union because
just the height the only priority before
war Simon to make sure that they all
knew customers say we're never going to
do because we recently shared
destruction we chose to fight them we
chose to make an enemy out of them
Germany declared war on us arrested nots
it could be have just gone forward
comrade this is what George Kennedy was
asked in 1947 by George Kennan the
famous American diplomat who was the one
that the Americans people like Gary
Furman at the same question he did why
in the world of these guys trying to
push back it actually reached out our
hands to the Soviet Union after World
War two it's a joint
the old banks in fact we took a
internationalisation atomic weapon or
they even had them themselves and they
said no no was it yet yet yet and it
turned out they have to pen and wine
Kenan said what I'm going to talk about
before was it was apparent rushing this
other Soviet even the idea that the
legitimate government needed to have a
foreign boogeyman and for Stalin that
maintain the power that is now a twenty
five million less old population to the
industry that was necessary oh there we
go
well to start with an illegitimate
government needs to have a foreign
bogeyman that is called projecting the
shadow if you make something you don't
like about yourself and you try to pin
it on to somebody else because it turns
evil States vilified in Russia the way
Russia's vilified in the United States
to reach me well no I mean first of all
Russia is full of American culture
that's full of Disney there's a Disney
Channel that kids watch a lot of
cartoons or American cartoons there's a
lot of clothing that is basically from
American designers there are now
international brands but they started
out as American Hollywood films
everybody knows Sylvester Stallone
everybody knows the Terminator he's a
popular one here in fact he showed up
here for some kind of like a training
seminar you know I'm sure our arnold
showed up in st. Petersburg to teach
seminars you know how to be yourself how
to be the Terminator you know that so
the Russians are totally into that now
in terms of politics in terms of how the
government behaves there's a definitely
a different perspective and it used it
used to be very favorable in the 1990s
where people were convinced that America
was the model at that point a lot of
people went over to the United States a
lot of Emma Gray's came back to Russia a
lot of people went to school in the
United States and came back and then the
attitude shifted because the Russians
actually realized what
the United States what life in the
United States is really like well that's
funny you say that when I was a few
years ago I was in Poland and I was in
krokov and the guy leading our bicycle
tour had lived in the Bay Area San
Francisco Bay Area for a few years and
he moved back to Poland he said all I
did was work in America I mean here I'm
back I don't make a lot of money but I
have my friends the food is good the
lifestyle is good yeah
so I've noticed that so yeah so the
Russian speak and choose but in terms of
you know picking and choosing
american-style democracy at that point
that will just make people laugh like do
you want the democracy like America has
now are you kidding
are you out of your mind who would want
that you know what legalized corruption
where I can bribe you with a campaign
contribution who know it doesn't stop
them you know that the whole impeachment
thing is you know there's a play-by-play
for that on Russian television and it's
a comedy show so no thought of it that
that dog don't hunt you know don't don't
try to don't try that in Russia
it just it's going to go nowhere really
really fast but in terms of Russia you
know being this place that Americans
can't deal with well the thing about
Russia is that it wants to be treated as
an equal it does it's not going to play
second fiddle to the United States it's
not going to listen to the net the
United States and not be listened to
that is also a non-starter and that's
something that American Washingtonians
aren't able to accept they basically
they are at their ideas you show up you
tell people what you want them to do
either they do it or they don't if they
don't and you sanction them if they
still refuse to do what they want what
you want them to do then you start
bombing them now with Russia it's sort
of like
it's it's sort of like a you know
irresistible forced moves you move
object they keep smashing their
foreheads against Russia and then
wondering what the hell is going on and
what's going on is that Russia is very
different from most other countries it
never attacks other countries but it
always wins the wars
once it gets attacked always without
exception and it takes its defense very
very seriously you know it has huge
territory it has all the resources it
needs and it will defend them and if
anybody tries to get at those resources
without paying them well they'll end up
paying more that's all that's going to
happen is they'll still buy resources
from Russia because there's nowhere else
they can get them but they'll be more
expensive and the Americans just can't
learn that lesson
yeah well Dmitry I really appreciate
your being here today with me to review
those clips because I gotta say when I
was watching this panel in Nashville all
I could think of what would Dimitri say
to this what would the Patriots think so
I'm glad we were able to do that today
Dimitri before I begin closing down
today's podcast how can people get a
hold of you how can they reach you
oh well you know my my email address is
actually hanging out there on my blog if
you look for contact that's probably the
easiest way to contact me personally
also there's a lively discussion usually
of whatever I post on patreon and
subscribe star which are the two
platforms where where I blog and I
really recommend everyone subscribe to
your blog the insights are amazing well
thank you I mean several months ago when
I was trying to make sense as to why we
would put an armored battalion into
Lithuania you made a comment because
it'll give the Russians something to
shoot at I
that was because that's like there's no
strategic or tactical significance to
this why are we doing it they're
surrounded cut off it just doesn't make
a lot of sense but you know I do a lot
of insights well there are a lot of
things that the Americans do that are
basically just to justify printing and
stealing more money they print money
they steal money but they have to have
some kind of activity to justify that so
why not move troops to Lithuania why why
not give money to Elon Musk to build his
star hopper which explodes on the
launching pad you know at least there's
something happening so they cuddled
together this thing right made of
aluminum and plastic and it blows up
well look they did something so print
some money and give it to us yeah and
that's that's which people operate these
days in the United States if you have a
printing press if that's the only
equipment you have left and what do you
do and that that's tragic to make sure
it actually makes me sad because at the
end of the day we Americans are getting
used every year things seem to get a
little bit worse economically in terms
of our quality of life
our expectations I said just on customer
service are going down and down in town
we're getting paid less working more and
I'm saddened I love my country I I one
of the lucky few when I walk outside my
door I live in a place where we have a
walkability score of 99 out of 100 I
love the city I live in I'm proud of the
county and the work citizens groups do
there but I'm saddened I'm saddened
because we are not things are not
getting better as you had mentioned in
Russia you know years things do seem to
be getting better know what nowhere is
perfect the grass is never greener but I
think we as Americans need to look at
these narratives this propaganda that's
being forced on us 24/7 then the biggest
culprits are these cable news channels
I'm hoping that people will begin to
wake up slowly and perhaps it'll happen
slowly but I'm I would imagine surely
because the reality just it's just
inescapable at this point
well well once we once we hit ten
percent penetration that's all it'll
take good one once we display is ten
percent of the audience wonderful there
you go
well Dimitri thanks so much for joining
me today and to our listening audience
if you like this podcast please give us
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heavily on funding but we do when I get
the word and the messaging out well
Dimitri thanks again for joining us
thank you
this was great wonderful Cheers
[Music]