XHQ BR 24/07/17

24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« on: July 24, 2017, 10:13:16 pm »
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Doctrine: Pulse Abbadons
Fit Modified?: No
Goal: CTA (Defense)
Date: 24/07/17
Formup Time: 19:00
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 Offline [P.T.B] AllMappedOut
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #1 on: Today at 06:55:27 am »
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-2 gold upkeep per turn for military units. Dank social policy
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 Offline [P.T.B] Jin'taan
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #2 on: Today at 04:09:42 pm »
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So, rather than start at the fight here, I'd like to spend a moment thanking the allies who turned up in order to help us tonight, with BRAVE & FCON both turning up in our aid with respective BC fleets, and RR once again taking the initiative to form a massive BC gang to help despite the language barrier. They all spent the majority of the fight trying to tip the balance of the Capital fight, and did remarkably well with it.

Anyway. This op was something I had hyped up for a while, as I had hoped to see where we lay in terms of capital participation and readiness. It's been something we've been attempting to work on since the start of this war, as we simply cannot win a straight subcap fight with PL, due to the power of Machs - and the cost and sourcing issues (not to mention training issues) that make it difficult for us to bring the mirror doctrine and trade. And you guys did us proud. PL had to bring pretty much all they had to the field to compete, calling on all of their allies in NC., PHEW and WAFFLES, along with reshipping everyone who died and possibly could into a Dread and throwing them right back into the grinder. It wasn't quite the 100 Dreads I'd aimed at a month or so ago, but we are on track for it. I hope that people see now that we are nearly there, and with a few more pushes, we can be a capital force to be reckoned with - and we can make any fight hurt. Make sure to replace your dreads, with Revelations being the current priority for large engagements like this.

The amount of pilots we had put into capitals did have it's toll on the subcap numbers however, with us looking at roughly even mainfleet vs mainfleet numbers when facing PL. 117 Machs on their side, vs 120 Abbadons on ours. We had eyes on their cap numbers however, and believed that if NC. (who would have to take another mid to get in range) didn't want to commit to a very dangerous grid, we would be able to leverage our capital forces onto whatever PL Fauxes remained and leave us with control of the field due to our superior T2 Logi numbers.

As such, I made the decision to engage PL's fleet close to the tethering range of the fortizar, for a few reasons. It would force PL to engage us away from where the dread fight would occur, meaning that they would have to extract messily if they wished to leverage their neuts in the larger cap fight (I - possibly wrongly - felt that PL's Machs would have had a greater impact than our Abbadons in the actual cap fight, due to cap issues we've had in the past). In addition, it would mean that the hand of bombers NC. had shown (roughly 40) wouldn't be able to bomb us from all angles, necessitating a wave approach that we could better use our Confessors and Svipuls to kill.

The first action of the engagement was pretty blunt, I headshot their main FC, Hedliner - and told our Logi to prepare for a counter headshot attempt. With their Fauxes being uncommitted to the grid, this would be the only chance we had to successfully kill him, and hopefully it would allow us to force mistakes from PL line members in the confusion, as they have successfully done from us in the past. This was partially successful, however PL has a glut of secondary FC's to choose from, and without spies on their comms, I had no idea who would take over in his stead, and as such I went for another Machariel.

At this point, the battle was truly being joined, with us dropping the first wave of dreads on their pausing fleet, and PL bringing in Fauxes to save their Machariels in the subcap fight. As our dreads switched over to the Fauxes, letting us kill the first, PL counter-escalated with their own dread forces, making us bring our own to bear as we were halfway through the second Faux. Here, a critical moment of miscommunication between myself and our Cap FC's occured, as I should have re-affirmed staying on this second Faux to quickly kill it before the dread exchange truly kicked off. However, I did not do so, and wasted critical time shooting at a Faux we had little hope of breaking when we could have been shooting at subcap targets and potentially nuking them before reps could land.

After this, the kills really stalled out for us in the Abbadon fleet. I made the mistake of calling targets by name on comms - which made the fight a lot easier on our opponents logistics - and also calling primaries _and_ secondaries. As such, I wasn't able to get a proper rhythm of target calling going for some time, getting Machs to roughly half armour before cycles landed. It was only after I had organised BRAVE/FCON and set them to work in the capital fight that I realised what I was doing wrong, and swapped to a very basic, slow form of calling. Unlock everything, one target at a time, no name called. Everyone locks it at roughly the same time, everyone fires at roughly the same time, pray that the second cycle of our Pulses lands before reps do. And, for a while it worked, with us killing what few other Machs we could here, before we lost critical mass to do so. One interesting fact about this is that even though we only killed 7 Machs, and lost roughly 75% of our Abbadons, the Subcap ISK war is nowhere near that bad, with us killing 6b of Machs and losing 20b of Abbadons. Had I called better for the middle part of the fight, we could have gone ISK even.

By this point, I knew that the subcap fight was irrevocably lost, so I began to make moves to extract us, and planned for us to re-enter the fight in a less committal doctrine (Cerbs) in order to inflict more Capital damage if possible without feeding more to the Machs. We aligned up, we burned out of bubbles, and we shot what Dreads were in range in co-ordination with Brave/FCON, killing a Pheonix on the way out. As I had been webbed/neuted/scrammed the entire fight, I handed command over to Gabe to get us out as best he could (and he did a great job of it).

However, TiDi meant that we couldn't get our ducks in a row fast enough, and once we reached sub 10 caps on field, I stood us down. As soon as our Subs extracted, PL had committed a small compliment of Titans and Supers in order to reduce the damage inflicted to their capitals as much as possible, which is the reason the relatively even up until that point cap fight slipped away from us.

Final tally by my eyes is 180b killed, to 280b lost. BR here.

Lessons Learnt/Mistakes Made;
I did not change the Mids of the Abbadon in order to better fight Machariels. Given how we fought, Grapplers and even the TC were fairly useless. Minmatar ECM, TD's, Damps or even TSBs + SeBos would have been vastly better midslot options. This is something I will simply need to improve upon.
Calling whilst co-ordinating is very, very hard. I should have had an FC take over target calling for me so I could concentrate on moving and talking.
Killing PLs Subcap Fauxes should have been a higher priority, and as such I should have brought more Armageddons to do so. Mirroring the tactics of the 18th but with greater support would have given PL even bloodier of a nose.
Cap groups not being organised in an easily communicable manner is still a massive problem. YF was only able to bring a single Dread to the timer, from what I know due primarily to their cap pilots being unaware of the fact that we intended to use them.

I hope people re-arm, and replace their Dreads. If they were insured, the individual cost isn't too bad, especially with SRP. I also hope people see this and realise that yes, you training into a dread 100% does matter to the future of this coalition, and the security of its assets.
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 Offline [P.T.B] Roke Breau
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #3 on: Today at 05:18:19 pm »
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 YF was only able to bring a single Dread to the timer

Why the fuck did they not switch to them when we dropped / switched fleet since they are all stored very closeby....
or
look at the providence channel that i know alot of them are in
or
maybe mr rounon dax could mail his members a forum link since hes in providence / fc / and leadership channels.



so triggered.......

i know its harsh, and il probably get an earful but ffs its YOUR OWN SPACE.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:32:05 pm by [P.T.B] Roke Breau »
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #4 on: Today at 05:26:52 pm »
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Quote from: [P.T.B] Roke Breau on Today at 05:18:19 pm
YF was only able to bring a single Dread to the timer



And a FAX that had some IRL stuff come up at the exact same time. But we are painfully aware of our current lack of EUTZ cap pilots and are addressing it as aggressively as possible. We know.
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 Offline [P.T.B] Roke Breau
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #5 on: Today at 05:49:47 pm »
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 :)
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #6 on: Today at 07:25:32 pm »
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Sorry to say but feeding Capitals to PL is absurd. We will lose most of the Caps no matter how well we do. PL will deploy their super caps to win the fight if they have to. So in the end, in order to defend a 13b asset, we lost 280b. And again this would not be a problem if we ever had any chance to actually save it. But we didn't and we don't. Not against the 2 super power houses working together for the same objective.

Not saying we shouldn't deploy caps in every occasion we have, but not against PL+NC... wich can easaly deploy +200 Titans/Super Carriers if needed/bother.
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 Offline [P.T.B] Roke Breau
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #7 on: Today at 07:44:40 pm »
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If people got into ships instead of rolling over we might not feed. We should try it sometime

or we could role over play dead and bleed members, that should be fun to.
« Last Edit: Today at 07:49:38 pm by [P.T.B] Roke Breau »
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #8 on: Today at 07:56:29 pm »
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Quote from: [TLOS] DeadDuck on Today at 07:25:32 pm
Not saying we shouldn't deploy caps in every occasion we have, but not against PL+NC... wich can easaly deploy +200 Titans/Super Carriers if needed/bother.

I see you do not know what Jump Fatigue is. It would take them two ~2h long move ops to get supers in range and the whole universe would know about it, as they currently are using these to protect their assets in the North. NC.'s are in M-O and I believe PL's are somewhere near PH's space.

EDIT: And, TBH if PL deploys supers down purely to deal with little 'ol Provi, I think we've done damn well for ourselves. That's what it took to purge TEST/CO2, who are alliances we should be looking to judge ourselves against.
« Last Edit: Today at 08:00:15 pm by [P.T.B] Jin'taan »
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 Offline [P.T.B] Lasker Emanuel
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #9 on: Today at 07:59:12 pm »
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Quote from: [TLOS] DeadDuck on Today at 07:25:32 pm
Sorry to say but feeding Capitals to PL is absurd. We will lose most of the Caps no matter how well we do. PL will deploy their super caps to win the fight if they have to. So in the end, in order to defend a 13b asset, we lost 280b. And again this would not be a problem if we ever had any chance to actually save it. But we didn't and we don't. Not against the 2 super power houses working together for the same objective.

Not saying we shouldn't deploy caps in every occasion we have, but not against PL+NC... wich can easaly deploy +200 Titans/Super Carriers if needed/bother.

We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analyzing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will.
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 Offline [TLOS] DeadDuck
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #10 on: Today at 08:19:09 pm »
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Quote from: [P.T.B] Jin'taan on Today at 07:56:29 pm
Quote from: [TLOS] DeadDuck on Today at 07:25:32 pm
Not saying we shouldn't deploy caps in every occasion we have, but not against PL+NC... wich can easaly deploy +200 Titans/Super Carriers if needed/bother.

I see you do not know what Jump Fatigue is. It would take them two ~2h long move ops to get supers in range and the whole universe would know about it, as they currently are using these to protect their assets in the North. NC.'s are in M-O and I believe PL's are somewhere near PH's space.



Jin they are down here for how long already ? 1-2 months? They had all the time in the world to move whatever they wanted to move. Yesterday they deployed in the end of the fight 2 Erebus and 1 Revenant. You really think they jumped there without any backup available, in case something would go wrong?

Anyway it's my 2 cents.

Peace 0/
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 Offline [W.A.S] lordmopp1
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #11 on: Today at 08:37:24 pm »
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Quote from: [TLOS] DeadDuck on Today at 08:19:09 pm
Quote from: [P.T.B] Jin'taan on Today at 07:56:29 pm
Quote from: [TLOS] DeadDuck on Today at 07:25:32 pm
Not saying we shouldn't deploy caps in every occasion we have, but not against PL+NC... wich can easaly deploy +200 Titans/Super Carriers if needed/bother.

I see you do not know what Jump Fatigue is. It would take them two ~2h long move ops to get supers in range and the whole universe would know about it, as they currently are using these to protect their assets in the North. NC.'s are in M-O and I believe PL's are somewhere near PH's space.



Jin they are down here for how long already ? 1-2 months? They had all the time in the world to move whatever they wanted to move. Yesterday they deployed in the end of the fight 2 Erebus and 1 Revenant. You really think they jumped there without any backup available, in case something would go wrong?

Anyway it's my 2 cents.

Peace 0/

Do u mean more back up than the 10 faux, 30 dreads and the won fight?

Those Titans and supers just came in to whore on as many killmails as possible when they already won the fight
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #12 on: Today at 08:46:52 pm »
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Quote from: [W.A.S] lordmopp1 on Today at 08:37:24 pm
Quote from: [TLOS] DeadDuck on Today at 08:19:09 pm
Quote from: [P.T.B] Jin'taan on Today at 07:56:29 pm
Quote from: [TLOS] DeadDuck on Today at 07:25:32 pm
Not saying we shouldn't deploy caps in every occasion we have, but not against PL+NC... wich can easaly deploy +200 Titans/Super Carriers if needed/bother.

I see you do not know what Jump Fatigue is. It would take them two ~2h long move ops to get supers in range and the whole universe would know about it, as they currently are using these to protect their assets in the North. NC.'s are in M-O and I believe PL's are somewhere near PH's space.



Jin they are down here for how long already ? 1-2 months? They had all the time in the world to move whatever they wanted to move. Yesterday they deployed in the end of the fight 2 Erebus and 1 Revenant. You really think they jumped there without any backup available, in case something would go wrong?

Anyway it's my 2 cents.

Peace 0/

Do u mean more back up than the 10 faux, 30 dreads and the won fight?

Those Titans and supers just came in to whore on as many killmails as possible when they already won the fight

Most probably, but trust me where there are 3 super caps from PL there are more. And with Provibloc showing they are ready to deploy their caps in massive numbers there will be even more.
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 Online [EMBIN] Fraan Anbee
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Re: 24/07/17 - La Leveé en Masse - 19:00
« Reply #13 on: Today at 11:22:50 pm »
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only for info,
i look in zkill for the aktive (pvp) supercap-pilotes of the last 3 month from PANFAM (PL,NC,PH)

Titan's: 139
Supercarrier's: 239

i do not say, they are all in jumprange and i think sure not.
but that is what PANFAN CAN bring if needet, maybe more.

but, what ever.
the question is, can PROVI replace this kind of losses fast?
and can we replace it over and over and over, that is what we need to do if we think we have to "piss with the great boy's on the schoolyard"
on there conditions.

don't misunderstand me was a hype to see that FROM PROVI, but again PANFAM it will allway's end in a "Pickett's Charge"