[18:26] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: It probably does not count as politics but history
[18:27] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: But the wiki article on the last king of China's Shang dynasty, English wiki's article actually follows the questionable Chinese historical depiction closer than the Chinese article
[18:30] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Since the earliest records about Di Xin's tyranny does not really look that unreasonable from a modern point of view
[18:30] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: If anything it makes him about the most enlightened monarch in Chinese history
[18:35] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Which basically boils down to "he listens to woman and non-aristocrats advisor, and does not rely on divination to policy-making"
[18:40] Weis [Free Cities]: Nice?
[18:41] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Yeah
[18:42] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Di Xin's defeat happens while his army was vassalising the eastern tribes, where Zhou, a vassal of Shang in the west, decides to backstab Shang with the southern vassals
[18:42] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: After Zhou defeated and succeed Shang it proceed to try conquering said southern vassals and the eastern tribes
[18:43] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: The southern vassals decide to go "wtf m8" and stayed independent of Zhou pretty much for its entire history
[18:43] Weis [Free Cities]: Fuck Zhou
[18:44] Weis [Free Cities]: treasonous vassals ruining dynasties
[18:44] Weis [Free Cities]: Ugh
[18:45] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Zhou also probably used slaves for human sacrifice instead of prisoners of war, and banned woman from most official positions
[18:46] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Zhou also relied heavier on rule of human and virtues instead of rule of law which seemed to be more prevalent during the Shang dynasty
[18:46] Weis [Free Cities]: Huh
[18:46] Weis [Free Cities]: Did Zhou last longer than Shang
[18:47] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Probably
[18:47] Weis [Free Cities]: sad
[18:47] Weis [Free Cities]: traitors deserve a quick death
[18:48] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Shang lasted about 500 years while Zhou technically lingers for almost 800
[18:48] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Although for the most part its influence outside the demesne was limited
[18:48] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: And the last few centuries had it pretty much boiled down to a rump state amidst the warring princes
[18:49] Weis [Free Cities]: Glorious
[18:49] Weis [Free Cities]: !
[18:51] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Although Shang's central government was probably not very strong either
[18:51] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: As before Zhou conquered them many of the vassals of Shang pretty much do their own things
[18:52] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Then again a strong central government was not really a thing until Qin dynasty
[18:52] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Which incidentally also was marred with infamy until modern histography shows that it was quite phenomenal
[18:53] Weis [Free Cities]: Ming best because we only did a paragraph about Ming in school
[18:53] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Ming was actually pretty crappy although not necessarily its own fault
[18:54] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: But by virtue of it preceded by Yuan which pretty much destroyed the old Chinese administrative system and replaced it with the Mongol system which was terrible in ruling a non-nomadic state
[18:55] Weis [Free Cities]: Mongols always ruining stuff
[18:56] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Which is one of the reasons why while Song dynasty was still arguably one of the most advanced civilisations in the world at its time
[18:56] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Late Ming because so dismal that it had to rely on Jesuit missionary to fix its own agricultural calendar
[18:56] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Since the gap in knowledge had become so wide that it had trouble feeding its own people
[18:56] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Although the Black Death might also have something to do with it
[18:57] Weis [Free Cities]: interesting
[18:59] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: In general modern histography has pretty much subverted many of the traditional views on which dynasty was better and which was worse
[18:59] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: And seems to have an abnormally consistent trend of it being in reverse
[18:59] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Where dynasties traditionally deemed better tend to be worse in modern view
[19:02] Weis [Free Cities]: which one is the worst then
[19:03] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Depends on what you mean by the worst
[19:03] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Though in modern view it is probably a toss-up between Zhou, Jin and Ming
[19:04] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Well I guess there is always Yuan but that is more a foreign subjugation than anything
[19:04] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Although the same could be said of most dynasties after Zhou
[19:04] Weis [Free Cities]: Zhou it is then
[19:07] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: In general Chinese dynastic succession shows a fairly consistent trend of it being conquered by then-barbarians before the conquerers merging with the subjugated "Chinese" to update its identity and culture
[19:07] Weis [Free Cities]: conquerors integrating with the subjugated people seems to happen in an a lot of cases
[19:08] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: It is easier to rule that way
[19:08] Weis [Free Cities]: we need a channel for all these generic conversations, #shitposting won't do(edited)
[19:08] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: #general
[19:08] KAMELÅSÅ (Sjealand): ^
[19:08] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: I think out of all dynasties the only true homegrown dynasties are the Jin and Ming(edited)
[19:08] Reno Lam [Tuthina]: Which is not exactly a good sign considering they are also among the worst dynasties in retrospect
[19:11] Weis [Free Cities]: oh well