So Tears - ivy & Ax vs Echo & Pie

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue  2015

 *	Now talking on #cantr
 <iavatus>	http://forum.cantr.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27404
 <iavatus>	Reading are hard, echo?
 <EchoMan>	Walls of shit is hard to read, yes
 <iavatus>	Well, at least that's an honest response from GAB, for once.
 <EchoMan>	Just focus on something that actually makes you feel better (whatever that may be)
 <iavatus>	But glad you can respond so quickly when it's unimportant. Did what, during the rapeman cycle?
 <iavatus>	Did what, during the banning?
 <iavatus>	Done what, in the last two months?
 <EchoMan>	Pls show me where it says -I- have to do anything for you
 <iavatus>	Anyway. Hope you're feeling better, and all things are good. But this has been 3 months of just blaaargh.
 <EchoMan>	Pls show me where it says GAB has to act within a certain timeframe
 <EchoMan>	Pls show me where it says you can make demands at all on staff or the game
 <EchoMan>	Pls show me where it says I have to stand your rants and care about them and/or act upon them
 <iavatus>	Demands? No, no demands. Just pointing out some very serious flaws in the current culture.
 <iavatus>	You can act, or not. You're an adult.
 <EchoMan>	Daesh is a problem with current culture. Put your anger towards that
 <iavatus>	Just don't expect me to sit by when something I enjoy is being treated fairly brutally, by simple apathy.
 <EchoMan>	You have no clue, still
 <iavatus>	Huzzah. You just Godwinned the argument.
 <iavatus>	Appeal to worse problems, not a technique.
 <EchoMan>	You ASSUME a lot of things, and the more you type the more obvious that becomes
 <iavatus>	No, I draw educated conclusions, from the actions and what you yourself have posted.
 <iavatus>	I clearly stated that.
 <EchoMan>	And I am now not having this discussion any more. Feel free to cut and paste your selected parts of this discussion into a new forum rant or whatever... i couldn't care less¨
 <EchoMan>	You're just another troll
 <iavatus>	have I done that? Ever?
 <EchoMan>	And I don't have the energy ...
 <iavatus>	No, but feel free to act vilified, for whatever reason you muster.
 <iavatus>	Although I do like how just troll is thrown about, like it means something. When I've clearly done my best to try and work with GAB on this, to no avail.
 <iavatus>	So, all the best, eh.
 <EchoMan>	You work your best...?  Ever heard about being constructive instad of playing blame game and wildly assume things and present them as facts?
 <EchoMan>	Seriously, this isn't good for my blood pressure...
 <EchoMan>	:)
 <iavatus>	<quote>This is how it used to and should be. We are still not sure what failed in tha current situation, and that's why we dont respond so much, yet. </quote>
 <iavatus>	So, 2 months later, no communication is how you yourself, think is an adequate measure?
 <iavatus>	Cause, I keep giving rope, and space, and time, and it's just ignored.
 <EchoMan>	If you try to be less aggressive and assumptous, perhaps a fruitful outcome would be possible. Giving rope.... Óò   are you for real?
 <EchoMan>	You have no claims on Cantr staff...
 <iavatus>	Cantr staff? You mean, people who are supposed to do stuff?
 <iavatus>	Cause, no stuff has been done. At all.
 <iavatus>	Maybe in the backrooms, but nothing has been shown, or visible. Which means, nothing has been done
 <EchoMan>	And how would you know that?
 <iavatus>	 /j #circlejerk
 <EchoMan>	You know nothing
 <iavatus>	(Jon Snow)
 <iavatus>	Here's what. Nothing has been stated. Nothing has changed.
 <iavatus>	Thus, nothing has been done. QED.
 <EchoMan>	"Nothing has been stated" <--- that's one fact you have got right. COngratulations
 <iavatus>	Anyway. You're about the only staff who bothers to talk, so thanks for that.
 <iavatus>	But it's the monkeys who don't, we have a real problem with.
 <EchoMan>	WHo are "we"?
 <EchoMan>	Seriously....
 <EchoMan>	Disbelief
 <iavatus>	Oh, lets see. The people who have a problem with the cantr staff culture?
 <iavatus>	Cause, it's got some serious flaws.
 <iavatus>	Which I keep pointing out.
 <iavatus>	And nothing happens.
 <iavatus>	So, y'know. That's a flaw itself right there.
 <iavatus>	Which vote option did you choose? :3
 <EchoMan>	So since you have decided that some things are flawed, they are defacto flawed?
 <EchoMan>	I don't give a shit about your poll
 <iavatus>	Yes. When staff are being bullied, when players are being bullied, there's a flaw.
 <EchoMan>	Of your "facts"
 <iavatus>	When legitimate concerns are ignored, there's a flaw.
 <EchoMan>	So we shouldn't ban cheaters?
 <iavatus>	When the powerbase is centred on one person, with no accountability, there's a flaw.
 <iavatus>	Ahh, but you don't. You ban people who are claimed to be cheaters, but ignore the knights, entirely.
 <EchoMan>	Cantr has a constitution which I believe is followed
 <EchoMan>	Your claims doesn't have much substance.....
 <iavatus>	Beliefs are great. Facts and reality, slightly differ.
 <EchoMan>	YOU think thatthings should be handled in a certain way. That doesn't equal that things actually should be handled in that way. It is your opinion, and have nothing to do with the reality of the game
 <iavatus>	Godwinning "When such an event occurs, the person guilty of invoking Godwin's Law has effectively forfieted the argument. " QED
 <iavatus>	So, you're okay with Seko being bullied?
 <iavatus>	With Axiom being bullied?
 <iavatus>	That's, acceptable behaviour?
 <iavatus>	Cause, it ain't. At the core, that is such unnecessary and pathetic behaviour.
 <iavatus>	There is literally, no call, no justification, no excuse.
 <EchoMan>	Seko had it coming. She wasn't bullied. Can't go into details but she abused some tools she had access to. Axiom cheated.
 <iavatus>	And yet, it's cool if it's stated to be such, from the powerbase.
 <EchoMan>	And these are FACTS that I have access to
 <iavatus>	No. Just no. Bullying is 100%, never ever, acceptable.
 <EchoMan>	So again, you are just assuming a lot of things where you have no idea...
 <iavatus>	And any justifying, is simply bullshit
 <iavatus>	No, you're assuming I don't have information. That assumption, is the wrong one, matey.
 <EchoMan>	Well... go fight some windmills, I am tired
 <EchoMan>	You have possibly a very small part of the facts
 <EchoMan>	But far from all
 <Pies>	iavatus: short question
 <Pies>	grr
 <iavatus>	I have the important one.
 *	Pies removes channel operator status from Pies
 <Pies>	why I had again op
 <iavatus>	Yo, Pies?
 <EchoMan>	lol.... just lol
 <Pies>	iavatus: from where you "got information"?
 <iavatus>	Nope, sorry. In confidence, but generally from the source.
 <EchoMan>	The little clique surrounding Axiom of course
 <iavatus>	Is that anything like the cronies around Pilot?
 <iavatus>	Cause, Kendo.
 <EchoMan>	Who was a chreater, and as such always tell the truth, yes  ;)
 <iavatus>	Where did he come from? Where did he go.
 <iavatus>	Cause, he just rocked up, banned people, then fucked off.
 <iavatus>	To be called next time a sockpuppet is needed.
 <iavatus>	And yet, he's still on staff.
 <EchoMan>	First off, Kendo is female, knowitall
 <iavatus>	That's .... acceptable to you, as well?
 <iavatus>	I couldn't give a rats about his gender.
 <Pies>	I like both Seko and Axiom, but I wouldn't trust anybody about if somebody abused tools or cheated - nor Pilot, nor Axiom, nor Seko, nor EchoMan
 <iavatus>	One, Ax never cheated.
 <EchoMan>	lol
 <iavatus>	Two, Seko was bullied.
 <EchoMan>	There are proof of that
 <iavatus>	Three, Ax was bullied.
 <iavatus>	Y'know, really?
 <EchoMan>	Of course Axiom will say to you that she didn't cheat, but I see the proof
 <iavatus>	Why cheat, the information that's useful is so easy to get in char.
 <iavatus>	Rock up, spend a few days in the town, then see how it goes.
 <Pies>	iavatus: what proof you have?
 <iavatus>	Hrm? Of what? Of Ax being bullied?
 <iavatus>	Of Seko being bullied?
 <EchoMan>	Exactly... why cheat. Good riddance with cheaters that get banned.
 <iavatus>	Cause, it's fairly fucking ovious.
 <Pies>	of not cheating/not abusing tools?
 <EchoMan>	Just shut up already. You have no facts¨
 <iavatus>	...... cause it's not necessary?
 <Pies>	it isn't proof
 <iavatus>	Seriously, you're going to claim every pirate raid is cheating?
 <Pies>	I love pirates
 <iavatus>	Cause, that says something about you, Echo, not anyone else.
 <EchoMan>	No, I don't usually discuss case details
 <EchoMan>	Take your head out from your ass for a moment....
 <iavatus>	Bring it back to the core issue. Ax & Seko. Bullied.
 <iavatus>	Is that acceptable.
 <iavatus>	Simple question.
 <Pies>	I hate bulling people who are giving their free time, that they aren't giving it enough
 <EchoMan>	Not bullied.
 <EchoMan>	And you can at most have ONE side of those stories.
 <EchoMan>	You don't have FACTS and you shouldn't discuss like you did
 <EchoMan>	It gets very tiresome
 <iavatus>	Yeah. 1 post in a month.
 <EchoMan>	Having to defend against your assumptions
 <iavatus>	I'm very sorry for trying to get staff to do their jobs.
 <iavatus>	Instead of just, acting like everythings fine.
 <EchoMan>	Oh ffs
 <EchoMan>	Your just throwing shit at the fan
 <iavatus>	Unfortunately, there's a big pile of shit.
 <iavatus>	Delivered by staff actions.
 <iavatus>	SO yes, that's why it's there.
 <EchoMan>	If you had any interest at all of helping the game you would do some constructive things, instead of attacking us the way you do.
 <iavatus>	I have offered, so many times.
 <iavatus>	I was on staff.
 <EchoMan>	lol
 <iavatus>	"This Department handles very delicate and sensitive information that needs to be treated with the utmost confidentiality and respect since affects the game of the players, and your behavior in recent events against the staff has been the reason to conclude in a lack of confidence on you to handle this information from a viewpoint totally objective and confidential."
 <iavatus>	At no point in this, has PD been delicate, sensitive, confidential, respectful, objective. So, that's a whitewash. I at least, am up front about where my opinions lay. The figures behind this, can claim no such honesty.
 <iavatus>	I repeat.
 <iavatus>	When was staff respectful, objective, delicate, sensitive.
 <iavatus>	Cause, like hell they were.
 <EchoMan>	When was staff NOT ...
 <EchoMan>	?
 <EchoMan>	Easier question to answer
 <Pies>	00:57:06          iavatus | I'm very sorry for trying to get staff to do their jobs.
 <iavatus>	So, once again. As fantastic an argument as saying "You should help, instead of pissing in the tent", when the tent is only open to Pilot cronyism, it's not an argument.
 <Pies>	you shouldn't be one doing this
 <iavatus>	Well, nobody else is.
 <iavatus>	Certainly not the staff themselves.
 <iavatus>	And this has been going on, for 3 months.
 <Pies>	so sit on irc
 <iavatus>	And 2, I've left you alone to do it. And yet, no action has been taken.
 <EchoMan>	No, for many years
 <iavatus>	......... that's even worse.
 <EchoMan>	You don't know that
 <EchoMan>	You don't have the FACTS
 <Pies>	some time ago I saw Jos here
 <iavatus>	http://pastebin.com/vysm5Zs6
 <iavatus>	yes, that's the conversation we had.
 <EchoMan>	So it gets kind of tedious reading your crap when you present it like you have facts. You don't
 <iavatus>	He basically said, *shrug* meh.
 <Pies>	one single person who is over gab, is Jos, and only him
 <iavatus>	Nov 24 08:52:38 <jos>   I genuinely don't have time for that at all
 <EchoMan>	S`?
 <EchoMan>	SO?
 <Pies>	iavatus: so it is in hands of people he trusts
 <iavatus>	So, as great as it is having jos above the powerstructure, when he can't, then it comes back to the staff to not just put their head in the dirt.
 <EchoMan>	Just like all other staff, Jos doesn't HAVE to act within a fixed timeframe
 <iavatus>	Nope, he doesnt' say that.
 <iavatus>	He simple says
 <iavatus>	Nov 24 08:57:35 <jos>   yes, Ivy, and the staff members that are accused of the most wrongdoing - whether reasonable or not - are also the ones that put most effort and time in their staff role
 <iavatus>	So, that's not a rousing endorsement.
 <iavatus>	That's him saying facts.
 <EchoMan>	:)
 <Pies>	iavatus: simple question
 <iavatus>	Shoot.
 <Pies>	iavatus: do you believe, that anybody will want to do as you say after you will throw shit everywhere?
 <EchoMan>	This isn't going anywhere. You are so determined you are right and everyone else is wrong. Have fun...
 <iavatus>	They sure as hell won't do a single thing when left alone.
 <iavatus>	So, asking politely hasn't worked.
 <iavatus>	Being left alone, hasn't worked.
 <iavatus>	Maybe pointing out the months of complete apathy, will at least annoy someone enough to bother to do their job.
 <iavatus>	And I do mean job.
 <Pies>	so create better game?
 <Pies>	you wont
 <EchoMan>	It is your main purpose in life to get the volunteer staff of a browser game to work like a clockwork?  :D¨
 <iavatus>	You don't get to volunteer and act like it's not your problem when it goes mental.
 <EchoMan>	I actually feel a little sorry for you :)
 <iavatus>	One message in a month? That's a long clock.
 <Pies>	you will rather annoy them enough, so they will vomit while looking at game and go do other things
 <EchoMan>	Wtf are you talking about now?
 <iavatus>	I feel worse for you. You condone bullying, and rapeman.
 <iavatus>	So, we're even.
 <EchoMan>	Just shut up with that bullying stuff.  You have no idea¨
 <EchoMan>	You have Axioms and Sekos statements
 <iavatus>	No, I have the effects, and causes, and words.
 <EchoMan>	And that's rather far from the complete scenario
 <iavatus>	So, bullying is justifiable?
 <iavatus>	You're okay with that.
 <iavatus>	That's kind of odd.
 <EchoMan>	Are you insane?
 <Pies>	iavatus: point me to bullying
 <EchoMan>	Any medications you forgot about?
 <Pies>	but let it be short, because I'll be going
 <iavatus>	That's another good GAB response, Echo.
 <iavatus>	How's your own meds?
 <iavatus>	Okay, briefly.
 <iavatus>	Ax gets told to stop, desist, etc.
 <iavatus>	She does so using an OOC statement.
 <iavatus>	Instant lock.
 <Pies>	iavatus: point me to something I'll be able to see
 <iavatus>	Then weeks of ignoring her request for information.
 <iavatus>	How about the messages from Pilot to Ax?
 <EchoMan>	She was given an ultimatum from staff, which she ignored. <-- FACT
 <Pies>	not tell me story how you remember and heard it
 <iavatus>	Especially the punishment at the end
 *	iavatus points to thread.
 <Pies>	iavatus: message would be great. As long it would be proofable, it was really from Pilot and wasn't modified.
 <iavatus>	So, her punishment for one infraction, one.
 <EchoMan>	One?   Did you suddenly get access to GAB  forums and read her case?
 <iavatus>	Was basically to never be able to do anything piratey to anyone from Treefeather.
 <EchoMan>	You know nothing. You don't have facts.
 <iavatus>	Was never to use the radio
 <iavatus>	To have only 4 chars, etc etc etc
 <EchoMan>	Just stop, you're embarrasing yourself now
 <iavatus>	Just a long list of things that make the game into a chore.
 <iavatus>	Well, that's good. I don't embarass easily.
 <iavatus>	Or at all.
 <Pies>	iavatus: so create better game? With better staff?
 <iavatus>	Again, simply to force her out of the game, out of the staff.
 <Pies>	cantr is old game with old engine made with old technology
 <iavatus>	And that's a constant point. If you don't like it, leave.
 <iavatus>	I *do* like it. I want to make it *better*
 <iavatus>	Burning it down, ain't the way
 <Pies>	I believe, that monopoly is always bad
 <iavatus>	Like, say, one person having all the power, through cronies?
 <EchoMan>	You attack staff in an attempt of making the game better.... interesting...
 <iavatus>	I attack the rotten core, yes.
 <iavatus>	Cause you can't build greatness on shithouse foundations.
 <iavatus>	It doesn't work.
 <Pies>	iavatus: I understand, that game so complex as cantr can't be perfectly menaged
 <iavatus>	More staff would help.
 <EchoMan>	Well, you can obviously write very long forum posts on that base... ;
 <Pies>	I know, that even some talks one to one aren't possible to go well
 <iavatus>	But staff are chased away.
 <iavatus>	Staff are bullied.
 <iavatus>	Staff are ignored.
 <EchoMan>	Shut up already ...
 <EchoMan>	You have no idea.
 <iavatus>	And then investigated. For no reason, just vague suspicions.
 <EchoMan>	You have no facts
 <Pies>	iavatus: so create competition
 <iavatus>	New record, Echo. We've established already I do.
 <EchoMan>	No you don't
 <Pies>	you can't force people to do what you think they should
 <EchoMan>	You THINK that you have facts, but you only assume a lot of things
 <Pies>	but you can make game which will run as you would like
 <iavatus>	, The Players Department has reviewed your case and come to a decision. We are willing to let you resume playing, but with restrictions to prevent the sort of unfair situations we have seen in your gameplay.
 <iavatus>	You`ll be restricted to playing only 2 characters for a probationary period of 6 months until have demonstrated the sufficient grasp of the rules and what is and is not allowed. You`re allow to keep one violent character, you may choose between Lyra Halifax and Clarice. Neither may target any characters in the region of Treefeather island, nor can they be involved with any of the Olip group on behalf of whom this mess was started.
 <iavatus>	We will also allow you to keep your character Marion, as long as she remains in the Haven/Sanctum region.
 <iavatus>	Radio use will also be restricted for a period of three months. In addition to only playing your characters apart, we need you to understand that you may not coordinate any game activities with your friends. You are also not allowed to discuss PD cases with other players nor in the forums.
 <iavatus>	If during the probationary period you fail to comply with the restrictions described and with the Capital Rule and its directives, additional measures might be taken to ensure the fairness in your gameplay.
 <iavatus>	Please let us know which character should be removed from the game, and that you understand and will comply with the directives described in order to proceed.
 <Pies>	go one, I'm willing to help you with servers if you will need it
 <iavatus>	Now, how in the name of hell is that not forcing someone out, by micromanaging.
 <iavatus>	Bear in mind, this is after weeks of asking for information, with a locked account.
 <iavatus>	And this only came out after I started kicking in the forums.
 <iavatus>	So yes, I did have to kick until staff did their job. And such a pissy job it is too.
 *	You have been kicked from #cantr by EchoMan (case discussions are between the player and the PD, not public domain)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue  2015

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue  2015

 *	Now talking on #cantr
 <Ivy>	That's adorable.
 <Ivy>	You ask for information.
 <Ivy>	And then whine when you get it.
 <EchoMan>	I didn't
 <Ivy>	Now, I have permission from Ax to talk about this.
 <EchoMan>	You fail to see the simplest of facts again
 <Pies>	Ivy: I asked, and I asked for something what is proofable
 <Ivy>	The only person being protected, is poor sad Pilot
 <EchoMan>	You don't have permission from PD
 <Ivy>	You have been kicked from #cantr by EchoMan (case discussions are between the player and the PD, not public domain)
 <Ivy>
 <Ivy>	Good for PD. They should welcome the chance to clear the slate, instead of skulking.
 *	You are now known as iavatus
 -NickServ-	This nickname is registered and protected.  If it is your
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 >nickserv<	identify ****
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 *	NickServ sets mode +r on iavatus
 <Pies>	iavatus: that rule was always when I was playing
 <EchoMan>	Now you know what PD does...
 <Pies>	iavatus: and it wasn't proofable anyway
 <iavatus>	Kickban after asking for precisely the information you were given
 <Pies>	and I didn't saw in it anything bad
 <EchoMan>	Muppet!
 <iavatus>	Should I ask Ax to forward you those emails?
 <EchoMan>	I kicked, Pies asked for info
 <iavatus>	Yes yes. You're very clever Echo.
 <iavatus>	have a lollipop.
 <EchoMan>	I seriously believe you need to get that med now... or get laid ... or something :p
 <Pies>	she got limited chars and got restricted from one region, that's all
 <iavatus>	So professional.
 <Pies>	iavatus: nope, it wouldn't be proofable too
 <iavatus>	Then what you're asking, is for magic beans.
 <iavatus>	I can't give you magic, so it's not worth the beans.
 <Pies>	as well I could you forward mail from Obama saying how I'm great
 <iavatus>	Well duh.
 <iavatus>	That's obvious.
 <iavatus>	So, what would satisfy such stringent conditions?
 <Pies>	iavatus: I asked for proofable bulling
 <EchoMan>	You seem to use magic a lot, presenting your "facts"
 <Pies>	posts on forum?
 <iavatus>	Cause by that logic, any PD communication can be rewritten by PD to show only the PD side.
 <EchoMan>	lol
 <Pies>	signed messages would be great, but I don't believe Pilot is cappable of it
 <EchoMan>	Tin foil hats anyone?
 <iavatus>	Signing? Or writing?
 <iavatus>	Or english
 <iavatus>	Do be professional Echo. FOr once.
 <iavatus>	You've got your gab hat on, try to remember that.
 <EchoMan>	I'm not professional.... I volunteer for a free game here...
 <Pies>	signed - by cryptography
 <EchoMan>	Lol
 <Pies>	01:20:07          iavatus | Cause by that logic, any PD communication can be rewritten by PD to show only the PD side.
 <iavatus>	Then there's nothing I can show, that's not publicly viewable already by you, Pie.
 <Pies>	iavatus: for most yes
 <Pies>	but it works in both ways
 <Pies>	any PD communication can be rewritten by rule breakers to show only rule breakers side
 <iavatus>	Ahh, but I have no access to PD forums, GAB forums.
 <Pies>	neither do I
 <iavatus>	Then it's an impasse. Pilot can claim anything, do anything, and every staff member must tacitly allow and agree with his behaviour.
 <Pies>	iavatus: nope
 <iavatus>	Because that's how it's set up.
 <EchoMan>	Stop being such an imbecil :)
 <iavatus>	Imbecile.
 <EchoMan>	lol
 <Pies>	as far I know any cases which staff members, specially controversial ones are discussed with rest of GAB
 <iavatus>	Not to mention that any time I post on the forum about any of this, I'm directly in the line of fire for another kickban.
 <iavatus>	With no recourse.
 <iavatus>	No oversight.
 <iavatus>	No reason.
 <iavatus>	Just, allowable.
 *	EchoMan yawns.
 <EchoMan>	getting old again.... de ja vue all over again
 <EchoMan>	No typo-remarks on my French?
 <iavatus>	The thing about a discussion, is if it's with your sock puppets, it's not really a dialogue.
 <iavatus>	I don't know french.
 <iavatus>	It's a monologue.
 <EchoMan>	Oh... something you don't know. Thanks for shaing this unique moment
 <iavatus>	It's one person deciding, having a rubber stamp discussion, and then decision is final.
 <iavatus>	ANd nobody gets to know why, or how, or what.
 <Pies>	iavatus: nope
 <iavatus>	Or even what they are accused of, really.
 <Pies>	iavatus: this one person could be only Jos
 <iavatus>	Who doesn't play, or forum manage, or have the time.
 <iavatus>	In his own words.
 <Pies>	yeah
 <Pies>	so all gab decides, not one person
 <Pies>	whole gab*
 <iavatus>	The *only* way we know such about Ax's case, is because a staff member, acting against the powerbase (in his words, as the good cop), gave such details.
 <iavatus>	Is that acceptable? To basically accuse anyone, of anything, decide the punishment, and then have it punishable to even reference it.
 <Pies>	Pilot, EchoMan, GreeK, Faith and rest I don't remember
 <iavatus>	After all, 4 people got banned, and only one of them (me) really talked about things in detail.
 <iavatus>	The others agreed, and plus onned.
 <iavatus>	Again, is that acceptable?
 <EchoMan>	Are you talking about the forum bans now?
 <iavatus>	Faith, hasn't logged in in yonks. I've got messages for her, that haven't been touched in months.
 <iavatus>	Greek doesn't enjoy the forum managing and PD stuff, afaik.
 <iavatus>	So, that leaves Pilot, and nameless cronies.
 <Pies>	iavatus: guess why he doesn't
 <iavatus>	I wouldn't either.
 <iavatus>	And yet, here I am.
 <iavatus>	Month 3. Still kicking because there's no action done.
 <Pies>	yeah, you're making them shitty
 <EchoMan>	AM I nameless cronie?
 <iavatus>	My apologies.
 <Pies>	but still, GreeK does take action when he is needed
 <iavatus>	I'd hate to make someone have a bad day.
 <iavatus>	Like, oh, weeks of being ignored.
 <iavatus>	Of being accused, by staff and Sanchez, of being a dirty dirty rulebreaker, publicly.
 <Pies>	he gives much more time to game then it deserves
 <iavatus>	(Fuck Sanchez, btw. Either be on staff, or stop pretending to be 'just' a player)
 <Pies>	iavatus: so whole staff is corrupted and nothing can be done. Create better game with good staff
 <Pies>	really
 <iavatus>	Not a reasonable solution.
 <EchoMan>	tin foil hat
 <Pies>	why?
 <iavatus>	Who'd start up a game with 10 years of creaky cantr engine, without 10 years of hilarious creaky cantr history.
 <Pies>	I would love to play game which isn't so limited as cantr
 <iavatus>	Fucking Donii. How did that ever get off the ground.
 <EchoMan>	Someone with as much energy for the meaningless as you?
 <Pies>	iavatus: I didn't wrote "steal the code and host it by yourself"
 <Pies>	iavatus: I wrote "create better game"
 <iavatus>	heh. It'd still be better then something I would code.
 <iavatus>	10 Goto 20
 <iavatus>	20 goto 10
 <iavatus>	30 End
 <iavatus>	Wait
 <EchoMan>	Never reaches the end :o
 <iavatus>	11 Print "Hello world!"
 <iavatus>	That's about all I could do.
 <Pies>	iavatus: but Axiom as I know is able to code well?
 <Pies>	Seko if I recall was able doing something too
 <iavatus>	Yeah. Cause the way she got treated, she's going to sign up for another internet game to spend her time and effort on?
 <iavatus>	EIther of those ladies.
 <Pies>	and trust me, Jos, who started whole thing, isn't great programmer
 <EchoMan>	She abused her ProgD powers. And she wasn't bullied.
 <EchoMan>	And I have FACTS
 <EchoMan>	You have assumptions and guesses
 <EchoMan>	Which are really tiresome
 <iavatus>	3 months of not even bothering to attempt to talk to people? That's tiresome.
 <Pies>	iavatus: btw, Axiom was wrongly treated by you?
 <iavatus>	?
 <iavatus>	No, but once bitten, twice shy.
 <EchoMan>	Wait, are we back on the same arguments for the 3rd time now? No new shit to throw?
 <Pies>	you wrote, that she wouldn't want to create game with you?
 <iavatus>	Heh. I'd supply descriptions.
 <iavatus>	Any code would need to bascially be set on fire and thrown away.
 <Pies>	not moderation?
 <Pies>	so people would be properly judged?
 <iavatus>	Heh. Yeah, fair point. Having been on the arse end of it, I know I'd do a better job.
 <iavatus>	Actually talk, and communicate.
 <iavatus>	Not just be spanish and incomprehensible.
 <Pies>	so go for it
 <EchoMan>	Yeah, please
 <iavatus>	You realise he acted like touching the code was a favour to Ax, not a favour from Ax.
 <Pies>	I can help you with servers, I would play
 <EchoMan>	Getting tired of the slandering now
 <iavatus>	You've been tired before we started, Echo.
 <Pies>	iavatus: well it's because cantr isn't open sourced
 <EchoMan>	Guessing you want to be the marture here and earn your ban?
 <iavatus>	And could have stepped away, any time you yourself liked.
 <iavatus>	Go ride a bike
 <iavatus>	Martyr.
 <Pies>	and we had already problems with people stealing the code
 <Pies>	if game would be open source, it would simple, anybody could create code without even being in the staff, without whole procedure etc
 <Pies>	unfortunately open sourcing cantr rather isn't an option
 <Pies>	for security reasons for example
 <iavatus>	Aye, more programmers would be good, to fix and plug security holes.
 <EchoMan>	Sorry for not being a native English speaker....  I'm one of those horrible GAB people, Spanish and the likes
 <iavatus>	Shame that apparently programmers get extra special chased away.
 <EchoMan>	Stop lieing
 <iavatus>	You do alright, Echo. I wouldn't have guessed that english isn't your first language.
 <iavatus>	But an interesting thing, is all this requesting of proofs, proofs that simply can be changed or doctored or hidden.
 <Pies>	iavatus: problem is, that ProgD can destroy most
 <iavatus>	Not actually addressing any of my points, when I've done my best to respond to your own. But, all the best eh. Merry christmas and such.
 <iavatus>	Pies, remember the time all the dead came back to life?
 <Pies>	I do remember
 <iavatus>	Really, a backup system would prevent such wholesale database destruction.
 <iavatus>	Worst case, you lose a few days.
 <iavatus>	Best case, you've got people fixing and cleaning the code.
 <iavatus>	Instead of currently, when the progd is what, Greek?
 <Pies>	I also remember when ProgD member stole code and started creating his own instance
 <iavatus>	And a bunch of guys, including one who hasn't logged in since 2006.
 <iavatus>	That looks .... less then awesome, doesn't it?
 <Pies>	this is me?
 <Pies>	because I'm the one responsible for backups
 <iavatus>	:D
 <Pies>	back then I wasn't, but for last few years I'm
 <iavatus>	But wouldn't it be good to have a UI from 2008, let alone 2010?
 <iavatus>	I dunno. There's some more benefits to treating staff like people, instead of like potential criminals, in all senses.
 <EchoMan>	So now we moved on to "slander the ProgD" session? ;)
 <Pies>	it would be great, but somebody would have to create it, and people would cry, that this is no longer cantr
 <iavatus>	No matter how burnt you got in the past. Got ways to get around it.
 <iavatus>	People will cry about anything.
 <iavatus>	Butter, ffs.
 <EchoMan>	The UI is meant to be "classic"
 <Pies>	and maybe this is why staff memebers don't want to listen when you throw shit at them
 <iavatus>	Seriously. Staff kowtowed to crying about butter.
 <EchoMan>	^^^^^
 <iavatus>	Because it'd change one persons oh so intricate copy pasted recipe book.
 <iavatus>	That he spent seconds copying from the internet, into a note.
 <Pies>	at work I at least get paid. And never at work I never was criticized that server works too fast
 <iavatus>	Not sure of your point.
 <iavatus>	I haven't seen any work done, is mine.
 <EchoMan>	Now you are guessing/dreaming up things again
 <iavatus>	And the point of the post.
 <Pies>	iavatus: point is, that people like you make people resign from staff also
 <Pies>	I know ProgD members who were great and stopped creating anything because players were throwing shit at them
 <iavatus>	Sorry to hear that. Because I'm very sorry that having *slightly* mean words posted in a forum can penetrate such thin skin.
 <Pies>	or trying to order them
 <Pies>	it isn't
 <iavatus>	Yeah, well. I haven't done any of that, nor has any quit over this, afaik.
 <Pies>	many people (including me) aren't giving shit
 <iavatus>	So, not really relevant.
 <EchoMan>	As stated befoew, you know far from everyuthing ;)
 <iavatus>	Sorry. As far as I care, then.
 <iavatus>	Better?
 <EchoMan>	I'm actually considering quitting now...
 <iavatus>	Cause, there's a lot of people 'on' staff. There's a lot of people who haven't signed in in years. There's a lot of overlap.
 <EchoMan>	The last time I told Jos, he forced me to reconsider
 <EchoMan>	The forum doesn't equal the game
 <Pies>	iavatus: people doesn't quit because one person usually, but because many players giving them same shit over and over again
 <iavatus>	Then there's a few options.
 <iavatus>	Either fix the problem.
 <iavatus>	Or fix the problem.
 <iavatus>	Simple, no?
 <iavatus>	And again, this is three months.
 <Pies>	well, we aren't banning people because we don't like them
 <iavatus>	In the last 2, I've done about 2 posts about this. So, not exactly a huge flood.
 <Pies>	although I would love to do so
 <iavatus>	Ahh, I meant fix the problem that they're going on about. It's evidently a problem, if a lot of people are going on about it.
 <EchoMan>	 Cantr doesn't revolve around your post count iavatus
 <Pies>	alternative is quitting. Or not giving shit
 <Pies>	iavatus: problems are different
 <EchoMan>	Not a lot of people... a small well defined clique
 <Pies>	like, for many this game is "too hard"
 <EchoMan>	with ooc interests
 <iavatus>	Are we talking about Pilot cronies?
 <Pies>	they want free water, free honey, powerful radio and everything
 <iavatus>	They need a name. Oh I know. The spanish inquisition. There, patented and perfect.
 <Pies>	they are blaming you, when you create animals thet needs be feed
 <iavatus>	I agree Pies. The game is weird and wonderful.
 <iavatus>	If you changed all the things, it'd be a different game.
 <iavatus>	I ain't talking about the game.
 <Pies>	they are blaming you because motors need gasoline
 <iavatus>	I'm talking about the problems with staff, and staff culture.
 <iavatus>	Biiiig difference.
 <Pies>	and I'm talking about problems with players and players culture
 <iavatus>	Yeah, I also agree with that.
 <iavatus>	People are whiny shits, and want everything now.
 <iavatus>	And shiny
 <Pies>	players come and gone
 <Pies>	but staff keeps having to listen same shit over and over again
 <Pies>	so staff have to behave in way that it will allow functioning it
 <iavatus>	Apathy?
 <iavatus>	That's, not a method.
 <Pies>	or, you always have fto where is anarchy and no staff
 <iavatus>	nor is indifference, or procrastination, nor just going eh, and waiting for people to fuck off.
 <iavatus>	FTO is fucking awful.
 <iavatus>	Sidenote, what ProgD powers did Ax abuse.
 <iavatus>	Cause, as RD, I had the precise same one - could read staff forums.
 <Pies>	dunno, I'm not PD.
 <iavatus>	If it was true, I'd agree that's a serious breach. But without them, and with that on the accusation list, it again, puts a nice hole in the argument.
 <Pies>	but PD have more tools
 <Pies>	baack
 <iavatus>	But ..... she didn't have any powers.
 <Pies>	ProgD have more tools
 <iavatus>	So, she couldn't have used em.
 <iavatus>	Or abused em.
 <Pies>	after some time ProgD have all tools
 <EchoMan>	Axiom didn't abuse tools, that was Seko
 <Pies>	I'm not PD nor GAB, I wasn't reviving any case
 <Pies>	fuck
 <Pies>	it's late
 <Pies>	and anyway I didn't done things I really should
 <iavatus>	Then, what did Ax breach?
 <iavatus>	Accused of OOC coordination. Big fat lie
 <iavatus>	Accused of OOC communication, see previous
 <EchoMan>	You don't have facts
 <EchoMan>	Only her words
 <iavatus>	Attempted to follow unclear directives from PD staff
 <EchoMan>	And a cheater will always claim to be innocent
 <iavatus>	Was punished for following them as best she could.
 <EchoMan>	regardless of the proof
 <iavatus>	And a corrupt staff will always claim to be in the right.
 <iavatus>	Always.
 <iavatus>	And squish any resistence.
 <EchoMan>	Now thats slandering again
 <iavatus>	And silence it.
 <iavatus>	Like the bannings.
 <iavatus>	 <EchoMan>	She abused her ProgD powers. And she wasn't bullied.// You sure I'm the one slandering?
 <Pies>	iavatus: alternative is anarchy
 <iavatus>	Cause, you just said here that Ax abused her progD powers.
 <iavatus>	No, the alternative is get staff who aren't corrupt.
 <EchoMan>	That was in regards to Seko, and yes, I am sure
 <iavatus>	And yes, checks and balances.
 <Pies>	create game, get them
 <iavatus>	Trying t ofix this one.
 *	Axiom ([email protected]) has joined
 <iavatus>	More effective then reinventing the wheel
 <Pies>	you will always find few players who will say that you're corrupted
 <Axiom>	Hello! I don't really want to get involved in this again, but I heard a rumor that someone said something about me abusing ProgD powers?
 <Axiom>	I would like to state for the record that I never had access to source code or anything except the ProgD and RD forums.
 <EchoMan>	Axiom: Hi. Noone said that, it's iavatus who is misreading.
 <Pies>	because you was too harsh or you was too soft for somebody
 <Axiom>	Hello! Wonderful, I just wanted to clear that up.
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	Not a reasonable solution.
 <iavatus>	 <EchoMan>	tin foil hat
 <iavatus>	 <Pies>	why?
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	Who'd start up a game with 10 years of creaky cantr engine, without 10 years of hilarious creaky cantr history.
 <iavatus>	 <Pies>	I would love to play game which isn't so limited as cantr
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	Fucking Donii. How did that ever get off the ground.
 <iavatus>	 <EchoMan>	Someone with as much energy for the meaningless as you?
 <iavatus>	 <Pies>	iavatus: I didn't wrote "steal the code and host it by yourself"
 <iavatus>	 <Pies>	iavatus: I wrote "create better game"
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	heh. It'd still be better then something I would code.
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	10 Goto 20
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	20 goto 10
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	30 End
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	Wait
 <iavatus>	 <EchoMan>	Never reaches the end :o
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	11 Print "Hello world!"
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	That's about all I could do.
 <iavatus>	 <Pies>	iavatus: but Axiom as I know is able to code well?
 <iavatus>	 <Pies>	Seko if I recall was able doing something too
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	Yeah. Cause the way she got treated, she's going to sign up for another internet game to spend her time and effort on?
 <iavatus>	 <iavatus>	EIther of those ladies.
 <iavatus>	 <Pies>	and trust me, Jos, who started whole thing, isn't great programmer
 <iavatus>	 <EchoMan>	She abused her ProgD powers. And she wasn't bullied.
 <iavatus>	Sorry, hadn't mention Seko for a loooooong while before that.
 <iavatus>	so, you were talking about Ax.
 <EchoMan>	Are you going to flood a lot?
 <iavatus>	Just giving you a memory refresher :3
 <iavatus>	Reading are hard, after all.
 <Axiom>	Well, if he was talking about ProgD, I wasn't aware that Seko was on ProgD.
 <EchoMan>	I was not...
 <Axiom>	Also, if I wanted to make a Cantr clone, I would do it from scratch, not use an existing codebase with ten years of hacks piled on it. :)
 <Pies>	as I recall was, although in last time she was doing rather as RD
 <Pies>	Axiom: and this would be correct way
 <Axiom>	As for the allegations of cheating, have you read my case file? I misunderstood some rules, but I wasn't aware that I had cheated.
 <EchoMan>	[2015-12-22 01:32:46] <Pies> Seko if I recall was able doing something too
 <EchoMan>	[2015-12-22 01:32:59] <iavatus> Yeah. Cause the way she got treated, she's going to sign up for another internet game to spend her time and effort on?
 <EchoMan>	[2015-12-22 01:33:04] <iavatus> EIther of those ladies.
 <EchoMan>	[2015-12-22 01:33:07] <Pies> and trust me, Jos, who started whole thing, isn't great programmer
 <EchoMan>	talking about Seko
 <Axiom>	Anyway, it doesn't matter who said what. I just wanted to make sure it was clear that it was in fact impossible for me to abuse any tools.
 <iavatus>	Well, again. The impression was on Ax.
 <Axiom>	So as long as everyone understands that, great!
 <iavatus>	And, without an actual list of charges, it's impossible to say or defend against any accusations.
 <Pies>	copying cantr would terrible idea. Although I saw people copying cantr. With most insane things like 36 minutes per hour clock
 <iavatus>	Cause, they can change, as we've already established.
 <Pies>	iavatus: and mainly we don't have access to them
 <iavatus>	Cahnge, being code for maliciously rewritten to paint a certain light.
 <EchoMan>	With "we" you mean you?
 <iavatus>	No, Pies agreed with me here :3
 <Pies>	case is between PD and accused player
 <Axiom>	Yes, I'm sure the codebase is probably very bad, with all due respect to the people who've worked on it. Over the course of ten years with many different fingers in the pie, these kinds of things take on a life of their own and become bad in ways no single person is responsible for.
 <iavatus>	That details and communications can be rewritten to suit just about anyone.
 <Pies>	iavatus: and I agreed, that player can as well rewrite it
 <Pies>	tell what he want
 <iavatus>	Although I do find that a remarkably refreshing view, as most in game people treat logs as gospel.
 <iavatus>	Yep. And it's more beneficial to the PD staff to do that, then the player.
 <iavatus>	Player after all, has nothing to gain, only lose. Staff, well. They have gains, and losses, and reputation.
 <iavatus>	Such as it is.
 <EchoMan>	Now I enter a state of disbelief again ...
 <iavatus>	Is that near Texas?
 <EchoMan>	If only
 <iavatus>	What's the postcode.
 <Pies>	well, let's start from fact, that PD if only can, doesn't talk about cases with anyone beside player
 <Axiom>	Anyway, EchoMan, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't call me a cheater. I made a sincere effort to play by the rules and tried to contribute to Cantr in good faith. If I stepped outside of the lines, it was due to mistakes and misunderstandings on my part, not malice.
 *	cantrplayer_39 ([email protected]) has joined
 <Axiom>	I was actually still a very new player when my case happened. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have been allowed on staff without more experience with the game.
 <Pies>	02:09:02          iavatus | Player after all, has nothing to gain, only lose. Staff, well. They have gains, and losses, and reputation.
 <iavatus>	Aye, that's the important thing. Respect and commmunication, would have solved problems then, would have solved problems now.
 <Pies>	iavatus: players have much more to gain and loss
 <iavatus>	Nope. They only gain the right to have another charge levelled at them later.
 <Pies>	players can lose access to game or try use other players to force staff to restore it for them. And players have good name too. Nobody likes being called rule breaker
 <iavatus>	Not really a winning right.
 <iavatus>	I don't like being called a troll, but y'know, it happens. I don't cry myself to sleep every night.
 <EchoMan>	iavatus: So how come you repeatedly slander and disrespect the staff?
 <EchoMan>	If you believe in that?
 <iavatus>	Cause it's the first response anyone does these days.
 <iavatus>	Slander? Disrespect? Both are earned, from actions.
 <Pies>	iavatus | Aye, that's the important thing. Respect and commmunication, would have solved problems then, would have solved problems now.
 <iavatus>	Not pulled from a vacuum
 <Axiom>	EchoMan: Did you see what I said?
 <iavatus>	And it's not slander if it's valid.
 <Pies>	respect and communication doesn't solve all problems, but is usually tried
 <EchoMan>	You generalize and assume stuff and present it as facts.
 <EchoMan>	Axiom yes
 <Axiom>	I understand this is a difficult situation for everyone and that tempers are still hot about it, but I think it would be great if both sides could try to have a respectful conversation instead of resorting to ad hominem attacks.
 <Pies>	but please, keep in mind, that limited staff with their own lives is trying to support much bigger playerbase
 <iavatus>	3 months.
 *	cantrplayer_39 has quit (cantrplayer_39)
 <iavatus>	Not exactly like it's been a short amount of time.
 <EchoMan>	It's not difficult, just tiresome to have to defend agains senseless accusations, assumptions and slandering.
 <iavatus>	And not very much has been done. Maybe invisibly, behind the scenes, but I doubt it.
 <iavatus>	Or you'd be bringing it up and throwing it in my face.
 <Pies>	iavatus: do simple thing
 <Axiom>	Okay. Well, if you wouldn't say bad things about me when I'm not here to defend myself, I would appreciate it.
 <iavatus>	You, Echo, don't. It's the people behind who are silent in all this, who should.
 <Pies>	prove that staff is corrupted. Or, that Pilot is corrupted
 <Pies>	prove, not accuse, but prove
 <iavatus>	How can I. All information is sealed, and rewritable.
 <iavatus>	I can point out actions, and you say they're legit.
 <Pies>	so we can only throw shit at each other, right?
 <iavatus>	I can point out the silver and stone knights, and the fact that, what is it, all the main towns on the omeo and spanish area are controlled by Pilot?
 <iavatus>	And again, you can simply say, eh, not proof.
 <Pies>	I have no idea nor give fuck about spanish area
 <Pies>	do you know Spanish at least?
 <iavatus>	Pendejo :3
 <iavatus>	No, not really.
 <iavatus>	Oh!
 <iavatus>	And duos tequila por favor
 <Pies>	so why does it bothers you?
 <iavatus>	It bothers me, because it's clear evidence, and you've just discounted it, cause it's over the border.
 <Pies>	I don't have this evidence
 <iavatus>	So, then why are you bothered?
 <iavatus>	It doesn't affect you, evidently.
 <Pies>	I don't know Spanish, never was playing in Spanish towns nor know Pilot chars
 <iavatus>	Except when I point out that staff are willing to let corruption stand, and pretend it doesn't affect em.
 <Pies>	corruption is having old chars by old players?
 <Pies>	because often old chars rules
 <iavatus>	Again, I was on staff (yes, trainnee. The same title that Alladinsane works under). I quit, because I don't like the stink of bullshit.
 <Pies>	so create better game with better staff without bullshit?
 <iavatus>	Again. Fix this, or reinvent wheel.
 <iavatus>	I'll start with the less retarded option.
 <Pies>	I would love to see better game, I just don't like shit being thrown at my direction
 <Pies>	and you will end with players accusing you anyways
 <Pies>	there always will be ones
 <iavatus>	Then ask why Pilot is happy to let everyone get splattered by his own shit.
 <Axiom>	I for one am much happier and more productive without Cantr in my life, even setting aside my PD case. I would enthusiastically endorse quitting, actually!
 <iavatus>	Cause, that's where it comes from.
 <iavatus>	I'm simply pointing it out. He's the production facility of it.
 <Pies>	iavatus: many times I disliked Pilot decision because player was bithing and instead he done as player wanted
 <iavatus>	I'm willing to take a guess that he was friends, or friends of friends with those players.
 <Pies>	for example because player wasn't able to read announcement about sharpening tools and wanted like always everything being free
 <iavatus>	Because that's how cronyism works.
 <Pies>	iavatus: and this how complaining people works
 <Pies>	they will always find reason to complain
 <Pies>	and they will complain even if something is good
 <iavatus>	So, one person whines about repair tools, they get mollified or their way.
 <Axiom>	Anyway, I'm not really interested in this drama anymore, but if there's anything that I can clear up, I can be reached.
 <Axiom>	Goodbye!
 <iavatus>	A staff treats everyone around him with contempt and disrespect. Theres, no comparison.
 *	Axiom ([email protected]) has left (boop)
 <Pies>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K183YETUB0Y
 <iavatus>	No, sorry.
 <iavatus>	My complaints and points are very, very valid.
 <Pies>	for you, yes
 <iavatus>	Ignoring them, dismissing them, trivialising them, is an option, yes.
 <iavatus>	Guess what? I'll keep bringing them up.
 <EchoMan>	... and based on assumptions, heresay and guesses mostly
 <Pies>	I saw complains about fto staff, about ogame staff, about hattrick staff
 <iavatus>	Ahh, you can speak Echo.
 <Pies>	at every big enough game
 <iavatus>	Remarkably unwilling to speak or apologise while Ax was here.
 <iavatus>	For your own assumption.
 <iavatus>	*hearsay, btw. The more you know.
 <EchoMan>	lol
 <iavatus>	And on that note, cheerio gaiz. All the best, etc.
 <Pies>	if we would have tyranny, we could at least ban everybody who complains
 <iavatus>	Ahhhh, what happened?
 <iavatus>	Oh that's right, we did get banned.
 <EchoMan>	Now assuming even more shit, and throwing it out as fact.
 <iavatus>	And OC apparently, previously.
 <Pies>	I keep saying your shit?
 <EchoMan>	Really, get a grip
 <Pies>	seeing*
 <iavatus>	We got unbanned, because some staff realise that squishing people, doesn't work or make sense.
 <EchoMan>	fantasy
 <Pies>	so this isn't proper tyranny
 <EchoMan>	You got unbanned from the forum, because the bans were unjust
 <Pies>	it would be so much better if people would be properly squished
 <Pies>	fast and once for all
 <iavatus>	Exactly my point, Echo.
 <iavatus>	That there are some staff who believe in reason.
 <iavatus>	And a big fat chunk, who don't.
 <Pies>	without any ability to complain. Ip's blocked, mails rejected
 <iavatus>	Anyway, I'm out.
 <Pies>	thanks
 <EchoMan>	bye
 <iavatus>	Feel free to vote for SO HARD
 <iavatus>	Cause, that amuses me :3
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue  2015