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  2. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:15 PM
  3. pox what are you politically
  4. PoxToday at 6:16 PM
  5. Well.
  6. Mystical_WatersToday at 6:17 PM
  7. btw, Noah I know you're not able to respond right now but for reference any ought statement purported in the Bible by God is the objective morality all humans ought to follow.
  8. Is what I believe
  9. PoxToday at 6:18 PM
  10. For a long time I used to be a dead hard devoted communist. I would switch my opinions rapidly between Marxism, to Leninism, to Maoism, and finally ending it all at Juche. I then decided that I hated communism and the people who support it. I became a centrist, and developed a more center-right conservative stance. I wish to keep American values and things alike (though, my opinion changes depending on what kind of value means what.) I am heavily nationalistic to my heritage (German) but I don't know much about the modern German political standpoints.
  11. I myself don't get into to much digging around in politics but I do like to get a sense of what things mean.
  12. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:19 PM
  13. nice
  14. PoxToday at 6:19 PM
  15. And yourself?
  16. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:19 PM
  17. i am a socialist comrade
  18. PoxToday at 6:20 PM
  19. Oh
  20. Neato
  21. I respect everyone's opinion and all, but I can not bare to stand people like Anti-Fa, or people alike.
  22. Like fascists
  23. KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:20 PM
  24. I’m anitcom
  25. PoxToday at 6:21 PM
  26. I can't stand radicals
  27. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:21 PM
  28. noah you must first embrace yourself into communist ideas to fully understand it
  29. i will guide you to communism dont worry
  30. KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:22 PM
  31. I once beat up a kid for not saying the pledge(people that aren’t legal US citizens are exempt from my judgement). Does that make me a radical?
  32. PoxToday at 6:22 PM
  33. Yeah, I kind of have to agree with what you said @󠇰 icey. You have to understand before you have an opinion.
  34. KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:22 PM
  35. Reeeeeee
  36. Fuck communism
  37. PoxToday at 6:22 PM
  38. Partly?
  39. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:22 PM
  40. well he has the right not to say the pledge and you dont have the right to beat him up
  41. KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:22 PM
  42. Like I give a shit
  43. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:22 PM
  44. you're not a radical in beliefs but the way you carry yours out in
  45. PoxToday at 6:23 PM
  46. ^
  47. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:24 PM
  48. what is wrong with communism @KnowItAll_Noah
  49. KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:25 PM
  50. It’s not capitalism
  51. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:25 PM
  52. but what is wrong with it
  53. KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:25 PM
  54. I just told you
  55. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:25 PM
  56. what is good about capitalism
  57. KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:26 PM
  58. Everything
  59. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:27 PM
  60. can you name some
  61. ---------------------------------------
  62. STAGE 2
  65. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:33 PM
  66. so like we can agree communism is better than capitalism in theory?
  67. PoxToday at 6:33 PM
  68. Okay. I can agree with you that communism has superior ideas than capitalism, but only in theory.
  69. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:34 PM
  70. so like where would it fail
  71. PoxToday at 6:35 PM
  72. Mmm... well, it has typically always fallen due to human error. Practically every attempt has been failed because of a dictatorship that resulted in error.
  73. If I may ask, what would you do to achieve communism if you had all the resources and tools to create your country?
  74. And I'm not saying that it can't be done through a dictatorship, or one great leader, but it always ends up because of greed or something similar.
  75. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:37 PM
  76. well you would create communes of around 150 people as that is scientifically proven to be best for communities, create housing, schools, automated production, and basic needs accessible
  77. PoxToday at 6:37 PM
  78. Alright. How would you create these needs such as housing, etc?
  79. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:37 PM
  80. workers
  81. PoxToday at 6:37 PM
  82. Alright, sorry, I made an error myself.
  83. I said if you had all the resources and tools to create it.
  84. I was still in theory.
  85. In theory everything works.
  86. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:38 PM
  87. lol
  88. PoxToday at 6:38 PM
  89. Let's talk about actual 2019 - whenever
  90. Or before
  91. If you want
  92. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:38 PM
  93. okay let me point something out
  94. so when things are collectivized, like resources needed to construct, food to eat, tools to work it is much more effective than when an individual has a concentrated amount
  95. PoxToday at 6:40 PM
  96. What do you mean by the last part?
  97. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:40 PM
  98. so like if you are on your own and you want to make a building, but all you have is cement and no tools to lay the cement with
  99. its less effective than if you are apart of a community that shares the tools and cement
  100. PoxToday at 6:40 PM
  101. Well yes.
  102. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:41 PM
  103. so i say this to make clear that its not hard to provide housing, water, food for everyone
  104. when its collectivized
  105. PoxToday at 6:42 PM
  106. brb
  107. Back, sorry.
  108. Anyways, collectivization makes sense when used in this sense, but I still have a strong feeling for individualism because of what has happened through history.
  109. It's all just a big battle over theory vs history/reality.
  110. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:45 PM
  111. when hasnt it worked in history
  112. PoxToday at 6:45 PM
  113. Because there will always be someone who will share their tools and resources, and someone who says no and wants to build something of their own.
  114. @KnowItAll_Noah Your turn!
  115. KnowItAll_NoahToday at 6:46 PM
  116. I don’t feel like it
  117. PoxToday at 6:46 PM
  118. Well, it has in a way
  119. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:46 PM
  120. noah doesnt know how to debate you might wanna continue
  121. PoxToday at 6:47 PM
  122. Millions have died over it, but there is always a point where they do stabilize it. Like how the Soviets finally stabilized food production after killing millions of Ukrainians.
  123. Because of the food being transported to Moscow and not being distributed enough
  124. Tr33ckoToday at 6:48 PM
  125. @󠇰 icey communes are fine. However, they shouldnt be enforced by the state
  126. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:48 PM
  127. the soviet union had many flaws but food was not an issue
  128. PoxToday at 6:48 PM
  129. Exactly.
  130. Nothing should be enforced by the state
  131. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:48 PM
  132. they wont be enforced
  133. PoxToday at 6:48 PM
  134. That's why everything looks like shit in communist practice
  135. Tr33ckoToday at 6:48 PM
  136. In fact, I'm a big fan of communes and living together. I just think the government should get its greasy fingers off of the economy
  137. PoxToday at 6:48 PM
  138. It's even against the whole theory of Marxism
  139. No government
  140. stateless
  141. classless
  142. Tr33ckoToday at 6:49 PM
  143. Yes, but then governments will form
  144. We need some semblance of a government
  145. Or else we'll devolve (evolve in this case) into feudalism over time
  146. PoxToday at 6:50 PM
  147. I think the only way a partially stateless society would be under Trotskyism and have the entire world unite, but even then you would need to have local governments of some sort to communicate with other "sectors" of the world.
  148. Which is highly unlikely to ever occur
  149. even in theory
  150. Tr33ckoToday at 6:51 PM
  151. A small government would be good. Less taxes means more money to spend for you. Plus, a lot of government spending is spent on oversight and administration
  152. PoxToday at 6:52 PM
  153. I think government spending would be good depending on what they were spending it on.
  154. Tr33ckoToday at 6:52 PM
  155. Well, of course its good sometimes
  156. You cant have a government without spending
  157. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:52 PM
  158. government needs money to regulate
  159. Tr33ckoToday at 6:53 PM
  160. See, theres that word i dont like very much
  161. "Regulate"
  162. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:53 PM
  163. like environment
  164. PoxToday at 6:53 PM
  165. Like in the current world. I do not agree with the U.S. government using tax payer dollars to fund healthcare programs or other government programs. (Under Sanders)
  166. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:53 PM
  167. co2 emissions and ocean pollution
  168. PoxToday at 6:53 PM
  169. brb
  170. Tr33ckoToday at 6:54 PM
  171. So, you wish for the government to regulate to save the environment?
  172. PoxToday at 6:54 PM
  173. back
  174. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:54 PM
  175. yes
  176. Tr33ckoToday at 6:54 PM
  177. Admirable, but how?
  178. (Welcome back, pox)
  179. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:54 PM
  180. pollution standards and such
  181. Tr33ckoToday at 6:55 PM
  182. I mean, I cant say I'm against regulating pollution. Since pollution, in every form, damages others and their property, its a violation of the non-aggression principle
  183. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:55 PM
  184. ^
  185. exactly what i believe
  186. Tr33ckoToday at 6:56 PM
  187. libertarian environmentalism: your smoke is on my property
  188. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:56 PM
  189. private property just restricts freedom lol
  190. Tr33ckoToday at 6:57 PM
  191. Not really
  192. Letting others interfere with what is yours is restricting freedom
  193. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:57 PM
  194. its private therefore restricting access to others
  195. Tr33ckoToday at 6:57 PM
  196. So?
  197. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:57 PM
  198. but why is it yours?
  199. Tr33ckoToday at 6:57 PM
  200. Your rights end where others begin
  201. Your right to enter my property ends where my right to hold it begins
  202. Well, in theory it should
  203. 󠇰 iceyToday at 6:58 PM
  204. 'right to hold it'
  205. the only thing that means is the right to not have others come in
  206. Tr33ckoToday at 6:59 PM
  207. You act like everyone is going to close off their land and become permits, and you act like parks and roads, non-private land, dont exist
  208. PoxToday at 6:59 PM
  209. That's another thing I enjoy, private property.
  210. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:00 PM
  211. 61% of america is private property
  212. Tr33ckoToday at 7:00 PM
  213. Yup
  214. PoxToday at 7:00 PM
  215. It would be 100% if we had no government.
  216. There would be claims, and people to defend those claims.
  217. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:00 PM
  218. parks and roads exactly. an example of collectivized properties working
  219. Rosemary BlackshieldToday at 7:00 PM
  221. PoxToday at 7:00 PM
  222. God damnit
  223. Tr33ckoToday at 7:00 PM
  224. Anarchy always results in the reformation of govt
  225. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:00 PM
  226. im not saying you dont have the right for people not to walk into your home
  227. who is talking about anarchy
  228. Tr33ckoToday at 7:01 PM
  229. You
  230. When you say "stateless"
  231. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:01 PM
  232. when
  233. Tr33ckoToday at 7:01 PM
  234. Bruh
  235. PoxToday at 7:01 PM
  236. Are you talking about me? I mentioned stateless a few times.
  237. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:02 PM
  238. almost everything should be owned by the collective population
  239. except personal property
  240. PoxToday at 7:02 PM
  241. How far do you go with personal property?
  242. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:02 PM
  243. well possessions
  244. PoxToday at 7:03 PM
  245. Pictures, antiques, valuables?
  246. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:03 PM
  247. yes
  248. PoxToday at 7:03 PM
  249. How far does it extend?
  250. Is my three room apartment my possession?
  251. But the apartment complex is owned by everyone.
  252. Is that one apartment room mine?
  253. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:04 PM
  254. exactly
  255. well its OWNED by the collective
  256. but you live in it
  257. PoxToday at 7:04 PM
  258. I live in it but everyone owns it. Therefore, everyone can live in it. Anyone can just come in because they own it too.
  259. That's where I disagree in collective ownership.
  260. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:04 PM
  261. ownership doesnt mean you can live in it
  262. PoxToday at 7:05 PM
  263. If I own a computer, I can't use it?
  264. If I own a shed, I can't store things in it? Or even live in it?
  265. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:05 PM
  266. its a personal property
  267. k like one at a time lol
  268. PoxToday at 7:05 PM
  269. no
  270. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:05 PM
  271. you still think from a private ownership stance
  272. PoxToday at 7:06 PM
  273. Alright, so the computer was made by workers in a factory.
  274. Each worker collectively owns the computer because each worked on it.
  275. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:06 PM
  276. one at a time jesus
  277. PoxToday at 7:06 PM
  278. But, yet, it's mine?
  279. NO!
  280. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:06 PM
  281. omfg
  282. PoxToday at 7:06 PM
  283. Not one at a time
  284. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:07 PM
  285. your shed is owned collectively by your commune and the commune decides what is personal property and not
  286. PoxToday at 7:08 PM
  287. Alright, so what if we have 50 people in this commune. 30 people agree that this antique shovel from say World War 2 is my personal property because my grandfather used it in battle. And 20 people say no, it is owned by everyone, all 50 people. What happens then?
  288. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:09 PM
  289. private property pretty much means means of production
  290. PoxToday at 7:09 PM
  291. How does everyone come to a singular agreement?
  292. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:09 PM
  293. personal property is different
  294. PoxToday at 7:09 PM
  295. Give me an example of both.
  296. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:10 PM
  297. private property is a factory, personal property is a shed
  298. idk man i dont even believe in fucking communism
  299. PoxToday at 7:11 PM
  300. But, private property is my shed. When you see someone's house with a no trespassing sign, you are trespassing on private property. Personal property to my mind is private property, but more sacred to you. If you get what I mean?
  301. Well neither do I.
  302. Have I made you go insane yet?
  303. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:12 PM
  304. nah i have been trolling this whole time
  305. PoxToday at 7:12 PM
  306. big oof
  307. 󠇰 iceyToday at 7:12 PM
  308. i am a nazi
  309. PoxToday at 7:12 PM
  310. I was about to say, I'm actually a National Socialist
  311. jk no homo
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