After today's discussion and in-depth pointing out of things that have gone wrong, it's apparent that the work that I have been putting in has been misinterpreted significantly. The respect for the officer team has dimished to a point where if we remove the toxicity, the remaining officer team will still have no respect. I have been informed that I have not contributed positively to this and the buck stops with me

After a long chat with Whale and Shiney, the buck ultimately stops with me in terms of what has gone wrong, and therefore due to these chats and realizations, it is apparent that the time has come to make a new leadership within Team 1 because I no longer want to justify the time investment in something that is not working out for the people in it because of myself. They are correct, as the manager has to go when it isn't working out. This is a perception by some players and if shared then should mean the buck stops at the top

This post is to ask the guild who the best leaders will be.

As I have been perceived to have let the team and atmosphere down, the buck stops with me, so the new officers/structure will not have me in it.

I come to now ask you constructively about a structure you think will work and who will fit in this structure.

I will probably move over to helping lead Team 2 when this process has been constructed. If this will assist in having someone lead the guild as well, this can be done.

I would also be curious to hear views about the existing structure and if this is also feasible to continue.

Discuss.

have included a poll - and as i said on discord, treat this seriously because the current structure has been called in to question significantly so the current structure should not really keep pushing the raids until this is resolved.


viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2666&p=23538#p23538 < - n ew post


August 17th, 2017, 23:13	Report this post Profile Send private message

Jamesmarcus
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
Expression of Interest:

Kazakhan


August 17th, 2017, 23:27	Report this post Profile Send private message

Shiny
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
My 2 cents:

I don't necessarily agree with a lot that has been said I'm more than willing to help out but have no interest in being part of management/ leading (I have a way too masculine voice for such affairs)

In regards to the buck stops with james ect... I think that we all need to take some personal responsibility here, I don't think when anyone joins a guild they expect their speech to policed and in most cases it's generally not needed. But things spiral out of control and it turns into a messy situation with no easy fix. I mean there is plenty of things James could or could not have done but the same can be said about the majority of people in the raid.

In short, I am currently very happy and would like to remain in this guild and if I have to think twice before making a snide remark or insult ect... and then not making that remark in order to allow the guild to progress, that's not a very tall price to pay.

The guild has been very successful recently under the current leadership you can easily see the proof of this here: https://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/silvermoon

Last edited by Shiny on August 18th, 2017, 10:29, edited 1 time in total.


August 18th, 2017, 0:20	Report this post Profile Send private message

Jamesmarcus
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
KLast note on this one - people have asked here - we can continue with curent structure or amend, this is an option but one that isn't overall popular so wasn't mentioned on original post. It's all about improving or overhauling. Poll exists for that reason.


August 18th, 2017, 0:39	Report this post Profile Send private message

Jamesmarcus
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
To say again, you must contribute to this. We have 3 days until next raid. We need to know what the current status is, player happiness, how to address problems, and a new structure. As I have stated, the current structure has been called in to question significantly, meaning that it cannot operate in the current team until resolved. This happened in Consequence, with big Nuck pushing after this happened and the guild went boom. It's uncomfortable but a light must be shone.


August 18th, 2017, 8:04	Report this post Profile Send private message

Mkjensen
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
I suppose this is a matter of everyone bringing their respective point of view on the matter, both leadership-wise and with the whole banter issue.

For me it's very frustrating to raid because of very conflicting emotions I get from officers every raid. Now, this is often not aimed directly at me, but that doesn't mean that I don't listen to it happen to others in the raid.

I often catch myself taking off my headset when criticism is being given to players, as for me it isn't criticism which is being said, but direct attacks. Now these have happened to me too from the entire leadership, Kaz, James and Krissa - and while I wanna say that I don't take offense to these remarks; since I have been in "the game" for a long time, it certainly isn't the case since I find myself becoming a worse player, since I don't feel like I'm being criticized, but rather just being spat at in the face.

I don't know if it's a cultural thing as I have mostly always had Danish leadership in previous guilds, and therefore I can relate better to the way issues are being dealt with inbetween pulls, but it's no secret that what you call "bants" is to me just plain offensive and has nothing to do with humour.

There has been a fairly large influx of new players to IS through ToS, myself included, and personalities clash very quickly. I know that a lot of you guys know each other from previous guilds and have created "an understanding" on how things are supposed to be, which to me is amazing and admirable, but can sometimes lead to severe misunderstandings when newcomers interpret it and may get the wrong impression.

Now, I've learned to live with it, since I genuinely enjoy the progress we've managed to acheive despite all the problems that we have had this tier, and I truly amend James for his continued effort to create a less hostile environment as a whole.

I realize this is a long post, and I can not provide the omniscient answer that James seeks, and sadly can not step up to the plate, since I neither have the raid-leading experience nor the authority among the players to partake in that role - but I can assure you, as I hope others, that I won't be bailing anytime soon as long as we continue to respect each others boundaries to the extent that it is possible. I'm not saying we have to turn this in to a knitting party, since that gets us nowhere, but be reasonable adults who do not have to attempt to trigger anyone at all times, especially if you're not certain they interpret it the same way you do.


August 18th, 2017, 8:09	Report this post Profile Send private message

Veej
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
Current structure has had results, only difference between then and now is the raiders. If people continue to intentionally be disruptive then as an officer team, make a decision. You want to be able to raid, but you don't want to kick people to cause roster problem. But you don't want to lose people because of the ones you might or might not kick who are being disruptive, so just choose what to do instead of limbo-ing between the two.

If it comes down to it, in a way, this is the perfect time to just get rid of the people who are constantly giving you greivences due to more people taking time off / causing us [and other guilds] inability to progress raid properly anyway.

I would personally kick people and hold progress until replacements come in, rather than raid and risk losing other people who you don't want to stop raiding with us, and then kicking the problem causers.

My end game is to clear the content and I am happy with the pace it is happening at. I am happy on the most part with the people I am raiding with, and the way in which leading / communicating / during and outside of raids etc.

I don't particularly like the notion of giving 3 nights a week to screaming spastics when mistakes begin happening and early 20s autists who are probably better gamers than me but also far from humanitarian in the way they approach social situations, but that's just my opinion.

If you ask me, our Maiden progress was very good. We were calm and collected, we didn't rage at failures publicly for the most part, which avoided the knock on affect of demoralising people. If we're able to replicate this, then we are fine and nothing needs to change.

At the end of the day, I'll likely see no reason not to raid between now and the end of prog, with my personal busy period out of the way. I probably won't quit either because I'm already too invested in this tier and I also don't have all the transmog I want. I support the existing officers, I support the idea of giving Sagart GM so James can chill or leave or do whatever, I support the idea of recruiting a new raid leader. I assume most people are like me in that I don't actually care what happens, in the grand scheme of things I'm not causing officers problems, I'm not really putting in bad raid performances, and it's literally 2, perhaps 3 people causing all of this to be discussed and if you just eradicated them, at the cost of not raiding properly one reset, you wouldn't have the constant headaches you currently have.


August 18th, 2017, 8:15	Report this post Profile Send private message

Jamesmarcus
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
@false Kaz and Krissa aren't officers ATM - maybe that's why its confusing. Are the bants member related or officer related?

@Veej thank you.

I think the one area I can admit where it hasn't gone well has been my ability to offer players chances to redeem - some have abused this and created the barren wasteland.

More feedback.


August 18th, 2017, 8:40	Report this post Profile Send private message

Mkjensen
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
I realise they aren't officers, but often being an "official" officer or not is not always relevant, it's the power you hold.

I have employees in my firm who do not hold any leadership-role, but due to their seniority or influence they have created in the firm, they are treated as leaders, whether it being due to their knowledge and commitment/loyalty in the guild/group.

I'm completely new in this guild, and I know that even though they aren't leaders per se, they have established and proven themselves continuously in the raiding environment and guild towards the leadership for some time, and therefore being considered equal isn't a realistic depiction. Now whether or not that is desirable or even intentional is up for discussion, but it is nevertheless the impression that I personally get. I can not speak for others, naturally, on that matter specifically.

If you were to show this leadership structure to a complete stranger they would think that James, Kaz and Krissa were the leaders, and no one would have a clue that Sags and Henrik were the actual officers, since the contribution is often "behind-the-scenes" with the recruitment that Sags provides, and the tactics and boss preparations of Henrik (Now this may not be the actual case, but that is the perception I have)

As for the bants, it is often a combination, but mostly from influencers(going to use that word instead of officers) to the newcomers. I'm a military veteran, admittedly, and thus have always only respected authority - and I find it super important that the kind of criticism/banter/grief that is being tossed around needs to come from a place of respect, where you can effectively judge your own performance around that.

I have made many mistakes on many occassions, and when I get griefed(not criticism, but grief, which is an important distnction) from anyone else but James, Henrik or Sags it frustrates me beyond anything else.
The reason I'm saying this that if James were to be dissatisfied with my performance for an extended period of time over a raid night, I know it comes from a place of wanting to have the best roster possible who can perform to the level that can be expected of us. Now, when that comes from anyone else, I often just get the impression that they hate my guts and wish I wasn't there, and now they finally found a reason to express that publicly due to my mistakes.

It's important to note that I haven't had this happen to me that much, so it's not a big issue for me personally, since I would have been kicked or left ages ago if so, but I can see how that has happened to previous members of our guild.


Last edited by Mkjensen on August 18th, 2017, 9:15, edited 2 times in total.


August 18th, 2017, 8:49	Report this post Profile Send private message

Aylje
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
My, somewhat outsider (as I'm not really playing much lately), perspective: I don't get why the drama. The guild has obviously been doing very well so far (the progress is good for the time spent, wipe counts are good). If you want to take the blame, why not take credit for it as well? Why fix something that's not broken? I get that leading puts pressure on the leader, especially when there's blaming/no appreciation. But I'd rather not risk changing (and ruining) everything because of some attitude issues that are not even related to actual play. Same goes for others: learn to appreciate what you have here before you break it.

I wish I could be more specific/constructive here, but I don't even know what really happened recently.

On a side note - I really enjoyed the way Maiden progress went with Penkek (calm and focused). Perhaps it was just easy boss, but it felt good.


August 18th, 2017, 9:01	Report this post Profile Send private message

Nïdalee
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
I know my input as a random trial holds little (if any) weight, but I like hearing myself speak so here goes.

From the little time I've had here, it seems exceedingly obvious that the leadership and majority of the raid has the ability and willingness to be an outstanding guild. I've been in Sags' position in the past, and I know how stressful and thankless of a job recruiting is. James seems to have all of the qualities of a proper leader to me - Concise, calm (mostly), clear.

The only real issue that I can see from raids and stream watching, is that people need to stop backseat raidleading and grow thicker skin.

e.g. last wednesday I was not aware of the way a certain mechanic was handled on Host. I did this incorrectly on the first two pulls, after which I recognized something was up, whispered Sags to request clarification, got said clarification, and fixed the issue. At the same time, several people either whispered me or straight up called out on discord whether I was intentionally ignoring mechanics to do more DPS.

Now, as a newcomer and generally passive person, this doesn't bug me much - But I can easily see how this kind of stuff causes massive friction to people that have any semblance of confidence in their raid spot (not in a bad way), where it can come off as belligerent. My mistake was relatively minor, and although the input was appreciated, the tone was not exactly great.

I guess where I'm going with all this - If someone wants to take on an endorsed leading role for mechanics (e.g. maiden calls by Pancake), huzzah. Otherwise, make your displeasure with people's performance/whatever known in a *respectful* way, and for everyone involved, an extra splash of maturity in handling input would solve most of the guild's issues. Changing the entire leadership seems needlessly radical and honestly kind of idiotic.

~ Niblet.


August 18th, 2017, 9:46	Report this post Profile Send private message

Jamesmarcus
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
All input is respected regardless of stance.


August 18th, 2017, 10:27	Report this post Profile Send private message

Sagart
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
Things have spiraled somewhat out of control, but in all honesty this was somewhat needed to make sure that we either keep on going forward or stop. We need to have a crystal clear view on whats going on with the guild and team 1.
We cannot change for the better if it's been hidden behind ' harmless banter ' or just straight forward been said behind closed doors.

For this; any input is hugely appreciated as we can, from there on actually start working as a team but most importantly listen for once and do what is needed to keep a healthy structure and a fun raid environment.

I realize that some people have thicker skin then others and will perform better when being called out. This of course is a two sided coin , some of you wont. We're trying to find a middle ground here , one were all of us can enjoy the actual game while progressing on a decent tempo. However, talking from my own experience , the vast majority improves their game when being called out by an officer. Valid points were made about call outs by other raiders, and this really need to stop if want to keep a good structured raid environment.

Agreeing on the fact that raiders should stop try to raid lead when not asked for, We still appreciate any input during wipes and while we prepare to pull again.
It seems that this is somewhat tricky with us , and a lot of individuals just want their own words heard and don't bother to actually listen to what others have to say. This comes down to pretty much lack of respect to the people you play with on a daily base. This is also what got us to this point today.

I'm more then happy to keep doing what I'm doing. I feel that a majority is happy with what I do and how I do it.
However to make this clear, .. If it comes down to new leadership - James stepping down; then I will not remain in a leadership position. I also have no interest in taking over GM powers.
This might sound somewhat strange, but I'm here to help out my current raiders and specially my current GM and fellow officers but this is something I will not continue to do when when the current leadership is being questioned by some.

Ways that we can Improve:

* We get way more strict with afk's - random disappearances
- Note: We have been very forgiven to a lot of people when it comes to that. Including myself. Hence why we haven't really done much about this. We know that people need their days off, and this will happen often, we respect that. ( to clarify that )

* Null toleration on people being toxic and creating a bad raid environment.
- Note: Remember that a lot of our players like to banter and make fun of each other in a playful way. Yet again this makes it hard for us to realize when people are actually being toxic towards each other or not , there is a fine line between banter and being toxic and for some individuals that line lays somewhere else then it does for others. ( I even think that some don't even realize when they are, to clarify that )

* No more compassion and booting people faster when not respecting the rules.
- Note: Personally, I'm not a fan of that. I believe in second chances and even third chances. I think that most of you can improve when needed with a proper warning been given, I'm very forgiving and I think every officer in this guild is. This being said, We as officers can indeed improve our ' warning talks ' and we will work on that aswell.


August 18th, 2017, 13:52	Report this post Profile Send private message

Stomper
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
I just wanna say a few quick things.

First, people who are getting offended by getting called out by the officer team for doing something retarded, are very very stupid people and they do not belong in this guild. While we are casually raiding, we are still trying to have good performance and progress overall, and we are doing fine, which is no secret. And everyone who joined this guild signed up for quality raiding on a tight raiding schedule. No decent guild can progress quick without fixing mistakes quick, which most of the time are purely individual mistakes and being called out is just a part of raiding. It is another thing to be called out by another raider as people have already said and that should probably stop imo.

Now the "banterers" of the guild is what has also caused issues in the guild. Some banter is fine, but lately that so called banter is slowly turning into toxicity, especially in between pulls. People start poking at each other with some stupid shit they randomly say and it starts a discussion. If you just want to say something stupid, why not take a look how is it gonna affect the raid and simply not fkin say it at all. I mean this is ridicilous, we are not childern, but seeling these posts from everyone, I have to say this kind of bullshit. I do agree that when a little banter started to turn into more toxicity, it should have been stopped sooner, so people don't randomly start being disrespectful, especially towards the whole officer team. You need to learn when to shut your mouth and not say anything.

Now for James specifically and the whole everyone is raid leading thing, it was gonna happen eventually, we did not have a designated raid leader for a whole boss and now for avatar too, so it is expected. But I do agree if James does not wish or cannot be our official raid leader (which I personally think he most definetly should) then we should look for another officer who can fulfill the role which Whale used to have. I know the officer team is already looking for some time, I am just stating facts. I am 100% sure that if James was an actual raid leader, he would not have to deal with that disrespect he is talking about, I am not fully aware of everything that James has/had to deal with so he doesn't wish to lead and be the pivotal point of the team, which I would strongly support.

As someone said above, after that night on Avatar with autistic discussions, so many worries have come up by the officers which are not even present, it is just a matter of a very small minority not caring about the outcome of their actions and how it reflects on the guild.

There are plenty of details and I personally think the guild does not have any immense issues, it's just the toxicity and random pokes should be stopped, officers respected and we just keep going.

This is a respected guild and it's members should show deference to each other. Also, I highly disagree with James potentially leaving team 1 raiding and managment, don't you fucking dare, just saying. :)


August 18th, 2017, 14:45	Report this post Profile Send private message

Jamesmarcus
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Post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
I will post now, we've had input from 75% of the raid team which appears universal.

I will place a link to this post in the Original Post. Let me know if we disagree with this assumption.

1) There is no desire to change the current structure, with myself leading and still having to raidlead (sadly)
2) The guild members recognize that the fault lay within their own toxicity and flaming, and that the officers need to be harder on the people doing this to the point where gkicking them on the spot or demoting is acceptable. The officers have been too tolerant of this in the guild so far giving people chances that has been abused. The officer core needs to change this now and be harsher.
3) There is a need for one more officer. From the looks of the roster and the strengths of each individual player compared to raid contribution and status in the guild, I am open for discussion about who an officer could be - but we will need one to, in essence, manage expectations, people and strats.
4) There is a further need for more responsibility in the player base. The same two players who are attracting polarity in the team are cited within our current team because they represent polar ends of a spectrum, both are very confident players and talk openly but express this in a different concept. I believe we are at a point now where if the guild is wishing the officers to lead with more authority and not to argue back, the member base needs to take ownership of the atmosphere. Ryan when he left even said that he contributed negatively towards it.

That are my 4 points on this. I am happy for further input from the team if the above 4 will settle this issue. I know there has been talk of removing players - again, it's the same 2 people. Frankly speaking, I would happily take a lead from the guild on this - do we issue final warnings to players in how to behave, or do we remove? That's the age old question and perhaps one that I as a GM (still it seems) need to resolve.

Continue to feed back. Two more days.

Lastly, as of Sunday morning I will remove most of these discussions as we will be getting alot of new members in. It is important to clear this before the Sunday raid so we can move on together.

One last point

we are realm first who only raid 3 days per week with 2 days on avatar and cleared 7/9 in one reset . Necessary to underline that.


August 18th, 2017, 16:23	Report this post Profile Send private message

Metro
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Unread post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
It really seems like most of these posts refer to banter getting out of control and becoming personal digs at people. Yes officers needed to step in earlier, however its now too late. Learn from the mistake and move on.

We are all adults. Responsibility, at the end of the day, lies with the offending parties. When it comes to how this is addressed final warnings/removal etc. The poll really speaks for itself. 19 people want the toxic players removed. That is a huge proportion of the raid team. People are willing to loose members for a more pleasant raiding atmosphere. To me, that speaks volumes. Yes it will compromise our progression but it seems as though people are willing to make that sacrifice. You wanted the opinions of the raiders and a large proportion of the raid team player base have been rather frank and discussed the issues. The buck however, at the end of the day lies with the guild management to decide on that punishment. Whatever that opinion may be, it still needs to be respected.

Regarding point 1... If you don't want to raid lead, don't force yourself into performing the job James. It will only effect the guild in a negative way in the long run. If finding a new RL will allow you to manage the affairs of the guild in a more effective manor and you will be happier, so be it.

I realise that my opinions are rather blunt but at the end of the day I want to look forward to a raid night, not dread it. Personally I am happy with the guild officer ship. What I am not happy with is listening to the bitching on DC from fully grown adults. If I wanted to listen to children all evening I would have raised my own.


August 18th, 2017, 22:50	Report this post Profile Send private message

Jamesmarcus
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Unread post Re: Team 1: A Reconstruction
I have spoken to the people who the team have frequently cited - I don't believe they are toxic players, but due to the fact I didn't have a spine with it it allowed it to fester.

If anyone moves out of line from that, they will be removed. Simple.

I will continue to RL until KJ Mythic is dead. I am also happy to sacrifice progression to remove people who are ruining the atmosphere.

This post draws to a conclusion this saga. We will be having 4 new people come to us by Wednesday - I will be removing this post as of 9am tomorrow and purging Discord, as I want people to see what we are - a harmonius community who is realm first (Still).

Post up any last thoughts.