Interaction with Sabeena

elSmith
I slept in a house last night it was great
Sabeena
State legislatures get to run their elections.
10:13 Sabeena
They write law.
Sabeena
Legislature. See?
infspire
elSmith: Did you cop it?
Sabeena
No court has found unconsititutional state voting practices that justify tossing votes or any serious remedies.
infspire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2WElLr4oAA&ab_channel=Kent%27sGarageGym

Sabeena
Does the Pennsylvania supreme court agree?
infspire
For the uninitiated.
Sabeena
For election law, SCOTUS has only gotten involved when state supreme courts overrule legislatures. Because states get to decide how to run their own elections.
Sabeena
K dude.
infspire
The GOP is a far-right, trending ultra-far right, anti-democratic party that criminally fabricates voter fraud narratives as part of its multi-decade coup against the United States which has intensified in the last few years.
Sabeena
No one is saying they can't; just that they won't.
Sabeena
reefdiver, still raising funds
infspire
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21449634/republicans-supreme-court-gop-trump-authoritarian
Sabeena
I can email you the pitch deck
Sabeena
Uh, no.
infspire
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/d_nXs7CH1fe0JVIUTz7sHqYcBIQ=/0x0:2740x1584/1920x0/filters:focal(0x0:2740x1584):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21811930/EZibQR_WkAM7y4B.jpg
infspire
https://twitter.com/PippaN15/status/1267935819047854080
francis has left IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
infspire
The AKP party is in the realm of Islamism.
Timur
GorillaDr: well, religious rights, for one.Hence the 1st Amendment..
Nikitis_ has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
infspire
The GOP, with QAnon, is trending towards the Golden Dawn party in Greece.
infspire
QAnon will be majority in the GOP by 2021.
infspire
The Golden Dawn is a neo-Nazi party.
Nikitis_ has joined ([email protected])
Timur
infspire: did you see my post about the Euro-right rejecting Bannon
infspire
I did not.
rumblepez has changed mode: -v reefdiver
lockie has changed mode: +v Nikitis_
infspire
reefdiver is one lifelong block.
Timur
sec
infspire
reefdiver is a fanatical tribalist that would overthrow modern civilization in order to avoid unpleasant emotions.
Timur
https://www.dw.com/en/steve-bannon-wont-control-europes-populists-le-pen/a-45803179
infspire
My understanding is he had limited success, but I never followed up on the details.
doodles has joined ([email protected])
infspire
Le Pen is a piece of shit.
infspire
I wonder what he true issues with Bannon are.
infspire
Perhaps she genuinely cares about American v. European identity.
Timur
infspire: yes but with significant backing, as with AfD
lockie has changed mode: +v doodles
infspire
Man, neo-liberalism has been terrible.
Timur
still does, but with the rise of the tiki torch guys, it changes the landscape a bit..
infspire
It seems to strongly generate neo-fascism.
Sabeena
You're more concerned about that not because it's more dangerous in the long run but because it is personally offensive to you.
Timur
droog: to the extent I agree, the cases of Bari Weiss and FIRE.org
Timur
(separate issues)
infspire
Timur: What would be your plan to avoid surging nationalism and illiberalism throughout the world?
Timur
infspire: wish I knew. It rises in times of economic distress among other factors
Sabeena has changed mode: +v reefdiver
infspire
Timur: I think we need to make it a criminal offense to tell lies if you're a powerful person.
infspire
I think this would be one of the most important resistances to illiberalism.
infspire
So, if you're in any governmental capacity you'd be 'powerful'.
Timur
infspire: I agree conceptually, but the details of such a proposition would be frought; as it is frought not to do anything
infspire
If you have a social media presence above some threshold.
infspire
All media entities with sufficient reach.
infspire
Timur: I think it's far more dangerous to continue the status quo.
infspire
Almost all the problems we're facing get caught by disallowing powerful entities from lying.
infspire
It's pretty dramatic.
infspire
Fox News is entirely wiped out.
infspire
No Trump.
Timur
infspire: for sure. Many adaptations will need to be made.. the specifics..
infspire
The opioid crisis results in crushing punishment for larger numbers of actors.
infspire
Fossil fuel companies are obliterated for their lies on climate change.
infspire
The entire GOP leadership is annihilated.
infspire
The Murdoch empire crumbles.
infspire
Wanna see one of the saddest pieces of art I've ever encountered?
infspire
https://twitter.com/mckenzieafrica/status/1332661975000682496
infspire
"What's a beach?"
Sabeena
infspire for all his pretentions invariably comes up with sophomoric solutions.
infspire moves Sabeena to Orange Alert
Jigsaww_
ya hungry?  https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/snrFQn9W/image.png

infspire
Jigsaww_: https://twitter.com/animal_leaks/status/1329765395763490817
infspire
The next ignore I do for Sabeena will be for 12 months.
Sabeena
Who decides what's a lie? Would you have a Mnistry of Truth?
Sabeena
That should do it.
infspire
Sabeena: You appear to be connecting a call to reform to the novel 1984.
infspire
This would be a fallacy.
evermindN
Truth is intersubjective
Sabeena
Adminit this is a sophomoric fantasy:  we need to make it a criminal offense to tell lies if you're a powerful person
Sabeena
Or ignore me already.
infspire
Who would decide something is a lie? Do we currently have any aspects of our civilization that determine truth?
evermindN
??"view from nowhere"
infspire
I can think of several.
Sabeena
Perjury is already illegal. What reform are you suggesting?
infspire
Entities that determine truth: scientific organizations, courts, media organizations.
Sabeena
Sophomoric fantasy.
infspire
You're repeating your thesis.
infspire
You have a pending question.
infspire sets a timer
evermindN
Truth should be determined by rap battle
infspire
Do we currently have any aspects of our civilization that determine truth?
Sabeena
You haven't made a claim worth addressing.
evermindN
Mimmie, i missed that, sadly
infspire
Sabeena: Will you be answering the question?
infspire
"Do we currently have any aspects of our civilization that determine truth?"
infspire
It's okay to say 'no'.
Sabeena
My andwer to "other aspects of civ that determine truth" was the judicial system, under which perjury is already punished.
infspire
If you say no, I will ignore you.
infspire
Sabeena: Right, this reform would see a massive increase in the role of courts in determining truth and then assigning criminal penalties far beyond perjury.
Sabeena
So what reforms do you advocate that would make lying in the public sphere illegal?
infspire
Sabeena: Do you agree scientific organizations currently determine truth, in part?
evermindN
investigators sus out the true facts in order to establisg guilt
infspire
And that scientific organizations currently have truth-determining powers codified into our legal system.
infspire
Which would greatly expanded under my reform.
Sabeena
In part as far as they are relatively authoritative contributors of shared social meaning.
infspire
This is all in response to your 1984 "Ministry of Truth" fallacy.
infspire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District
Sabeena
Not truth-determining. That goes too far.
x1bncwn has left IRC (Quit: Quit)
infspire
They have variable truth-determining powers in different contexts.
evermindN
facts and truths have to be related, right ?
x1bncwn has joined (~x1bncwn@2601:147:4000:e00:bdaa:ef40:49ea:7a4e)
Sabeena
There are various ways groups decide what is true. The reform you suggest seems to require some specific deciding body for powerful people's statements.
infspire
Sabeena: Courts would pursue assessments of guilt, as they're currently done.
Timur
reefdiver: after Æthelread, it was all downhill
Sabeena
Which justifies my characterization of it as sophomoric.
infspire
Except the 'powerful' would be under something akin to a perjury standard, even outside of court.
Sabeena
Who arbitrates the standard?
Timur
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
lockie has changed mode: +v x1bncwn
infspire
Courts. (I stated this 25 seconds before your question.)
Sabeena
It's unimplementable at best, and perhaps even fascist.
infspire
Why is it unimplementable?
Sabeena
I won't repeat myself.
infspire
Except the 'powerful' would be under something akin to a perjury standard, even outside of court.
infspire
We currently implement perjury, yes?
infspire
And this new standard would not require you to be under oath, just be 'powerful'.
Sabeena
Libel and slander already provide remedies for some falsehoods in the public sphere.
Sabeena
Those require standing.
infspire
So, the court wouldn't say, "You were under oath when you said X, which was false", but rather "You were powerful when you said X, which was false".
Timur
infspire: if you look at a history of litigation around freedom of speech -well, my read is it would be more problematic to implement such a program than not.
infspire
This reform wouldn't be akin to libel and slander, which require a particular harmed individual.
infspire
This proposal conceptualizes lying by powerful as 'attacks on civilization'.
Sabeena
You're suggesting its harms to society justifies remedies.
infspire
Timur: I was an ACLU free speech absolutist from a teenager to a few years ago.
infspire
I am well-versed for a layperson in the arguments.
Timur
Mimmie, Sabeena, et al.: 'ello
evermindN
i'm inclined to believe that truth making and fact finding are best conceived of as distributed processes of shared responsibility
Timur
x1b: there are authoritarian tendencies to be careful about from both left and right
Timur
yeah!! deeeez.
infspire
Sabeena: Lying harms society and individuals, often stochastically, which current legal standards are not well-equipped to handle outside of civil remedies, which are insufficient to stop bad actors.
Timur
x1b: please don't go all Derrida here
evermindN
fact checking should be something everybody does, not just farmed out to an expert
infspire
The lie, alone, would establish guilt. The level of punishment would be a different process.
infspire
evermindN: There are variable confidence levels for different notions. Some notions are well-served by centralized truth-determination and enforcement.
infspire
For example, whether global climate change is occurring, with an average increase in mean surface temperature.
infspire
And saying the wrong thing on that, while powerful, would result in severe penalties.
Timur
evermindN: problems there are: 1. with a well-funded machine, one can hire people to skew the results and 2. even absent that, factchecking presumes prior knowledge, sanity, discernment and critical thinking, which are not universal.
infspire
So, Amy Barrett would have been blocked from the federal bench, for example, for life for that statement.
infspire
(She indicated the evidence is unclear, which is a lie.)
infspire
Other notions are under active dispute in a society, and so it's much more difficult to lie about them.
infspire
These aren't material to my reforms.
infspire
The goal is primarily to stop obviously bad acts from obviously bad actors which is currently at pandemic levels.
infspire
I wonder if Sabeena is aware of the emotional program that she's been running in this conversation.
infspire
(She doesn't have a legitimate dissent, as evidenced by her posts.)
Timur
Mimmie: quite a list..
infspire
Two candidate emotional programs she is running: 1) she is intentionally trying to be obnoxious so that I will ignore her and she doesn't have to experience emotional volatility in her engagements with me and 2) being overwhelmed by past annoyances that she's violating her integrity.
infspire
The first would be reasonably mindful, the second would be less mindful.
infspire
I'm currently at 40% chance of ignoring her for 12 months.
infspire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBhgTJsob1o

Sabeena
Puerile: <+infspire> I wonder if Sabeena is aware of the emotional program that she's been running in this conversation.
infspire
evermindN: By analogy, the goal of my proposal isn't to find the optimal behavior in the COVID-19 pandemic, but to stop egregiously bad acts, e.g. refusal to wear masks in public.
infspire
Sabeena: You do not act this way with others in chat.
Sabeena
Revolutions, reform, any but the most tiny incrememntal changes would be impossible if the first time someone said something incongruent with current Truth they were found guilty and punished.
infspire
Strawman fallacy.
evermindN
every time i read the term 'optimal' in the context of public policy I feel sick to my stomache
infspire
Sabeena: I have addressed that fear-based response several times, each with nuance and skill.
infspire
You have the cognitive capacity to understand these points.
Sabeena
I only act this way in response to obnoxious ignore threats from the beginning and at various points of an argument.
infspire
Sabeena: Your opening post was highly objectionable.
Sabeena
Ignore me already, or actually listen.
Sabeena
Your proposal is highly objectionable.
infspire
No, it is not -- but it might not be best.
Sabeena
It's sophomoric at best.
Sabeena
I understand the intent, but don't say that fascit shit out loud.
cubes
!cubes cubes
cube
!topic cubes
lockie has set topic: cubes
infspire
I'm an anti-fascist.
cube
cubes?
cubes
cubes!
infspire
The policy is not remote fascist -- another fallacy.
Sabeena
I've lost interest.
infspire
Sabeena: I put you on ignore for twelve months.
infspire
I wish you love and peace.
cube
c u b e s
cubes was made for cubes
cube is made out of cubes
hey has left IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)
gowse has joined ([email protected])
lockie has changed mode: +v gowse
infspire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEQEOP1zh_c&ab_channel=Above%26Beyond

infspire
This is one of the best electronica albums, in my view.
cubes
<-
x1bncwn has left IRC (Ping timeout: 496 seconds)
infspire
I experienced more joy from listening to Group Therapy the first time than any other electronica album, I think, save perhaps In Search of Sunrise 3 by Tiesto or Trilogy by ATB.