AAC2 Ame vs Nerf - Tad Judgement

####Ame 1:

* MN hits people through metal, craters concrete. Weaker Spartans than Chief smash down metal doors, scale to big ape man crater w/ hammer.

* MN has pistol, knife. Chief has concrete piercing homing needles, hypersonic super radiation bullets. Anti-matter gun.

* Samus's best dura downs her for 4 panels. Armour cracks under minigun fire.

* Cae has no resistance to injury just regen. Team Ame messily dismember, bypassing this.

* Cae/Samus striking require a run-up. Striking w/ less telegraphing is much worse.

* Samus's cannon makes small craters. Don't matter here.

* MN can be hit through shitload of concrete/cars. Chief gets knocked through brick + concrete. Armour still intact after dozens of hits from concrete busting guns.

* MN has good injury tolerance. Worse Mjolnirs than Chief's take 30mm/50mm guns where future guns have better piercing than comparable modern cals.

* Chief takes 5k degree plasma. MN takes concrete slagging fireball.

Just looking at the art I'm unsure if this fire is slagging as much as concussively shattering the concrete. We'll see what Nerf has to say.

* Chief's armour is specifically good vs energy weapons like Samus's

* Same MN speed feats as last round.

* Chief base reaction time of 20ms, amplified by 5. Intercepts mach 10 rifle from 30m.

Comes out to clean 8ms reactions.

* Chief has slo mo perception and 66mph sprinting.

* Samus's feats are mostly catching missiles w/ unknown speed/acceleration. Samus herself calls them slow. The ricochet feat means the bullets have been significantly slowed.

* Cae's speed feats occur over unclear distances, unknown whether she's aim dodging.

* MN has precog computer.  Will know everything about his enemies including weaknesses. Can anticipate attacks well enough to even anticipate other precogs. Predicts fights a million times each time deadshot's guns chamber a round.

* MN resists & outranges Cae's precog.

* Cae's precog is based on chemical determinism. She can be wrong if opponents don't listen to their natural reflexes.

* Cortana hacks the entire tower's security for immediate scouting advantage.

* Cae has no feats for tracking stealthy foes like MN. Conversely, MN can't be surprised and Chief has super-senses + scanners that detect invisible foes + sees through walls.

* MN's portals give huge advantage for controlling the engagement. Can separate the enemy team. Chief has faster ground speed than opponents.

* Samus can't use comms without being hacked. Potential for Cortana to shut down her suit systems---Cortana can hack alien tech just fine.

* If injured, team Ame can disengage and let their healing factors work.

* Team Ame outrange the enemy by a lot.

* MN is incredibly hard to hit between speed & precog.

* Chief is super durable and resists all the enemy's attacks.

* Team Ame has better range, mobility, and information. MN can anticipate all of their potential advantages and warn Chief.

####Nerf 1:

* I already know Samus's deal.

* Cae predicts 100 moves ahead, busts concrete, regens impalement, bullet times, cuts cyborgs & embeds knives into stone.

* Team Nerf's attacks have much more collateral than Team Ame. Samus replicates Chief's door feat with much less effort. In general Team Nerf's striking is against stationary targets, not active in combat.

* "Four panels" doesn't mean anything in terms of time frame. Samus took the hit and recovered. Chief getting shot a bunch by plasma rifles produces no collateral damage but still KOd him.

* "How do you aimdodge a tackle?" Alita is fast. Instant mach acceleration.

* "Deadshot is admitted as slow. MN only had 1 in a million chances to dodge his bullets. If Deadshot was really a super bullet timer it would be significantly easier than 1 in a million to dodge.

Is he saying that? He says "there's only one way to make you scream Lawton, one in a million" and then he breaks Floyd's hands so he can't shoot. IDK what the 1 in a million is referring to here.

* MN is punching somebody through a hole that already exists.

This is true. The album is cropped so it's less obvious but in Nerf's link it's pretty obvious.

* MN is shooting the non-metal bits of cyborgs.

* The "bulletproof opponent" scaling is not the same Red Lantern.

* The gravity hammer monkey scaling is a grappling contest, not blocking a strike's impact.

* MN's striking w/out the metal wall feat is bad. Chief's striking w/out the gravity hammer is bad.

* Samus tanks shots from a minigun and isn't bitten through by giant monster teeth. MN's gun and knife are just "a gun and a knife." Chief's guns won't instantly penetrate.

* Samus has direct feat for resistant atomic disintegration. Chief's gun can never ever tag Cae. 3x speed scaling where she doesn't take a single hit.

* Cae is used to fighting people with massively better striking feats than Team Ame.

* Even if Chief tags her, his weapons will overpenetrate and she is fine with much larger holes than bullets put in her body.

* Chief has to juggle his arsenal unlike Samus who just switches the mode of her arm cannon. If he wants to throw a punch he has to ditch his weapons.

* Stat comparison. Samus standard blast destroys a robot, much better than that crater earlier. MN is floored by his durability interactions.

* Cae cuts through a concrete pillar with a busted sword. Samus shoots through bulletproof giant enemies' bodies. Chief resisting doesn't matter since both transfer blunt impact to him.

I would need to see a little more evidence to fully by the Samus beam as a piercing vector as opposed to a really strong energy "punch" but I agree with the analysis of Chief.

* MN loses if frozen by Samus. The fireball is Apollo body blocking it. Chief has no resistance to being frozen and Samus's beam is a prolonged exposure to heat rather than a brief flash of it from the plasma bullet.

* The covenant firing squad chief feat is bad. The weapons don't behave like they do in the 10m wall feat and don't blast chief back 10m, they just stagger him and he falls over.

* Cae moves her sword to intercept a bullet close to another person's head from short range. Fights & dodges supersonic opponents.

* Bullets lose at most 35% of their speed from ricochet, and Samus's shots outpace them. Accurately shooting small targets out of the air moving faster than Team Ame can.

* "Joey is at no point implies to be faster than Samus"

The pirate in this scene goes "wouldn't you be  more agile if you abandoned the brat" and Samus has to pull Joey out of the way of the attack. I think yeah that's a fair assessment.

* 13 pirate quickdraw feat, she'd have to shoot 13 times within 250 ms before any of them reacted. "If Cable can shoot your characters, Samus can."

* The 5x reaction multiplier is only for humans, not spartans. Diminishing returns.

* 30m in the Jackal feat does not refer to the distance between the POV and the shooter. The shooter is on a rooftop a ??? distance away. It also does not specify chief reacted after the gun was fired, he could've already been moving.

* Cae reads subconscious thoughts. Alita deliberately trying to be unpredictable still gets predicted so hard Cae styles on her by writing "death" with knives on the wall.

* MN resisting mind control does not imply resistance to mind reading. Having to resist means he's not immune.

* Cae finds robots/neural chips easy to read. Can read MN's fight computer.

* Free will exists in Alita. Cae is immortal and has never encountered someone she couldn't read.

* Cae is reading minds pt 2, it takes someone's body freezing up while their mind still intended to move forwards to throw her off. Cae still predicted Alita's intentions.

* Lots of scans of MN not knowing things about his enemies---his powers are fallible. "If your enemies are only a single nanosecond quicker than--you one contingency ahead of you--your enhancements are useless"

* Big antifeat of MN getting wrecked by Afterthought. He needed days of prep to work around his 5 second precog. Cae thinks 100 moves ahead not just 5 seconds.

* MN and Chief physically can't move fast enough to take Cae off guard if they try the portal ambush plan.

* The extradimensional satellite range for for MN is not a range feat, he needs to borrow somebody's eyes to physically look at the controls

* MN needs external support to teleport that isn't stipped in

* No source given for how many cameras are in the building.

* Team Nerf have no reason to use comms, and Samus's suit can't be hacked since it's biotech. EMP shielded anyway.

####Ame 2:

* MN can decapitate people with strikes in active combat scenarios.

* Chief was playing possum in the firing squad feat.

* MN moves his body out of the way of bullets that are about to hit him midair. He is fast. Cae could have initiated dodges before Alita threw her attacks by anticipating them.

* MN kicks a metal electrical pole in half, scoop slams opponent through concrete floor, trenches himself through dirt.

* Samus replicating Chief's door feat doesn't matter bc that was a 2.5x weaker suit.

You know now that it's being repeated I don't think I've seen a linked scan proving this suit is that much weaker.

* Chief intercepting the gravity hammer mid swing implies he's exerting an equal counterforce.

* Chief can wield a 400kg armoured atv as a bludgeon, warming the chassis.

* Spartans turn concrete into dust under their feet as they run.

* Samus never shows ability to take repeated hits w/out being staggered/downed and having to take time to get back up. Her wall feat is also dispersed over wider area than if she were punched through it.

* Cae gets pulped on contact with either of Ame's team.

* Minigun cracks + downs Samus. "GUH… URRK!" panel. Carbine + Needler are comparable if not better.

* The big monster that bites Samus has no feats for how sharp the teeth are

I think the point here was in the context of Nerf claiming MN's knives were just "knives"

* Bullets of same cal impacting with same amount of force penetrate bodies differently based on their design. The main advantage of the radiation rounds and exploding needles require them to lodge in bodies, so it doesn't make sense they'd be designed to overpenetrate.

* Antimatter works by merging positive & negative matter, destroying both in process, not breaking down atomic bonds.

* Samus's charge shot takes plural seconds to charge. Most of the uncharged shots are < Team Ame's dura.

* Samus beams aren't piercing vectors.

Yeah.

* Discrepancy in Hunter Cannon projectile behaviour is due to how dif models of armour shields absorb the bolts.

* More scaling to weaker armours.

* Samus's bombs are slow. Midnighter can reflect tank rounds, could easily knock Samus's missiles back at her. Samus can't use them if Cae is trying to close to melee without fear of blowing her up.

* Spartan takes laser grid that burns away a large alien. Midnighter context---fireball door was open to the surface of the sun.

* Samus's ice beam creates much thinner ice coating than Midnighter got stuck in. Team Ame can flex out of it. Ice beam is nebulous speed anyway.

* Chief has a forcefield the ice would need to get around anyway.

* Chief deflects StA missile and Hunter Cannon, sees world in slow mo.

* Jackal rifle feat is 30m to building.

* Why would Halsey bring up the 5x reaction enhancement to a Spartan if it didn't apply to them.

* Spartans specifically note it amps their speed

* Bullet feat isn't just a ricochet, it's a full 180 degree redirection by a punch, not travelling at same speed they were fired at.

* The space pirates were too stunned to try and shoot. Samus wasn't moving faster than they could react because their reactions were stalled by surprise.

* Reiterating---missiles have no known speed

* MN's precog gives him paths to desired outcomes. The only weakness it has is that he needs to give it time to run those scenarios. The far starting distance gives him that time.

* Battle computer gives him only the direct info he needs to win, not the "why." This is why he knows where to tap the chimeras for pressure point takedowns, but not who B'Wana Beast is and how his powers work.

* Homunculi feat is specific fictional material weakness not accessible to Samus/Cae.

* Context---MN got an upgrade to his computer. This is probably why he can't tell who's on the other end of the phone. It's him from the future.

* MN's computer is fast enough to run a million scenarios every time a round is chambered in a machinegun.

* MN tags somebody who runs as fast as the Flash. Flash reacts in femtoseconds. Much faster than Cae's feat vs Alita.

* 1:1 comparison of MN's abilities to Caerula's. MN does everything Caerula can except he predicts further into the future and across large distances---tracking monsters by the remote signal controlling them

* A much stronger telepath than Cae can't breach MN's mind without resistance. Cae will struggle.

* Cae reading MN or Chief's computers aren't viable bc their processing is too fast for her to keep up with.

* Chief's nervous system is irrelevant, Cortna and his armour bypass it to react for him, throwing of Cae's biology based prediction.

* Chief's computer is also not equivalent in makeup to the standard computer circuitry Cae reads. Liquid crystal.

* Cae feat is for reading subconscious movements, not thoughts. MN would initiate a sneak attack before even entering the portal. No space for Cae to predict.

* The spaceship feat is unclear and bad. No indication how much she can make out of the ship, if she can see it at all. No bearing on how well she can detect stealthy humans through walls.

* Cae can't see through walls. Chief can, and around corners.

* MN can hear someone inside a castle from across the moat.

* Pearl has state of the art security system. Lots of cameras implied from that.

* MN's teleportation is stipped to work like in n52. Nerf's carrier scrutiny doesn't hold water.

* Chief/MN still outrange Team Nerf.

* Cortana can interface with alien technology that does not use the same basis for computing as human stuff. If Samus's suit has software it can be hacked.

* Chief having to stow/draw gear doesn't matter bc he has magnetic holsters. Even if caught in close range with the rifle it's sturdy enough to use as a club.

####Nerf 2:

* Chief and MN take "several panels" to recover as well

* None of Team Ame's feats compare to Samus's striking/dura

* The street light MN feat is bad and dumb. The other feats are bad. The scoop slam doesn't even look like concrete it's just wood and it features him being pierced by glass.

I think there's a layer of concrete or plaster or something under the planks you can see in the cross section of the hole but I agree it's not that good.

* The motorcycle feat is bad. Compare video of car flattening like a cartoon against concrete.

I think maybe there's something to be said for this being a military vehicle from the future but that's on Ame to prove.

* Door feat doesn't say it's warped just blown off hinges. Also no indication of whether it was a strike or a weapon that knocked it off.

* The hammer strike is not caught at full momentum. "And again, dirt."

Yeah.

* Caerula is just clearly strong. Even when younger/weaker she's > MN.

* Samus was only pretending to be hurt by the minigun to keep the guy distracted until Joey saved his hostages.

* It takes a lot of shots from the minigun before Samus's armour even begins to dent. Chief having comparable output does not matter if not comparable rate of fire.

* Needler is bad. "The shard ammunition has little risk of causing dangerous hull perforations given that the crystal ricochets off most surfaces."

* Chief has never used the binary rifle. Chief can't exploit range because of the shape of the map. He can't shoot through the floors. "Every fight is up close in this map layout."

* The rifle only has two shots. Even if it hits, it needs to penetrate before the antimatter can be released to disintegrate something. If he misses or fails to penetrate twice that wincon is gone.

* Samus feat is not bonds between atoms, but atoms themselves being disintegrated.

* Cae has won an entire fight with her guts spilling out of her, organ shots don't matter. Alita vamps are immune to disease, and even if she got cancer from the super radiation bullets she carries futuristic medicine that insta-cures.

* Reiterating - Cae is fast.

* If the Pirate feat is the beams blinding/stunning them then the same would happen to Team Ame. Chief is blinded a full 3 seconds by this.

* Pirates were aiming at Samus and got the order to shoot before she fired. She wouldn't have blinded/stunned everyone around her.

* "her beams make individual sonic booms"

I'm gonna be real I think this is a non-productive route of argumentation. A thing going "boom" off-panel could be a trillion other things.

* Ricochets can fly directly back at the shooter (Edwin Sarkissian video).

I think I'm leaning towards the ricochet feat being real.

* MN is not a bullet timer who also has precog, he is a man who needs precog to do anything against bullets. 1 in a million ways to dodge Deadshot.

* MN is not hitting a faster enemy. He says he can move as fast as the Mercury Mantle, but only in short one second bursts, which is how he tags him.

* If the Mercury Mantle really scales to flash MN is OOT.

* Halo gun ROF sucks. Once per 66 ms for an "impressively fast" gun.

* Mjolnir armour cutting out a superhuman nervous system would be less of a boost than cutting out a normal one. Chief doesn't have 5x boosted reactions.

* Chief gets hit by bullets a lot.

* The missile feat is from too close a distance to have reached its full speed.

* MN will get caught by the volley of knives and his doors aren't combat applicable per justification.

* Samus's beams are small, fast, have mass, similar to bullets

Are they small?

* Chief wall dura feat is wood.

* Tunnel feat isn't concrete, isn't making a new hole, but rather pushing through an existing fissure.

* Direct hit from the cannon would be lethal.

* Samus ice beam fully encases knight who scales to her speed. MN gets incapped.

* Mjolnir shield doesn't block temperatures.

* Plasma beam is concentrated. Mgalekgolo laser grid only burns flesh, not metal, still hurts the spartan.

* Chief can only see through walls within short range and it doesn't improve his ability to fire through walls.

* Samus shoots into a volcano's core. 1-10km deep.

I don't see where it says she reaches all the way down into the core.

* MN will go for straightforward punch over trying to outrange with his gun - "I don't sneak Dick, when someone challenges me I know on the bastard's front door"

* Doors get destroyed by grenades. Would be telefragged or stranded if he tried to use one to escape.

* Double standard. Samus's beam feats are visibly bigger than the damage Chief's gun does to the pillar but Ame says the former are bad and the latter are good.

* Samus's bombs make staying at range untenable. Her bombs have huge radius. Will chip down Chief's shields and blind him.

* Samus jumps really far, rolls fast enough to catch a fleeing vehicle.

* When people know what MN is going to do his precog falls apart.

* Resisting mind control by willpower =/= preventing mind reading. He's not keeping them out of his head, he's keeping them from *controlling* it.

* MN knew he was gonna refight Afterthought without needing to use precog. He doesn't have the same luxury of foreknowledge here.

* Disputes long distance planning in the train scene

I think the intention is that since MN can trace the signals to the next metro station on the line, it means his battle computer works out to those distances.

* MN's computer doesn't work on things he can't detect. Cae's power has no measurable basis other than "she's a vampire lol." Failed to detect precogs twice.

* Chief's armour doesn't bypass neural impulses, they read and translate them into movement quicker than the body could. There is still something for Cae to read.

* Modern computer processers make hundreds of billions of operations per second, and Cae can read future computers.

* Cae keeps track of every air molecule in a building. Implies ability to keep track of trillions of individual things.

* Even brains do 100s of billions of signals per second. Cae will not be overwhelmed.

* Cae's ability is always on---invisible guard ambush scene.


* If MN tries the door ambush the door gets blown up and he gets telefragged.

* The residential suits of the Pearl are unlikely to have cameras for privacy reasons. Even if they were present Cae could use her detection to spot and avoid camera LoS.

* Neither Chief's scanners or MN's hearing provide as much info as Cae's ability. Information advantage still goes to team Nerf.

* Samus's suit is entirely made of her own DNA. It's practically one of her body's organs. Not a computer that can be hacked. It having a UI doesn't change that.

####Ame 3:

* Cars can break through walls actually.

* MN vs MN fight collapses the entire house.

* MN craters floor with a flying stomp.

* Finally citation for 2.5x weaker claim.

* The hammer again.

It is kinda true what Nerf said that Ame's been fighting for his life this whole round for a dirt crater.

* Spartan bursts through brick.

* The other two disputed feats again

* Chief & MN take a lot of hits before they go down.

* "Similar Red Lanterns are pretty bullet proof"

Why should we assume they're similar is the contention Nerf made

* D'Angelo's bullets are featless energy bullets. Still dent her armour. D'Angelo is not repeatedly hitting the same parts of the armour. No context on how long it takes the suit to fix itself.

* Chief can pick up the binary rifle in the game.

* The arena is not as enclosed as claimed. 7 storey mall, 19 storey garden. Could even just jump off the roof and shoot on the way down.

Feat link is for the door nullifying the fall is broken.

* The binary rifle is 2 shots per magazine, not how many rounds Chief is carrying total.

* If the bullet casing fractures without penetrating it's still peppering Samus with antimatter.

* Alita vamps die to heart destruction.

* Radiation is not a disease. It destroys organic cells, which Cae is still made of.

* Samus's normal strikes are much weaker than the concrete wall feat.

* Samus beams have large surface area they're not piercing.

* The ice beam only landed bc the knight tried to block it, which meant he was in contact for extended period. Glancing shot only makes thin ice crust. Beam is still slow

* "In this era he had no lifting feats, but the version I am running does"

Is there a reason he got stronger?

* MN was in contact with the sun fireball for longer than it was with the concrete it busted.

* The wood in the sentence Nerf points out refers to the floorboards. The walls of this building are stone.

* "This is a Spartan slamming through a damage concrete wall"

Just reposting the same feat doesn't counter-evidence Nerf's interpretation. I could easily see either interp being true. I'd need to see more context to decide.

* Direct hit would be strong enough to kill bc it's a 3m wide glassed crater no duh

* Laser grid burnt away more than just flesh---hunter was wearing metal armour and carrying big metal shield.

* Ame repeats himself about the piercing resistance of the armour.

* Samus can't hurt MN and has no counter. Cae can't down MN with striking and can't pierce Chief with sword.

* Samus's missiles aren't mach. Those aren't sonic booms. The missiles have unquantified acceleration. Even if we assumed mach, from such close range, wouldn't have time to reach full speed.

* The ricochet is Joey stopping the bullet's momentum and punching them back with whatever speed is produced by the force of his punch unrelated to their original muzzle velocity.

* You can't claim Samus could replicate Joey's feats without evidence.

* Modern Mjolnir doesn't have the shield blinding issue.

* MN can fight blind.

* Cae's bullet feat is undermined by her immediately saying "Once the bullet is in your sight, it's too late to act"

* MN moves out of the way of bullets in flight in the Deadshot feat.

* Deadshot can tag mach speedsters.

* MN tagging Mercury Mantle is his anticipating movement not matching speed.

* Reposts tank feat

* Needler puts a bunch of needles in the air at once. RoF 1) doesn't matter 2) Chief's guns are alien guns more advanced than humans.

* Since armour enhances baseline movement, higher baseline = scales faster.

* All feats have mitigating context. Chief gets hit by bullets a lot bc he's bulletproof and doesn't have to dodge.

* Plane is in motion. UNSC planes fly at 170 m/s so baseline velocity + acceleration. IRL missiles accelerate quickly.

* At such close range, even if missile was slow, still a good feat.

* Chief can see through walls at short range, yes, but team Nerf can't do this at all.

* Samus only hits the big pool of lava at the top of the caldera, not all the way to the core. Other feat is visually small distance. No feats for accuracy at these ranges.

* The strong beams could be charged shots. The big monsters are only bulletproof, no evidence for blunt force dura.

Also they seem hollow.

* Comparing the carbine vs the pillar favourably to the beam's small crater is bc the former is piercing and the latter is a blunt impact.

* MN can borrow one of Chief's guns if they're both caught at range. MN for sure takes pot shots at range when he has guns.

* Samus's movement is unknown vehicle of unknown speed.

* MN's precog was upgraded. Context for prior failures.

* MN scans brains, can see enhancements down to cellular level.

* The Holt Cells are from a superhuman whose power is being completely invisible to technology. Team Nerf don't have anything similar.

* Chief's armour bypasses nervous system with liquid crystal.

It still seems like there is an initial neural impulse that the crystal picks up and acts on.

* MN has weird enhanced biology and "a telepath can't read his mind"

As Nerf did point out the scans in question said he was resisting being mind controlled, not having his mind *read*

* Cortana doing 5 billion things in a heartbeat is not like humans doing subtle data intake

* Caerula doesn't specify sensing "every" air molecule just "the flow" of air molecules

* Caerula is limited to the room she's in.

It's still a big room comprising multiple storeys.

* Caerula doesn't make any actions implying the bullets are in slow motion compared to her, just feels in the moment as though they are.

* Samus is the opposite of sneaky.

* The blast that disrupted the door was massive. None of Samus's explosives are fast enough to intercept an already initiated portal ambush. Portals also don't telefrag---that guy was just cut in half.

####Nerf 3:

* Cae's feats aren't outliers. Her feats are all good and have more collateral than Team Ame.

* Rebar makes concrete 2x as durable. None of the brick/wood/drywall interactions are relevant. Team Ame's damage output doesn't match Samus's dura.

* The scan Ame uses to claim 2.5x armour dura doesn't say that.

* The energy bullets are as viable piercing as Ame's energy carbine and needler

I think the needler crystals are like, transparently a sharp physical object, but the comparison to the carbine is good. If it's piercing, the minigun should be too.

* Samus does get shot in the same place by D'Angelo.

* Samus's suit self-repair is fast enough to restore her sliced arm-cannon mid-fight

* Chief can't have a Binary Rifle if he's never used it. By stipping the games, which are the only points he ever has a binary rifle, Ame also stips the rifle.

* Even if Chief had enough guns to loan one to MN, MN prefers fists in character

* Rifle described as "burning" things - Samus super resistant to heat vector

* Samus can easily make big explosions that match what disrupted the door in the Afterthought fight.

* Chart saying vampires die to stake thru heart is in universe, based on extremely limited data with so few century+ old vampire specimens.

* Similarly aged vampires don't die to stabs through brain or heart.

* Radiation poisoning can still be fought off by immune system, so immunity to disease still implies resistance.

* If anything the punched bullets would move even faster than just ricochet due to added momentum. Tennis ball comparison.

I don't know if I buy this. It is absolutely possible to hit a tennis ball back at less speed than it was hit at you.

I think the meaningful difference between a ricochet and a reflect is that a ricochet retains the original projectile speed (in this case, the bullet's muzzle velocity), just rebounded and reduced whereas if I strike it hard enough to overcome its momentum I am reducing it to zero and then imparting my own unknown quantity of force.

65% of a bullet's speed is a lot more impressive than "me punching a bullet across a room as hard as I can"

* Samus is faster than Joey.

I believe this.

* Mach cone stuff

Again I'm sorry but I really don't believe the intentionality of these artistic flourishes as mach cones without further evidence. I think they are probably just there to look cool. If there was any context other than how they are drawn to assume this is the case I could be swayed but as is I do not think the missiles have quantifiable speed.

* The bullet feat happened before she got her precog.

* "Younger Caerula doesn't struggle with bullets because she can't move her limbs fast enough [...] Caerula can't move her limbs at supersonic speeds"

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get from this.

So she can move her limbs fast enough to deflect bullets but she can't move her limbs at supersonic speeds. That seems contradictory. Is there a typo here?

Whatever man look she's deflecting bullets she's fast I think there has never been any point in this debate I didn't believe that.

* Caerula struggled with bullets only until her sensory perception caught up.

This seems right.

* "Caerula can cross a decent distance and perform a complex action before a SMG makes a second shot"

I'm uncertain whether the third panel is really a muzzle flash. I'm pretty sure this might just be the glint of Caerula's weapon. Regardless I do already believe Caerula is fast.

* 10ms Qu Tsang fight.

* Why is the Boomerang guy Deadshot scales to mach?

* 1 in a million implies this is the fringe of what MN's precog allows him to do. His top speed is bullet timing where Team Ame performs fast actions more casually/regularly.

* Afterthought is slow and pretty much admits he'd have to intercept a shooter before he cocked the hammer (rather than dodging a bullet)

* The "one second" statement in the Mercury Mantle fight implies poorer than argued speed for MN. 125 actions per second if he was consistently 8 m/s reactions.

* We should not take the femtosecond scaling seriously

* Chief's ROF is conceded. If needler is fast because it's made by aliens, then Samus gets to be fast too.

* Any hit Chief takes depletes a limited shield. He has no reason to stand there and take gunfire if he was able to dodge it.

* The plane was not going top speed. Even a fast accelerating missile won't hit mach at those distances.

* "the fastest he has ever moved"

Yeah

* Caerula swinging her sword hard enough to smash a pillar will stagger chief even if it doesn't cut him. She will chain attacks to stagger her opponents over and over.

* Samus easily switches between arm cannon modes without choice paralysis.

* "The walls are the same material than the windows. You don't make concrete windows"

I'm not sure what you mean.

* The concrete feat uses up a shield. Team Ame have hugely more collateral than this.

* The tunnel feat hasn't gotten any better.

* A tank shell is larger than bullets and still a piercing vector.

TBF this is because the tank round discards the outer shell once it exits the barrel leaving basically a spear point.

* Talking down MN's durability.

* Thermoregulating is not fast enough to stop a cartoon mortal kombat ass sub-zero freeze ray that makes you brittle and shatters you.

* Using the street light as leverage to prop up a car isn't a multi-tonne feat since he's mostly letting the car's momentum do the work.

* Caerula precog reiteration - "Midnighter loses because he can not plan for a power he does not know she has"

* Scanning Caerula's cells will not reveal she can predict him. It didn't work on Afterthought either.

I think this is like, really damning. The fact the battle computer demonstrably faces a worse precog and Midnighter gets totally floored by him revealing his ability really hammers home this isn't a comfortable matchup.

* There are much weirder modified creatures in the Alita tournament than MN and the person who knows Caerula best says she outmatches all of them.

* Caerula is able to process a lot. Alita robots think fast. The text better supports Nerf's interp of the air molecules. Cortana does not perform these operations passively and Chief needs to ask her to do so.

* there was no lava in the volcano caldera, Samus was shooting through a hole she'd blown to the core with her bombs to reactivate the volcano.

* The room where Caerula senses everything is 8 storeys tall.

* Doors make people violently ill when they're not used to them. Chief will puke his guts out if he tries.

* Explosives are bad for Team Ame

* Caerula is a wanted criminal, avoiding cameras/detection is second nature.

* Samus can and has snuck up on people and caerula's guidance will help avoid detection.

* Reiterating---Samus's armour is biotech, not hackable.

####Results:

This debate really got to be circling the drain by the end of it, so there's been a wealth of discussion surrounding roughly the same few groupings of feats.

**Things I Bought:**

* Caerula is just fast. There are enough instances of her being fast, with or without precog, that I think this is indisputable. She is in fact the fastest person in this fight.
* Caerula's precog works as outlined. She can probably get a read on Midnighter & Chief's computers.
* Samus is faster than Joey. I think based on their interactions and that direct quote where the space pirate points out she'd be faster if she didn't have to keep saving him from attacks he couldn't dodge, this is clearly the intent.
* Samus & Caerula are stronger than Chief is durable.
* Samus is more durable than Midnighter or Chief are strong.
* Samus's suit can withstand Team Ame's piercing.
* Samus's beams have fine range, and uncharged damage output is okay if not spectacular.
* Samus's esoteric beams are meaningfully threatening.
* Midnighter is the most durable person here to blunt impacts.
* Midnighter is a bullet timer. The tank feat proves that either way and he does in fact move his body relative to bullets about to hit him mid-flight. I don't think him tauntingly saying "there's only one way to make you scream lawton" implies accomplishing this is pushing him to his limit.
* Midnighter will use his guns.
* Chief is reasonably fast. The mach 10 gun from 30 metres does it for me. I think Nerf is probably correct that we can't be 100% sure when he started moving, but the gun fired while he wasn't in a person's POV and then he was completely blocking it, so at minimum he moved a full body length in that span.
* Chief has no problem juggling weapons.
* There are locations on this map to press ranged firefights.
* Midnighter and Caerula's ability to detect the enemy has reasonably comparable range, but Caerula's senses are more fine grained in the info she picks up at distance.

**Things I Don't Buy:**

* Samus's beams are probably not piercing vectors.
* Samus's missiles have no concrete speed.
* Samus's beams have ??? speed but are probably not slow. I do not know how fast the ricochet was, other than the implication the bullets were still moving fast enough to hurt the barman.
* Samus's bombs and missiles could probably blow up the doors, but Ame is right that they are probably too slow as projectiles to intercept them mid-ambush.
* Midnighter struggles against another precog as fast and skilled as Caerula.
* Pretty much all of Ame's DC speed scaling---to Flash, the Mercury Mantle, Boomerang Jr, did not hold water and Midnighter came out of it looking worse than if Ame has stuck to the objective feats. The "one second" quote from the Mercury fight is especially bad.
* Chief is not strong enough to contend with Samus or Caerula. Ame having to fight for his life to defend scaling to a dirt crater was really rough.
* Chief's blunt durability is less stellar than argued.
* Chief doesn't get his Binary Rifle. If you stipped out the appearances where he gets it, there's not really a sound way for him to have access to it.
* Chief can hack the building security, but not Samus's suit.

**Nerf Wins.**

Nerf's team really suffers from the loss of Midnighter's main striking feat and he never really gave me an adequate replacement. As it stands Midnighter is still really durable, but lacks the ability to press a strong wincon in melee against Team Nerf with the feats he has left.

Caerula is the standout threat here. Midnighter's demonstrated struggle vs lesser precogs means it's uphill for him to plan around her. She is too fast to be tagged easily at range or in melee, and is strong enough to oneshot Midnighter with her piercing or stunlock Chief with chained strikes.

Ame argues a ranged advantage, but with the caldera feat context at the end, I am reasonably satisfied with Samus's ability to fight back at range and her beams and explosives threaten Team Ame considerably more than their options threaten her back. Her suit's self-repair and ammo regen means a prolonged firefight wears down Team Ame faster than Team Nerf, leaving them without a clear advantage at either range or in melee.

I don't think it's inconceivable for Team Ame to win this, I just think Caerula is too potent an X factor for locking down close range for them to flourish.