dsr95

LC Doubles Quickban #1 (Murkrow, Swirlix, Yanma)

Mar 27th, 2017
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  1. The LC Doubles Council: Merritty (TL), Memoric, Rhydonphilip, dsr95, Nido-rus
  2. Current suspects that were discussed and voted on: Murkrow, Swirlix, Yanma
  3.  
  4. ____________________________
  5. MURKROW (BAN: 5 ; NO BAN: 0)
  6. ____________________________
  7.  
  8. dsr95: Murkrow is the best Pokemon in the metagame, and the face of it. 19 speed, amazing attacking stats both on the physical, and the special side (and amazing offensive typing), while also being able to reach 25/14/12 bulk or 23/14/13 is no laughing matter. It's too versatile, as its able to use Berry Juice, Eviolite, or Life Orb along with its plethora of moves that allow it to gain advantage in different situations. Tailwind allows it and the team to bypass setup sweepers and weather, Taunt can ruin Trick Room setters other than Spritzee, Substitute can put it into a safe position to pressure opponents, and there's a few other options such as Featherdance and Haze, which serve as good support purposes in certain situations. (And with all of these being +1 Priority moves, you can't just outspeed it and prevent it from using the moves in the first place).
  9. tl;dr too strong, too fast, WAY too versatile, its basically guaranteed to do its job because of its priority status moves. [BAN]
  10.  
  11. Rhydon: When you make a team, it doesn't matter at what point of the team you are on, there is a set for Murkrow that can solve any current issue you have. Ranging from Offensive Life Orb, Support with Taunt/Tailwind/Rain/Squash/Feather Dance/Thunder Wave, Set up with Calm Mind or Z-Mirror Move and to top it all off, the majority of these sets can be combined. If this thing isn't broken it's overcentralizing to every aspect of the metagame. Ban it.
  12.  
  13. Memoric: Murkrow's simply too good of a Pokemon for this metagame. Blessed with the highest offensive potential in the tier and nifty support options such as Tailwind, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Rain Dance, and Haze paired with Prankster, it's capable of both pressuring and OHKOing foes and providing near unstoppable support that's breaking this bad boy. With a Life Orb set, it becomes an offensive monster that KOes pretty much everything while still having near-unstoppable support options, Tailwind being one of them which, if used, can pretty much invalidate any form of outplaying it offensively; with a bulkier set, it can live numerous attacks, last long with Prankster Roost, annoy foes and enable teammates with various support options, and still have respectable offenses. It's incredibly versatile, which isn't necessarily bad; the fact is that it's too good at doing many different things at once is what breaks this bad boy.
  14.  
  15. Nido-rus: Yeah murkrow is really dumb. Priority tailwind, good bulk, amazing offenses, amazing speed. It can do essentially every role better than every other mon around. Best TW setter, best all-out attacker, best supporter, etc.
  16.  
  17. Merritty: Murkrow's main issue is that it fulfills virtually every role you could need in the meta. Need a fast and strong attacker? LO Krow's your guy - from both ends of the spectrum. Looking for incredible support with priority involved on a non-passive mon? Murkrow even pulls off a defensive set quite well, living hits it has no right to and having priority recovery that removes more than half its weaknesses. While Murkrow isn't unbeatable, it's incredibly centralizing, nigh on irreplaceable on most teams, and ultimately quite unhealthy for the metagame. It needs a ban.
  18.  
  19. ____________________________
  20. SWIRLIX (BAN: 4 ; NO BAN: 0)
  21. ____________________________
  22.  
  23. dsr95: Swirlix is the most potent sweeper in the metagame. It has a great typing, and 2 sweeping sets (CG+CM and BD) that strike from either thespecial side, or the physical side, which makes Swirlix pretty much dangerous simply because you don't know which set it's carrying until it's too late. Due to it's bulk, it's able to tank a lot of strong non-SE attacks, as only a few Pokemon are able to brute-force their way into Swirlix's plan to sweep (For example, LO Murkrow can OHKO with Brave Bird). Being able to multiply its defense by 2.5x, while also using Calm Mind, and doubling its speed upon consuming Berry Juice is too overwhelming, and to top it off, it has passive recovery with Draining Kiss, and Flamethrower can get rid of Foongus, Pawniard, and Magnemite. The support needed to carry Swirlix into a sweep is bar to none, as all it really needs it to switch in against Pokemon that cannot OHKO it, and its decent 23/13/13 bulk paired with Berry Juice gives it the longevity to take 2 or 3 hits. Whether it's CG+CM or BD Swirlix, both sets are able to pretty much turn a game around in an instant, with little support.
  24. tl;dr doubling your speed, while quadrupling your attack is op. doubling your speed while almost tripling your speed, raising your SpA and SpD, and having passive STAB recovery is also op [BAN]
  25.  
  26. Rhydonphilip: While you can pressure it to not set up, it will be able to set up with very little needed support (simple Fake out, maybe a Rage Powder or to the sake of the argument just having Intimidate could make it difficule to prevent it from setting up). Belly Drum is instant pressence; instantly a threat even before it set up and can grant a massive win-con reguardless of your team formation with the sole exception of Trick Room. Calm Mind/Cotton Guard while akward is just the biggest pain in conjuration as it alowes it to set up more slowely and then retaliate with recovery, different coverage while still abusing the insane speed tier. Idk how this wasn't banned with Sneasle. Ban
  27.  
  28. Memoric: ban swirlix. when i was first approached about this bad boy right around when this tier was just being started up, my initial reaction was "hell naw don't ban this, try to test it first zzz." After some time of playing with it, I'd see that this thing's probably too good at the things it does. With all the set up it can do, along with a boost from unburden, Swirlix can be an absurd sweeper. The Calm Mind + Cotton Guard set in particular is too dangerous; given the slightest chance, that thing can go off and pretty much dictate a game as can be seen in this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/azure-gen7lcdoubles-35668 (it ultimately lost, but the fact that it got so much traction with so little room is a testament to its absurdness). The set's already bulkier than average; with all the boosts along with Unburden and some recovery from Draining Kiss, it can simply be prepostrous. The BD is unhealthy to a lesser extent; instead of lasting long, it's more of an eraser to whatever it's hitting, and it can hit a lot thanks again to Unburden. The insane presence it can have with the power, bulk, and speed it can easily attain is simply undesirable.
  29.  
  30. Merritty: Swirlix at first glance seems not broken. It needs to set up to be truly dangerous, but the issue is that both sets are extremely dangerous in their own rights and in completely different ways. The Belly Drum set, while generally inferior to the CGCM set, is absolutely capable of sweeping teams due to how hard and fast it hits despite its mediocre coverage, and is very easy to set up. The Cotton Guard + Calm Mind set is where Swirlix really shines though. Swirlix is capable of single handedly devastating teams with this set, having just fine coverage with Draining Kiss and Flamethrower, and frankly Draining Kiss is utterly ludicrous. While the base power is somewhat lacking, the recovery Swirlix gets is absolutely absurd in conjunction with its boosted defenses, and Unburden means that Swirlix has all this along with insane speed. Short of running HazeKrow on every team or extremely high offensive pressure (which itself can be bypassed due to Follow Me or Rage Powder support) it's nearly impossible to deal with successfully once it begins setting up. Overall Swirlix is broken and brings nothing of value to the metagame. Ban.
  31.  
  32. _________________________
  33. YANMA (BAN: 4; NO BAN: 0)
  34. _________________________
  35.  
  36. dsr95: Yanma doesn't have much power and it doesn't have much bulk, and it's typing is defensively weak. However, its Compound Eyes set has little-to-no answers that aren't Fake Out (Yanma can just Protect) or a Choice Scarfer (In which case your scarfer may lose vs Speed Boost Yanma) thanks to Yanma's blazing 20 speed. The momentum that the Compound Eyes set brings to the Yanma player is also ridiculous, not only having the fastest speed tier in the metagame, but also having access to U-turn, allowing Yanma to back out instantly after putting something to sleep. Speed control helps vs Yanma but getting Trick Room with Yanma on the field is pretty much impossible if it's HypnoYanma, and stuff like Tailwind won't even outspeed the Speed Boost set, while the HypnoYanma is still able to put Pokemon with speed control moves to sleep, unless it's something like Murkrow's Tailwind. The fall of Fletchling has also contributed to Yanma being an even bigger threat, since it can't be swiftly removed by a priority Acrobatics anymore.
  37. tl;dr 20 speed accurate sleep with u-turn and the ability to run different options like substitute or speed boost set to avoid the few ways to play around it is pretty much broken [BAN]
  38.  
  39. Rhydonphilip: Hypnosis(80%) + Good offense + 20 speed is nice, little downsides, most ways of dealing with it bold down to scarfed pokemon/Tailwind/Weather and fake out pressure. Speed Boost sets just joke on faster scarfers, Weather abusers and essentially any tailwind user below 15 all after just 1 protect. It doesn't have the most insane wallbreaking strength or set up but it doesn't need to for the pressence it proposes against offense. Ban
  40.  
  41. Memoric: ban yanma. This thing is so good at invalidating checks and just plain creating momentum it's ridicilous. With the highest Speed in the entire metagame and Compound Eyes Hypnosis, it can pretty put to sleep anything it wants; with proper threat analysis, this can simply gain so much momentum as this makes 2v1 positions wherein Yanma and its partner are going to have notable room to operate. Yanma is pretty adept at enabling teammates to be bigger threats than they should be as it can sleep checks and give them room to operate. Sleep Clause isn't limiting this much; having just one mon asleep is already a bad position in itself, and 1-2 turns is only really what it takes to swing a game to one's favor as this is as much time is needed to bring in a teammate to capitalize on the free turns. A fast sleeper is inherently dangerous as it can pretty much stop anything from doing any move the turn it actually sleeps and likely the next turn as well. The Hypnosis puts so much pressure on opponents to play around it or have one more way of quickly dealing with Yanma as it itself has presence as a fast and decently bulky offensive threat that's also capable of capitalizing on the free turns.
  42.  
  43. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/azure-gen7lcdoubles-32014 - this game should show what I'm trying to say. In the midgame, the +2 Pawniard is inflicting heavy pressure on my team, which in turn should free up its teammate to safely apply additional pressure as Pawniard commands more respect; this can be seen in how a Zigzagoon managed to BD on my face and I was, in layman's terms, "fucked." However, with Yanma being a savage that it is, it managed to finesse the game by using Hypnosis to force the 2v1's throughout the whole mid- to endgame and seal the game late in my victory. My opponent didn't have much counterplay to it as he had no way of stopping Yanma from invalidating his mon from being a threat and making room for me to claw back in; the best he could do was hope for me to miss (I did, but if you watched the game you'd know that by itself wasn't enough.
  44.  
  45. Aside from the Sleep thing, I don't have much of an opinion of it. That one aspect of it is simply just gamebreaking. Outside of Compound Eyes Hypnosis, it'd probably still a top-tier threat with its high speed and fastest Tailwind in the game, with which it can work like a mellowed-out version of Murkrow. Still, with an aspect of it being really bullshit, that's pretty much just icing at this point and thus Yannie here should be banned.
  46.  
  47. Merritty: Yanma is honesty the least centralizing of the three suspects, but definitely isn't too far behind in terms of being broken. The biggest issue is Yanma's accurate, fast, and not powder based sleep. Preventing Yanma from doing what it does best - dictating the flow of the game while it's on the field - is extremely hard to prevent due to its high speed tier and ability to threaten virtually every pokemon in the game. While Sleep Clause helps slightly, Yanma is still not passive outside its ability to sleep, still having the highest natural speed tier as well as great offensive and decent defensive stats. The aspect that pushes Yanma over the edge for me is how well it dictates the flow of battle while on the field due to Compound Eyes Hypnosis, other sets being much easier to play around despite being threatening in their own right. Ban.
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