marenkar

Craig Wright Q&A I

May 4th, 2017
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  1. christophbergmann [10:00 AM]
  2. Hei, @vlad2vlad are you here?
  3.  
  4. [10:01]
  5. You said CSW could answer any question I ask through your voice
  6.  
  7. vlad2vlad [10:01 AM]
  8. Ask away
  9.  
  10. christophbergmann [10:01 AM]
  11. cool ... I will ask several questions in next half hour
  12.  
  13. [10:01]
  14. First ... how did it come that you have become the voice of CSW?
  15.  
  16. vlad2vlad [10:02 AM]
  17. Destiny?
  18.  
  19. [10:02]
  20. Or you want me to ask him?
  21.  
  22. [10:04]
  23. I sent him the question. Any other ones.
  24.  
  25. christophbergmann [10:06 AM]
  26. No, yes, both ... I mean, I guess he did not just call you and said: Vlad, be my voice. Did you search him? How did you win his trust?
  27.  
  28. vlad2vlad [10:06 AM]
  29. Here's what he said: You are a little mad, as I am and I would not say you are my voice. And more than that, you never treated me like shit. You never required that I prove anything to befriend me. You are always civil.
  30.  
  31. [10:08]
  32. I was hitting him up on twitter last year and I also sent him some emails but I didn't expect anything to come of it. I tend to try and talk to all the major industry players.
  33.  
  34. christophbergmann [10:09 AM]
  35. When did you start believe that he is Satoshiß
  36.  
  37. [10:09]
  38. ?
  39.  
  40. [10:09]
  41. thank you for taking the time, btw
  42.  
  43. vlad2vlad [10:11 AM]
  44. I personally thought he was Satoshi before it was leaked, when I saw a 2 part video from like 2015 I think. That's what sold me on it. Then when he came out and all that crazy stuff happened it was confusing but I figured there had to be some logical explanation for it all so, unlike most people, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I felt he at least deserved that. Everyone does until there's real proof. Media sound bytes are never proof for me.
  45.  
  46. christophbergmann [10:12 AM]
  47. Thanks
  48.  
  49. [10:12]
  50. What did he do 2010-2015?
  51.  
  52. vlad2vlad [10:20 AM]
  53. 2010-2011. I was in a shit place family wise>
  54.  
  55. I was in a court battle with the Tax office (I won this in 2012)
  56.  
  57. [10:23]
  58. In 2011 I started a co again. I moved assets in 2011. And I did contract code and security work. I was teaching at CSU until 2014. CSU runs the Police and military training.
  59.  
  60. [10:24]
  61. From 2010 to 2013 I worked for both gaming co.s and LE. They are both the ones who cared about risk. Not that perfect security is all, but risk.
  62.  
  63. [10:25]
  64. I had too many things answering gov questions form 2014 on
  65.  
  66. [10:26]
  67. I had a farm, a ranch really. Middle of nowhere. No people closer than 1KM. I could work with no disturbances. I sold it to fund some of the companies as well as other assets. I loved that place. My work comes first.
  68.  
  69. [10:27]
  70. Next question, @christophbergmann
  71.  
  72. christophbergmann [10:28 AM]
  73. why did he leave Bitcoin in 2010?
  74.  
  75. vlad2vlad [10:38 AM]
  76. I was in battles, one after another to keep what I was working on.
  77.  
  78. [10:39]
  79. https://www.comcourts.gov.au/file/Federal/P/SYG746/2010/actions
  80.  
  81. [10:40]
  82. I do not want to have people follow me. I want people to read and think. I want them to question and validate. Not to take my word or for that matter, anybodies. And worse, do not look at something in the past and make that the yardstick.
  83.  
  84. christophbergmann [10:41 AM]
  85. didn't know this source.
  86.  
  87. [10:42]
  88. Can you explain what happened? While you continued working on Bitcoin, your company went bankrupt?
  89.  
  90. vlad2vlad [10:48 AM]
  91. In 2003 I had a fight with a 5% shareholder. My first wife sided with him as she wanted me to be home more. I ended up in an 11 year court battle. Settled part and got the company. I ended up winning. You have the final judgements. are district court, so not on google and people only see what they can easily google.
  92.  
  93. [10:49]
  94. Here is what you can tell them all..
  95.  
  96. IF you need to do what I say as I am Satoshi and not because of the idea I am presenting, but the nature of my identity, then you are all lost!
  97.  
  98. If you cannot think for yourself, then all this was for nothing
  99.  
  100. [10:49]
  101. If you judge based on an identity alone, on a perceived authority, then you are sheeple and deserve all you get
  102.  
  103. [10:52]
  104. ----
  105.  
  106. [10:52]
  107. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10702001
  108.  
  109. list of "8 2 9 10 11", which is the list that GNUPG started generating a year (commit e50cac1d848d332c4dbf49d5f705d3cbbf074ba1) after the date on the key.
  110.  
  111. BS utter BS.
  112.  
  113. And this was written as I write, not a paid piece, but as I do and I was the author of the Authority paper.
  114.  
  115. And it was independantly validated.
  116.  
  117. It is simple and who actually checks?
  118.  
  119. Gmax says and it is law.
  120.  
  121. [10:52]
  122. Think. Learn that code is a tool and us humans can use tools, but it is not a panacea and can solve nothing on its own.
  123.  
  124. [10:57]
  125. There is no form of non-repudiation. This is stated again and again by those with a past in (applied)cryptography. Yet, it is a concept that does not exist.
  126.  
  127. We live in a world of people. Code is a tool, it is a means to ensure that we can control our destiny if we use it well, but it does not remove the need to check and will never remove the need to think.
  128. christophbergmann [10:57 AM]
  129. Yeah, Greg seems obsessed with calling you a conman ...
  130.  
  131. vlad2vlad [10:57 AM]
  132. Non-Repudiation can never exist as we live in a world of law. Law is Law. Crypto is a tool that adds weight to evidence, but it is not law.
  133.  
  134. I can sign and then say my key was stolen. I can pass a key to another. This is a well established principle. In the courts, it is always possible to repudiate.
  135.  
  136. I learned this the hard way. In my case, I was given a contempt citation as I argued the fact that electronic evidence supported my assertions. I learnt that law is law in 2004 when I argued that evidence of source information can be used against you and can be falsified and that it is not possible to simply show a key as proof.
  137.  
  138. [10:58]
  139. ----
  140. MiniMax, err, Greg, is a douche. <------ my words. :)
  141.  
  142. [10:58]
  143. ---
  144.  
  145. [10:58]
  146. Bitcoin is code. It has all the faults that code has. It does not make the world an anarchist playground and with it we are not free. We are free when we are free. We are free only when we allow our minds to be free.
  147.  
  148. [10:59]
  149. We are in a tragic world. There are no fair solutions, the world is simply not fair and we can do no more than make it worse by interfering with markets and free choice.
  150.  
  151. [10:59]
  152. ‘a piratis et latronibus capta domimium non mutant’
  153.  
  154. Look it up. It is a concept of law.
  155.  
  156. christophbergmann [11:00 AM]
  157. Did you sleep in this time? You had a company, a family and developed Bitcoin.
  158.  
  159. vlad2vlad [11:01 AM]
  160. Theft of keys is a means to have access to keys, and what does it prove, only that you hold a key. Any transaction can be recovered. If you think this is not the case, deal with those with guns. Tax is forced, but try and avoid the force. Try legally.
  161.  
  162. [11:01]
  163. I spend millions to win a case worth 1.1 million. Pyrrhic. And what was the use. It changed nothing.
  164.  
  165. [11:02]
  166. End rant...
  167.  
  168. vlad2vlad [11:08 AM]
  169. I have a company. I have a family and I am enrolled in a Masters degree right now. When I complete this degree, I will start another PhD.
  170.  
  171. Back then, I was also going to conferences, this I can no longer do.
  172.  
  173. I am a full fee student. I do not take money for this. I pay my own way. No scholarships. My choice.
  174.  
  175. [11:08]
  176. So, why is this such an issue for so many people? I enjoy learning and knowledge.
  177.  
  178. [11:10]
  179. ---
  180.  
  181. [11:10]
  182. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10702001
  183.  
  184. The following is the sane response:
  185.  
  186. "grovulent 512 days ago [-]
  187.  
  188. As others have pointed out - it's arguable that publishing any claim about the identity of SN - puts the target in considerable, potential danger.
  189. Now I can understand that there is a public interest component in knowing SN's identity. And I'd even be willing to accept (but really only for sake of argument) that this public interest overrides SN's own right to privacy and safety.
  190. But to make these accusations when you yourself admit - as the article does - that there is a substantial degree of doubt, is to put at risk the safety and privacy of a person who doesn't deserve it in the least.
  191. This is an absolutely appalling thing to do to anyone. And it should be prima-facie obvious to you as to why.
  192. While I don't condone bullying of any sort - it really is the least of what these authors deserve. I personally don't feel Kanzure is bullying - merely pointing out how appalling this behaviour is, and this absolutely needs to be pointed out."
  193.  
  194. christophbergmann [11:11 AM]
  195. are you sad that you left Bitcoin in 2010? Was it a mistake?
  196.  
  197. vlad2vlad [11:15 AM]
  198. As for gaining... I gain nothing by proving I am Satoshi.
  199. My family gains nothing. We go into moving again.
  200.  
  201. I do not get money and I DO NOT want fame
  202.  
  203. [11:17]
  204. I did not leave Bitcoin. Gavin was left to manage the code with others. That is not leaving.
  205.  
  206. christophbergmann [11:18 AM]
  207. How would you call it then?
  208.  
  209. vlad2vlad [11:23 AM]
  210. I stopped responding to trolls. The base protocol was and is fine.
  211.  
  212. christophbergmann [11:29 AM]
  213. what is the base protocol?
  214.  
  215. vlad2vlad [11:31 AM]
  216. With the cap removed it remains ok.
  217.  
  218. christophbergmann [11:31 AM]
  219. which version?
  220.  
  221. [11:32]
  222. I'm not so interested in Blocksize things. We had this over and over, it already bored out Bitcoin
  223.  
  224. vlad2vlad [11:36 AM]
  225. This is the answer to "what is the base protocol"?
  226.  
  227. [11:36]
  228. The means to have miners controls the network through competition. The exchange of blocks, the format, the original script and protocols.
  229.  
  230. For example:
  231.  
  232. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/main.cpp#L2249
  233.  
  234. See the comments that they all ignore.
  235.  
  236. Prove that is not Satoshi. I do not need to sign anything and I do not need to jump their hoops, it is the code.
  237. GitHub
  238. trottier/original-bitcoin
  239. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  240.  
  241.  
  242. christophbergmann [11:42 AM]
  243. I wondered how can I know that this is the original codebase ...
  244.  
  245. [11:42]
  246. Some other question
  247.  
  248. [11:42]
  249. Why did you not publish a signed message?
  250.  
  251. vlad2vlad [11:43 AM]
  252. Continued from last response: What we need is simple, it is competition. Not a central authority. Not a 1984 double speak committee, but open and free competition.
  253.  
  254. This means that people are allowed to build on top of the base protocol. That the miners decide (see the 08 paper). If people do not like it, they can lobby miners or better, invest in hash power.
  255.  
  256. This way, changes are made based on what the market decides. Not an authority, the market. Each tries and fails and grows based on supply to a market.
  257.  
  258. vlad2vlad [11:49 AM]
  259. Answer to your last questing about signing a message:
  260.  
  261. [11:49]
  262. URGH!
  263.  
  264. 1. Tax. I am not offering proof that is proof. If I can access or not is MY business and it stays that way.
  265.  
  266. 2. More importantly, stop looking to a bloody saviour!
  267.  
  268. Markets are the answer, free open competition. Not Satoshi on his bloody white horse. Markets!
  269.  
  270. [11:51]
  271. Layer 2 networks will require the introduction of AML and intermediary controls. These are localised networks in the form of existing intermediaries.
  272.  
  273. They can be allowed to operate with Bitcoin competitively, but not at the expense of open exchange. This being what they fear, why use L2 if you have no need?
  274.  
  275. [11:52]
  276. Those who do not think that government can set in and control this are either naive or malicious. There is no other view. This is not a false dichotomy. These are the only options.
  277.  
  278. [11:53]
  279. In all cases, L2 will require systems that can be controlled and they will require the interaction of merchants and other parties. Networks such as lightning centralise and offer control on a platter.
  280.  
  281. christophbergmann [11:53 AM]
  282. Something else ... now you are Chief Scientis at nChain, right?
  283.  
  284. vlad2vlad [12:02 PM]
  285. Yes. I will not discuss the company though.
  286.  
  287. [12:02]
  288. The others will. I say too much and get in trouble already.
  289.  
  290. [12:03]
  291. I am not a CEO for a good reason. I am good at maths and code, I can write responses that nobody reads that are cogent and sincere, but when it comes to politics and fronting things, I just dig holes for myself
  292.  
  293. christophbergmann [12:06 PM]
  294. Ok, can you say when the software will go open source?
  295.  
  296. vlad2vlad [12:24 PM]
  297. Not answering re times for Open Source. It is underway.
  298.  
  299. cryptonaut [12:34 PM]
  300. @vlad2vlad CSW won't use slack or something? Would be interesting to get him on here.
  301.  
  302. vlad2vlad [12:35 PM]
  303. I seriously doubt it but I'll ask him@
  304.  
  305. cryptonaut [12:36 PM]
  306. Here's a question. Is Scronty legit or is this story just some fan fiction? (long read, but seems to align closely with the CSW story) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5aflch/bitcoin_origins/
  307. reddit
  308. Bitcoin Origins • r/Bitcoin
  309. Afternoon, All. Today marks the eighth anniversary of the publication of the Bitcoin white paper. As a special tribute, I will provide you with...
  310.  
  311.  
  312. [12:38]
  313. If CSW is true and that above thread is true, Team Satoshi appears to consist of Craig, whoever that Scronty guy is, and David
  314.  
  315. vlad2vlad [12:38 PM]
  316. Dr. Wright says he'll come take a look in this channel but he's not gonna join.
  317.  
  318. [12:39]
  319. Who's got a link for this channel?
  320.  
  321. cryptonaut [12:40 PM]
  322. if you click on your name in the top left corner there should be an option to invite people by email
  323.  
  324. [12:41]
  325. tell him to make a throwaway if he wants to check it out but not join and get harrassed
  326.  
  327. csw [12:43 PM]
  328. joined #general
  329.  
  330. cryptonaut [12:43 PM]
  331. :new_moon_with_face: :rocket:
  332.  
  333. csw [12:44 PM]
  334. Scronty is a wanker
  335.  
  336. csw [12:44 PM]
  337. I am tired of people saying they worked with me. Scronty even got the number of BTC wrong.
  338.  
  339. 1 reply Today at 1:32 PM View thread
  340.  
  341. vlad2vlad [12:45 PM]
  342. Welcome Dr. Wright!!!!
  343.  
  344. cryptonaut [12:45 PM]
  345. so just some fan fiction then? and yes, welcome :smile:
  346.  
  347. csw [12:46 PM]
  348. Yes, and not a fan
  349.  
  350. [12:47]
  351. "I wondered how can I know that this is the original codebase ..."
  352.  
  353. [12:47]
  354. It is not, it is close, but it is available on the satoshi Inst as well.
  355.  
  356. cryptonaut [12:47 PM]
  357. Are you able to say how many there were on the team? 3, or was there more? Not that it matters really
  358.  
  359. csw [12:47 PM]
  360. The first released code was 0.0.9
  361.  
  362. [12:47]
  363. It crashed.
  364.  
  365. onchainscaling [12:47 PM]
  366. Why was 21 million chosen? was it arbitrary number or is there a reason for that particular number?
  367.  
  368. csw [12:48 PM]
  369. The first other users are Bear and Hal
  370.  
  371. [12:48]
  372. M1
  373.  
  374. [12:48]
  375. 21 million links to global M1
  376.  
  377. christophbergmann [12:48 PM]
  378. Hallo Mr. Wright!
  379.  
  380. csw [12:49 PM]
  381. There are no decimal points, 21 million is the reference for people, the no. Satoshi (and I did not call them that) are related to M1 (edited)
  382.  
  383. cryptonaut [12:50 PM]
  384. can you expand on that?
  385.  
  386. csw [12:50 PM]
  387. http://lexicon.ft.com/Term?term=m0,-m1,-m2,-m3,-m4
  388.  
  389. [12:51]
  390. If you read the 08 paper, you will note the use of fiat as a value.
  391.  
  392. [12:51]
  393. Sect, 9. Page 5
  394.  
  395. [12:51]
  396. In the use of 21 million x 10^8 parts you have a value that maps to the cent
  397.  
  398. [12:51]
  399. That is, to global M1
  400.  
  401. vlad2vlad [12:52 PM]
  402. So bitcoin is meant to displace global fiat
  403.  
  404. [12:52]
  405. ?
  406.  
  407. csw [12:52 PM]
  408. This would be 21,000,000,000,000 USD as M1.
  409.  
  410. 21,000 trillion
  411.  
  412. [12:52]
  413. The idea is global cash.
  414.  
  415. [12:52]
  416. A single world currency
  417.  
  418. [12:53]
  419. Can I assume that you have read Hayek's work on global money?
  420.  
  421. vlad2vlad [12:53 PM]
  422. You're not gonna have many friends out there. But if you can pull it off bitcoin is gonna reach astronomical levels.
  423.  
  424. [12:53]
  425. No. But i will. :)
  426.  
  427. csw [12:53 PM]
  428. I have few friends.
  429.  
  430. cryptonaut [12:53 PM]
  431. section 9 is titled 'combining and splitting value" and does not mention a fiat value
  432.  
  433. csw [12:54 PM]
  434. I am not looking for them, I work best as I am and I find having a head in maths and code does not make one amiable to others.
  435.  
  436. [12:54]
  437. "Although it would be possible to handle coins individually, it would be unwieldy to make a
  438. separate transaction for every cent in a transfer"
  439.  
  440. [12:55]
  441. I believe that you will find that in S9.
  442.  
  443. cryptonaut [12:55 PM]
  444. right
  445.  
  446. [12:56]
  447. gotcha
  448.  
  449. csw [12:56 PM]
  450. I am sorry, I can be a little vague... If I am, ask for explanations.
  451.  
  452. [12:56]
  453. I make assumptions of knowledge
  454.  
  455. cryptonaut [12:57 PM]
  456. all good, just trying to piece together
  457.  
  458. csw [12:57 PM]
  459. It comes from too long inside universities
  460.  
  461. cryptonaut [12:57 PM]
  462. never been :wink:
  463.  
  464. csw [12:57 PM]
  465. Never been out...
  466.  
  467.  
  468. vlad2vlad [12:57 PM]
  469. Lol
  470.  
  471. csw [1:00 PM]
  472. Re: Bitcoin P2P e-cash paper 2008-11-10 14:09:26 UTC
  473.  
  474.  
  475. James A. Donald wrote:
  476. > Furthermore, it cannot be made to work, as in the
  477. > proposed system the work of tracking who owns what coins
  478. > is paid for by seigniorage, which requires inflation.
  479.  
  480. If you're having trouble with the inflation issue, it's easy to tweak it for
  481. transaction fees instead. It's as simple as this: let the output value from
  482. any transaction be 1 cent less than the input value. Either the client
  483. software automatically writes transactions for 1 cent more than the intended
  484. payment value, or it could come out of the payee's side. The incentive value
  485. when a node finds a proof-of-work for a block could be the total of the fees in
  486. the block.
  487.  
  488. Satoshi Nakamoto
  489.  
  490. cryptonaut [1:01 PM]
  491. Hah. So google tells me M1 USD supply is just under 2.1 trillion. Total # of satoshis is 2100 trillion. Close enough I say lol.
  492.  
  493. csw [1:01 PM]
  494. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/util.cpp#L210
  495. GitHub
  496. trottier/original-bitcoin
  497. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  498.  
  499.  
  500. [1:02]
  501. Have a look at the code.
  502.  
  503. [1:03]
  504. n /= CENT;
  505.  
  506. @212; 255; 261
  507. in src/util.cpp
  508.  
  509. [1:03]
  510. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/main.h#L17
  511. GitHub
  512. trottier/original-bitcoin
  513. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  514.  
  515.  
  516. [1:03]
  517. Main.h
  518.  
  519. [1:03]
  520. Defined against Cents
  521.  
  522. [1:04]
  523. // Value
  524. int64 nValue = (GetRand(9) + 1) * 100 * CENT;
  525. if (GetBalance() < nValue)
  526. {
  527. wxMessageBox("Out of money ");
  528. return;
  529. }
  530. nValue += (nRep % 100) * CENT;
  531.  
  532. [1:04]
  533. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/ui.cpp#L3178
  534. GitHub
  535. trottier/original-bitcoin
  536. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  537.  
  538.  
  539. [1:04]
  540. Do you require more evidence?
  541.  
  542. cryptonaut [1:08 PM]
  543. makes sense to me. Here's one for you though: what was the thinking behind adding the 1MB block limit that we are now dealing with 2.5+ years drama to solve?
  544.  
  545. csw [1:08 PM]
  546. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/main.cpp
  547. GitHub
  548. trottier/original-bitcoin
  549. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  550.  
  551.  
  552. [1:09]
  553. // Transaction fee requirements, mainly only needed for flood control
  554. // Under 10K (about 80 inputs) is free for first 100 transactions
  555. // Base rate is 0.01 per KB
  556. int64 nMinFee = tx.GetMinFee(pblock->vtx.size() < 100);
  557.  
  558. [1:09]
  559. At 0.08 cents a BTC, flood control did not work.
  560.  
  561. [1:09]
  562. At more than 100USD, it does
  563.  
  564. [1:09]
  565. We are at more than 100USD a BTC right now.
  566.  
  567. [1:10]
  568. In early 2010, the number of nodes (please note, nodes are always verification agents, that is miners) was low. (edited)
  569.  
  570. cryptonaut [1:10 PM]
  571. friggin $2200 canadian on localbitcoins right now
  572.  
  573. csw [1:11 PM]
  574. It should be higher. The more people can use BitCoin natively, the more the value will increase.
  575.  
  576.  
  577. cryptonaut [1:11 PM]
  578. spelling it BitCoin is heresy you know :stuck_out_tongue:
  579.  
  580. csw [1:12 PM]
  581. This is not as has been suggested exponential, but logistic
  582.  
  583. [1:12]
  584. It was in the early code as BitCoin
  585.  
  586. cryptonaut [1:12 PM]
  587. eh, looks ugly though. But yeah, to the moon and such
  588.  
  589. csw [1:12 PM]
  590. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/readme.txt
  591. GitHub
  592. trottier/original-bitcoin
  593. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  594.  
  595.  
  596. [1:13]
  597. Line 1: BitCoin v0.1.3 ALPHA
  598.  
  599. cryptonaut [1:13 PM]
  600. Line 13: Bitcoin. Inconsistent lol
  601.  
  602. csw [1:13 PM]
  603. I have never been accused of being a designer
  604.  
  605. [1:13]
  606. I also never said I am perfect and yes, I do go back and forth.
  607.  
  608. [1:14]
  609. Lines 34 - 36:
  610.  
  611. To support the network by running a node, select:
  612.  
  613. Options->Generate Coins
  614.  
  615. cryptonaut [1:14 PM]
  616. I tend to do the same when naming things
  617.  
  618. csw [1:14 PM]
  619. Code naming conventions do not always move into the real world well.
  620.  
  621. cryptonaut [1:14 PM]
  622. true
  623.  
  624. csw [1:14 PM]
  625. Words are not variables as much as I would like to have this be so
  626.  
  627. [1:16]
  628. I thought the comments in the code were rather good, then it seems they are either ignored or they are not read.
  629.  
  630. [1:16]
  631. Either saddens me, though I cannot state which would sadden me more.
  632.  
  633. cryptonaut [1:16 PM]
  634. which points or comments do you feel are being ignored?
  635.  
  636. csw [1:17 PM]
  637. Have you read Brooks?
  638.  
  639. [1:17]
  640. Mythical Man Month, 1975, 1995 re-printed
  641.  
  642. cryptonaut [1:17 PM]
  643. I have not
  644.  
  645. csw [1:17 PM]
  646. A shame.
  647.  
  648. [1:17]
  649. Page 65 from memory of Brooks
  650.  
  651. [1:18]
  652. Triple redundancy
  653.  
  654. [1:18]
  655. //
  656. // "Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three."
  657. // Our three chronometers are:
  658. // - System clock
  659. // - Median of other server's clocks
  660. // - NTP servers
  661. //
  662. // note: NTP isn't implemented yet, so until then we just use the median
  663. // of other nodes clocks to correct ours.
  664. //
  665.  
  666. [1:18]
  667. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/util.cpp#L326
  668. GitHub
  669. trottier/original-bitcoin
  670. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  671.  
  672.  
  673. [1:19]
  674. I do not see why there are arguments on things link the use off NTP as a base that is averaged in the system between nodes.
  675.  
  676. [1:19]
  677. The code has a number of comments stating that this is to be done.
  678.  
  679. [1:20]
  680. // Only let other nodes change our clock so far before we
  681. // go to the NTP servers
  682. /// todo: Get time from NTP servers, then set a flag
  683. /// to make sure it doesn't get changed again
  684. }
  685.  
  686. [1:22]
  687. And it should not be monolithic...
  688.  
  689. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/net.cpp#L893
  690. GitHub
  691. trottier/original-bitcoin
  692. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  693.  
  694.  
  695. [1:22]
  696. //// todo: start one thread per processor, use getenv("NUMBER_OF_PROCESSORS")
  697.  
  698. [1:22]
  699. And the market place was never fixed.
  700. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/ui.cpp#L1619
  701. GitHub
  702. trottier/original-bitcoin
  703. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  704.  
  705.  
  706. cryptonaut [1:23 PM]
  707. I'm not too familiar with the nuances of NTP and server clocks etc, just a humble web developer. To get back to the 1MB block size thing for a second - did you anticipate the difficulty of removing or replacing the limit that we are currently experiencing?
  708.  
  709. csw [1:23 PM]
  710. There was supposed to be a means to have a merchant exchange a message with the purchaser. This would be a direct PoS system, no need for Visa etc.
  711.  
  712. [1:24]
  713. 2010
  714.  
  715. [1:24]
  716. See email
  717.  
  718. [1:24]
  719. Well before we get to where we are RIGHT NOW it is possible to preempt this and have an increase.
  720.  
  721. jp [1:25 PM]
  722. Why did you credit Adam Back hashcash when you didn't use it?
  723.  
  724. csw [1:25 PM]
  725. Adam intro'd Wei
  726.  
  727. [1:25]
  728. I do not generally talk to people I do not know. Not without an intro
  729.  
  730. jp [1:26 PM]
  731. But why credit him while you not used his? This wrong citation creates this evil blockstream
  732.  
  733. csw [1:26 PM]
  734. Adam was helpful for all that he said it would not work, but I am used to people saying my work is not worth considering.
  735.  
  736. jp [1:26 PM]
  737. Why you didn't credit triple entry accounting?
  738.  
  739. csw [1:27 PM]
  740. I am not able to see the future.
  741.  
  742. cryptonaut [1:27 PM]
  743. re: merchant exchange, decent idea but probably premature and not the best idea to put so many use cases into a single application (for example, the wallet accounts system used by Core is total garbage)
  744.  
  745. csw [1:27 PM]
  746. The list of references would be in the 100s of pages if I was to list the giants it was built to stand upon.
  747.  
  748. jp [1:28 PM]
  749. You used triple entry accounting in 2005 to inspire blockchain. But instead you credited something not actually used
  750.  
  751. csw [1:28 PM]
  752. Yes, the marketplace was far too early. And my design skills are far too poor.
  753.  
  754. [1:28]
  755. Using wxHtml was also a mistake.
  756.  
  757. jp [1:29 PM]
  758. It is why Ian grigg was heavily undervalued while core Adam back is crook
  759.  
  760. cryptonaut [1:29 PM]
  761. the idea for PoW is an iteration/evolution of hashcash so I don't think the citation is off base really
  762.  
  763. csw [1:29 PM]
  764. And triple entry accounting was something I stayed away from commenting
  765.  
  766. jp [1:29 PM]
  767. It is not too late to comment now
  768.  
  769. csw [1:29 PM]
  770. It was something I was introduced to when I was working at BDO, an accounting firm
  771.  
  772. jp [1:29 PM]
  773. Yes. Granger did
  774.  
  775. csw [1:31 PM]
  776. Again, I never foresaw the world to come as it has come. I did not see the politics. I saw state actors as more the issue than Adam B(l)ack
  777.  
  778.  
  779. jp [1:31 PM]
  780. I Think you should also correct the citation. Adam back himself was surprised when he saw he was credited
  781.  
  782. christophbergmann [1:31 PM]
  783. why was Ian Grigg heavily undervalued, @jp ?
  784.  
  785. cryptonaut [1:31 PM]
  786. what a mind trip adam must have had lol
  787.  
  788. jp [1:32 PM]
  789. He was the one kept looking for hmwjo SN was because he was surprised as his name was included in whitepaper while he knew hashcash was not used
  790.  
  791. csw [1:32 PM]
  792. It is published. Papers should not be played with
  793.  
  794. [1:32]
  795. I am not a god, I am a researcher. I code, I do maths and I am fallible. (edited)
  796.  
  797. jp [1:33 PM]
  798. It is not late to correctly credit people whose works you used.
  799.  
  800. [1:33]
  801. Adam back is not and should not be on whitepaper because of just an introduction email to Wei Dai
  802.  
  803. csw [1:34 PM]
  804. Should not. Is. These are separate concepts.
  805.  
  806. tomothy
  807. [1:34 PM]
  808. I know you touched on the 1mb cap and mining but can you comment on the idea of the UASF, (user activated soft fork) and your thought on using it to implement segwit? Also general thoughts on segwit? Thanks.
  809.  
  810. csw [1:34 PM]
  811. I do not want to be found. I did not want to be found.
  812.  
  813. cryptonaut [1:34 PM]
  814. frankly unless csw somehow 100% proves he is satoshi, any whitepaper update wouldn't be taken seriously and probably a waste of time. Plus blockstream is already a thing, too late for that
  815.  
  816.  
  817. csw [1:35 PM]
  818. UASF - Miners are nodes. Nodes are miners.
  819.  
  820. [1:35]
  821. There are NO full non-mining nodes.
  822.  
  823.  
  824. [1:35]
  825. Please read the paper.
  826.  
  827. [1:35]
  828. It is VERY VERY clear
  829.  
  830. [1:35]
  831. If you have issues, look at the code.
  832.  
  833. tomothy
  834. [1:35 PM]
  835. And then segwit generally?
  836.  
  837. csw [1:36 PM]
  838. "Nodes" that are not mining are wallets, these are fat SPV systems and sock puppets
  839.  
  840. [1:36]
  841. SegWit centralises the system
  842.  
  843. jp [1:36 PM]
  844. What is your plan to stop segwit? A hard fork coming soon?
  845.  
  846. csw [1:36 PM]
  847. It means that developers can make further changes without a consensus
  848.  
  849. bdd [1:36 PM]
  850. joined #general
  851.  
  852. csw [1:37 PM]
  853. There will not be an update. Mistakes on referencing or not
  854.  
  855. tomothy
  856. [1:37 PM]
  857. To the best of your knowledge, does segwit infringe on any patents?
  858.  
  859. csw [1:38 PM]
  860. And I will not prove. I am not here to prove. If you need to listen as you think that I am and this is the sole reason, then it is lost to you in any event.
  861.  
  862. [1:38]
  863. Tomothy.
  864.  
  865. [1:38]
  866. Yes
  867.  
  868. [1:38]
  869. I cannot expand on that here and now.
  870.  
  871. [1:39]
  872. That will be addressed soon and in the manner that is requires
  873.  
  874. tomothy
  875. [1:39 PM]
  876. And is it safe to the assume that the creators of segwit had alterior motives for creating it, introducing it, and refusing to increase 1mb limit?
  877.  
  878. [1:39]
  879. Understood. Eagerly await.
  880.  
  881. csw [1:39 PM]
  882. I cannot speak for the motivations of others I do not know intimately
  883.  
  884. jp [1:39 PM]
  885. What can we do to help?
  886.  
  887.  
  888. csw [1:40 PM]
  889. Law is Law.
  890. Cryptographic tools are tools.
  891. I know many do not see this, but when it comes to intellectual property, it is rather certain.
  892.  
  893. [1:40]
  894. To help... compete.
  895.  
  896. [1:40]
  897. Competition and markets are the source of human freedom and innovation.
  898.  
  899. [1:41]
  900. Make something.
  901.  
  902.  
  903. [1:41]
  904. Develop
  905.  
  906. jp [1:41 PM]
  907. Compete in what way? I see that the SDK is one stone two birds. Kill core and alts
  908.  
  909. csw [1:41 PM]
  910. And if you fail for the n-th time... Start and try again.
  911.  
  912. cryptonaut [1:41 PM]
  913. amen to that, @jp compete in all ways :stuck_out_tongue:
  914.  
  915. [1:41]
  916. getting super late here, I'm out guys. Cheers
  917.  
  918.  
  919. jp [1:41 PM]
  920. Will there be any smart contract applications coming?
  921.  
  922. csw [1:41 PM]
  923. I cannot discuss that./
  924.  
  925. [1:42]
  926. I also need to go.
  927. I am sorry, but I have a lot to do.
  928.  
  929.  
  930. jp [1:42 PM]
  931. Thank you.
  932.  
  933. tomothy
  934. [1:42 PM]
  935. Same, thanks for providing so many responses!
  936.  
  937. csw [1:42 PM]
  938. Please, all I ask is do not follow me, a developer or anyone based on who they are. Look anytime, everytime on the solution, the effects and the trade-off.
  939.  
  940.  
  941. bitsko [1:43 PM]
  942. thank you for your thoughts!
  943.  
  944. csw [1:43 PM]
  945. Please remember, this is a world of scarcity, there is always something that is a trade-off, a cost and we cannot just assume that a change comes without a cost.
  946.  
  947. [1:43]
  948. Fair well.
  949.  
  950.  
  951. jp [1:45 PM]
  952. And he gone.
  953.  
  954. cypherblock [1:45 PM]
  955. well that was interesting.
  956.  
  957. bitsko [1:46 PM]
  958. :awesome: :ohyeah: :awesome: :ohyeah: :success: :success: :wut: :rocket:
  959.  
  960. norway [1:47 PM]
  961. This is crazy.
  962.  
  963. tomothy
  964. [1:47 PM]
  965. Thanks for making that happen vlad
  966.  
  967. vlad2vlad [1:47 PM]
  968. BOOM!!! Told you guys Dr Wright was the real deal!!!
  969.  
  970. tomothy
  971. [1:47 PM]
  972. I still expect some God damn fireworks though. That better not be the end of it.
  973.  
  974.  
  975. vlad2vlad [1:47 PM]
  976. I do what I do. ;p
  977.  
  978. [1:48]
  979. I don't think that's the end of it. It's like core is gonna compromise.
  980.  
  981. tomothy
  982. [1:48 PM]
  983. We need that tabloid inquirer type juice too
  984.  
  985. jp [1:48 PM]
  986. I told you were a working tool. Good one.
  987.  
  988. vlad2vlad [1:48 PM]
  989. Lol.
  990.  
  991. tomothy
  992. [1:48 PM]
  993. LOL compromise LOL
  994.  
  995. vlad2vlad [1:48 PM]
  996. Haha
  997.  
  998. norway [1:49 PM]
  999. I like this one: "There are NO full non-mining nodes."
  1000.  
  1001. cypherblock [1:49 PM]
  1002. I thought his first post was interesting.
  1003.  
  1004. norway [1:50 PM]
  1005. Bitcoin mapped to current M1 makes a lot of sense.
  1006.  
  1007. vlad2vlad [1:50 PM]
  1008. Replace cash. Brilliant.
  1009.  
  1010. norway [1:51 PM]
  1011. M1 is not just physical cash. It's also spending accounts.
  1012.  
  1013. vlad2vlad [1:51 PM]
  1014. Yeah, cash equivalents
  1015.  
  1016. [1:52]
  1017. That was a solid showing
  1018.  
  1019. cypherblock [1:53 PM]
  1020. @vlad2vlad why did his first post here call out Scronty. Were you guys discussing him previously?
  1021.  
  1022. vlad2vlad [1:53 PM]
  1023. I don't think so. Not sure if someone else maybe mentioned him.
  1024.  
  1025. jp [1:54 PM]
  1026. Scronty is a wannabe wanker
  1027.  
  1028. vlad2vlad [1:54 PM]
  1029. Lol
  1030.  
  1031. jp [1:54 PM]
  1032. He even sent emails asking for 500k btc
  1033.  
  1034. norway [1:54 PM]
  1035. I made a calculation of potential bitcoin value a couple of years ago. I used M2 (Cash + spending accounts + savings accounts) as the basis. It's these pie charts: https://i.imgur.com/KA8CuED.png (231kB)
  1036.  
  1037. vlad2vlad [1:55 PM]
  1038. That guy messaged me telling me crazy stuff. Sounded desperate. Scammer type.
  1039.  
  1040. cypherblock [1:55 PM]
  1041. ah I see @cryptonaut posted question about Scronty. Scronty seems like a nice guy, either he is full of shit or he is not. Same as csw.
  1042.  
  1043. jp [1:57 PM]
  1044. Scronty sent emails demanding 500k btc
  1045.  
  1046. cypherblock [1:57 PM]
  1047. @jp please post
  1048.  
  1049. [1:58]
  1050. csw posted ~invalid~ faked, scammy satoshi signatures. (edited)
  1051.  
  1052. vlad2vlad [1:58 PM]
  1053. Scronty told me he asked for 500k BTC. Said it was owed to him
  1054.  
  1055. jp [1:59 PM]
  1056. uploaded this image: Screenshot_20170504-045849.jpg
  1057. Add Comment
  1058.  
  1059. cypherblock [2:00 PM]
  1060. @jp didn’t look like a demand there, but that is semantics I suppose. Sounds like he was involved then? Can you confirm?
  1061.  
  1062. jp [2:00 PM]
  1063. Oh. It was a lot of rants prior that
  1064.  
  1065. [2:01]
  1066. Scronty was not involved. He is pissed off because he was not
  1067.  
  1068. [2:01]
  1069. Like you knew someone before he/she getting famous and now you jump up and down to tell people that you two were best friend forever lol
  1070.  
  1071. vlad2vlad [2:02 PM]
  1072. @jp are you Joseph?
  1073.  
  1074. cypherblock [2:02 PM]
  1075. Not involved at all? Didn’t help author the white paper or see any drafts of it prior to publication and give feedback on that?
  1076.  
  1077. jp [2:02 PM]
  1078. John Paterson
  1079.  
  1080. [2:02]
  1081. Not involved
  1082.  
  1083. [2:02]
  1084. You can write that fantasy novel too
  1085.  
  1086. [2:02]
  1087. By gathering public info and some studies
  1088.  
  1089. newliberty [2:03 PM]
  1090. joined #general
  1091.  
  1092. cypherblock [2:03 PM]
  1093. @jp who came up with using hashcash (yes I know you hate) pow? Was that csw?
  1094.  
  1095. tomothy
  1096. [2:03 PM]
  1097. NL this is slack text I wanted to send or link dunno how
  1098.  
  1099. jp [2:04 PM]
  1100. No. Hashcash was not used
  1101.  
  1102. [2:04]
  1103. It is why I raised this issue
  1104.  
  1105. cypherblock [2:04 PM]
  1106. double sha256 as pow then. who came up with that?
  1107.  
  1108. jp [2:04 PM]
  1109. Adam Back was surprised when he was credited
  1110.  
  1111. [2:05]
  1112. He kept wondering who was Satoshi because Adam back said solutions Satoshi put, wouldn't work
  1113.  
  1114. [2:05]
  1115. And here we re. Adam back tries to steal everything
  1116.  
  1117. [2:06]
  1118. Wei Dai helped
  1119.  
  1120. tomtomtom7 [2:06 PM]
  1121. joined #general
  1122.  
  1123. tomothy
  1124. [2:07 PM]
  1125. I think he might now be in http://btcchat.slack.com
  1126.  
  1127. [2:07]
  1128. If you have access
  1129.  
  1130. cypherblock [2:07 PM]
  1131. @jp but bitcoin does use double sha256 as proof of work, so there is some basis for referencing another work that also used that.
  1132.  
  1133. tomothy
  1134. [2:08 PM]
  1135. For those just joining and hoping to get some answers. Was just told he got there and is talking also
  1136.  
  1137. jp [2:08 PM]
  1138. Read Ddos resistance paper
  1139.  
  1140. tomothy
  1141. [2:08 PM]
  1142. Unless this is that slack... Lol I don't think it is though, right? To many slacks
  1143.  
  1144. cypherblock [2:08 PM]
  1145. @timothy this is btcchat yes.
  1146.  
  1147. jp [2:09 PM]
  1148. Hashcash was used for email spam
  1149.  
  1150. tomothy
  1151. [2:09 PM]
  1152. Oh. Damn, sorry NL.
  1153.  
  1154. jp [2:09 PM]
  1155. It was hashcash original purpose
  1156.  
  1157. cypherblock [2:09 PM]
  1158. @jp yes I am aware. I completely agree that bitcoin is far far different than hashcash
  1159.  
  1160. jp [2:10 PM]
  1161. Too much fantasy from email spam solution to bitcoin as Adam back claims. Totally scam
  1162.  
  1163. cypherblock [2:11 PM]
  1164. but still the concept of proof of work, of something that is easy to verify and hard to create is important. Adam came up with good solution for that and saw its use but obviously nothing like bitcoin.
  1165.  
  1166. vlad2vlad [2:11 PM]
  1167. JVP?? Man, Dr. Wright brought in the big strangers. Welcome, @newliberty
  1168.  
  1169. jp [2:11 PM]
  1170. If the whitepaper citations were done properly, actually credit properly then we wouldn't have blockstream Adam Back of today
  1171.  
  1172. [2:11]
  1173. But as Dr. Wright said, he could not see the future
  1174.  
  1175. [2:13]
  1176. Hal Finney, Dave Kleiman. Wei Dai were the team. If anyone else claimed to be a part of It and asking for money, it is scammer
  1177.  
  1178. vlad2vlad [2:15 PM]
  1179. @jp What about bear? I'm pretty sure he helped out early on
  1180.  
  1181. jp [2:16 PM]
  1182. I won't comment on that.
  1183.  
  1184. vlad2vlad [2:16 PM]
  1185. The answer is yes.
  1186.  
  1187. cypherblock [2:16 PM]
  1188. yeah who is bear? Sorry I mean I’m not familiar with that moniker, is he referenced elsewhere?
  1189.  
  1190. vlad2vlad [2:16 PM]
  1191. I actually talked to him a couple weeks ago about another project
  1192.  
  1193. [2:16]
  1194. Ray Dillinger
  1195.  
  1196. [2:17]
  1197. Maybe we can get him in here too. Bring back the whole team. Minus Hal, of course.
  1198.  
  1199. jp [2:17 PM]
  1200. Minus Dave K
  1201.  
  1202. vlad2vlad [2:17 PM]
  1203. Oops. Him too.
  1204.  
  1205. [2:18]
  1206. I've got Gavin's email. Gonna try him
  1207.  
  1208. jp [2:19 PM]
  1209. Adam Back should stop riding the bitcoin whitepaper coattail
  1210.  
  1211. vlad2vlad [2:20 PM]
  1212. I sent bear and Gavin and invite. Maybe we'll get a super dev slack going here.
  1213.  
  1214.  
  1215. awemany [2:25 PM]
  1216. joined #general
  1217.  
  1218. bitsko [2:27 PM]
  1219. Was trying to get full text with slack signup as title for a pastebin. Looks like i didnt get it all, now on cell and must work. :fearful:
  1220.  
  1221. travin [2:27 PM]
  1222. joined #general
  1223.  
  1224. cypherblock [2:29 PM]
  1225. @jp were you involved with early bitcoin? You are not jvp right? Sorry so many monikers to track.
  1226.  
  1227. jp [2:29 PM]
  1228. As Dr. Wright said, he is tired of having people saying that they worked with him.
  1229.  
  1230. tomothy
  1231. [2:29 PM]
  1232. Yeah also on mobile, Vlad maybe make a pastebin of today's excitement?
  1233. 1 reply Today at 2:31 PM View thread
  1234.  
  1235. jp [2:29 PM]
  1236. I am John Paterson
  1237.  
  1238. csw [2:30 PM]
  1239. No, I posted a link to read Satre.
  1240.  
  1241. Pinned by jp
  1242. Today at 2:32 PM Pinned by jp
  1243. [2:31]
  1244. Please read the following (translated) page for this:
  1245. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1964/12/17/sartre-on-the-nobel-prize/
  1246. The New York Review of Books
  1247. Sartre on the Nobel Prize
  1248. Jean-Paul Sartre explained his refusal to accept the Nobel Prize for Literature in a statement made to the Swedish Press on October 22, which appeared in Le Monde in a French translation approved by Sartre. The following translation into English was made by Richard Howard. I deeply regret the fact that the incident has become … (13kB)
  1249.  
  1250. vlad2vlad [2:32 PM]
  1251. I'm also on mobile. 4 years strong
  1252.  
  1253. xhiggy [2:33 PM]
  1254. joined #general
  1255.  
  1256. vlad2vlad [2:33 PM]
  1257. Now I remember reading that
  1258.  
  1259. awemany [2:34 PM]
  1260. csw, so what I am wondering, given the general hands-off attitude you seem to possess: why do you want to get involved with Bitcoin development again through nchain? Do you distrust the market? Or do you think the market simply includes you as a market participant as well, and it therefore should reflect your actions?
  1261.  
  1262. csw [2:34 PM]
  1263. East vs West, this is a cultural comment. It does not relate to what people see, but to order and anarchy. Neither is the way. Being a Libertarian is a means to allow free trade and market solutions, but it requires institutions.
  1264.  
  1265. [2:34]
  1266. The market is all I trust!
  1267.  
  1268. [2:35]
  1269. Am I being a wet blanket here, or does anyone understand the point of the Satre rejection letter?
  1270.  
  1271. [2:36]
  1272. There exists nothing to relate a free market based global money to. It is as a consequence of never truly having been free. The "Gold standard" was in fact a Gold exchange standard and worse, it was a BiMetalist system (edited)
  1273.  
  1274. newliberty [2:38 PM]
  1275. There've been a number of different gold standards, so there's not really a standard gold standard.
  1276.  
  1277. tomothy
  1278. [2:39 PM]
  1279. The point of the letter is apt and plainly similar. Thanks for sharing.
  1280.  
  1281. csw [2:39 PM]
  1282. Everyone seeks an authority. This is what BitCoin was created to bypass. We can all trade and we can do this as the market determines. Not as a consequence of a high priesthood, but through trial and error, failure and just sheer will to try and learn and fail again.
  1283.  
  1284. [2:40]
  1285. Satoshi has to be a myth. If you make me, or anyone a 'God', an infallible authority, then what is the point?
  1286.  
  1287.  
  1288. cypherblock [2:40 PM]
  1289. did you purposely want to undermine Gavin as a way to remove his authority as well? That seems a bit, well, rough.
  1290.  
  1291. charlieshrem [2:41 PM]
  1292. joined #general
  1293.  
  1294. charlieshrem [2:42 PM]
  1295. Hey
  1296. 2 replies Last reply today at 2:42 PM View thread
  1297.  
  1298. awemany [2:42 PM]
  1299. csw: yes that authority part makes a lot of sense and also why the creator had to hide. this is why I am wondering about your personal involvement again. is nchain going to be funded by early coins?
  1300.  
  1301. csw [2:42 PM]
  1302. Core should not tell you what to do. They need to propose and allow the market to decide. Bitcoin solves the issue of sock puppets in a manner analogous to the gambler at the roulette table. This means we propose and allow it to compete and to see what we can have, not as a centralised system but through many groups.
  1303.  
  1304. newliberty [2:42 PM]
  1305. Recognizing "Satoshi" ought be more about gratitude than authority seeking. Authorities are to be questioned.
  1306.  
  1307. csw [2:42 PM]
  1308. nChain is funded, but I will not discuss that. There are people in the group who will.
  1309.  
  1310. jp [2:42 PM]
  1311. Someone pastebin this chat pls. I'm on mobile
  1312.  
  1313. csw [2:43 PM]
  1314. Authority NEEDS to be questioned.
  1315.  
  1316.  
  1317. [2:43]
  1318. I study and I write. More than that I do not ask.
  1319.  
  1320. awemany [2:43 PM]
  1321. csw: ok. Core supporters often bring forward the 'alternative implementations are menace to the network' part - what did you mean by that, in light of 'many groups' above? (edited)
  1322.  
  1323. tomothy
  1324. [2:44 PM]
  1325. Newliberty did.
  1326.  
  1327. csw [2:44 PM]
  1328. They are a menace only to those who freely decide.
  1329.  
  1330. wellspenttime [2:44 PM]
  1331. joined #general. Also, @joeldalais joined.
  1332.  
  1333. csw [2:44 PM]
  1334. If you consider the flaw in BU, it was a loss to the miner, not to the protocol
  1335.  
  1336.  
  1337. charlieshrem [2:45 PM]
  1338. BU has too many issues to safely be considered the reference client.
  1339.  
  1340. csw [2:45 PM]
  1341. That should be encouraged. No transaction was lost and the overall system did not suffer, so why is this a problem generally?
  1342.  
  1343. [2:45]
  1344. Charlie, I do agree. But the solution does not need to be so difficult
  1345.  
  1346. charlieshrem [2:45 PM]
  1347. Agreed.
  1348.  
  1349. csw [2:46 PM]
  1350. And we can scale on and off chain at the same time
  1351.  
  1352.  
  1353. charlieshrem [2:46 PM]
  1354. Agreed as well.
  1355.  
  1356. [2:46]
  1357. I feel like good solutions have come alight, but are blocked/put down based on who their authors are.
  1358.  
  1359. csw [2:46 PM]
  1360. In the 8 years, Moore's law has held and will continue.
  1361.  
  1362. [2:49]
  1363. Did any of you know that a 2nm transistor was created. This was something considered impossible. It is lower than the 7nm Quantum tunnelling effect.
  1364.  
  1365. lunar [2:49 PM]
  1366. @csw . Good afternoon. I'm just one small cog in the Bitcoin Unlimited team, but we've been trying to solve the blocksize issue for several years now. I was interested in what you thought about the emergent consensus solution? The idea BU implements, by giving miners the tools to signal between each other and come to a free market driven determination of the blocksize commodity, with an adjustable block cap. Thanks
  1367.  
  1368. csw [2:49 PM]
  1369. This occurred in 2012.
  1370.  
  1371. [2:49]
  1372. I think that miners need to decide.
  1373.  
  1374.  
  1375. joeldalais [2:50 PM]
  1376. can i ask - what is nChain bringing to the table? will it be a new client implementation? actual development (instead of this stalling we've had for years)? new teams of programmers (seems you have a very strong team)? business solutions? end user solutions? or - a mix of everything and more? or don't worry if its too early to ask (edited)
  1377.  
  1378. csw [2:51 PM]
  1379. In 2009/10, the value of Bitcoin was far too low for flood control to work based on fees without a cap.
  1380.  
  1381. tomothy
  1382. [2:51 PM]
  1383. See above, not really discussing nchain
  1384.  
  1385. joeldalais [2:51 PM]
  1386. fair enough :slightly_smiling_face:
  1387.  
  1388. Pinned by jp
  1389. Today at 2:52 PM Pinned by jp
  1390. csw [2:51 PM]
  1391. I will not discuss the business side here sorry. There is a team who do that. I focus on code and maths
  1392.  
  1393. [2:51]
  1394. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/main.cpp
  1395. GitHub
  1396. trottier/original-bitcoin
  1397. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  1398.  
  1399.  
  1400. [2:51]
  1401. Please have a quick look at the 0.1.3 and earlier code
  1402.  
  1403. joeldalais [2:51 PM]
  1404. ok, then i'll be quiet and soak up what knowledge i can :slightly_smiling_face:
  1405.  
  1406. csw [2:52 PM]
  1407. Lines 2249 as comments and on:
  1408.  
  1409. // Transaction fee requirements, mainly only needed for flood control
  1410. // Under 10K (about 80 inputs) is free for first 100 transactions
  1411. // Base rate is 0.01 per KB
  1412.  
  1413. [2:53]
  1414. It is simple to create a flood based fee system
  1415.  
  1416. newliberty [2:53 PM]
  1417. For QC threats over the coming years, Shor's algo for keys and Grover's for hashing are concerns, but they will hit most every other security protocol before they are problems for Bitcoin, so should ample be time to resolve, and the failures of others to learn from. I imagine these were design considerations? Care to comment on this?
  1418.  
  1419. csw [2:53 PM]
  1420. Offer a set amount for free and then have a capped value - not a limit, let TXs pay to be in if there are too many (as decided by the market and not a committee)
  1421.  
  1422. [2:54]
  1423. QC is bunk
  1424.  
  1425. [2:54]
  1426. Grover's algo means a large QC could solve a hash in a billion years or so... classical growth will solve this faster
  1427.  
  1428. [2:55]
  1429. As for Shor's, the rate of calculation would lead to a 110 or longer solution time when a private key has been exposed.
  1430.  
  1431. [2:55]
  1432. This means that a 20 billion USD system could solve for 3 keys a year.
  1433.  
  1434. [2:56]
  1435. As a consequence, large values could be moved to multiple keys or even to multi sig systems.
  1436.  
  1437. [2:56]
  1438. I have a paper being published in this area. It took time. I needed to study some more physics first.
  1439.  
  1440. satoshi [2:57 PM]
  1441. joined #general
  1442.  
  1443. awemany [2:57 PM]
  1444. what is "110 or longer"?
  1445.  
  1446. vlad2vlad [2:57 PM]
  1447. Oh look, Satoshi is here. Lol
  1448.  
  1449.  
  1450. [2:57]
  1451. This is getting good
  1452.  
  1453. newliberty [2:58 PM]
  1454. The double hashing resolves most the preimage issues, and one-time use of coins means there is only the window of time from transmission to mining to crack, so had guessed that these were considered from the beginning.
  1455.  
  1456. csw [2:58 PM]
  1457. At a discounted rate of 1 Billion USD a key per annum, the requirement would be that a key would need to have 100 BIT stored and to have a based value of 100 million USD per BTC to make attacking Bitcoin ECDSA keys valid.
  1458.  
  1459. [2:59]
  1460. More, the double hash means that the input to the hash needs to be of a set size. The collision problem allows for scaled solutions.
  1461.  
  1462. satoshi [2:59 PM]
  1463. I am not Satoshi.
  1464.  
  1465. csw [2:59 PM]
  1466. So, if you have a set number of collisions, you find that the possibility of a valid collision diminishes
  1467.  
  1468. vlad2vlad [3:00 PM]
  1469. For crying outloud @satoshi I thought you were. Lol
  1470.  
  1471. jp [3:01 PM]
  1472. Can we focus on the technical discussion here?
  1473.  
  1474.  
  1475. satoshi [3:01 PM]
  1476. What is the most productive thing the average user can do to support on-chain scaling?
  1477.  
  1478. csw [3:01 PM]
  1479. There are an estimated infinite number of collisions for any hash, but the size is indeterminate.
  1480.  
  1481. [3:02]
  1482. Satoshi, use bitcoin and call for real solutions. This is not 2 Mb. From 09 to now, systems have increased about 100x
  1483.  
  1484.  
  1485. [3:02]
  1486. In this time, we have not moved from a cap that was set for flood control at all.
  1487.  
  1488. freetrader [3:03 PM]
  1489. joined #general
  1490.  
  1491. csw [3:03 PM]
  1492. Can I ask people to look at the code comments in the 0.1.0 to 0.1.3 release.
  1493.  
  1494. joeldalais [3:03 PM]
  1495. its where its noted as 'flood control'?
  1496.  
  1497. csw [3:03 PM]
  1498. I think that it was rather clear, but then I have a habbit of losing people
  1499.  
  1500. [3:04]
  1501. Yes.
  1502.  
  1503. [3:04]
  1504. There should always be free TXs
  1505.  
  1506.  
  1507. joeldalais [3:04 PM]
  1508. people seem to gaze over that part and ignore it :disappointed:
  1509.  
  1510. csw [3:04 PM]
  1511. Where the idea of a cap should be is a market decided limit that is not stopped, but sold at value
  1512.  
  1513. [3:04]
  1514. Nobody reads the code comments :disappointed:
  1515.  
  1516. [3:05]
  1517. There was a 100 TB drive released in the last 6 months.
  1518.  
  1519. [3:06]
  1520. This i not a standard laptop addition, but the truth is that we are in a world were exponential scaling is occuring and against that we have a logistic one.
  1521.  
  1522. awemany [3:06 PM]
  1523. csw, tbh, you lost me with the above calculations. why is it '1 billion USD a key *per annum*?". Ialso do not understand " The collision problem allows for scaled solutions.". I assume that "More, the double hash means that the input to the hash needs to be of a set size." means that the input width is fixed for the 2nd SHA256? Why is that relevant and important?
  1524.  
  1525. newliberty [3:06 PM]
  1526. Storing the full chain costs about 0.001BTC worth of drive today
  1527.  
  1528. csw [3:07 PM]
  1529. Can I assume that people understand the distinction between a logistic and exponential growth system?
  1530.  
  1531. ajd [3:07 PM]
  1532. csw were you on IRC while you were developing Bitcoin?
  1533.  
  1534. joeldalais [3:07 PM]
  1535. i was looking at bandwidth+drive space (costs) some while back, the growth/cost over the last 15 years. It boggles my mind why people think this growth will suddenly stop, there is certainly room now and in the future.
  1536.  
  1537. csw [3:07 PM]
  1538. Shor is not the same as linear classical systems.
  1539.  
  1540. [3:08]
  1541. If you have a 20 Billion USD system, and you can factor 3 keys a year, a basic IRR means you come to a value a little over 1 billion USD for each key.
  1542.  
  1543. [3:09]
  1544. joeldalais, the Intel roadmap is strong for the next 2 decades.
  1545.  
  1546.  
  1547. tomtomtom7 [3:09 PM]
  1548. csw: Sorry if blunt, but could you comment on why you let Gavin vouch for you without going public with proof yourself?
  1549.  
  1550. csw [3:09 PM]
  1551. http://gizmodo.com/5807151/2-nanometer-quantum-transistors-are-the-worlds-smallest
  1552. Gizmodo
  1553. 2-Nanometer Quantum Transistors Are the World's Smallest
  1554. A team of scientists at Chungbuk National University in South Korea have created a transistor that&#39;s only 2nm in size, which happens to be the smallest in the world. By comparison, the current generation of Intel processors use 32nm transistors. (35kB)
  1555.  
  1556. [3:10]
  1557. Moving goal posts.
  1558.  
  1559. [3:10]
  1560. Tomx3+7, I had never wanted what occured and I had no plans to be an authority. I will not
  1561.  
  1562. [3:11]
  1563. I will be a scammer with ideas that go to market before I become something I detest and people wanted that. They dressed me in a bloody turtle neck!
  1564.  
  1565.  
  1566. [3:12]
  1567. I have NEVER worn a frikin turtle neck in my life. Like I was bloody jobs or something.
  1568.  
  1569.  
  1570. [3:12]
  1571. I made stupid decisions and I, as all do, have regrets.
  1572.  
  1573.  
  1574. joeldalais [3:13 PM]
  1575. its not that bad decisions are done, but how we act after that matters
  1576.  
  1577. csw [3:13 PM]
  1578. I am not good with people. This is difficult for me now. Vlad and others have pushed me to be here and to be frank it scares the shit out of me
  1579.  
  1580.  
  1581. tomtomtom7 [3:14 PM]
  1582. thank you csw
  1583.  
  1584. joeldalais [3:14 PM]
  1585. great respect for being here at all :slightly_smiling_face:
  1586.  
  1587.  
  1588. jp [3:14 PM]
  1589. Incompleteness.
  1590.  
  1591. travin [3:14 PM]
  1592. Thanks for that, Craig. It's well-appreciated.
  1593.  
  1594. joeldalais [3:15 PM]
  1595. and for what its worth, i think you're doing fine here
  1596.  
  1597. csw [3:15 PM]
  1598. Ta
  1599.  
  1600. jp [3:17 PM]
  1601. csw: you are better with code and math.
  1602.  
  1603. csw [3:17 PM]
  1604. LOL
  1605.  
  1606. new messages
  1607. jp [3:18 PM]
  1608. Worked with you for 7 years so I know ;)
  1609.  
  1610. newliberty [3:23 PM]
  1611. Maybe we work up with some worthy competition in the next 7.
  1612.  
  1613. ajd [3:26 PM]
  1614. Have you changed your opinion on multiple implementations and if so why?
  1615.  
  1616. cypherblock [3:26 PM]
  1617. @csw how long did it take the write the original bitcoin source code?
  1618.  
  1619. csw [3:27 PM]
  1620. I am not going to play Satoshi. I am not wanting to have people think I am and I am going to imagine that nobody ever doxx'd me and that I am just some overqualified academic for the moment... ok?
  1621.  
  1622.  
  1623. tomothy
  1624. [3:28 PM]
  1625. Oh, what's the new masters you are getting?
  1626.  
  1627. ajd [3:28 PM]
  1628. OK. I'm asking csw that question.
  1629.  
  1630. jp [3:28 PM]
  1631. Csw is just a con artist and an asshole. Move along, nothing to see.
  1632.  
  1633.  
  1634. csw [3:28 PM]
  1635. The code should compete, but what matters is that there is a reference protocol
  1636.  
  1637.  
  1638. [3:29]
  1639. I am completing a MSc right now. It is in financial econometrics
  1640.  
  1641.  
  1642. [3:29]
  1643. Uni of London
  1644.  
  1645. joeldalais [3:29 PM]
  1646. hypothetical question .. do you think it would be possible to link 2 blockchains together via a 2nd layer (that ran the same algo). A 2nd layer that basically just read and fed back data from both chains?
  1647.  
  1648. csw [3:30 PM]
  1649. I have put in a proposal into Cambridge for another PhD in Pure Mathematics this time. I hope to start that in Oct
  1650. 1 reply Today at 3:31 PM View thread
  1651.  
  1652. libitx [3:30 PM]
  1653. joined #general
  1654.  
  1655. joeldalais [3:30 PM]
  1656. its a good uni, think one of my sisters went there
  1657.  
  1658. cypherblock [3:30 PM]
  1659. any thoughts on recent ext block proposals (or ext blocks in general with ability to move coins back and forth between main and ext)?
  1660.  
  1661. csw [3:30 PM]
  1662. I see issues, but this is not a place to discuss that.
  1663.  
  1664. [3:31]
  1665. There are too many problems with the discussion of complex issues in a few words. I have a few papers and I will be publishing again soon.
  1666.  
  1667. joeldalais [3:31 PM]
  1668. sounds good :slightly_smiling_face:
  1669.  
  1670. csw [3:31 PM]
  1671. People can read and accept or dismiss the arguments that I pose in those papers.
  1672.  
  1673. cypherblock [3:32 PM]
  1674. expected pub date? or too soon to say?
  1675.  
  1676. prometheus [3:33 PM]
  1677. joined #general
  1678.  
  1679. csw [3:33 PM]
  1680. Peer review...
  1681.  
  1682. Pinned by jp
  1683. Today at 3:34 PM Pinned by jp
  1684. [3:34]
  1685. Some have been completed... peer review is a difficult mistress. Worse than my wife :slightly_smiling_face:
  1686.  
  1687.  
  1688. newliberty [3:34 PM]
  1689. Peers can be difficult to come by
  1690.  
  1691.  
  1692. awemany [3:37 PM]
  1693. csw, so I am still trying to parse your above comments on using shor to crack a priv key. what I do not understand where the double hash comes in? I only see the single rpemd160 one.
  1694.  
  1695. csw [3:38 PM]
  1696. Sha256
  1697.  
  1698. tomothy
  1699. [3:38 PM]
  1700. CSW, which alt should I buy tomorrow? (don't hurt me)
  1701.  
  1702.  
  1703. csw [3:39 PM]
  1704. :stuck_out_tongue:
  1705.  
  1706.  
  1707. jp [3:39 PM]
  1708. I guess it is Diem
  1709.  
  1710. awemany [3:39 PM]
  1711. ok, sure, SHA256. but where does that come into play in cracking priv/pub pairs?
  1712.  
  1713. newliberty [3:39 PM]
  1714. Guaranteed it will hurt if you do. Rumor is we are running out of bitcoins to buy.
  1715.  
  1716. csw [3:39 PM]
  1717. 2 sec
  1718.  
  1719.  
  1720. tomothy
  1721. [3:41 PM]
  1722. On a serious note, thoughts on Monero, or ZEC, similar coins & code (confidential transactions) with regards to anonymity? Is anonymity something you see being brought to bitcoin in the near/far future? I know blockchain analytics have significantly improved and coin taint can be a concern for some. I.e., BTC tumblers essentially no longer working.
  1723.  
  1724.  
  1725. vlad2vlad [3:41 PM]
  1726. @tomothy Nuggets!! Buy NUGS if you wanna be rich.
  1727.  
  1728. awemany [3:42 PM]
  1729. @tomothy : tumblers don't work, why is that?
  1730. 9 replies Last reply today at 3:48 PM View thread
  1731.  
  1732. klee [3:42 PM]
  1733. joined #general
  1734.  
  1735. awemany [3:43 PM]
  1736. @tomothy : monero is mostly BTC in constant tumbler mode and seems to be working fine, privacy wise. so I don't see how bitcoin is fundamentally lacking. Now, sure, most people do NOT anonymize their TXN because it is a PITA with the current tools, but I see no reason how BTC is lacking there in principle
  1737.  
  1738. Pinned by jp
  1739. Today at 3:44 PM Pinned by jp
  1740. csw [3:43 PM]
  1741. The reality is there is nothing to fear
  1742. Most importantly, bitcoin uses a double hashing algorithm. The results of this scenario is that any unused bitcoin address will not be reversible to the public key, let alone able to be attacked through a reversal of the ECDSA key pair. Algorithm such as Grover's algorithm (Grover, 1996) are touted as being able to speed up the searching through possible collisions in the reversing of hashing algorithms including SHA-256.
  1743. This algorithm is known to be at best a solution in BPP ( ), a class of decision problem that is decidable in polynomial time with an error probability bounded by 1/3 (for all inputs). The idea is that this error rate can be minimised or made to be exponentially small in 'k" using a process of iterating the algorithm 'k' times with the most frequent value returned as the result. This process ignores the noise of the quantum computer and reports an error rate based on the ideal system alone. Bennet et al. (1997) demonstrate how an ideal quantum Turning machine cannot find a solution to an NP problem in less than time . For SHA-256, this is time and is a far more difficult problem when the true problem, the solution of a bounded size hash to a hash puzzle is introduced. His conclusion was that “Anyone afraid of quantum hash-collision algorithms already has much more to fear from non-quantum hash-collision algorithms”.
  1744. More importantly, when Bernstein (2009, ) analysed the known quantum algorithms he demonstrated conclusively that “all the quantum-collision algorithms in the literature are steps backwards from the non-quantum algorithm of (Oorschot, et al. ). In other words, any attack on the hash functions of Bitcoin would be more effective using a classical computer.
  1745. Bitcoin is thus secure against (theoretical) quantum computer attacks against a key that has not been used. Once a transaction is signed and sent to the blockchain, an attacker can extract the public key. This is not a flaw in the algorithm but a standard part of the functioning of ECC and ECDSA based systems. The question is then, what is the cost to an attacker to break the ECDSA key itself?
  1746. Grover’s algorithm could be said to reduce the bit-security of such primitives by half; one might say that a 256-bit pre-quantum primitive offers only 128-bit security in a post-quantum setting. This is far too large to be broken on any QC any time in the foreseeable future. However, Bitcoin uses the Hash of a Hash. The combination of both SHA256 bit hashes of SHA256 values and the use of a 160Bit RipeMD hash of a SHA256 value for an address makes the analysis of bitcoin addresses to uncover the private key infeasible.
  1747. Attacking ECDSA with Shor
  1748. Let us for a moment assume that a working solution to the problem of creating logical qubits on a FTQC that can maintain coherence for long time periods can be achieved. We next need to note that Shor's algorithm is not simple and a Universal QC would need specialised breaks - you cannot just solve ECC in one hit as is suggested by many pundits.
  1749. The other common fallacy and assumption is that a FTQC will just factor the private key before you can spend. It is more probable that even a 1 million logical qubit FTQC system would likely take weeks or months to break 256 bit ECDSA keys.
  1750.  
  1751. [3:44]
  1752. On the basis of these numbers, performing a 2048-bit number Shor factorization will take on the order of 110 days and require a system size of 2 × 109 trapped ions.
  1753. Trapping 2 × 109 ions will require 23 × 23 vacuum chambers occupying an area of ca. 103.5 × 103.5 m2.
  1754.  
  1755. Pinned by jp
  1756. Today at 3:46 PM Pinned by jp
  1757. [3:44]
  1758. Bitcoin Mining.
  1759. As we noted from Bernstein’s (2009) results, quantum computers are slower at solving hash collision than are algorithms for the deployment on classical systems. Hence, there is no economic benefit for a miner to use Quantum Computers for the solution of hash puzzles as they would solve fewer hashes than a miner on a more traditional ASIC. This excludes the costs of the Quantum computer as well (which is significant) and does not consider the fact that qubits are slower to process than bits (Bernstein, 2009). The result is that a miner who was to deploy a Quantum computer for the mining of Bitcoin (if one was to ever exist in the first place) would be at an economic disadvantage to a miner using more traditional ASIC based systems.
  1760. Post-quantum cryptography ( ), a purported non-partisan site for the scientific dissemination of information concerning the effects of quantum computing on cryptography that is heavily used by partisan personalities including Vitalik Buterin, (co-founder of Ethereum) starts with the doom saying prophecy:
  1761. “"Imagine that it's fifteen years from now. Somebody announces that he's built a large quantum computer. RSA is dead. DSA is dead. Elliptic curves, hyperelliptic curves, class groups, whatever, dead, dead, dead. So users are going to run around screaming and say 'Oh my God, what do we do?'”
  1762. This false prophecy is clearly misleadingly designed to read as if it was a quote from Daniel Bernstein’s ( ) analysis. The removal of the line “The New York Times runs a frontpage article reporting that all of the public-key algorithms used to protect the Internet have been broken” changes the context where the author starts by stating, “A closer look reveals, however, that there is no justification for the leap from “quantum computers destroy RSA and DSA and ECDSA” to “quantum computers destroy cryptography.””
  1763. More importantly, no consideration of the costs and time in uncovering a private key has been announced. As Bernstein (2009 ) also demonstrated, the move to alternate hashing algorithms is unwarranted due to theoretical quantum computers even were they to become a reality.
  1764.  
  1765.  
  1766. So, please never listen to the FUD. Forget ideas such as Lamport Signatures. Bitcoin is as it is for a reason and the reason that these others who worry about science fiction did not create it is the reason we need to maintain it as the protocol was created.
  1767.  
  1768.  
  1769. [3:44]
  1770. Sorry... parts of a paper I am writing.
  1771.  
  1772. new messages
  1773. awemany [3:46 PM]
  1774. ok, thanks, let me digest that
  1775.  
  1776. tomothy
  1777. [3:50 PM]
  1778. CSW can you address thoughts regarding privacy concerns on the blockchain and comment on coins that attempt to address some of those issues? I mean, it's recognized that it's a "PUBLIC LEDGER" with "PUBLIC WALLETS" so... but still it's an interesting topic and I just wanted to see your thoughts.
  1779.  
  1780. [3:51]
  1781. Also, someone was wondering what your thoughts were about "vaults". Not sure if you've seen the article. http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/02/26/how-to-implement-secure-bitcoin-vaults/
  1782. Hacking Distributed
  1783. How to Implement Secure Bitcoin Vaults
  1784. We have come up with a simple and elegant technique for implementing hack-proof Bitcoin vaults, to deter Bitcoin thefts. (176kB)
  1785.  
  1786. csw [3:51 PM]
  1787. Threshold signatures.
  1788.  
  1789. csw [3:52 PM]
  1790. The problem with signatures is solvable using set theory. Anyone know about Cantor's use of diagonalism?
  1791. 5 replies Last reply today at 3:57 PM View thread
  1792.  
  1793. hankdasilva [3:54 PM]
  1794. joined #general
  1795.  
  1796. klee [3:54 PM]
  1797. I am the guy interested for the Vault thing
  1798.  
  1799. newliberty [3:54 PM]
  1800. Infinite sets comparisons
  1801.  
  1802. klee [3:55 PM]
  1803. and also if BitCoin blockchain was made transparent (regarding anonymity, privacy) by design
  1804.  
  1805. [3:55]
  1806. or was the best thought back in the day
  1807.  
  1808. awemany [3:56 PM]
  1809. csw, so I read the above, I see most parts of where you are coming from now and it makes sense. however, the only thing remaining is the double-hashing, which is unclear to me. what does it add in terms of security in terms of QC considerations? Grover's algo will work in sqrt(n) both for a single and a double hash and the double hashing is just a constant factor in time - no?
  1810.  
  1811. tomothy [3:56 PM]
  1812. "jp [3 minutes ago]
  1813. csw: had a conversation with Dr. Conway about Cantor
  1814.  
  1815. tomothy [2 minutes ago]
  1816. JP does that have to do with anonymity or storing of txs
  1817.  
  1818. csw [1 minute ago]
  1819. Keys. And there are ways that you can make keys more private as well... but again, too much for slack
  1820.  
  1821. tomothy
  1822. [< 1 minute ago]
  1823. Thanks, will repost into slack as threads aren't stored easy."
  1824.  
  1825. newliberty [3:57 PM]
  1826. Surreal numbers, Conway worked on something related. JP met with him a while back
  1827.  
  1828. [3:57]
  1829. Not sure how it applies though
  1830.  
  1831. iang [3:58 PM]
  1832. joined #general
  1833.  
  1834.  
  1835. jp [3:58 PM]
  1836. Welcome Ian grigg
  1837.  
  1838. newliberty [3:59 PM]
  1839. This is a rich meal of food for thought
  1840.  
  1841. csw [3:59 PM]
  1842. Hello Ian.
  1843.  
  1844. iang [3:59 PM]
  1845. good morning all
  1846.  
  1847.  
  1848. jp [4:00 PM]
  1849. Our bloody buddy is here Ian.
  1850.  
  1851. csw [4:00 PM]
  1852. In distributed thresholds you have the (n+1) vs (2n+1) issue
  1853.  
  1854. [4:00]
  1855. Sorry, there is not a lot that can be explained in this without maths.
  1856.  
  1857. newliberty [4:02 PM]
  1858. Yes, it gives diagonalism, infinite sets which are not equal
  1859.  
  1860. vlad2vlad [4:03 PM]
  1861. Man, this channel is full of world class talent.
  1862.  
  1863.  
  1864. tomothy
  1865. [4:04 PM]
  1866. Do you think Grigg has been credited properly?
  1867.  
  1868. [4:04]
  1869. With regards to triple entry?
  1870.  
  1871. iang [4:05 PM]
  1872. lol. triple entry is a concept, it’s a bit difficult to just turn around and implement. A bit like smart contracts.
  1873.  
  1874. klee [4:05 PM]
  1875. https://youtu.be/4GuqlQvFYJo
  1876. YouTube Bitcoin News TV
  1877. Craig Wright Interview - Part 1 - 2014 - Satoshi?
  1878.  
  1879. luke-jr [4:07 PM]
  1880. joined #general
  1881.  
  1882. vlad2vlad [4:07 PM]
  1883. That video was GREAT!!!
  1884.  
  1885. [4:07]
  1886. Hey Luke!!
  1887.  
  1888. [4:07]
  1889. Glad you accepted my invite. :)
  1890.  
  1891. Pinned by jp
  1892. Today at 4:08 PM Pinned by jp
  1893. iang [4:07 PM]
  1894. if you look at the list of credits in the bitcoin paper, it’s very light - only 8. Misses out on the entire digital cash tradition which was a squillion references. Also, the paper wasn’t written for a conference - a thing that is a thing. There are these days a lot of papers that just don’t do the academic track.
  1895.  
  1896. vlad2vlad [4:08 PM]
  1897. Is it too late to get my name in the whitepaper? Just asking?
  1898.  
  1899. new messages
  1900. klee [4:08 PM]
  1901. $1570 at stamp
  1902. 1 reply Today at 4:09 PM View thread
  1903.  
  1904. luke-jr [4:08 PM]
  1905. "IRC is disabled for your team. Ask your Team Owner to enable it."
  1906.  
  1907. klee [4:08 PM]
  1908. off topic?
  1909.  
  1910. awemany [4:09 PM]
  1911. @bitsko , was it you who set this up? maybe you can help @luke-jr ?
  1912.  
  1913. iang [4:10 PM]
  1914. What are the rules of engagement?
  1915.  
  1916. luke-jr [4:11 PM]
  1917. @iang Get married within months?
  1918.  
  1919. [4:11]
  1920. :stuck_out_tongue: (edited)
  1921.  
  1922. iang [4:11 PM]
  1923. @luke-jr … months? You want me in pain and trauma for months? can’t we make it days?
  1924.  
  1925. [4:12]
  1926. question I’ve never understood - what is the purpose of the double hash?
  1927.  
  1928. luke-jr [4:12 PM]
  1929. within != at
  1930.  
  1931. [4:12]
  1932. what double hash?
  1933.  
  1934. tomothy
  1935. [4:12 PM]
  1936. It's bitsko's slack. I'm pretty sure he's AFK. I don't know about the IRC stuff, never needed it in here...
  1937.  
  1938. awemany [4:12 PM]
  1939. @iang , agree on the double hash. there was some exchange with csw above on it regarding QC. I am really curious as well
  1940.  
  1941. iang [4:13 PM]
  1942. oh wait - scratch that I see there is something written above.
  1943.  
  1944. awemany [4:13 PM]
  1945. there is - but can you explain it to me? I am kind of lost. I don't see how it makes Grover's algo better in regards to QC, except for a constant factor
  1946.  
  1947. csw [4:14 PM]
  1948. Double hashing means that the input to one hash is limited to a set size. It means that the number of collisions is reduced to neatly zero from infinite,
  1949.  
  1950.  
  1951. luke-jr [4:15 PM]
  1952. oh, that. somehow I thought you meant twitter # hash :stuck_out_tongue:
  1953.  
  1954. iang [4:15 PM]
  1955. there’s a lot of twitter redundancy :wink:
  1956.  
  1957. jp [4:16 PM]
  1958. Luke-jr vs CSW scale debate ding ding ding. Everyone sit back.
  1959.  
  1960. Speak only if you are devs or important figures ( if u think u 're lol) (edited)
  1961.  
  1962. toodarkmark [4:16 PM]
  1963. joined #general
  1964.  
  1965. luke-jr [4:16 PM]
  1966. semi-AFK until IRC gets turned on
  1967.  
  1968. csw [4:16 PM]
  1969. OK. I am going to cut and paste. Email was easier on lists this thing open stuff all over
  1970.  
  1971. iang [4:17 PM]
  1972. (I am reading it)
  1973.  
  1974. csw [4:17 PM]
  1975. I want to see Bitcoin scale significantly and this means opening it up to merchants who will run a node in a back office.
  1976.  
  1977. To grow to be able to avoid government taking it over, we have to have 100s of thousands of globally dispersed systems.
  1978.  
  1979. This is possible. If you think of a Coffee shop, they have public keys on the PoS and a system in the Back office.
  1980.  
  1981. Each merchant will want to ensure that they have a TX propagated as fast as possible, in seconds really.
  1982.  
  1983. Bitcoin is not really a Gossip model, but it is the simplest way to explain this to CompSci people
  1984.  
  1985. It is an SEIR-C
  1986.  
  1987. This:
  1988. http://people.cs.vt.edu/naren/papers/wsdm2014-difnet-competing-cascades-agenda-setting-camera-ready.pdf
  1989.  
  1990. or https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-9-87
  1991. That is the easiest way I can say it without code or maths.
  1992.  
  1993. If we create a system that opens to merchants and can operate as a PoS, the end is that we have a means to transfer wealth at lower costs than Visa and the banks
  1994.  
  1995. That makes us competitive and thus allows more people to enter and to allow scale.
  1996.  
  1997. With me so far?
  1998. There are over 1 million mid sized merchants and more when you take other trading entities.
  1999. We could out scale Visa with a larger growth factor with an upfront cost of the hardware at 20,000 USD or lower a year
  2000. In ten years, we could have a 20k system that can scale to encompass all global commerce.
  2001.  
  2002. In 20 years, the costs of this system would be under 500USD partity
  2003.  
  2004. There is so much more to it, but I cannot type it on the fly.
  2005. BMC Medicine
  2006. Simulation of an SEIR infectious disease model on the dynamic contact network of conference attendees
  2007. The spread of infectious diseases crucially depends on the pattern of contacts between individuals. Knowledge of these patterns is thus essential to inform models and computational efforts. However, there are few empirical studies available that provide estimates of the number and duration of contacts between social groups. Moreover, their space and time resolutions are limited, so that data are not explicit at the person-to-person level, and the dynamic nature of the contacts is disregarded. In Show more… (40kB)
  2008.  
  2009.  
  2010. awemany [4:19 PM]
  2011. csw: ok, on the double-hashing, still working on grokking it. so basically you say: SHA256(random-length-bit-string) has potentially a lot more collisions than SHA256(256-bit-long-string)?
  2012.  
  2013. csw [4:19 PM]
  2014. SHA256 has an infinite number of collisions
  2015.  
  2016. awemany [4:19 PM]
  2017. because of the infinite bitstream length you can put into it?
  2018.  
  2019. csw [4:19 PM]
  2020. But, choosing a particular collision is what the problem is
  2021.  
  2022. [4:20]
  2023. Yes, It is an Aleph 1 problem
  2024.  
  2025. [4:20]
  2026. That is a second level Cantor set
  2027.  
  2028. tula [4:21 PM]
  2029. joined #general
  2030.  
  2031. csw [4:21 PM]
  2032. This is a class of sets in infinitarity problems (there is not one type of infinity but I cannot explain it here if you do not get it)
  2033.  
  2034. joeldalais [4:21 PM]
  2035. the 20k a year .. i think smaller businesses would find the savings really appealing (allowing them to grow), but the 20k is putting up a bit of a barrier for them... perhaps it could be 20k over X time?
  2036.  
  2037. iang [4:21 PM]
  2038. ok, I’ll re-read the hash commentary later, but the tl;dr is that it addresses weaknesses from QC. My immediate knee-jerk is that if QC is in place we’ve got many many other problems to worry about … but sure.
  2039.  
  2040. freetrader [4:21 PM]
  2041. I'm having a problem seeing the 'reduces collisions to zero'.
  2042. Is that proven math?
  2043. 1 reply Today at 4:23 PM View thread
  2044.  
  2045. newliberty [4:21 PM]
  2046. Countable and uncountable infinities
  2047.  
  2048. joeldalais [4:21 PM]
  2049. optional 20k over X time, bigger businesses would be fine
  2050.  
  2051. csw [4:21 PM]
  2052. Joeld... There can be companies that serve companies
  2053.  
  2054. joeldalais [4:22 PM]
  2055. ahh yes, i see what you mean
  2056.  
  2057. csw [4:22 PM]
  2058. This way, the back office PoS can be distributed for smaller companies
  2059.  
  2060. [4:22]
  2061. Well, actually there are both an infinity of countable and uncountable infinities.
  2062.  
  2063. [4:22]
  2064. It send Cantor mad... literally
  2065.  
  2066. new messages
  2067. joeldalais [4:23 PM]
  2068. an infinite infinities :slightly_smiling_face: people used to give me weird looks when i used to say that about bitcoin
  2069.  
  2070. newliberty [4:23 PM]
  2071.  
  2072. freetrader: preimaging a hash for a collision with a dataset of unbounded size is a much easier problem than doing so with a fixed size
  2073.  
  2074. csw [4:23 PM]
  2075. NL... not zero, 2 as a maxima
  2076.  
  2077.  
  2078. awemany [4:23 PM]
  2079. csw, I see no aleph1 anywhere? all I see is that sha256^2 reduces from alelph0 to uint256 in the middle between the hashes?
  2080.  
  2081. freetrader [4:23 PM]
  2082. @newliberty : sure, but if anyone has proven that there are 'zero' SHA256 collisions on input size of 256 bits, I'd like to know
  2083. 3 replies Last reply today at 4:28 PM View thread
  2084.  
  2085. csw [4:23 PM]
  2086. But, the collisions are infeasible to solve
  2087.  
  2088. joeldalais [4:23 PM]
  2089. i can see a chain of businesses forming to create what you're talking about...
  2090.  
  2091. pesa [4:23 PM]
  2092. joined #general
  2093.  
  2094. csw [4:25 PM]
  2095. Awe.. the Aleph 1 comes from an unbounded set of input functions. That is not the case when a single hash is input to a hash
  2096.  
  2097. [4:26]
  2098. Freetrader. Yes, the maths to prove the reduction is proven and not just by axiomic conditions that are not completely determined.
  2099.  
  2100. newliberty [4:26 PM]
  2101. "Nearly zero" (though I think he misspelled it as neatly zero)
  2102.  
  2103. awemany [4:26 PM]
  2104. where does the unbounded set of input functions come from?
  2105. 2 replies Last reply today at 4:29 PM View thread
  2106.  
  2107. csw [4:27 PM]
  2108. In the input to a hash function, the standard calls for a stream. That stream can be of any form
  2109.  
  2110. newliberty [4:27 PM]
  2111. awemany: If there were sha256 not 2sha256
  2112.  
  2113. awemany [4:28 PM]
  2114. csw, right, but the closure of that is just aleph0?
  2115.  
  2116. csw [4:28 PM]
  2117. Yes, or lower when you bound the input
  2118.  
  2119. [4:29]
  2120. A stream is an unbounded set.
  2121. Note that this is in itself not infinite. That is finite but unbounded. Add to that infinite and the set increases again.
  2122. Joel... Yes, and in a set of companies and businesses, we create a system that can self regulate and grow.
  2123.  
  2124.  
  2125. awemany [4:31 PM]
  2126. but all the streams I actually can hash appear to be strictly enumerable? it is not like SHA256 works on *infinite* streams?
  2127.  
  2128. checksum0 [4:31 PM]
  2129. joined #general. Also, @mastodon joined.
  2130.  
  2131. csw [4:32 PM]
  2132. SHA256 works on infinite the same way any machine works on infinite... You never halt and hence it is never solved in real time. It is in the conceptual infinite
  2133.  
  2134. [4:33]
  2135. We have a distinction here between an implemented system and a mathematically possible state.
  2136.  
  2137. awemany [4:33 PM]
  2138. ok. fair enough. i can see that now. thanks!
  2139.  
  2140. joeldalais [4:33 PM]
  2141. when i thought that i couldn't have anymore 'epiphany' moments in bitcoin, another occurs :slightly_smiling_face: ty csw
  2142.  
  2143.  
  2144. csw [4:34 PM]
  2145. This is going to get me in so much trouble. I know it.
  2146.  
  2147. joeldalais [4:34 PM]
  2148. :smile:
  2149.  
  2150. [4:34]
  2151. nah, we've been lucky so far, no trolls, its been good sensible talking :slightly_smiling_face:
  2152.  
  2153. odindillinger [4:35 PM]
  2154. joined #general
  2155.  
  2156. csw [4:35 PM]
  2157. If we now start to look at network propagation models. In epidemic modelling we have giant nodes at the point of decision between competing epidemics
  2158.  
  2159.  
  2160. iang [4:35 PM]
  2161. r any changes necessary to base protocol to go to coffeechain?
  2162.  
  2163. jp [4:35 PM]
  2164. It is Hidden Markov Chain
  2165.  
  2166. csw [4:35 PM]
  2167. These are able to be made into propagation systems. Routers you may say.
  2168.  
  2169. [4:35]
  2170. Yes, the cap needs to be lifted.
  2171.  
  2172.  
  2173. iang [4:35 PM]
  2174. (I’m not familiar with the argument as to how this is done… just trying to divide and conquer…)
  2175.  
  2176. [4:36]
  2177. Ah, that’s easy.
  2178.  
  2179. csw [4:36 PM]
  2180. https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/92ee8d9a994391d148733da77e2bbc2f4acc43cd/src/main.cpp#L2249
  2181. GitHub
  2182. trottier/original-bitcoin
  2183. original-bitcoin - This is a historical repository of Satoshi Nakamoto's original bitcoin sourcecode
  2184.  
  2185.  
  2186. iang [4:36 PM]
  2187. :upside_down_face:
  2188.  
  2189. csw [4:36 PM]
  2190. The early code (commented) notes what is needed for flood control
  2191.  
  2192. awemany [4:37 PM]
  2193. csw, ok thanks you cleared this up, I think. to restate to figure out whether I got this: basically, you do the double hashing pretty much to make further analysis of the hash function - if taken as a black box - easier?
  2194.  
  2195. csw [4:38 PM]
  2196. A double hash reduces the input to a hash and makes collisions infeasible
  2197.  
  2198. [4:38]
  2199. MD5, SHA1...
  2200.  
  2201. [4:38]
  2202. All of this goes away when you have a hash of a hash
  2203.  
  2204. That means that when there is a flaw in the code, the hash function I should say, you end with enough time to migrate away and to another and even those who are left do not have a more than nominal chance of compromise
  2205.  
  2206. new messages
  2207. awemany [4:41 PM]
  2208. ok, thanks, I think I get the idea now. there's still nothing that proves SHA256 is surjective, however, or is there?
  2209.  
  2210. iang [4:41 PM]
  2211. In late 2000s this was a thing, post Shandong 2004.
  2212.  
  2213. chritchens [4:41 PM]
  2214. joined #general
  2215.  
  2216. csw [4:41 PM]
  2217. No, SHA256 has not been proven in all cases
  2218.  
  2219. [4:42]
  2220. So, there can be a particular SHA256 hash that maps to many 256 bit values
  2221.  
  2222. csw [4:43 PM]
  2223. uploaded this image: image.png
  2224. Add Comment
  2225.  
  2226. csw [4:43 PM]
  2227. Wow. This lets me post math images :slightly_smiling_face:
  2228.  
  2229. [4:44]
  2230. So, no, SHA 256 has not been proven surjective... That image above. There are axioms that need to be proven for this to hold
  2231.  
  2232. ajd [4:44 PM]
  2233. from wikipedia?
  2234.  
  2235. csw [4:44 PM]
  2236. Yes :slightly_smiling_face:
  2237.  
  2238. ajd [4:44 PM]
  2239. :smile:
  2240.  
  2241. csw [4:44 PM]
  2242. I could not get it to take Latex
  2243.  
  2244. csw [4:45 PM]
  2245. Can you do latex in this?
  2246. 1 reply Today at 4:45 PM View thread
  2247.  
  2248. awemany [4:45 PM]
  2249. so... that would get worse with double hashing, it potentially reduces the size of the output set. do you have any discussion on that trade-off?
  2250.  
  2251. csw [4:45 PM]
  2252. Not that I can really do justice to here
  2253.  
  2254. [4:46]
  2255. Does this thing have a whiteboard or something similar?
  2256.  
  2257. wpalczynski [4:46 PM]
  2258. joined #general
  2259.  
  2260. newliberty [4:46 PM]
  2261. No whiteboard in slack
  2262.  
  2263. csw [4:46 PM]
  2264. :disappointed:
  2265.  
  2266. newliberty [4:46 PM]
  2267. https://www.codecogs.com/latex/eqneditor.php
  2268. codecogs.com
  2269. Online LaTeX Equation Editor - create, integrate and download
  2270. HTML LaTeX equation editor that creates graphical equations (gif, png, swf, pdf, emf). Produces code for directly embedding equations into HTML websites, forums or blogs. Images may also be dragged into other applications like Word. Open source and XHTML compliant.
  2271.  
  2272. wpalczynski [4:47 PM]
  2273. hey!!
  2274.  
  2275. jp [4:47 PM]
  2276. You can livestream using 3rd app
  2277.  
  2278. klee [4:47 PM]
  2279. https://github.com/sand500/SlackLateX
  2280. GitHub
  2281. sand500/SlackLateX
  2282. SlackLateX - Bot that posts posts Latex pictures
  2283.  
  2284.  
  2285. csw [4:48 PM]
  2286. Got those, but no way to draw directly.
  2287.  
  2288. bicmac1973 [4:49 PM]
  2289. joined #general
  2290.  
  2291. klee [4:50 PM]
  2292. Just paste the captioned image (from elsewhere)
  2293.  
  2294. [4:50]
  2295. for me is the fastest way (edited)
  2296.  
  2297. csw [4:51 PM]
  2298. I will but answering on the fly is not so easy in latex :slightly_smiling_face:
  2299.  
  2300. coinspeak [4:51 PM]
  2301. joined #general
  2302.  
  2303. jp [4:51 PM]
  2304. Please consider doing some whiteboard videos in the future.
  2305.  
  2306. joeldalais [4:52 PM]
  2307. there's a paid sketch board thing for slack, but doubt this slack has it :disappointed:
  2308.  
  2309. csw [4:53 PM]
  2310. I have a big electronic whiteboard, but I do not think it has a slack plug
  2311.  
  2312.  
  2313. tomothy
  2314. [4:54 PM]
  2315. pretty sure bitsko's sleeping or at work, he mentioned it hours ago :confused:
  2316.  
  2317. jp [4:54 PM]
  2318. New slack ICO - decentralized whiteboard function included
  2319.  
  2320. tomothy
  2321. [4:54 PM]
  2322. ( I think work) (so can't add functions or change things currently)
  2323.  
  2324. satoshi [4:54 PM]
  2325. Ha!
  2326.  
  2327. joeldalais [4:54 PM]
  2328. https://sketchboard.io/pricing - for future reference (edited)
  2329.  
  2330.  
  2331. csw [4:55 PM]
  2332. Yep
  2333.  
  2334. [4:55]
  2335. Got it
  2336.  
  2337. [4:55]
  2338. I need to run in a moment.
  2339. Other questions
  2340.  
  2341. iang [4:56 PM]
  2342. Which institutions do you think should emerge?
  2343.  
  2344. [4:56]
  2345. I for one have promoted the idea of Arbitration (complicated I know) … but there are many possibilities. (edited)
  2346.  
  2347.  
  2348. csw [4:56 PM]
  2349. Many, but this is also a market function. Arbitration is a good one as it is possible to contract law.
  2350.  
  2351. wings [4:56 PM]
  2352. joined #general
  2353.  
  2354. tomothy
  2355. [4:57 PM]
  2356. When are you coming back again? :smile:
  2357.  
  2358. csw [4:57 PM]
  2359. That is, you can agree on an arbitrator and make the contract conditional on that role. This then replaces the role of the court and in Rothbardian terms allows for the democratisation of the justice system
  2360.  
  2361. satoshi [4:57 PM]
  2362. Thanks for answering questions Craig. It went surprisingly well I think. Amazing what can be accomplished in the absence of trolling.
  2363.  
  2364. jp [4:58 PM]
  2365. LukeJr missed the debate. I pinned Dr. Wright scale comments here. Expect to see Luke Jr reaponse.
  2366.  
  2367.  
  2368. iang [4:58 PM]
  2369. There’s also the possibility of moving direct voting into the system - create an ability for people holding BTC to vote on a proposal. As the proposal wins some form of majority, it leads the direction on changes.
  2370.  
  2371.  
  2372. craig_s_wright [4:58 PM]
  2373. joined #general
  2374.  
  2375.  
  2376. megalodon
  2377. [4:58 PM]
  2378. lol
  2379.  
  2380. csw [4:58 PM]
  2381. I have a doppelganger it seems :slightly_smiling_face:
  2382.  
  2383.  
  2384. satoshi [4:59 PM]
  2385. So many Craigs, so little time.
  2386.  
  2387. megalodon
  2388. [4:59 PM]
  2389. will the real Craig Wright please stand up
  2390.  
  2391. craig_s_wright [4:59 PM]
  2392. Hi guys
  2393.  
  2394. checksum0 [4:59 PM]
  2395. And cue the trolls...
  2396.  
  2397. freetrader [4:59 PM]
  2398. lesson on identity
  2399.  
  2400. iang [5:00 PM]
  2401. brands are such fun… everyone should have one
  2402.  
  2403. tomothy
  2404. [5:00 PM]
  2405. But seriously, I'm sure there will be some interesting responses to a lot of your comments here today. You've provided a lot of food for thought. If I pester Vlad enough do you think you can make another appearance? :smile:
  2406.  
  2407. csw [5:00 PM]
  2408. Yes.
  2409.  
  2410.  
  2411. [5:00]
  2412. If we keep it civil
  2413.  
  2414. craig_s_wright [5:00 PM]
  2415. congrats on matonis
  2416.  
  2417. jp [5:00 PM]
  2418. Mod here will purge trollers and craig_s_wright
  2419.  
  2420. csw [5:01 PM]
  2421. Thanks Craig :slightly_smiling_face:
  2422.  
  2423.  
  2424. bicmac1973 [5:01 PM]
  2425. hi guys and gals, nice to be here. Let me stress that I am absolutely not craig wright!
  2426.  
  2427. jesse [5:01 PM]
  2428. joined #general
  2429.  
  2430. csw [5:01 PM]
  2431. LOL BicM...
  2432.  
  2433. craig_s_wright [5:01 PM]
  2434. I'm actually a famous craig_s_wright, and I wouldn't mind staying in this chat as craig_s_wright. nowhere do I claim to be the "real" Craig S Wright
  2435.  
  2436. csw [5:02 PM]
  2437. Well, there are a good number of Craig Wrights :slightly_smiling_face:
  2438.  
  2439. daniweav [5:02 PM]
  2440. joined #general
  2441.  
  2442. wings [5:02 PM]
  2443. be serious guys...talk on topic only plz
  2444.  
  2445. craig_s_wright [5:02 PM]
  2446. I'm going to bid 900 BTC on bitstamp right now
  2447.  
  2448. iang [5:02 PM]
  2449. ok … so here’s a rhetorical. What innovations post-2009 from the ideas / literature would have been good to put in, if only?
  2450.  
  2451. daniweav [5:02 PM]
  2452. Hello, newbie here. :baby_bottle:
  2453.  
  2454. [5:02]
  2455. Nice to meet you all. :slightly_smiling_face:
  2456.  
  2457. vlad2vlad [5:03 PM]
  2458. @bitsko time to come back!!!
  2459.  
  2460. csw [5:03 PM]
  2461. Another time Ian.
  2462.  
  2463. iang [5:03 PM]
  2464. k
  2465.  
  2466. tomothy
  2467. [5:03 PM]
  2468. Alright, well thank you for your time today CSW. I'm sure we can waste your time all day. Hope we get to do this again in a bit.
  2469.  
  2470.  
  2471. csw [5:03 PM]
  2472. I do need to go. Sorry.
  2473.  
  2474.  
  2475. joeldalais [5:03 PM]
  2476. i'm off for now, was great chatting, a lot of thanks to csw :+1: have a good one all
  2477.  
  2478. satoshi [5:03 PM]
  2479. Bye Craig. Ignore the trolls and keep working.
  2480.  
  2481. tomothy
  2482. [5:03 PM]
  2483. Thanks again for staying as long as you did. Greatly appreciated you sticking around to address all the additional comments.
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