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conquer987
Mar 25th, 2014
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  1. [09:49:54] <oarfish> Hi, I'm MotK
  2. [09:50:11] <oarfish> I like to make role madness setups
  3. [09:50:30] <oarfish> but I hate it when people try to figure out what I put into the setups, so I'm going to troll them
  4. [09:55:01] <oarfish> Can anyone explain this mindset to me?
  5. [09:55:43] Chaore [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer
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  7. [09:58:10] Edible [[email protected]] has left #motktown: Rejoining because of user@host change
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  9. [09:58:10] Hana [[email protected]] has set mode +o Edible
  10. [10:00:53] <oarfish> I mean really, in a couple of weeks I'm going to run a game which doesn't have any power roles, but it isn't ordinary mountainous either
  11. [10:15:21] Connection to server lost
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  13. [11:11:48] Channel topic is: #MotKTown, where the scum is scummy and the town stopped playing | Also, NFL DISCUSSION HO | http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,14201.0.html archives if you want to binge | <20:30:01> "Conq": i prefer weeaboo speak | ##vote shadoweh's connection
  14. [11:11:48] Topic was set by Edible on Mon Feb 11 21:40:09 2013
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  16. [11:12:03] Channel was created at Mon Jun 17 18:54:26 2013
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  19. [11:34:06] <Conq> [09:50:30] <oarfish> but I hate it when people try to figure out what I put into the setups, so I'm going to troll them
  20. [11:34:11] <Conq> it can be summarized by dormio is a jerk
  21. [11:34:16] <Conq> he wont disagree with this analysis
  22. [11:34:36] <Conq> :V
  23. [11:35:20] <Conq> or that he just really hates rolegaming
  24. [11:45:17] <oarfish> it's not just dormio though, nnr seems to feel the same way
  25. [11:46:03] <oarfish> although Dormio seems to actively put troll roles into his games
  26. [11:48:54] <oarfish> I just wonder how widespread this mindset is, and if it's reasonable for me to find it strange and contradictory
  27. [12:00:22] Helepolis [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Quit:
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  29. [13:01:36] NekoRex [[email protected]] has joined #motktown
  30. [13:12:12] <BunnyDragonJesus> oarfish: i basically draw the line at 'don't fucking ask the mod for exact details to win the game'
  31. [13:12:20] <BunnyDragonJesus> because that is a REALLY shitty practice in MOTK
  32. [13:12:33] <BunnyDragonJesus> that i've dealt with every time I run
  33. [13:15:32] <oarfish> why do you think it's a shitty practice?
  34. [13:18:10] <oarfish> you wouldn't describe asking the GM for clarification in an RPG or a board game or ... i don't know, most any sort of game as shitty would you?
  35. [13:22:25] <BunnyDragonJesus> because giving you the answers is not playing mafia
  36. [13:22:42] <BunnyDragonJesus> and boils it down to who can poopsock the setup instead of who can play the game basically
  37. [13:23:30] <BunnyDragonJesus> like, it's not like just asking for clarification about your role or whatever
  38. [13:23:41] <BunnyDragonJesus> it's asking like 'is this person lying to me so i can say he's scum and lynch him'
  39. [13:24:32] <BunnyDragonJesus> if you ask about your role and how it works, sure go ahead, if you're asking me 'is this person lying about his role' no fuck off
  40. [13:24:47] <BunnyDragonJesus> (this is what was asked in game and was really bad)
  41. [13:25:19] <BunnyDragonJesus> not to mention most of the times the cunning deceit and found tricks that expose the scum
  42. [13:25:27] <BunnyDragonJesus> are basically you guys misinterpreting what the mod is saying
  43. [13:25:41] <BunnyDragonJesus> and then call us bastards etc. when we have to reclarify
  44. [13:25:47] <BunnyDragonJesus> it's pretty mean-spirited to the mods
  45. [13:28:01] <oarfish> Dormio has written that he intentionally put troll logic and super secret information into his setup just to frustrate players who try to understand it
  46. [13:29:57] <oarfish> I just don't understand where he's coming from. Why would you want to have a setup where the players are not allowed to figure it out?
  47. [13:31:24] <BunnyDragonJesus> because MOTK kind of has a problem with seeing a bunch of shiny roles and being distracted by them and dormio doesn't like that
  48. [13:31:43] <BunnyDragonJesus> we've had multiple games where we get shit like day 2 even in setups not designed like this
  49. [13:32:02] <BunnyDragonJesus> and it's not really fun to people, dormio included
  50. [13:32:43] <BunnyDragonJesus> figuring out the setup sounds great except most of the time it's a bunch of yelling and making wild guesses
  51. [13:33:08] <BunnyDragonJesus> and in practice it takes the fun out of the game in favor of trying to break the setup in two
  52. [13:33:45] <BunnyDragonJesus> which if you put a lot of effort into it and making it is kind of disheartening to just see players take several shots at it and try and just break it
  53. [13:33:55] <BunnyDragonJesus> instead of really playing it
  54. [13:34:23] <oarfish> you would make a complex setup with power roles but not want players to know how they interacted?
  55. [13:34:43] <BunnyDragonJesus> it's not that
  56. [13:34:56] <BunnyDragonJesus> it's that they fucking ignore actually doing things to yell about roles instead of playing and doing things
  57. [13:35:09] <oarfish> isn't that part of playing the game?
  58. [13:35:23] <Shadoweh> I think Dormio just wants people to play mafia instead of puzzle blocks
  59. [13:35:27] <BunnyDragonJesus> it's not supposed to be the entire fucking game and it's what it devolves into
  60. [13:35:38] <BunnyDragonJesus> like, mafia isn't roles
  61. [13:35:41] <oarfish> why doesn't dormio run a game without power roles
  62. [13:35:44] <BunnyDragonJesus> it's talking, interacting, scumhunting
  63. [13:35:51] <Shadoweh> becausse mountainous is boring
  64. [13:35:59] <BunnyDragonJesus> because we shouldn't HAVE to not have power roles
  65. [13:36:04] <BunnyDragonJesus> to have people actually play mafia
  66. [13:36:20] <BunnyDragonJesus> and yeah it's sometimes p.boring
  67. [13:36:46] <oarfish> I think this is a weird complaint to be making
  68. [13:38:31] <oarfish> "I made a complex game with cool roles but I want you to find the scum without talking about the cool roles I made"
  69. [13:38:41] <Shadoweh> Roles are suposed to assist dayplay, not replace it. Like you can guess at the setup all you want but it will probably lead you astray if you ignore the player's actions
  70. [13:38:56] <Shadoweh> Talking about cool roles = okay
  71. [13:39:27] <BunnyDragonJesus> what shadoweh said is what i've been trying to communicate
  72. [13:39:29] <Shadoweh> Deciding Dormio is a bastard mod because Sky was VT/That entire Day 2 conversation = not okay
  73. [13:39:38] <BunnyDragonJesus> so listen to her
  74. [13:39:44] <BunnyDragonJesus> she is wise and needs to /in for mafia again
  75. [13:40:10] <Shadoweh> I dunno, I've learned that I can't even lynch scum and be cleared for it, I'm not sure there's any point to me playing mafia
  76. [13:40:23] <oarfish> Dormio made a setup intentionally to troll people, with information that wasn't given to any player, so how is he not a bastard?
  77. [13:40:49] <BunnyDragonJesus> dormio himself being an asshole is a bit different than being a bastard mod
  78. [13:41:49] <Shadoweh> The information wasn't even that hard to figure out
  79. [13:41:54] <BunnyDragonJesus> yeah like
  80. [13:42:01] <BunnyDragonJesus> Shadoweh basically had things figured out immediately
  81. [13:42:04] <Shadoweh> It's kinda funny to me that Sacchi didn't know either
  82. [13:42:12] <Shadoweh> since it was his role >.>
  83. [13:42:25] <BunnyDragonJesus> Sacchi confused me a bit yeah
  84. [13:43:05] <BunnyDragonJesus> tbh the only reason it was 'hard' to get is because no one listened to shadoweh at all
  85. [13:43:08] <Shadoweh> A VT that becomes a Vig on powerup (IE a Good PR) was what I expected
  86. [13:43:17] <BunnyDragonJesus> shadoweh is wise and people need to listen to her more often
  87. [13:44:46] <BunnyDragonJesus> dormio basically never lied is the main thing, and it was not impossible for town to figure out why
  88. [13:45:01] <BunnyDragonJesus> even assuming sacchi hit scum
  89. [13:45:19] <Shadoweh> Dormio was practically confirming Sky Paladin was telling the truth
  90. [13:45:45] <oarfish> it sure did not sound like that to me
  91. [13:46:24] <Shadoweh> I don't think he should have said as much as he did say in thread even, but he was trying really hard to tell you there was a difference between 'Pure' VT and what Sky had
  92. [13:46:37] <Shadoweh> Without actually saying it
  93. [13:46:48] <Shadoweh> You should learn to read between the lines :p
  94. [13:46:59] <oarfish> yes, but Sky's role PM said that he was something which he was not
  95. [13:47:05] <oarfish> Why did Dormio not put the information about the upgrades in anyone's role PM?
  96. [13:47:19] <Shadoweh> Because it would have confirmed the motivator existed?
  97. [13:47:24] <oarfish> So?
  98. [13:47:48] <BunnyDragonJesus> Oarfish: he put information about the upgrades in sacchi's pm!
  99. [13:47:49] <Shadoweh> So the motivator isn't suposed to be confirmed town. Why would he do that?
  100. [13:48:17] <oarfish> You said confirmed existed, is that the same thing as confirmed town?
  101. [13:48:40] <Shadoweh> Look, if your role says VT, and the ruleset says 'everyone has a pr', the conclusion there should not be 'The mod gave me a shitty pm and hates me', it should be 'I am not actually VT'
  102. [13:48:44] <Shadoweh> Yes
  103. [13:49:01] <Shadoweh> Yes it would be confirmed town if everyone knew that a role that gave the town actual PR's existed
  104. [13:49:11] <oarfish> so ... Sky should have assumed that Dormio gave him a lying role PM
  105. [13:49:33] <Shadoweh> He should have assumed that there was something he didn't know about that would change his PM, yes
  106. [13:50:42] <oarfish> The information that Sky's VT changed to one-shot vig: where was this written?
  107. [13:51:02] <Shadoweh> And when people stopped trying to beat the answer out of Dormio and looked at the actual play, it lined up with Sky Paladin actually telling the truth. So lynching him based on a role would have been wrong.
  108. [13:51:27] <Shadoweh> Mod notes. Also the motivator knew he would change people's roles into something else
  109. [13:51:30] <BunnyDragonJesus> (MODS DO NOT EXIST TO TELL YOU EVERY FUCKING THING THAT HAPPENS now i need to head to class)
  110. [13:51:40] <BunnyDragonJesus> (please read that sentence a lot)
  111. [13:52:26] <oarfish> Mods shouldn't hope for players to assume that they lied to them, and then claim to not be bastard.
  112. [13:52:31] <Shadoweh> You don't need to have everything spelled out to you. Even if I hadn't been motivated, I think I would have argued that Sky P could still be a VT. Just not a vehemently
  113. [13:53:02] <Shadoweh> If you're in a rolemadness game as a VT and you don't assume something is going on, I don't know what to say to you :V
  114. [13:55:15] <oarfish> well, I think setups like this cause a lot more grief and irritation than mountainous or otherwise vanilla setups.
  115. [13:55:40] <Shadoweh> That was a pretty easy part of the setup to game in our favor, actually. Setup speccing that the VT was a trueclaim. Setup spec isn't always bad
  116. [13:56:17] <Shadoweh> The only mountainous we've ever had was a hellgame <.<
  117. [13:56:20] <oarfish> so, when it's in your favor, it's ok
  118. [13:56:53] <oarfish> Also, expecting players to do something other than try to play the game with the tools they are given AND ASSUME THAT THE MOD IS NOT LYING TO YOU is ... a pretty shitty assumption?
  119. [13:57:15] <Shadoweh> That's my opinion, not Dormio's. I personally don't mind it.
  120. [13:59:19] <Shadoweh> I don't think it was even that strange a setup for gaming. We had a information role, a protection, some near-vanilla roles, a negative-utility pr to weaken thhe monster ubermench, the only real throw-off was the tracker and that was a fakeclaim
  121. [13:59:37] <Shadoweh> And the VT who became a vig
  122. [14:00:26] <Shadoweh> The mod said "I do not consider a Pure VT to be a PR, and everyone is guarenteed to be a PR." There is no lie there. It means you can expect to not always be VT.
  123. [14:00:39] <oarfish> dormio stated in the graveyard that the rawrzilla was a ruse: Medaka could inherit minuses but not use them
  124. [14:00:44] <Shadoweh> Yeah
  125. [14:01:06] <oarfish> ok, so what if Sky was killed n1?
  126. [14:01:23] <Shadoweh> He actually still had some good combinations like BT + Bard
  127. [14:01:39] <Shadoweh> Then we would all giggle at Sky flipping VT
  128. [14:02:49] <Shadoweh> When the motivator abilities started coming out I think it could be theorized that Sky could have been motivated for something, but if he was dead it wouldn't matter that much to speculate about
  129. [14:05:28] <Shadoweh> If you want to take up Setup-Spec seriously you need to be able to think outside of what you know for sure. There are always going to be roles you can't confirm, because there are living, unflipped players
  130. [14:06:06] <Shadoweh> And it will never be a substitute for actually reading people
  131. [14:07:54] <Shadoweh> (This is why Dan is so bad at it because he tries never to read anyone <.<)
  132. [14:08:11] <oarfish> well, I think running a game should be about creating something fun and interesting and then letting the players work with it, not trying to trick people or force them to play the game in the way you like
  133. [14:11:57] <oarfish> the game I'm going to run is not ordinary, but it has no power roles
  134. [14:31:05] <Shadoweh> I thought it was an interesting setup though. Putting in tricks so its not easy to figure out is part of what makes it fun
  135. [14:32:06] <Shadoweh> how is it not going to be ordinary then, special mechanics?
  136. [14:33:25] <oarfish> one third of the players are scum, and at the end of the game the graveyard votes for one living player to win, with their faction
  137. [14:40:25] <Shadoweh> <_<
  138. [14:40:41] <Shadoweh> When is the game considered ended?
  139. [14:41:27] <oarfish> after the fifth day if there are 15 players
  140. [15:02:03] <Shadoweh> Uhm
  141. [15:02:08] <Shadoweh> So what happens when scum wins before that?
  142. [15:02:39] <oarfish> how?
  143. [15:03:18] <Shadoweh> If there are 10 town and 5 scum, doesn't LYLO happen around Day 3?
  144. [15:04:09] <oarfish> For a fifteen player game there are only 9 deaths and 10 town
  145. [15:05:01] <Shadoweh> Okay, but, generally, scum wins when they control half the votes, so.. you're not having the town lose via endgame?
  146. [15:05:38] <oarfish> no, because in this case the graveyard is still an active zone of play
  147. [15:06:07] <Shadoweh> Well, you are defiinitely right that that wouldn't be an ordinary game
  148. [16:06:09] oarfish [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Quit: Page closed
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