Jai RamToday at 12:00 PM
I think thats tribalism
Both genders get the shit end of the stick in different areas
sunyataToday at 12:00 PM
@Jai Ram hardly are any of other dispositions purely based on facts.
Jai RamToday at 12:00 PM
Im an egalitarian
earthmelly☮Today at 12:00 PM
i would say women get it moreso in general but men do as well
5% of fortune 500 ceos are women, less than a quarter of congress is women, that doesnt seem very balanced to me haha
sunyataToday at 12:01 PM
I think there are physiological, biological, etc variables which contribute to our seeing based on facts and our expectations, sometimes our expectations becoming too dominant and thus we start stereotyping accoridng to facts what the future might be.
Jai RamToday at 12:02 PM
Men have the highest rates of suicide, homelessnes, violent crime victimhood, work related death, custody loss, ect
I think its pretty even
sunyataToday at 12:02 PM
Doesn't Peterson say that egalitarianism leads to the greatest differentiation in gender personality?
Jai RamToday at 12:02 PM
Then theres the draft that used to exist
Idk i dont follow him
sunyataToday at 12:03 PM
Well he does, and he simply is the middle man for the facts.
BusyHippieToday at 12:03 PM
Being a feminist doesn't mean you discount what men have to go thru and their struggles. There are some radical women on social media that hate men's privilege and therefore hate men. But they aren't the majority of the movement
daiyToday at 12:03 PM
^
sunyataToday at 12:03 PM
And I mean egalitarian communities specifically.
Jai RamToday at 12:04 PM
I just think a lot of femenism is saying how bad women have it, which i think youre selectively ignoring the opposite end of the spectrum in a lot of indivisual cases
sunyataToday at 12:04 PM
How bad do humans have it? I think this should be the central question of humanity.
earthmelly☮Today at 12:04 PM
Women have the highest rate of mental illness, sexual assault, low representation in governments,low  representation in executive leadership across all industries, I think women actually have more suicidal ideation? but men use more violent means so its more often successful
sunyataToday at 12:04 PM
Instead of attributing problems to group identities..
earthmelly☮Today at 12:04 PM
And worldwide, i would say women do have it worse
sunyataToday at 12:04 PM
But rather acknowledging the human condition.
Jai RamToday at 12:05 PM
Worldwide i agree
EmberToday at 12:05 PM
i wanna contribute here but im gunna make it too personal so im conflicted lol
earthmelly☮Today at 12:06 PM
Idk identity politics seems to be a bit of a myth imo. There can be social justice for all disadvantaged groups.
BusyHippieToday at 12:06 PM
Please don't gatekeep suffering. People are people, every demographic suffers. It's not a competition of who suffers more and therefore should be the only group to receive help. Everyone, no matter their gender or race, deserves compassion and help.
earthmelly☮Today at 12:06 PM
for sure
Jai RamToday at 12:06 PM
But also men are emotionally stunted and when we cry were told "man up", most men have the emotional advancement and vocabulary of a 7 year old, which is a death sentence if youre faced with ptsd or depression
sunyataToday at 12:06 PM
It's definitely a thing, and demonstrably so haha, but yes we can have social justice advocates for each group, such that the group actually receives equal treatment. @earthmelly☮
daiyToday at 12:06 PM
they're different issues
Jai RamToday at 12:07 PM
Yeah thats what ive been saying
daiyToday at 12:07 PM
men in modern society have issues too, mental health being a big one yeah. that has nothing to do with feminism or women's struggles, and i wish everyone would stop trying to conflate them
EmberToday at 12:07 PM
i dont think there is a first world country in the world where a woman could go to mental health professionals and say "help me I have had multiple suicide attempts in recent months" and they wouldnt get immediate attention but a year ago i think i would have said the same about men
earthmelly☮Today at 12:08 PM
That is so untrue Ember. :/
sunyataToday at 12:09 PM
based on appearances, you'll definitely see different social interactions and systems play out, and to track all of them down is very difficult, and to prematurely judge the situation and take a stance is very easy...
So... lots of identity politics when motivations are impure, and colored by irrationality and emotion and desire for power.
earthmelly☮Today at 12:09 PM
Women are denied both physical and mental healthcare at disgustingly huge percentages. We're often told that we don't know what we're saying about our own bodies or mental health. Like that one study about pain perception, doctors treat men in physical pain much more readily than women in physical pain.
Mental healthcare in general is hugely stunted
EmberToday at 12:10 PM
yeah im for sure bias in this case maybe i just dont want to believe women get this treatment either
Jai RamToday at 12:10 PM
Not that i dont believe you but i would like to read about that, do you have a source? @earthmelly☮
BusyHippieToday at 12:11 PM
If they went to a mental health professional I don't agree. They are obligated to help, both professionally and legally.  In my eyes, the problem is that men don't seek out help. It's perceived as weak, so they don't even go to the mental health professionals. They tell their drinking buddy and the drinking buddy says "man up, shit sucks for everyone".
earthmelly☮Today at 12:11 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/03/well/live/when-doctors-downplay-womens-health-concerns.html

Jai RamToday at 12:30 PM
how do you know that's not because minorities are more likely to live in impoverished communities/
impoverished communities have a lot more crime
therefore minorities are more likely to be involved
BusyHippieToday at 12:30 PM
Oh man I see micro racism every day. The woman who touches their purse as they pass by a black kid, someone describing people of color as thugs, etc
earthmelly☮Today at 12:31 PM
Have you ever considered the elements that keep black people in poverty?
Jai RamToday at 12:31 PM
Yes, I never said there werent
daiyToday at 12:31 PM
as in "let's go beat on some slurs for fun!" racism (and systemic in ethnic-sounding names not having their resumes considered as easily as others)
Jai RamToday at 12:31 PM
but I think that's more about the fact that its a vicious cycle and the fact that the wealthy dont want the poor to get less poor
I think thats just more tribalism
earthmelly☮Today at 12:31 PM
Even if you were accounting for income, it still does not explain how police are much more likely to incarcerate black people for instance
incarceration is one example of something that perpetuates a vicious cycle
Jai RamToday at 12:32 PM
Yes it does, it's because crime is more likely in a ghetto
BusyHippieToday at 12:32 PM
A white person caught with weed, you get a fine. A black person caught with weed, jail time.
earthmelly☮Today at 12:32 PM
Even accounting for poverty though is what i'm saying
Jai RamToday at 12:32 PM
I think maybe that's a valid point
earthmelly☮Today at 12:32 PM
poor black people get incarcerated much more often than poor white people
Jai RamToday at 12:32 PM
Police are more likely to abuse power
and abusers of power are more likely to be tribalistic
earthmelly☮Today at 12:32 PM
black people are much less likely to be hired and promoted
daiyToday at 12:33 PM
racism is just a form of tribalism, i don't see what your point was in trying to make a distinction?
Jai RamToday at 12:33 PM
But I have definitely been fucked over by police many many times and I'm white, they didn't let me off easy
earthmelly☮Today at 12:33 PM
Okay?
daiyToday at 12:33 PM
wait sorry i see what you're getting at
classism vs racism
Jai RamToday at 12:33 PM
Exactly
I think the problem isn't necessarily the entire system but just police
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/
daiyToday at 12:35 PM
i see racism largely as a tool in t he class struggle, to divide the lower classes.
earthmelly☮Today at 12:35 PM
You think only police are responsible for the widespread disparity in income, representation, and industry distribution of black people?
Jai RamToday at 12:35 PM
I think it's a complicated system that can't just be broken down to racism
I mean situation
god I cant type
earthmelly☮Today at 12:36 PM
There truly is widespread racism, and its up to each of us to fight it. Even with a subtle preference for one race over the other in hiring or making a promotion, it all adds up. It perpetuates the issue.
Jai RamToday at 12:36 PM
I think a lot of it is an effect of racism that no longer exists
earthmelly☮Today at 12:36 PM
It definitely is a complicated system, but racism is definitely a major component.
Jai RamToday at 12:36 PM
Like colonization and slavery caused impoverished communities to have a lot of black people but also immigrants have to start out somewhere
earthmelly☮Today at 12:37 PM
If all black people suddenly became white, I gaurantee those black people would recognize privilege in their day to day lives.
You see it with trans people transitioning, they see more privilege as one gender in general. Or gay people being out of the closet versus closeted
Jai RamToday at 12:37 PM
So it's partially old racism but partially just the fact that we allow people into our country who are in more fucked up situations and they dont have money to start with
And it's partially because when they get here, it's hard to get out
earthmelly☮Today at 12:37 PM
And modern racism
Jai RamToday at 12:38 PM
And it's partially because the poor are more likely to have kids which contributes to the overpopulation of impoverished communities
earthmelly☮Today at 12:38 PM
Fox News loves to go on about "obama was president, there isnt racism now." but there still is so much of it
Jai RamToday at 12:38 PM
And it's partially because the rich are money hoarders to the point of mental illness
and it's partially because of the culture of a ghetto basically encouraging violence
daiyToday at 12:39 PM
lul and fox news viewers loved to go on about how michelle was an "ape in a dress" or whatever -_-
Jai RamToday at 12:39 PM
it's a lot of different issues and it can't just be boiled down to racism
BusyHippieToday at 12:39 PM
But then say they aren't racist
earthmelly☮Today at 12:39 PM
Okay, thats another issue. But denying that there is widespread racism is simply inaccurate. I really only ever see white people making those claims.
Jai RamToday at 12:39 PM
I'm not saying there isn't widespread racism
earthmelly☮Today at 12:39 PM
Probably because they can afford to and don't experience the racism in their lives directly affectin gthem
Jai RamToday at 12:40 PM
I just don't think EVERY single person who isn't white is privileged, it really depends on where you are and what your monetary situation looks like and when your ancestors got here and the luck of who exactly you happen to run into and the culture you grew up in
among many other things
like what about asians who have better grades? you can't say that teachers discriminate against other races
education is another huge point
earthmelly☮Today at 12:41 PM
If someone is a rich white woman, they still experience sexism in society no matter the fact that they are upper class.
Jai RamToday at 12:42 PM
Maybe
daiyToday at 12:42 PM
east asians are seen as 'higher tier' or whatever than other races (but below whites) , among many racists
Jai RamToday at 12:42 PM
Depends
That's a really broad statement "every single rich white woman is gauranteed to experience sexism no matter where they grew up"
broad statements like that are bound to not fit everyone
I know women who say they don't experience sexism
earthmelly☮Today at 12:44 PM
If they go out on the street, they're going to experience gender based harassment at a much higher percentage than a rich white male
Lol.
Just because someone experiences less sexism than other doesn't mean they dont experience it. Someone may not even recognize when they are experiencing sexism because they have already decided that they aren't experiencing it. Sexism and racism can occur in much more subtle ways than many people even imagine. And those subtle effects have a major influence on socieyt.
daiyToday at 12:45 PM
well said
Jai RamToday at 12:45 PM
Yeah probably, but that might be because of the dynamic between men and women. Ask any man and they probably wouldn't mind to have a woman catcall them because men have a physical need for love which is a lot less likely to be met. Men are in a position in society where we have to approach the woman, and if we don't, we probably don't get to be with someone.
earthmelly☮Today at 12:46 PM
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
BusyHippieToday at 12:46 PM
That's a really broad statement, "every man wouldn't mind to have a woman catcall them" :yum:
earthmelly☮Today at 12:46 PM
I'm sorry, I have a male friend who has been raped by a woman, I know black men who have been objectified by woman. I gaurantee if I asked them if they are okay with being catcalled they would be disgusted
Jai RamToday at 12:47 PM
I said "probably" for a reason
daiyToday at 12:47 PM
women tend to be a lot less physically imposing than men
earthmelly☮Today at 12:47 PM
Yup
statistically a man isn't goign to be nearly as scared of being raped or attacked
Jai RamToday at 12:47 PM
Actually men are a LOT more likely to be a victim of a violent attack
earthmelly☮Today at 12:47 PM
A gender-based sexual assalut?
Because of being rejected?
I call bs
EmberToday at 12:47 PM
i think i would freeze if a woman raped me because i know regardless of what happens, after this event, in a he said she said im going to prison
earthmelly☮Today at 12:48 PM
Good lord, aight i'm out
Jai RamToday at 12:48 PM
I don't think random people are attacking women just because they're women
sorry
BusyHippieToday at 12:48 PM
.....really dude?
Jai RamToday at 12:48 PM
really
earthmelly☮Today at 12:48 PM
Have you ever been stalked for blocks because you ignored a catcall?
daiyToday at 12:48 PM
more likely to be a victim of a violent attack in general? i can see that. that has nothing to do with catcalling or what i was saying though, if it was directed at me. by physically imposing i just meant having a larger stature than the person they are catcalling, which can be intimidating
earthmelly☮Today at 12:49 PM
Its fuckign terrifying and pretending it isnt a thing women experience is delusional
Jai RamToday at 12:49 PM
I've never even cuddled with a girl.
I wish i got catcalled.
earthmelly☮Today at 12:49 PM
That may explain a lot of your sexist views
Jai RamToday at 12:49 PM
I'm not sexist.
BusyHippieToday at 12:50 PM
Both of my wives have been sexually harassed by strangers. One guy followed her home. It traumatized her. I don't wish that on anyone.
Jai RamToday at 12:50 PM
I dont either
earthmelly☮Today at 12:51 PM
Just feels like its turning into r/MGTOW or r/theredpill in here.
EmberToday at 12:51 PM
it feels like everyone has their own opinion and we forget thats all it is, keep it yellow mellow :ok_hand:
Jai RamToday at 12:51 PM
Well it isn't. I'm literally saying both genders get the shit end of the stick.
seems like you're saying we don't.
earthmelly☮Today at 12:52 PM
Alright when you get catcalled and stalked for ignoring it, let me know
Jai RamToday at 12:52 PM
When you get robbed and murdered let me know
EmberToday at 12:52 PM
Did u just ask to be haunted
daiyToday at 12:53 PM
i think every girl/woman i've ever been close enough with to talk about the subject with, has been --if not assaulted -- at least harassed at least a few times
many assaulted too
but idk what the point of this convo even is
BusyHippieToday at 12:53 PM
Feels like we are going in circles at this point
earthmelly☮Today at 12:54 PM
Yup, womens' experiences aren't real apparently, no use in saying any more.
Jai RamToday at 12:54 PM
I never made excuses for the fact that sexual assault happens
And I never said it didn't happen
earthmelly☮Today at 12:54 PM
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/428786269661822978/568479488715915269/unknown.png

Jai RamToday at 12:54 PM
yeah I stand by that. That's not attacking someone just for being a woman, that's attacking someone because you want to have sex with them. two different things
earthmelly☮Today at 12:55 PM
Thats gender-based as fuck are you kidding?
And its rarely about sex, its often about power and dominance
fragile egoes
princess🌷Today at 12:56 PM
sigh
Jai RamToday at 12:56 PM
It's the difference between "I'm attacking this woman because she has a vagina" and "I'm attacking this woman so that I can do what I want with her  vagina"
Two entirely different motivations
one of them probably almost never happens, the other one happens all the time and I wish it didn't
So please don't strawman me, I'm not a sexual assault apologist.
earthmelly☮Today at 12:58 PM
Look dude, you're not promoting an environment of love and safety. This conversation is over.
Jai RamToday at 12:59 PM
I thought we were having a mutual discussion for the sake of exploring each other's ideas but whatever. I'm not here to argue, I'm just defending my position.
earthmelly☮Today at 12:59 PM
Go look at all the shootings perpetrated by incels for women being women, pretending women arent attacked for being women is just lying about actual peoples' experiences.
Jai RamToday at 1:00 PM
You can't say "this conversation is over" and then say another talking point, that's just not fair.
earthmelly☮Today at 1:00 PM
Okay, i'm out then. Bye
Jai RamToday at 1:00 PM
Either we're having a discussion or not