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  1. [22:04] Naz al-Ghul: Do you have the full soundcloud, hypr
  2. [22:05] Hyprviper1: do i have the full sound cloud @Naz al-Ghul that is funny :stuck_out_tongue:
  3. [22:05] Hyprviper1: lol
  4. [22:06] Hyprviper1: doesnt mean i am going to release it though :stuck_out_tongue:
  5. [22:06] Naz al-Ghul: And GigX of a Thousand Faces will continue to make accounts so long as Serbia's internet infrastructure holds
  6. [22:06] Hyprviper1: hehe yeah
  7. [22:06] MagicSAT: yea u really cant stop em
  8. [22:06] Naz al-Ghul: Are you saying he can't be
  9. [22:06] Naz al-Ghul: held
  10. [22:06] Naz al-Ghul: account
  11. [22:06] Naz al-Ghul: able?
  12. [22:06] Hyprviper1: so people give him roles and let him take out fleets
  13. [22:06] MagicSAT: na
  14. [22:06] Hyprviper1: that means they have preknowledge of what he is doing
  15. [22:06] MagicSAT: ban a account make another ban a account make another
  16. [22:07] Hyprviper1: yeah hence ban the people that keep on letting him into co2 and give him roles
  17. [22:07] Maccloud: corporate whack-a-mole
  18. [22:07] Hyprviper1: punish the corps
  19. [22:07] Hyprviper1: punsih the alliance
  20. [22:07] MagicSAT: this witch hunt fuels his popularity
  21. [22:07] Arabella Meyer: Tbf I don't want to see his ban upheld. But hey. Unpopular opinion. Won't push it
  22. [22:08] Hyprviper1: hence you gie the warning that you will disband the alliance if they get caught doign it again
  23. [22:08] MagicSAT: others have commited worse sins and are still playing same rule for everyone
  24. [22:08] Hyprviper1: im sure that will do something
  25. [22:08] Arrendis: @Hyprviper1 was
  26. It is obvious that the remaining leadership in CCP is knowingly letting him in and run fleets till he gets caught.
  27.  
  28.  
  29. Supposed to be 'the remaining leadership in CO2'?
  30. [22:08] Hodd lol: I would have sympathy for those opinions if he didn't circumvent it while giving CCP the middle finger instead of actually pleading his case
  31. [22:08] MagicSAT: yea lol he seems to be loving the witch hunt
  32. [22:08] Naz al-Ghul: Fits his persecution complex
  33. [22:09] Maccloud: question is @MagicSAT is it fair to enforce new rules retroactively?
  34. [22:09] MagicSAT: exactly
  35. [22:09] MagicSAT: maccloud
  36. [22:09] MagicSAT: different opinions..
  37. [22:09] MagicSAT: should this new policy be retroactive
  38. [22:09] Arrendis: It's not a new rule, though, it's just a clarification of CCP's existing rules. And even if it were a new rule, it's not newer than his latest ban.
  39. [22:09] Naz al-Ghul: Are we going to go full "BUT THE MITTANI IN THE WIZARD HAT AT FANFEST"
  40. [22:09] Maccloud: imho retroactive enforcement is bad
  41. [22:10] MagicSAT: no statue of limitation
  42. [22:10] Arrendis: Except Mittens didn't try to avoid his ban.
  43. [22:10] MagicSAT: to be fair that was pretty bad
  44. [22:10] Maccloud: well thats always the case thats wheeled out as omg but look at him!"(edited)
  45. [22:11] Arrendis: right. Look at him. CCP handed down a judgment and he followed it
  46. [22:11] Arrendis: CCP changing their mind later is on CCP.
  47. [22:11] Naz al-Ghul: GigX's choice to behave petulantly is on GigX
  48. [22:11] Arrendis: exactly.
  49. [22:12] Arrendis: if CCP said 'ok, we've decided to let him back in', then hey, that's their call, they can do that.
  50. [22:12] MagicSAT: so if he apologizes publicy to ccp and sticky fingers ( the judge ) will he get a 2nd chance?
  51. [22:12] Naz al-Ghul: Probably not after evading his bans, no
  52. [22:12] Arrendis: I think his chances have been vastly reduced by repeatedly acting to circumvent CCP's prior decisions.
  53. [22:13] Maccloud: ^^^
  54. [22:13] Arrendis: he'd have stood a much better chance at leniency if he hadn't decided to openly shit on CCP's policies.
  55. [22:13] Vandralys: I just find it hilarious people always tailor their own narrative. Depending on which side you're on either retroactive enforcement is bad or "look what he did" and people's opinions change when their side changes. No conviction.
  56. [22:13] MagicSAT: the only thing that i can say should be retroactive.. is the conduct and past history of a CSM candidate
  57. [22:13] Naz al-Ghul: GigX must accept the consequences of his actions for once. But not every person can have the same maturity and integrity as the Mittani.
  58. [22:13] Arrendis: Mine isn't changing at all. Retroactive enforcement is bad. Enforcing the rules that existed at the time is fine.
  59. [22:14] MagicSAT: mittani and maturity in the same sentence(edited)
  60. [22:14] MagicSAT:
  61.  
  62. [22:14] MagicSAT: the suspence
  63. [22:14] MagicSAT: lol
  64. [22:15] MagicSAT: spit it out mccloud i see u typing
  65. [22:15] Maccloud: well see it this way: if ccp said theyre changing the breadth of explicit content in the game saying any swear word is now punishable by a 7 day ban on the 1`st instance and then 30 day ban on the second and then perma ban on the 3rd.. and then retroactely applied it to everyone playing today. no one would be playing eve cause we've all broken that kind of rule
  66. [22:16] MagicSAT: true
  67. [22:16] Maccloud: itd be crazy but thats why retroactively enforcing new rules is crazy
  68. [22:16] MagicSAT: but certain words and categories should be retro
  69. [22:16] MagicSAT: like racism
  70. [22:16] MagicSAT: personal attacks on players
  71. [22:16] Arrendis: no. retroactive enforcement is bad.
  72. [22:16] Maccloud: see i see racism as something implied.. i can be racist without saying a single 'racist' word
  73. [22:16] Arrendis: if something is allowed now, you can't punish someone for it five years from now.
  74. [22:16] Naz al-Ghul: Retroactive enforcement is bad. What you do is you declare your affirmation of values and rules and you tell them that's what they need to follow henceforth.
  75. [22:16] Vandralys: @Arrendis and I betcha a large majority of co2 had the same opinion when they were in the cfc. Let me ask you this; how is retroactive enforcement any different from retroactive leniency(?)
  76. [22:17] Maccloud: so the word and the meaning behind it are 2 different things
  77. [22:17] MagicSAT: true maccloud but those that do use those certain words should be held accountable
  78. [22:17] Vandralys: I think the issue is that it wasn't allowed at any point
  79. [22:17] MagicSAT: a csm candidate for instance should be held accountable for his past history as a eve player
  80. [22:17] Arrendis: if it wasn't allowed at any point, then it's not retroactive enforcement, it's just justice taking time to be enforced.
  81. [22:18] Maccloud: that means you do not believe that someone can grow and mature as a person though
  82. [22:18] Naz al-Ghul: A CSM candidate is different than a change in the EULA or a change in server rules.
  83. [22:18] Arrendis: retroactive enforcement is changing the rules and then going back to prosecute things that weren't illegal at the time.
  84. [22:18] Maccloud: we've all been somewhat edgy kids in the past, said shit we didnt mean or in a way we didnt mean but we learn and grow
  85. [22:19] Arrendis: As for leniency... Leniency is different because while mercy might offend people, clemency in fundamentally benevolent.
  86. [22:19] Maccloud: the skill is being able to ascertain if someone actually has become more mature or if theyre just hiding it(edited)
  87. [22:19] MagicSAT: which is easy to do on internet
  88. [22:19] Vandralys: Victims of crimes that go unpunished might disagree with you
  89. [22:19] Naz al-Ghul: Crimes indicate that it was illegal while they did it.
  90. [22:20] Arrendis: They might. But that's why victims don't get to decide on sentencing.
  91. [22:20] Arrendis: They can seek to influence the sentencing, but the final decision isn't theirs.
  92. [22:20] Arabella Meyer: Didn't the EULA/TOS changes outlining RL threats come out in 2018 though? :thinking:
  93. [22:20] Arabella Meyer: Playing devil's advocate here
  94. [22:21] Arrendis: it was a clarification of the standards CCP was already applying.
  95. [22:21] Arrendis: at least, that's their claim about it.
  96. [22:22] Arrendis: obviously, I cannot speak with authority about the standards they were actually applying.
  97. [22:22] Maccloud: sometime the language uused in some rules are deliberately vague because it helps CCP in situations where they can either hold someone accountable or avoid accountability legally IRL, its just a fact of modern business practises
  98. [22:22] Arabella Meyer: That's why I think talking about retroactive stuff is pointless
  99. [22:23] Arrendis: Sure, but right now the issue isn't one of retroactive stuff. It's a current thing: ban evasion.
  100. [22:23] Arabella Meyer: True
  101. [22:23] Maccloud: well i dont mind talking about the perils of retroactive accountability if it shows people the massive flaws in it
  102. [22:24] Arabella Meyer: Is there any scenario in which evading a ban is warranted?
  103. [22:24] Arabella Meyer: I doubt it
  104. [22:24] Naz al-Ghul: And GigX is guilty of evading his bans and rubbing it in the face of CCP Games. So I'm going to place my bets against him coming back to EVE by their allowance.
  105. [22:24] Maccloud: ummm identity fraud maybe?
  106. [22:24] Naz al-Ghul: Nor does he deserve to return.
  107. [22:24] Arabella Meyer: What other people have received permanent player bans?
  108. [22:25] Arrendis: I cannot think of a situation where someone is justified in attempting to access CCP's servers and data without CCP's permission, especially after an active revocation of a player's license to access CCP's property.
  109. [22:25] Naz al-Ghul: That Evocationz dude recently
  110. [22:25] Elange: Somer
  111. [22:25] Maccloud: didnt ironbank get one cause of continued breaches of TOS for API usages?
  112. [22:25] Arrendis: In a case of identity theft/fraud, the justifiable action is attempting to prove that the offender wasn't you.
  113. [22:26] Arrendis: and then attempting to get CCP to restore your access.
  114. [22:26] Maccloud: i know it was some really technical one rather than the alleged RMT people keep on talking about
  115. [22:26] Arabella Meyer: Ironbank still plays and streams. Problem?(edited)
  116. [22:26] Maccloud: well i know he's started streaming again n stuff
  117. [22:26] Elange: Lesser known people who have doxxed and threatened other players.
  118. [22:26] Maccloud: but i was sure 1 of the IWI bankers got a perma
  119. [22:27] Maccloud: maybe lenny?
  120. [22:27] Arabella Meyer: Probably lenny
  121. [22:27] Elange: Kugu
  122. [22:27] Elange: Er maybe not I hear kugu still plays
  123. [22:28] Arabella Meyer: The interesting thing is I think the only reason gigx is followed about for it is because of his high profile and status. No one would care if one of these lesser known players with permabans evaded it (and they probably have)
  124. [22:28] Naz al-Ghul: I must ask you all though. Can anyone really justify GigX being allowed to return to EVE?
  125. [22:29] Arabella Meyer: Relisten to the TIS episode on it. Very good reasons in there
  126. [22:29] Maccloud: ohh its totally about him being a VIP in the eyes of co2 members
  127. [22:30] Naz al-Ghul: Some people go, "He brings content" which is a rather poor reason to excuse real life threats.
  128. [22:30] Vandralys: Lol that sounds like another case
  129. [22:30] Maccloud: i cant, i could if it was his first and he really worked on changing himself to not be as obviously vengefull and allowing his emotions to break the barrier of ingame and IRL
  130. [22:31] Vandralys: Oh is he still throwing threats around? I haven't heard peep from mrs gigx
  131. [22:31] Maccloud: but he's a repeat offender and continues to try work around ccp moderating him out the game which shows not someone that wants to redeem himself but someone who doesnt care about authority
  132. [22:32] Maccloud: he's done similar stuff to others before the whole judgement day thing so ive heard
  133. [22:32] Arrendis: Considering the consistent pattern of behavior re: threats and ban evasions, no. He's not at all inclined to believe he needs to be answerable to anyone, including CCP, and he doesn't demonstrate any understanding that other people aren't there just to provide him with entertainment.
  134. [22:32] Maccloud: and been warned about it by ccp
  135. [22:32] Naz al-Ghul: Clearly, by listening to that Soundcloud clip, GigX has learned nothing. He has taken on a persecution complex. Every failing or setback is someone else's fault. His leaving the Imperium was the Imperium's fault, his breakaway from Legacy was their fault, his ban is clearly CCP's fault and they're gunning for him personally.
  136. [22:33] Arrendis: Again, if he'd demonstrated remorse early on and not attempted to circumvent his punishment, I think there'd be a far stronger case for clemency.
  137. [22:33] Vandralys: Eh I haven't heard the Soundcloud clip but the only people gunning for him personally are the imperium
  138. [22:34] Naz al-Ghul: Ours is a professional distaste, and it has to do with CO2 as a whole.
  139. [22:34] Vandralys: Really? Reeeeaaaallly?
  140. [22:34] Naz al-Ghul: Unless you're saying we're responsible for his current predicament?
  141. [22:34] Vandralys: How's that koolaid?
  142. [22:35] Vandralys: No. not saying the imperium are responsible for it. That was his own actions. Doesn't change the fact that they're gunning for him
  143. [22:35] Naz al-Ghul: We're not gunning for him. Where did we say we are gunning for GigX himself?
  144. [22:35] Arrendis: My objections to GigX are based on principle. I'm not 'gunning' for him, but I don't see any basis to ignore additional infractions.
  145. [22:35] Naz al-Ghul: We're gunning for CO2 as a whole.
  146. [22:36] Dirk_Stetille: Yeah
  147. [22:36] Arrendis: and to the extent that we're 'gunning' for CO2, we're doing it in-game.
  148. [22:36] Maccloud: honestly my angle on gigx has absolutely nothing to do with imperium or anything like that. it comes from a simple question:
  149. Do i want to play a game where if i was a bit of a dick to someone but totally in the rules of the game, that they could come after me IRL and not be penalised for it?
  150. [22:36] Naz al-Ghul: In real life, we keep our hands to ourselves, and don't threaten to take others' away.
  151. [22:36] Dirk_Stetille: We don't give a shit if it's GigX, if it's DaWinci, or even if their old banker Mmarlon comes out of the woodwork to support them
  152. [22:36] Maccloud: my answer... fuck no.
  153. [22:36] Arrendis: we're not attempting to cause CO2 problems IRL.. We're not taking actions against any of them on a person level outside of eVE.
  154. [22:37] Vandralys: Which cannot exist without gigx. So what's the easiest way to take co2 out?
  155. [22:37] Dirk_Stetille: The CO2 of old was a group that stabbed people in the back without good reason, and we will pursue them
  156. [22:37] Naz al-Ghul: CO2 can exist without GigX.
  157. [22:37] Naz al-Ghul: It only needs to learn how.
  158. [22:37] Dirk_Stetille: CO2 doesn't WANT to exist without GigX
  159. [22:37] Arrendis: CO2's in-game structural points of failure are neither our fault, nor our concern.
  160. [22:37] Maccloud: yah the whole cannot live without gigx is a fallacy gigx created
  161. [22:37] Dirk_Stetille: He built a lovely cult of personality there
  162. [22:38] Maccloud: its like saying omg i cannot live without my 1st girlfriend.. until u dont have a girlfriend and you're pretty upset about it for a while, and then realise, life goes on.(edited)
  163. [22:38] Naz al-Ghul: Would like to inquire further Van, how are we in the Imperium gunning for GigX specifically?
  164. [22:38] Arrendis: and honestly, the insistence that a prinicpled objection to people violating the social norms and restrictions on acceptable behavior is 'drinking the kool-aid' because it's Goons is pretty damned offensive.
  165. [22:39] Adama Kanjus: i left co2 when gigx said i couldn't jump my mach out of co2 space. :joy:
  166. [22:39] Naz al-Ghul: As the Supreme Inquisitor, I'd like to know. I generally don't miss too many details.
  167. [22:40] Vandralys: But then it's not co2. If it had a complete cultural shift to allow someone else to take over would the imperium still be gunning for co2 as an entity?
  168. [22:40] Dirk_Stetille: No
  169. [22:40] Dirk_Stetille: And we have accepted such cultural shifts before
  170. [22:40] Dirk_Stetille: Take BOVRIL, for example
  171. [22:40] Arrendis: Impossible to say. What actions would that someone else take? How would the New CO2 behave?
  172. [22:40] Arrendis: We certainly wouldn't treat them like they were the same people in charge.
  173. [22:41] Maccloud: tbf i was thinking when reading this " why does it have to be Naz and arrendis making these points" :cry: its just going to be labeled goon propaganda
  174. [22:41] Maccloud: when its actually some pretty solid points
  175. [22:41] Naz al-Ghul: I sincerely doubt GigX, if he ever did swallow his pride and let someone else hold the reins, would allow a successor to take over who didn't bear the same grudges.
  176. [22:41] Dirk_Stetille: Their prior leadership was pretty fucking cancerous, but then they attempted to apply to GSF, and we looked into what had happened and their history, and we established that the entire leadership structure has changed in the past couple of years
  177. [22:41] Arrendis: I don't do propaganda.
  178. 😂
  179. 1
  180. [22:41] Dirk_Stetille: We let them in, and they're productive members of the Imperium now
  181. [22:42] Bardghost Isu: I think arrendis is spot on there, If by cultural change it was fully change and also how they act then sure.
  182. But if it were simply a change of the guard, From GIGX to someone who follows in his footsteps, Then i doubt that would be accepted(edited)
  183. [22:42] Arrendis: People just don't like that I don't let them get away with shit.
  184. [22:42] Vandralys: Exactly. So to say the imperium is gunning for co2 but if gigx wasn't in charge they wouldn't be. Doesn't that infer it's actually gigx they want to remove (for many if not arguably all depending on standpoint valid reasons)
  185. [22:42] Naz al-Ghul: Let no one say here that I am a propagandist, I am merely speaking about politics. My role in the Imperium only bolsters my points.
  186. [22:42] Naz al-Ghul: I have never once made something that was more propaganda than fact.
  187. [22:42] Arrendis: No. We are not personally 'gunning for' GigX. We are, in-game, opposing those individuals and their followers who have made themselves our enemies.
  188. [22:43] Bardghost Isu: to say the imperium is gunning for co2 but if gigx wasn't in charge they wouldn't be.
  189.  
  190. GIGX Not being In charge =/= To a Full Cultural Change in CO2
  191. [22:43] Naz al-Ghul: Again, what would make you think CO2 would change drastically with a successor?
  192. [22:43] Bardghost Isu: And we would want the second one in that
  193. [22:43] Arrendis: out of game, I, personally, am choosing not to absolve someone of offenses he is attempting to avoid punishment for, and committing new offenses in the process.
  194. [22:43] Naz al-Ghul: Why is GigX so special that he is the culture of CO2?
  195. [22:43] Vandralys: Hmm you can say that but co2 is not dissimilar to a cult
  196. [22:44] Arrendis: we, the imperium, aren't doing shit re: GigX.
  197. [22:44] Maccloud: tbf a streamer i saw did actually describe Eve Online as a cult.. not a game, a cult(edited)
  198. [22:44] Arrendis: There's been no official statement from 'The Imperium'. There's been no grievance filed anywhere, no big hurf from Mittens, nothing. Individual people are making statements about what they believe.
  199. 👍
  200. 3
  201. [22:44] Naz al-Ghul: The tramp of doom echoes in GigX's own footsteps. He brings his ills upon himself.
  202. [22:45] Maccloud: i think he described it thus: "u dont play eve online, u join an organisation in eve online"
  203. [22:45] Dirk_Stetille: Actually, Arrendis, that's not strictly true
  204. [22:45] Arrendis: And if you want to just lump a number of varied individuals who don't agree on a whole lot, quite often, into one group identity to dismiss them, then I have to ask who it is that's supposed to be drinking the proverbial kool-aid.
  205. [22:45] Dirk_Stetille: The Imperium did make a statement when CO2 tried to backstab us during the Casino War
  206. [22:46] Arrendis: Yes, there was a statement about CO2's flip two years ago.
  207. [22:46] Arrendis: That's not anything personal against GigX in the current context.
  208. [22:46] Dirk_Stetille: By way of Sion (who was head of CD) and his document discussing why CO2's leadership are traitorous
  209. [22:46] Arrendis: That addresses in-game behavior and in-game grievances. That's all.
  210. [22:47] Maccloud: not out of game threats
  211. [22:47] Bardghost Isu: Or the ban evasion
  212. [22:47] Dirk_Stetille: Which is exactly why I can say that should CO2 have a huge cultural shift, we will re-assess, but not while any of the leadership mentioned in that document have any influence there
  213. [22:47] Jangle UK: Would that be the flip after Bees gave no meaningful supportv o defend the north but expected Co2 to suck up being their meat shield. Ahh yeah, that would be the one. I wobder why Co2 left then? :smile:(edited)
  214. [22:48] Bardghost Isu: And Talking of Kool-Aid Drinkers....
  215. [22:48] Arrendis: I love how people trot that out despite Sebastien saying at the time that that was a lie.
  216. [22:48] Vandralys: So I don't see how that is different from gunning for gigx @Dirk_Stetille
  217. [22:48] Naz al-Ghul: "They fought for five hours to defend our systems and failed, but what have they done for me in the past five minutes?"
  218. [22:48] Arrendis: That is definitely not gunning for GigX. That is addressing behaviors.
  219. [22:48] Maccloud: just to let you kow.. co2 werent the ONLY alliance to loose space in that war, although every co2 member seems to think that it was ONLY co2 that were slighted by goons to abandon their space
  220. [22:48] Dirk_Stetille: Jangle, Bardghost, if you'd actually read the doc I referred to you would know that it dates back more than two years prior to the flip with particular grievances.
  221. [22:49] Dirk_Stetille: And CO2 were the only ones to ceded from the Imperium in a hostile manner
  222. [22:49] Bardghost Isu: Oh, I've read it, And i know the shit they pulled, I'm on your side here
  223. [22:49] Jangle UK: I can only talk from my experience. No Bees joined fleets icflew in in defence for several months. Maybe you guys dialled in support or se t cash to the leadership. I wouldn't know about that. But Bees werem't there in the fights I flew in.
  224. [22:49] Naz al-Ghul: Is anyone here still in CO2?
  225. [22:49] Dirk_Stetille: SMA died, FCON went and we didn't pursue them, EXE. kinda went their own way and then died off, RAZOR left and are still kicking in the Dronelands
  226. [22:49] Arrendis: No, we didn't join CO2's fleets. CO2 didn't join our fleets, either. Still went to the same systems and constellations.
  227. [22:50] Vandralys: Lowsexy here
  228. [22:50] Dirk_Stetille: CO2 Were the only ones who tried to flip in a hostile manner
  229. [22:50] Naz al-Ghul: Oh, lowsec. I'm... so sorry.
  230. [22:50] Naz al-Ghul: :stuck_out_tongue:
  231. [22:50] Dirk_Stetille: They tried to grab supers on the way out
  232. [22:50] Jangle UK: I was Co2 until 3 months ago - i've been working too hard to fly in game much on months
  233. [22:50] Vandralys: Eh. Getting faction super kills #lowsecisdead
  234. [22:50] Dirk_Stetille: They set up a major fight and flipped IN THE MIDDLE OF IT
  235. [22:50] Naz al-Ghul: Well when you return, I hope you enjoy Horde fleets.
  236. [22:51] Arrendis: I was in fight after fight up in CO2 space. Remember the night you guys self-destructed an entire mach fleet? You weren't the only fleet in that fight.
  237. [22:51] Jangle UK: Dirk - i wasn't party to the how. I just expereineced thr why.
  238. [22:51] Naz al-Ghul: I wonder if they will widot into Horde.
  239. [22:51] Dirk_Stetille: Well, the how CO2 did it is exactly why we pursue them under their current leadership
  240. [22:52] Bardghost Isu: ^
  241. [22:52] Jangle UK: I moved my stuff out after all rhe keepstars were destroyed. As I had nowhere to keep my large ships in null.
  242. [22:53] Arrendis: Hell, we don't even really 'pursue' them so much as 'have no reason to cut them any slack on our list of 'who isn't blue?' that gets shot'.
  243. [22:53] Dirk_Stetille: That's a fair point
  244. [22:54] Arrendis: I mean, the whole Judgment Day thing? If Aryth could've flipped someone in Darkness and done that the Sort? He would've
  245. [22:54] Dirk_Stetille: In the most recent war we were more interested in pressuring DeadCo than CO2
  246. [22:54] Jangle UK: I'm no fan of Gigx. He has repeatedly been a dick on comms. But I haven't spoken with him since he came back. Not my cup of tea. Butvit seems Sebuan players respind well to the dictator style of play.
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