You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You both like politics.

Stranger: hi

You: hi

Stranger: watcha thinking about

You: nothing much at the moment

You: you?

Stranger: nothing much just talking to people

Stranger: not been having much luck

You: alright

You: what's your political orentation?

You: orientation*

Stranger: rightwing

Stranger: mostly

You: I see

You: I'm left

Stranger: oh nice

Stranger: not to bash to my side

Stranger: but the left has been a lot more pleasant today

Stranger: though yesterday it was all angry commies so

Stranger: meh

You: that's interesting

You: I'm not angry so you might be in luck

Stranger: eh

Stranger: I am not in the mood for screaming I'd just leave

You: yeah

Stranger: so you're a commie ?

You: yea ancom

Stranger: ohhh noooooooo

You: lol

Stranger: atleast believe in the state

Stranger: tankies everywhere be mad

You: hmmm

You: I'm not a fan of tankies but that shouldn't surprise you

Stranger: yup not at all

Stranger: though its nice that you have such a nice view of humanity that you can support an ancom system

Stranger: thats a compliment to you

You: I don't necessarily think that

You: humans can and will take advantage of each other if they get the chance

Stranger: so whats to stop me from murdering people at will once you abolish the police

You: what's to stop me from stopping you

Stranger: me

Stranger: justice should not be something that only the strong have

You: I agree

Stranger: so there needs to be someone to enforce the law

You: disagree

Stranger: law enforcement is needed

Stranger: and who is going to enforce the law on me then ?

You: everyone else

Stranger: yeah i doubt normal people are going to care that i threw a homeless guy over a bridge

Stranger: for funsies

Stranger: enough to start an investigation

You: do you think police today would prevent you from doing that?

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: the thought that there would be a chase and investigation

Stranger: is a great deterrent

You: if nobody sees you and you do it in another town

You: there's basically no way you'd get caught

Stranger: the fear is always there

Stranger: thats what keeps most people in line

Stranger: the police will go after me etc etc

You: most people don't have the desire to throw homeless people over a bridge

Stranger: lol

Stranger: you think people dont want to kill ?

You: yes

Stranger: well thats a compliment to your faith in our goodness lol

You: do you want to kill?

Stranger: ofc

Stranger: duels

Stranger: some guys i want revenge on

Stranger: some guys who would try to kill me

Stranger: but none of that happens

Stranger: why

Stranger: the police

You: interesting

Stranger: you think people would not challenge each other to the death if it was legal ?

Stranger: it had to be outlawed for a reason

Stranger: the policies threat of violence is what keeps order

Stranger: you can argue for reform but you need some sort of enforcement or the law because but a suggestion

You: why do you think the police can do that but not people checking on each other?

Stranger: because the police is a heavily armed force

Stranger: if i rape a woman her husband and brothers might come after me

Stranger: but i can fight those off

Stranger: and then be clean

Stranger: or just skip town

Stranger: the police is for me a single person and unending force

Stranger: that will track me down to the ends of the earth

Stranger: if i skip town they'll hunt me

Stranger: if i kill police officers

Stranger: more will replace them

You: you're pretty keen on raping and murdering

Stranger: nah the murdering is pretty natural the raping was just an example

Stranger: but like a system should not depend on the goodness of people

Stranger: like laws need to be enforced

Stranger: or its just a would it not be nice if people didnt kill each other

Stranger: etc etc

Stranger: like if i murdered you

Stranger: who would try and take me down ?

You: violence is fun, but the vast majority of people empathize with their potential victim to the point where the violence doesn't feel fun anymore

Stranger: if that was the case murder would not be a thing

You: 1 if everyone was deterred by police coming after them then murder would not be a thing
2 I said the vast majority. some people have low empathy like sociopaths
3 how many killings are done for some other reason than for fun?

Stranger: this ignores the fact that the police detters most murders

Stranger: and that without that enforcemen the people who dont murder because of the police would murder

Stranger: you could divide people in 3 classes

Stranger: those who wont murder

Stranger: those who would but dont want to get caught

Stranger: those who dont care about risking arrest

Stranger: only the last category is murdering nowadays

You: >this ignores the fact that the police detters most murders
do you have data on that?
also
>Stranger: those who dont care about risking arrest

Stranger: only the last category is murdering nowadays

there are plenty of people who think they can get away with it

Stranger: yeah as i said

Stranger: those who dont care about risking arrest

Stranger: that means you think you can get away with it

Stranger: very few people conciously murder when they know they will be for sure caught

Stranger: most murders nowadays think they can escape law enforcement

Stranger: https://www.google.lu/search?ei=j6JkWqS1H8WckgWp-6YQ&q=would+you+kill+if+you+could+get+away+it&oq=would+you+kill+if+you+could+get+away+it&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1083.1738.0.2126.3.3.0.0.0.0.107.286.2j1.3.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.106...35i39k1j0i22i30k1.0.49rrIGCPrQM

Stranger: its not that far off peoples mind

Stranger: if you want date you'll find it

You: so basically internet comments

Stranger: you believed me when i told you i'd murder

Stranger: and i am on the internet

Stranger: this is impossible to get hard data on

Stranger: people wont admit to it

You: that's convenient

Stranger: its true though

Stranger: if you asked a 100 thousand people if they would rape

Stranger: they'd tell you no

Stranger: but statistically

Stranger: there are liars there

You: statistically most rapists thought "she wanted it too"

Stranger: those are the ones who get caught

Stranger: if you dont think you are raping you arent smart about the crime

Stranger: and get caught

Stranger: thats not how most rapist think in my experience

You: what's your experience

Stranger: I talk to people

Stranger: all kinds

You: right

Stranger: anyways the google seach shows that a lot of people consider it

Stranger: if they could away with it

Stranger: search*

You: basically most rapists don't realize they are raping

Stranger: most rapist who are caught

Stranger: if you dont think you are raping

Stranger: you dont act in a way to get away with a crime

You: out of those who don't get caught, how many are deliberately raping?

Stranger: there is not a date on those who are not caught

Stranger: so all i could give you is anecdotal

You: well here's some data

You: https://jezebel.com/5929544/rapists-explain-themselves-on-reddit-and-we-should-listen

Stranger: oh yeah i read that thread

Stranger: it was huge

You: yep

Stranger: those rapists think way different

Stranger: to the predator type

Stranger: you have a bit of a naive view of man if i can say that without insulting you

You: and I think you have low empathy and assume most other people do too

You: that's the impression I get at this point

Stranger: low empathy ?

Stranger: if that were the case people wouldnt tell me their secrets

Stranger: I am a good listener

Stranger: i can empthatize

Stranger: but you seem to think everyone is good

Stranger: or most people are good

Stranger: and thats not true

Stranger: and even if it was true which it isnt

Stranger: society would still have to deal with the bad apples

Stranger: in some way

Stranger: and just leaving it to the private sector is not a good idea

You: a lot of those bad apples are precisely the ones who become cops

Stranger: eh a lot of cops go there to let that energy out in a positive way yes

Stranger: but like

Stranger: you cant leave the law enforcement to the private sector

You: earlier I said

You: violence is fun, but the vast majority of people empathize with their potential victim to the point where the violence doesn't feel fun anymore

You: I think you might be someone who isn't like that

Stranger: isnt that type of thinking that has you thinking like that

Stranger: ?

Stranger: people cant disagree with your notion that men are mostly good

Stranger: because if they do you call them evil

Stranger: and thus most shut up

Stranger: and those wont

Stranger: you can just rationalize as arguing my case because they secretly want everyone to be as bad as them

Stranger: and thus your belief can never be proven wrong

You: I didn't call you or anyone evil

Stranger: low empathy or whatever title you want to put on it

You: low empathy doesn't mean evil

You: it's not a problem as long as you don't actually start hurting people

You: just like anyone shouldn't go and hurt people

Stranger: you know what i said still makes sense if you replace evil by low empathy

Stranger: right

You: so far this discussion has been very interesting and civil and I've quite enjoyed it

You: I don't mean to insult you

Stranger: oh i didnt take it as an insult

Stranger: i am just worried you are looping yourself into a belief

You: and I think I can understand where you're coming from with that

Stranger: where am i comming from ?

You: it can look like I'm dismissing those with a different opinion as "low empathy" and not worth engaging or something

Stranger: yeah but in actuality ?

You: most of those people I disagree with, right wingers or else, don't have low empathy in my experience

You: and some of the leftists who have very similar political views to my own do have actual low empathy

Stranger: yeah its not a political thing

Stranger: but like in your society

Stranger: I would probably have gotten away with quite a few killings

Stranger: scot free

Stranger: like how would you even deal with such things

Stranger: if there is no law enforcement

You: that's a good question and an interesting topic to discuss but I want to add

You: most times when I have a conversation about crime and crime prevention with someone who isn't an anarchist

You: how do I put this

You: they seem to be afraid of being wrong. they outright dismiss any sort of idea of how to fight crime without a professional police force

Stranger: there is a reason we dont test new remedies on humans first

Stranger: if it fails it could be fatal for quite a few people the professional force is a tried and tested method

Stranger: to keep law and order

Stranger: buti have never gotten an answer to this question by an ancom

Stranger: so how would you enforce the law ?

You: one sec

You: okay so

You: that question is still a bit vague

Stranger: well if you want it to be more precise lets say I get into a fight with a guy in your society

Stranger: we decide to fight until one of us is dead

Stranger: I kill him

Stranger: what happens

Stranger: to me

You: that's gonna depend on the community you're part of, if you are part of one

Stranger: well we are talking about what you are proposing for society

Stranger: so how would it happen in your society

Stranger: or community

You: I'm thinking

You: let's say you live in a small town that's organized in a non-hierarchical way

You: there's no cops

Stranger: okay

You: how are others affected by this duel and the outcome of the other guy being killed

Stranger: well their family probably didnt take to kindly to it

You: yep

Stranger: but isnt this just protection for those who have people and man power on their side ?

You: in this hypothetical town people choose to live there and interact with everyone else

You: if they don't like it they are free to leave

You: hang on, I'll be right back

Stranger: np

You: I'm back

You: alright

Stranger: so

You: thinking about how to put this

Stranger: you would leave law enforcement to the private sector from what i understand family members etc

Stranger: from what i have gathered

You: you can choose to live in that town and make use of other people's services, in exchange for your own work / services to a degree that everyone is happy with.
you're part of the community. if you do something that upsets others, they may choose not to work with you anymore
if you piss everyone off, they're not required to keep interacting with you, they can come to an agreement and kick you out

You: so now you agree to do a duel to the death with another member of the community

You: the family of the victim may want to punish you in some way, but that family can't just go and enforce what they want, because they too are part of the community where people choose to support each other

Stranger: who's going to enforce the families right to not just try and murder me ?

Stranger: "but that family can't just go and enforce what they want*

You: well yeah they can, but they'll face consequences if that pisses off their community

You: just like you can just go out and murder people if you don't care about being arrested

Stranger: well but unlike arrest

Stranger: the police force to me might as well be infinite in ressources

Stranger: man power etc

Stranger: who the hell is going to care that two people got into an argument and decided to get into a duel

Stranger: and one killed the other enough to try and arrest me(someone who remind you is capable of killing)

Stranger: like apart from the family of that person if they have one

Stranger: think people are going to care ?

You: if it doesn't affect them in any way, should they care?

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: there is a reason duelling was outlawed

You: what's the reason?

Stranger: one duel doesnt hurt anyone

Stranger: but once its a known fact that duelling is legal

Stranger: honour requires it

Stranger: and you get a ton of them

Stranger: and then it becomes problematic

You: isn't dueling then just a symptom of an underlying social issue?

Stranger: its not a societal issue its a human issue

Stranger: men fight to defend their honour that just how men are

Stranger: its a human universal

Stranger: but today men excuse others and themselves from that because the police would track them down

Stranger: so they say stuff like man if i wouldnt get expelled for fighting you right now I'd totally kick your ass or something

Stranger: once that option is open you will be expected to do so

Stranger: there is no excuse anymore

Stranger: for not doing it

You: interesting

You: so how are other people affected by the dueling

You: in this hypothetical town

Stranger: they lose men

Stranger: who could grow into contributing members of society

Stranger: or who could defend society from outsiders etc

You: yes

You: so everyone else in the town has an interest in preventing duels from happening

Stranger: yup but their short term interest is non alligned with that

Stranger: if i was a farmer in that town and you told me the neighbours kids had voluntarely killed each other

Stranger: I wouldnt risk my life to bring the winner down

Stranger: why ?

Stranger: should i

Stranger: risk my life for such things

Stranger: the only ones i could see taking up arms is family of the victim

You: of course

Stranger: and my family wont let that happen

Stranger: especially since i just won a duel he agreed to join voluntarely

Stranger: so you got yourself a blood feud

Stranger: and the victims family is only going to get justice if they are stronger than ours

You: both families still have to interact with everyone else in the town

You: there's always mutual reliance

You: if the family goes berserk they'll piss off the others

Stranger: so if my family is protecting me

Stranger: and the other family only has the choice of pissing everyone else off

Stranger: or letting me go scott free

Stranger: I got away with it ?

You: there isn't just kill or let you get away with it

You: there can be a compromise

You: some sort of punishment, maybe you'll get kicked out of the town

Stranger: who will kick me out of town ?

You: the point is if the family wants to continue living in the town and they don't want to piss everyone off, they need to figure out a way to deal with you that the other people in the town consent to

You: which can be anything

Stranger: yeah thats wrong

Stranger: if i kill someone i should get punished for it

Stranger: the family should not have to compromise with me

You: if the other people in the town consent to you being punished then that's what's going to happen

Stranger: the people wont do anything about a kid killing another kid in a voluntary duel

You: they don't necessarily have to do anything, they just have to consent to what others are doing

Stranger: the others being the victims family

Stranger: which means if i win that

Stranger: i am free to go

Stranger: this is pretty alien to what most people consider justice

Stranger: people are not be ruled by men

Stranger: but by laws

Stranger: also this whole thing breaks down when you consider that most people live in cities

Stranger: like if i kill someone in the streets of anarchy newyork

Stranger: and just run for it

Stranger: the by passers wont take time out of their day to track me down

You: I value my own safety and most other people do too

You: I also care about other people, mostly the ones I interact with

You: and I want them to be safe too

You: people have an interest in staying safe

You: I could probably come up with more ideas on how to deal with crime in a town or city

Stranger: people value their safety thats why they wont track down criminals

Stranger: if it doesnt affect them

You: it does potentially affect me, knowing that a murderer is out there

You: who might kill again

Stranger: thats not how people think

Stranger: when a lion escapes from the zoo most people dont go down to hunt it

Stranger: the likelyhood that this murder would target you is slim to none

Stranger: in a big town

Stranger: the natural defense mechanism is to avoid it

You: in our society we know there are cops to deal with murderers, so you don't see people tracking down killers themselves

You: usually

You: it's not because it's in our nature not to do it

Stranger: when law breaks down

Stranger: i havent seen people trying to enforce order

Stranger: in areas where law enforcement is poor

Stranger: people brawl each other

Stranger: have feuds etc

Stranger: typical gang behaviour

You: those are usually also poor neighborhoods, aren't they?

Stranger: they have poor law enforcement because they are poor

You: they have more crime because they are poor

Stranger: but rich new york turned into a riotious hell hole once the lights went out

You: because people are desperate

Stranger: no thats a myth

Stranger: why is there crime in prisons ?

Stranger: do people starve there ?

Stranger: does anyone lack food or shelter in a prison =

Stranger: ?

You: people have no autonomy in prison

You: poor people have less autonomy too

Stranger: so its not because they are poor now

Stranger: its because of autonomy ?

Stranger: thats why people commit crimes

You: they have less autonomy because of poverty

You: because when you have no money you have limited choices

Stranger: people fight for ressources

Stranger: to steal food and women from each other

Stranger: how would that be stopped without the police ?

Stranger: keeping a semblance of order

You: poor people have less resources yea?

You: does that mean they fight over resources more

Stranger: yes

Stranger: they have more incentives to fight

Stranger: but the poor fight more if there is not police keeping order

Stranger: when police enforcement breaks down the poor loot etc

Stranger: while when there is a semblance of police enforcement they limit themselves to gang activity and a few brawls here and there

Stranger: police has a net effect on lowering the fighting

Stranger: through their monopoly of violence

You: I'm not denying that

You: poor people are more desperate

Stranger: so ?

You: if you're desperate you care less

You: about consequences

Stranger: there arent any consequences in your society

Stranger: since the law isnt really enforced

Stranger: that much

Stranger: so the poor would commit more crimes and fight it out a lot more openly

Stranger: how would you deal with that

You: let me think

You: would they still be poor in this society?

Stranger: well yeah a lot of people depend on the government for welfare etc

Stranger: without the government yeah people would be poor

You: would they still need to pay rent?

Stranger: because i wont build a house for you if you dont give me something in exchange

Stranger: even if everyone stole the house they rent atm

Stranger: their kids or their kids

Stranger: would eventually need a place to live in

You: and other people in the community know how to build houses

Stranger: no one is going to build houses for free

You: it's not free, it's in exchange for all the other services everyone else provides

Stranger: this seems more and more like ancapistan

You: lol

Stranger: like if you dont use enforcement i dont see why i'd build a house

You: first of all landlords are not the people who build houses
if you want to participate in this hypothetical society and use their services (food, roads, clothes, healthcare etc) you will probably be expected to help the community in return

You: if you're a builder you can contribute by building houses

Stranger: or people are just going to trade their ressources freely with each other

Stranger: turning this into capitalism

Stranger: who is even enforcing the shared ownership of property anyways ?

You: what's there to enforce?

Stranger: common property ?

You: like

You: what does this enforcing entail

Stranger: follow the law or else

Stranger: thats what of law enforcment entails

Stranger: pay your taxes or else is a good example of law enforcement

You: okay how is common property supposed to be enforced?

You: who's prevented from doing what with it?

Stranger: having it privatized

Stranger: if you want to abolish private property you need to enforce that

You: enforce how

You: like

You: stop someone from doing what

Stranger: selling goods ?

Stranger: they produce

Stranger: hiring people

Stranger: making profit

Stranger: etc etc

You: you can do whatever, but in ancom there's no reason to work for someone else while they pocket part of what you produce

Stranger: yeah there is its called making money

You: there's no state to print money and no state to enforce private property

Stranger: there is also no state to enforce the communal ownership of things

Stranger: either

You: I still don't understand

You: what is there to be enforced

Stranger: me not murdering

Stranger: me not startinga business

Stranger: the emmergence of private property etc

You: so like creeping hierarchy

Stranger: hierarchy and capitalism are natural

Stranger: state of nature

Stranger: if you want to get away from that you need enforcement

You: okay I obviously disagree but I got a question for you

You: the inversion of that is
if you want to get away from that you need enforcement
does that mean
you don't need enforcement for capitalism and hierarchy?

You: because that's basically ancap isn't it

Stranger: you need enforcement for both

Stranger: they are both un natural states of being

Stranger: that need force to be put into practice

Stranger: in an anarchic society without this enforcement

Stranger: private property would exist

Stranger: unless someone is strong enough to take it

Stranger: from you and not suffer reprecusions

Stranger: and common ownership to some degree

Stranger: there is no consistency

Stranger: the strong would make the rules they liek

Stranger: so maybe I might get away with raping

Stranger: but someone else wouldnt

Stranger: it would not be consistent

You: did I misread or something, you just said hierarchy and capitalism are natural, now you're saying they're not?

Stranger: they are parts of nature yeah

Stranger: but not in the absolute sense

Stranger: if the state wasnt there people would mostly trade with each other

Stranger: but there would be gangs who just took stuff

Stranger: etc

Stranger: property rights need enforcing

Stranger: like any other law

You: calling things natural or unnatural is kind of iffy isn't it, humans are part of nature so everything humans do is part of nature too

Stranger: the state is a recent invention

You: yeah

Stranger: humans evolved to live in small hunter tribes

Stranger: where the anarchic solutions worked out

Stranger: because everyone knew everyone

Stranger: the natural solutions which feel right dont work when you have a billion people society

Stranger: humans are not evolved for this

You: okay so you said
"where the anarchic solutions worked out"

You: umm

Stranger: well there was natural hierarchy

Stranger: back then

Stranger: but not the same kind as today

You: I just have a question for you

You: how do you determine if the form of organizing society "works out"

You: how do you measure that

You: what criteria

Stranger: depends on what you are after

Stranger: there are reasons there are differing styles of government

You: what are you after?

Stranger: will of the people

Stranger: I'm from democracy

Stranger: other people are more concerned about moral absolute laws they'd prefer monarchy

Stranger: others go with republic because they like stability and general freedom

Stranger: republic democracy and monarchy are all time tested forms of government

Stranger: you just pick the one you like most

You: alright

You: do you ever keep in touch with people off omegle?

Stranger: sure meet a great girl on here

Stranger: have a skype ?

You: yes, I use discord more often though

Stranger: I have both

Stranger: though my discord refuses to open sometimes lol

Stranger: what do you prefer ?

You: discord

You: but I can add you on both

Stranger: [redacted]

Stranger: on skype

Stranger: I dont know my discord can you give me yours ?

You: [redacted]

Stranger: you [redacted] ?

You: yup

Stranger: lets talk there