(11:18:24 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: hey, just wanted to give you a heads up and tell you i appreciate you leading the home defense stuff when you can but we have to kill the barghest/rattlesnake home defense stuff. it's just not effective and is causing folks to come farm us repeatedly so they can get blingy kills when people do something stupid. I can't prevent people from doing stupid stuff but i can direct a shift towards using less expensive ships so we need to go back to the domi fleet home defense stuff.
(11:26:56 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: Its effective... you just cant undock with fucking incursion ships https://zkillboard.com/kill/50736950/ - I personaly send that dude 800m because I felt bad
(11:27:16 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: we get penty of kills with our bargs --
(11:27:16 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: https://zkillboard.com/kill/50737104/
(11:27:26 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: https://zkillboard.com/kill/50736182/
(11:27:38 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: https://zkillboard.com/kill/50736420/
(11:27:58 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: https://zkillboard.com/kill/50720026/
(11:27:58 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: I know you do, it's just, you can have 9/10 people using it competently but that 1 guy is an idiot and loses his and it feeds the badguy's will to come back more.
(11:28:02 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: This isn't about kill mails
(11:28:17 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: this is about blue balling our enemmies so they stop coming to our doorstep to fight while folks are trying to rat
(11:28:31 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: these guys come up regardless to kill carriers
(11:28:31 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: yeah  yeah, blingy kill mails are a part of what causes them to come back.
(11:28:56 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: the trick is to formup and give them something that is not fun to fight
(11:29:16 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: whenever we drop bargs and triage they leave
(11:29:38 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: and they'll leave faster when you start dropping domis since they domis can outrange/track the bargs
(11:30:14 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: domis dont have the dps unless we have 3x more than we do bargs
(11:30:49 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: but you can get 3x more than you can bargs because they use skills that most people should already have. bargs require a bunch of missile skills that most folks don't have.
(11:30:58 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: ALso only people who can afford the barg are encuraged to fly them
(11:31:10 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: this is why I have included several support ships that are cheaper than a domi
(11:31:31 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: and rattlesnakes which have 2x the dps of a domi and way more tank and cost less than 500m
(11:31:37 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: You don't see that this isn't about the fact that people lose them and complalin, it's about the fact that they WILL get lost regardless and cause people to keep coming back.
(11:32:28 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: you can barely get 10 bargs but i promise, if you fly them and encourage folks to fly them like you do the bargs, people with get in the domis and you'll have 30 domis which will be a lot more unfun to fight.
(11:32:46 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: I already stated that these guys come to kill carriers regardless of if we form up to fight them or not
(11:33:23 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: the problem with domis is they cant project dmg against nano mwd cruisers
(11:33:41 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: domis can hit petes. of course they can project damage against mwd cruisers
(11:33:48 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: you fit tracking and range
(11:34:40 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: I think more of our pilots already have the skills to fly rattlesnakes than domis
(11:35:00 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: they require the same skills. rattlesnakes are only for fighting machs in lowsec
(11:35:13 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: not unless you shield tank a domi
(11:35:17 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: i don't want people tossing away rattlesnakes that they should have forward deployed to d2 anyways
(11:35:33 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: I need  you to run domis
(11:35:37 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: if you run a home def
(11:35:37 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: or
(11:35:40 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: not run them at all
(11:36:16 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: we dont even have armor triage
(11:36:21 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: we do
(11:36:24 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: you are being a child
(11:37:27 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: we can keep arguing about this
(11:37:38 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: or you can just agree to work with me and mov eon.
(11:37:51 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: Alright I wont officialy Fc anything... if people want to fight nerds who come up here with me they can, otherwise I will multibox bargs and triage with a few friends
(11:38:12 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: Then I will doomsday your triage
(11:38:15 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: lol
(11:38:17 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: and kill your bargs
(11:38:52 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: the fact that you respond with blingy shit is the problem
(11:38:54 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: dude give me a break... why cant people fly stuff that they want to fly
(11:38:55 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: i want these guys to go away
(11:39:09 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: they're not going away because people keep flying blingy shit
(11:39:11 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: it's psychology
(11:39:26 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: people can keep carrier ratting
(11:39:32 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: and they can keep coming up here to hunt carrier ratters
(11:39:49 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: but when they do, i want us responding in the most boring, tried and true doctrine available.
(11:40:45 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: not some kind of snowflake golden rainbow unicorn doctrine that works really well when everyone pilots it and never fuck up but people fuck up. We lost a rattler the other day because the dude wanted to MJD and go scoop loot. Shit happens. It's always going to happen, but, we need these guys to fuck off and go back to farming JU-
(11:40:58 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: We can't do that if you're undocking bargs
(11:41:03 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: That's the bottom line here.
(11:41:14 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: I gaurentee you there are more carriers in ju-
(11:41:20 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: 2-3 times more carriers
(11:41:24 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: but they don't get farmed
(11:41:27 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: WE GET FARMED
(11:41:39 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: why is that?
(11:42:26 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: because people MJD off the undock with 2 billion isk domis
(11:42:44 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: yes that happened yesterday
(11:42:47 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: they're welcome too, but a domi KM is a domi KM
(11:42:54 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: you still haven't explained why we get farmed
(11:42:59 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: no it was a domi with 2 pithum a-types
(11:43:00 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: and JU- doesn't
(11:43:11 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: and the dude just MJD'd off the undock away from everyone else
(11:43:23 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: Why do we get farmed and JU- doesn't?
(11:43:35 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: people do stupid shit like that
(11:43:37 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: Yes
(11:43:54 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: If we can't stop people from doing stupid shit, what's the next best thing?
(11:44:10 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: *doing stupid shit in their blingy ship fits*
(11:49:19 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: I will stop encuraging people to fly the barg. However myself and a few friends will continue to fly them so long as they prove effective. I am talking 2 other dudes who know what they are doing and when to stay docked.
(11:49:42 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: I agree with you that when there is alot of people involved someone is going to do something stupid and lose a billion isk battleship
(11:50:20 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: I need everyone fighting together here
(11:50:22 AM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: That is something I thought of already and should have considered before encuraging people to fly them
(11:50:27 AM) Markonius Porkbutte: Or i'm undocking dreads and shooting you.
(12:11:08 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: I'm not trying to be an asshole here. I just need for everyone to be on the same page strategically for a while.
(12:12:26 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: once the barbarians stop raiding, you can run bargs until the cows come home.
(12:12:57 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: Yea I know, I was just trying to take the initiative to fight these guys because no one else would
(12:13:07 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: yeah, a lot of that is our fault.
(12:13:26 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: like, i'd say i'm the one that is ultimately to blame for our defense in north dek slackening off
(12:14:51 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: I did not know the bargs / snakes were such a bad idea as bargs are being adopted as a reavers doctrine and snakes a alliance doctrine. And using them for home defense gets people on the fight training path for both of those. Domis have not been used on an alliance or large-scale level for a very very long time and I know I dont have any pilots with good armor skills
(12:14:59 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: Aside from my proteus pilot in d2
(12:15:58 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: I thought it was a good idea :( I was trying to synergize our home defense with official doctrines
(12:16:18 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: Yeah, I'm not coming down on your for your initiative. I like the initiative.
(12:16:20 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: domis have even been removed from the offical stratigic doctrine megathread
(12:16:36 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: That's mostly because we're not fighting on ihubs anymore.
(12:17:08 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: but generally, at least when we've done it in the past and when theta has done it with us, we just sit on a gate or station and hit stuff that comes into our range.
(12:17:39 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: most of our strategic line ships have turned into fast/kitey stuff in order to fit the meta for the strat objectives we're fighting for.
(12:17:52 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: And according to Atrum "Welcome to Mazefleet, the modern-day successor to Dominixes.  We default to a drone-centric setup that has comparable offensive range to Dominixes, but with three times the tank and twice the damage.  For breaking hard targets such as triage carriers, FCs can call for refits to cruise missiles, which turns these into absolutely monstrous 900dps brawlers."
(12:17:58 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: snakes and domis are the same
(12:18:11 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: snakes are just so much cheaper now because we crashed the market on the bpcs
(12:18:25 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: so they are more cost effective for what they are capable of than domis
(12:18:50 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: as much as an asshole as i've been in this convo, that's a good point.
(12:19:21 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: also the drones are much harder to headshot
(12:19:23 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: let me run it by ted.
(12:19:27 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: cause people like doing that
(12:19:47 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: I lost like 300 drones from 1 of my carriers the other day
(12:19:54 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: t1 ofc
(12:19:58 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: yeah
(12:20:39 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: if ted moves to rattlesnakes i'd consider them. Main reason I just don't is because it's still a fairly expensive ship for a line pilot, While isk might not mean anything to you and mean, it's still x2 what a domi would be.
(12:20:56 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: When I wrote that thread I was thinking 75% snakes /  10% bargs / 15% recons -- the barg is mainly for the 70km point
(12:21:06 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: its rly good at keeping tackle on nerds
(12:21:46 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: We have a lot of folks who still have domi skills, they're not 'that' rare considering we were using domis not that long ago, this summer.
(12:22:04 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: mostly with the domis
(12:22:09 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: you just want them to be unbreakable
(12:22:16 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: sit on an objective and be unkillable
(12:22:28 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: you might kill a few, you might kill none, but the point is to not feed them any kills
(12:22:41 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: thats the idea
(12:23:01 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: there's a lot of theory crafting still going on with the rattlesnakes.
(12:23:29 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: we've yet to really test them en masse. i've just seen a  number of doctrines that work well on paper, just never live up to surviving in practice.
(12:24:00 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: Idk I might have came off as a bit abrasive just because of how much I have personaly invested in my defense fleet... just plugged in high grade snakes on my barg pilot a few hours ago
(12:24:03 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: I'm usually not a very conservative person, but, we know domis work for home defense and there's no reason to think anything has changed to make them less useful because nothing has really changed.
(12:24:15 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: and got a 3b triage carrier shipped down yesterday
(12:24:24 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: so it was a bit hard to hear telling me I could not use it
(12:25:02 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: yeah, we really fucked up by letting home defense go unnoticed for a long time. Doctrines aside, the main goal is to not feed them kills.
(12:25:11 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: When you have a fleet concept that only 10% of your pilots can fly
(12:25:17 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: that's not very useful to the overall group
(12:25:51 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: yea I 100% agree.... personaly I dont have experiene FCing large groups, that is the only time we have lost anything expensive
(12:26:12 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: when its just a few people fighting 5-6 dudes its much easier to manage
(12:26:18 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: for me at least
(12:26:37 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: large groups is all about getting everyone in the cheapest ship with the easiest most maximized fit you can put on it.
(12:26:52 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: 5 domis for the cost of 1 barg
(12:27:00 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: 20 domis for the cost of 1 triage
(12:27:07 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: you also generally want your triage to be suicide fit
(12:27:12 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: for the most part, you're going to die
(12:27:17 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: as soon as you hit triage
(12:27:22 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: at least it's very likely
(12:27:24 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: my fit can tank 2 dreads forever
(12:27:33 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: as long as I have stront
(12:27:42 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: ~19k omnitank
(12:27:50 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: when i fly triage on my archon i don't use any ded mods, i just use imp navy energized adaptives and that's about as blingy as it gets.
(12:28:01 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: mostly just want the 2 armor reppers running constantly without draining your cap
(12:28:17 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: i jumped my triage in to save mizas carrier
(12:28:27 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: and they could not break it nor neut it
(12:28:40 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: yeah, no doubt, 3bil fit traige is a well fit triage
(12:28:53 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: under small gang circumstances that's fine
(12:29:06 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: but in a large fight, when caps are getting vollied
(12:29:10 PM) Markonius Porkbutte: you don't want to do that
(12:29:15 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: this was today
(12:29:25 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: when they had like 20 subcaps on it
(12:29:34 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: where the shitfit nidhogger died
(12:29:56 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: But yea if they bring more people that wont work
(12:31:26 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: generaly speaking we dont get massive fleets roaming up here... when I see PL bring 50 sleps I will be scarred
(12:31:36 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: or bhaalgorns
(12:35:13 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: https://zkillboard.com/kill/50752948/ -- that 1 that died can tank 8614 dps for a little under 10 minutes if it goes into triage at 100% cap... if it cynos in and immediatly goes into triage like it did the cap lasts ~3 minutes. However it was also under neuting preasure from 2 curses which means it will cap out in less than 2 minutes (which it did)
(12:38:30 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: They had roughly 5000-8000 dps on the field today, which means that my fit can tank them till the cows come home. That is the thing, before I do anything I look at what they have ongrid and run the numbers in my head. People cant be blind jumping shit to a tackled carrier
(12:41:08 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: https://gyazo.com/8c60c554144a77f1b5fc0ee448c66362 -- I do theoretical tests on all my fits and then do simulations. 2 dreads sieged on that thing yesterday and it was holding
(12:44:08 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: That is why I specificly mentioned bhaalgorns... https://gyazo.com/f9a1ec4a9371fe6bf2840af5ddbdd9c6 caps out in less than 4 minutes.
(12:44:45 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: I dont think they will bring heavy armor tanked battleships into north dek tbh... the meta is fast nano shield doctrines
(12:44:59 PM) mitt_rawmoney_rawmoney@goonfleet.com/271e988b: so the most neuting preasure likely to be seen is several curses