Buddhism, Forgiveness, Meditation

12:20:29 PM→ InvertedDoppleganger has joined
12:20:29 PMⓘ This is a time of love, the Graceful love of God. May we all remember this as we celebrate the birth of Christ. May we show it in all we do. Merry Christmas to all and have a happy holiday season.
12:20:31 PMⓘ Profound set mode +v InvertedDoppleganger
12:20:34 PM+DaKineTonySnark, dig a bit deeper.  He's not truly saying to hate them so much as to love Him more.  He's saying, essentially, that anyone who loves these moer than Him is not worthy.
12:20:44 PM Stopped ignoring TonySnark!*@*
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12:20:54 PM+Peter__ChuckWagon: , how does one truly repent? it feels some emotions I have deep down have not been acknowledged or expressed .
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12:20:56 PM+TonySnarkLook like he's saying hate there though.
12:21:02 PM+InvertedDopplegangerDaKine: How do you interpret Jesus' teachings, given there are no gods?
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12:21:17 PM+DaKineTonySnark, there are commentaries, other translations, and Greek word studies that will help clear that up.
12:21:27 PM+DaKineInvertedDoppleganger, not even going to bother with that.
12:21:31 PM+TonySnarkI think your claim must take this into account.
12:21:51 PM+TonySnarkDaKine: commentaries, other translations, etc, are not your claim.
12:22:13 PM+DaKineTonySnark, I've explained the meaning of that verse to you.  Nothing else to say.
12:22:19 PM+DaKineNot going to engage in an endless argument about it.
12:22:24 PM+AxisTwhat if my neighbor hates me and works/makes plannings against me and seeks my destruction..should I still love my neighbour? when should I decide to teach them a lesson by devising  my own planning
12:22:32 PM+Peter__ChuckWagon,how does one truly repent?
12:22:53 PM+TonySnarkYou've thrown words at me, I wouldn't call it an explanation.
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12:23:36 PM+Peter__ChuckWagon: how do you experience grace? Ease?
12:23:36 PM+DaKineTonySnark, I've told you what that verse is saying, and where you can find more information about that verse.
12:24:14 PM+DaKineAxisT, to answer your question, yes, you should still love.  Jesus loved all the way to the cross.
12:25:00 PM+TonySnarkNo, you've told me your interpretation of it.
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12:25:13 PM+Peter__ChuckWagon: , how do you experience the favor?
12:25:28 PM+TonySnarkOr do you think I need to lobotomize myself and just go along with anything you say?
12:25:30 PM+DaKineTonySnark, as I said, not going to engage in an endless argument.  You can either read other translations, commentaries, and Greek word studies, or not.  Up to you.
12:25:49 PM+DaKinelol @ "anything *YOU* say" ... I clearly referred you to other resources.
12:25:58 PM+DaKineThis is an absolutely stupid argument on your part.
12:26:00 PM* DaKine is moving on.
12:26:03 PM+TonySnarkOk. And you can either back your claim or not. (You have not, btw.) Up to you.
12:26:07 PM Ignoring DaKine!*@*
12:26:19 PM+InvertedDopplegangerImagine it being 2017 and you think there are gods who involved themselves in human affairs.
12:26:39 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThen, imagine that you are emotionally motivated to share this knowledge you have of the gods and their profound messages for humanity with other members of your species.
12:26:55 PM+InvertedDopplegangerI was wrong. It is 2018.
12:28:38 PM+Peter__ChuckWagon: I mean what is 'favor' in this context?
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12:29:09 PM+TonySnarkHiyas Chuck
12:30:35 PM+AxisTok last thing...If my neighbour do bad works such as animal abuse...I am talking about real abuse...seeing all this should I still love my neighbours? and welcome them and share with them foods and invite them to party with me when seriously how can a person like such people and how can one love such neighbours
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12:31:14 PM@BlackXanthushello
12:31:14 PM+TonySnarkLoving one's neighbors doesn't mean accepting their behaviour regardless.
12:31:34 PM+TonySnarkLoving one's neighbors is a mindset you take to every interaction with them.
12:31:50 PM+Peter__ChuckWagon: How do I get God's approval? To live more morally?
12:32:17 PM+AxisTok thanks...but it would be fake love...from heart how can a person love abusers
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12:32:36 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThe average Christian ends up having a weak understanding of history, anthropology, psychology, and sociology.
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12:33:34 PM+Peter__ChuckWagon: how can I ask Christ to forgive my sins? I am really asking this.
12:34:28 PM+Peter__I have.
12:34:31 PM+InvertedDopplegangerPeter__: Theism is false, as you know.
12:34:54 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTherefore, at best, Christ becomes a manifestation for parts of your harder to access to mind, or your ideals/values.
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12:35:09 PM+InvertedDopplegangerIn that case, asking Christ to forgive yourself amounts to you forgiving yourself.
12:35:18 PM+InvertedDopplegangerForgiveness of self is a core Buddhist technique, as you know.
12:35:26 PM@dizzy_i was getting a lesson in modifying nerf guns
12:35:27 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThe Buddhist model appears superior in every way, in this context.
12:35:31 PM Ignoring dizzy_!*@*
12:35:45 PM+InvertedDopplegangerPeter__: I can help you.
12:35:52 PM+InvertedDopplegangerWould you like for us to sit together for a moment.
12:35:53 PM+Peter__ChuckWagon: some parts of my spirit still feel heavy.
12:36:02 PM+InvertedDoppleganger(When two of you come together in my name, then there I am, too)
12:36:20 PM+Barabbas`There is no forgivness in buddhism because there is no one to forgive. The best there is in buddhism is a hope for loss of suffering that can only come about by loss of self.
12:36:41 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThere is no one to do the forgiving, or no targets for forgiveness?
12:36:50 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThe ones doing the forgiving are typically Homo sapiens.
12:36:54 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThe targets are generally Homo sapiens.
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12:37:10 PM+Barabbas`There is nothing to be forgiven for, since everything is part of the all.
12:37:27 PM+InvertedDopplegangerForgiveness isn't as central to Buddhist practice as Christian practice, I would agree.
12:37:33 PM+InvertedDopplegangerForgiveness is quite important in Buddhism, though.
12:37:33 PM+Peter__Why do I still sin?
12:37:35 PM+Barabbas`ChuckWagon: You are an op, so I am sure he is ignoring you.
12:37:38 PM@CalebI think Buddhism doesnt dwell on guilt so much as understanding
12:37:52 PM+InvertedDopplegangerCaleb: I agree.
12:37:55 PM+Barabbas`There is no forgivness concept in Buddhism. There is just is.
12:38:05 PM+InvertedDopplegangerBarabbas`: That is false.
12:38:22 PM+InvertedDopplegangerBarabbas`: There are different schools of Buddhism, as there are different schools of Christianity.
12:38:34 PM@Calebjust total reality yes I'd agree that is pretty buddhistic
12:38:48 PM+InvertedDopplegangerAlso, there are different 'levels' in Buddhist practice, e.g. the Vinaya Pitaka has the goal of providing compassion to those monks who see others as empty.
12:38:58 PM+Barabbas`InvertedDoppleganger; No school of buddhism teaches forgivness, EVERY school of Christianity teaches forgiveness.
12:39:02 PM+Peter__ChuckWagon: well, many in the flesh make it look easy to live high moral lives.
12:39:08 PM+Peter__to need little and give lot.
12:39:12 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThis is important as most non-monks do not see themselves as empty.
12:39:14 PM+TonySnarkChuckWagon: I was away for a bit. What is the challenge?
12:39:19 PM+Peter__I want to know how they did it.
12:39:31 PM+InvertedDopplegangerBarabbas`: Do you agree your claim is vulnerable?
12:39:36 PM+InvertedDopplegangerI need only show a single counter-example.
12:39:38 PM+Barabbas`InvertedDoppleganger Those aren't levels, best you can say is they are emphasis
12:39:46 PM+InvertedDopplegangerI disagree.
12:39:58 PM@CalebI think many buddhists advise we forgive others but I can't think of any talking about our own selves being forgiven
12:40:00 PM+Barabbas`InvertedDoppleganger disagree all you like, it won't change what is
12:40:09 PM+Peter__ChuckWagon, Barabbas` ,InvertedDoppleganger , thank you all for your words. I must depart for now
12:40:11 PM* Peter__ bows out
12:40:25 PM+Barabbas`InvertedDoppleganger Please show where Gautamma offered forgivness
12:40:27 PM+InvertedDopplegangerCaleb: Thich Nhat Hanh advises we forgive ourselves.
12:40:45 PM+InvertedDopplegangerHe teaches a practice of seeing with versions of ourselves in our memories and forgiving them.
12:40:58 PM@CalebI could see why he might say that
12:41:01 PM+InvertedDopplegangerInviting hurtful memories to sit next to us as we comfort them.
12:41:03 PM+Barabbas`How can you forgive what is karma
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12:41:25 PM+InvertedDopplegangerBarabbas`: I don't feel your disposition is consistent with learning or listening to me.
12:41:28 PM Ignoring Barabbas`!*@*
12:41:37 PM+InvertedDopplegangerI am going to disengage from you at this time, as a result.
12:41:54 PM+InvertedDopplegangerI do not know the Buddhist ideology he was pulling on in that construction, Caleb.
12:42:02 PM+InvertedDopplegangerI think it may have been in his commentary on the Heart Sutra.
12:42:06 PM@CalebThich Nhat Hanh was involved in healing Vietnamese people in aftermath of war
12:42:12 PM+InvertedDopplegangerYep.
12:42:14 PM@Calebforgiveness etc
12:42:44 PM@Calebagreed buddha didn't offer forgiveness but understanding
12:42:50 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThe Buddhism I am interested in is that Buddhism which is consistent with contemporary Western science.
12:43:04 PM+InvertedDopplegangerForgiveness and hurt are major dimensions of the human mind.
12:43:21 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTherefore, any theory of mind will have major practices around forgiveness and hurt.
12:43:39 PM@Caleblovingkindness meditation comes to mind
12:43:42 PM+InvertedDopplegangerIn my version of Buddhism, there is no karma, as that is not a scientifically sound concept.
12:44:03 PM@Calebwhat no feelings?
12:44:14 PM@Calebthat can't be good
12:44:30 PM+Rewindbuddhism doesn't contradict science
12:44:37 PM+InvertedDopplegangerSome parts of it do.
12:45:05 PM+InvertedDopplegangerhttps://youtu.be/RZFf9lYHn_c?t=1798
12:45:08 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThis song is amazing.
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12:45:32 PM+Rewindwaxing stupidly?  how christian
12:45:42 PM+InvertedDopplegangerI believe Buddhism will eventually be rolled into a computational framework.
12:46:04 PM+InvertedDopplegangerRemember, science has discovered there are no gods.
12:46:08 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTherefore, all religions are atheist projects.
12:46:17 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThe believers in those religions think they are not atheist projects, but they are wrong.
12:46:25 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTherefore, all content from all religions are just human minds navigating existence.
12:46:35 PM+RewindDaKine:  it was a christian that said waxing stupidly....i was pointing out how chrisitian it was of him to say that
12:46:36 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTherefore, all Christian teachings on forgiveness are available to me, an atheist.
12:46:45 PM+InvertedDopplegangerIt's as much my family's teachings as the Christian.
12:47:02 PM+Rewindproof something doesn't exist?  lol
12:47:26 PM+TonySnark154600 <+InvertedDoppleganger> Remember, science has discovered there are no gods. < this is actually false.
12:47:29 PM+InvertedDopplegangerI agree that at higher levels of Buddhist thought forgiveness may not be a goal.
12:47:29 PM+RewindDaKine: prove it
12:47:39 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: Why is that false?
12:47:48 PM+InvertedDopplegangerHowever, many people are suffering right now.
12:47:50 PM@CalebRE: science & Buddhism  -->  https://www.amazon.ca/Why-Buddhism-True-Philosophy-Enlightenment-ebook/dp/B01MPZNG63/ref=sr_1_1?ie=U...
12:48:01 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThe best teachings are to meet people where they are at.
12:48:07 PM+InvertedDopplegangerAnd suffering people often need forgiveness.
12:48:15 PM+InvertedDopplegangerBut the suffering people are not just out there -- I'm also one of them.
12:48:19 PM+InvertedDopplegangerAnd so I will forgive myself.
12:48:33 PM+TonySnarkInvertedDoppleganger: because it's not scientifically possible to test for all possible gods.
12:48:35 PM+RewindBarabbas`:  you're welcome....it's always nice pointing out your hypocrisy
12:48:41 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: Agreed.
12:48:55 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: All statements in scientific epistemology are probabilistic statements.
12:48:56 PM+TonySnarkSo why make the statement in the first place?
12:49:18 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: Because (now with more context), science has discovered there are no gods (with high probability).
12:49:30 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThe leading models of causality in all domains of science feature zero gods.
12:49:38 PM+InvertedDopplegangerBecause models that feature gods are less likely true.
12:49:40 PM+TonySnarkEven probabilistically the statement is false. Science has "discovered" no such thing.
12:49:42 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThat's what truth means in science.
12:49:43 PM@Caleb"All statements in scientific epistemology are probabilistic statements."  <--- that's pretty cool , is it true ?
12:50:02 PM+InvertedDopplegangerCaleb: Bayesian inference is at the core of scientific inference.
12:50:15 PM+Rewindi've yet to see any wisdom come from Barabbas`
12:50:35 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: Are you aware of any scientific models that feature any gods?
12:50:45 PM+Rewindi've been here plenty...i even remember when he used to be an OP  ;)
12:50:51 PM@Calebcan you give me a brief synopsis of Bayesian inference is in your own words?  if too complex is OK forget it
12:50:53 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: Do agree science has vigorously searched for various types of gods?
12:51:00 PM+TonySnarkScience HAS shown us why deities are unessesary for all sorts of phenomenon we used to use them to explain. It has created a "god of the gaps" phenomenon. But it can not close that gap 100%. I do submit it has closed that gap for all practical cases - but that is disparate from your original statement.
12:51:11 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: Nothing in science is 100%.
12:51:16 PM+Rewindclearly i'm not :)
12:51:20 PM+InvertedDopplegangerIncluding atomic theory and relativity.
12:51:26 PM+InvertedDopplegangerYou are relying on a false choice.
12:51:26 PM+Rewindweird he USED to be an op :)
12:51:41 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: Let me remove gods from this conversation for a moment.
12:51:53 PM+InvertedDoppleganger1. Person X is sick because of Y. Y is in their body.
12:52:05 PM+Rewindyou started commenting to me
12:52:09 PM+InvertedDoppleganger2. Science then investigates thoroughly for Y. No Y is found.
12:52:12 PM+Rewindi'm just responding
12:52:16 PM+InvertedDoppleganger3. Y-believers change their defintion.
12:52:25 PM+InvertedDoppleganger4. Science searches for that new definition. No Y is found.
12:52:46 PM+InvertedDoppleganger5. This repeats for at least 150 years. Science investigates many types of Y in many parts of X. No Y is ever detected.
12:52:48 PM+Rewindsure when i see some i'll let you know
12:53:02 PM+InvertedDoppleganger6. All models develop in all parts of X are useful at explaining many phenomena and there are no Ys present.
12:53:17 PM+InvertedDoppleganger7. Statement: "Science has discovered there are no Ys (with high probability)"
12:53:19 PM+InvertedDopplegangerDo you object?
12:53:24 PM+Rewindthink i'll be waiting awhile seeing any come from Barabbas` :)
12:53:50 PM+TonySnarkInvertedDoppleganger: you should know why your imprecise formulation earlier was wrong.
12:53:56 PM@Caleb was that bayesian inference in action InvertedDoppleganger ?
12:54:01 PM+InvertedDopplegangerBecause I didn't include the probability part?
12:54:05 PM+InvertedDopplegangerCaleb: Yes.
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12:54:21 PM+InvertedDopplegangerBayesian inference posits we can never know what is going on, but that we can only sort models of what is going on.
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12:54:25 PM@Calebseems like only a crazy person would cling to "y"
12:54:33 PM+InvertedDopplegangerSo, we posit several competing models with roughly equal chance of being true
12:54:51 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThen, we figure out what experiments would make one of the models more likely than the others. Run that experiment. Compute the posterior. Repeat.
12:55:00 PM+InvertedDopplegangerAll models that contain gods are trash in science.
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12:55:12 PM+InvertedDopplegangerNo practicing science in any domain of science uses any model with a god in it.
12:55:17 PM+TonySnarkNo, because your wording is like treating it as the inverse of what it is. It didn't discover there are no gods, like it has discovered a law of gravity.
12:55:32 PM@Calebwhat kinds of theory include the simultaneous inter related working together of all things?
12:55:40 PM+TonySnarkYou can't "discover" a negative. You can only work to do an exhaustive search.
12:55:42 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: I agree the primary usage of 'discover' is in a positive sense.
12:55:51 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: I disagree, though, that you can't discover a negative.
12:55:57 PM+InvertedDopplegangerSo, that is where our disagreement is.
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12:56:14 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: Let me make a try.
12:56:35 PM+InvertedDoppleganger1. The Pacific Ocean is very large. There is an island with unicorns on it, that is, horses with a single antler from their head.
12:56:51 PM+Rewindhe didn't have a point..he just claimed he was "waxing stupidly"
12:56:52 PM+TonySnarkInvertedDoppleganger: you can discover a negative only in a limited, specific context. "I looked inside the room, it was well lit, it was empty, therefore there are no elephants in the room."
12:56:58 PM+InvertedDoppleganger2. Scientists use a randomized search of the Pacific Ocean such that the odds of them missing such an island is 0.0000001%.
12:57:06 PM+InvertedDoppleganger3. Scientists have discovered there is no island.
12:57:11 PM+TonySnark*yawn*
12:57:15 PM Ignoring TonySnark!*@*
12:57:19 PM+InvertedDopplegangerTonySnark: I ended my conversation with you.
12:57:25 PM@Calebthat's a bayesian inference
12:57:49 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThere could have been an island -- it was possible -- just as it's possible there are gods (according to some definitions).
12:57:59 PM+InvertedDopplegangerOur search thus far indicates there are no gods -- that was quite a discovery.
12:58:07 PM+InvertedDopplegangerGiven the importance of gods in early human culture/civilization.
12:58:49 PM@Calebso we can dispense with first hand accounts with God by prophets, saints, etc ?  on what grounds ?
12:59:06 PM@Calebscience doesn't see them in the lab so they aren't there?
12:59:08 PM+InvertedDopplegangerFirst hand accounts with gods were something else than claimed.
12:59:14 PM+InvertedDopplegangerWith very high probability.
12:59:27 PM@Calebno
12:59:30 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThe most likely explanation is they were confabulations by the viewer's mind.
1:00:02 PM+InvertedDopplegangerAlso, the brain physiology may have been modified by usage of external substances.
1:00:21 PM+InvertedDopplegangerPeople who take psychedelics report patterns in their experiences, e.g. floating, small beings
1:00:43 PM* The_Machine likes floating and small beings.  hmmmm.
1:00:44 PM+RewindDMT
1:00:44 PM@Calebwith predictable regularity, everyone encounters them apparently
1:00:57 PM+InvertedDopplegangerRewind: Yep.
1:01:18 PM@Calebhuman beings invoke supernatural aid all over the world in different cultures and times
1:01:20 PM+InvertedDopplegangerBuddhism has a meditative practice that seems to do something similar to taking psychedelics.
1:01:29 PM+InvertedDopplegangerSo-called 'sensory meditation'.
1:01:35 PM+The_MachineBRB, becoming a buddhist.
1:01:46 PM+InvertedDopplegangerThe goal is to perceive the immediate sensations of objects, rather than the object which is composed by those sensory perceptions.