Did Frodo travel to Valinor, with bradmaj

bradmaj
TomBombadil, Goldberry is asking where you're at
Edvard
Tom Bombadillo
21:11 SamaelsDaughter
so what about the jewish view of samael
bradmaj
He was a Tolkien self-insert
Edvard
A Tolkien self-insert, thats interesting
Edvard
I always read he was secretly Illuvatar
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bradmaj
If so, he could have handled the ring
bradmaj
and Sauron would not be a threat
Edvard
He did handle the ring though
Edvard
He put it on and took it off witout any trouble
bradmaj
The only time we really see illuvitar intervene in LOTR is when Gollum falls in the lava
Edvard
Elron said the reason he couldnt be trusted with it is because He didnt care enough
bradmaj
and of course, when he sends Gandalf back
Edvard
Did he send Gandalf back? I thought perhaps that was the head Valar dude, forget his name
Edvard
Illuvatar, according to what I read in the Silmarillion intervened once, to bury Numenor
bradmaj
Edvard, Elrond ALSO said Sauron could defeat him, if he showed up in person. since illuviatr is creator of the universe, and SAuron is a maia, it shouldn't even be an issue
bradmaj
Manwe
Edvard
Dats it
bradmaj
and only Illuvitar had the authority to reincarnate an istari
Edvard
I see
Edvard
Is that written in like Tolkiens Letters because I havent read those yet
bradmaj
manwe could reincarnate an elf, however. he did it with Glorfindel
bradmaj
and probably Beren.
bradmaj
for a while
dockside
WitchOfEndor: Tell me about Jewish witches.
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WitchOfEndor
I have just barely started looking into it. I discovered just one personal blog about it. I will eventually read more. :)
Edvard
So WitchOfEndor, you uhh *sniff* You gunna conjure up the spirit of Samuel or...
WitchOfEndor
LOL
bradmaj
don't do it!!
dockside
WitchOfEndor: Do Jewish witches pull the strings in the shadows?
WitchOfEndor
She did summon him, yes!
bradmaj
Besides, I bet his hair is REALLY long now...
dockside
(A vetting process has been initiated against WitchOfEndor.)
Edvard
Ive not heard of Jewish witches, only some stuff about Golems in Traditional Kabbalah
Edvard
Using the name of God to do stuff or whatever
dockside
Edvard: There are no witches on Earth.
dockside
Jewish or otherwise.
Edvard
Uhh
Edvard
You are delusional
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Edvard
There are a ton of people who practice witchcraft
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dockside
Edvard: Good day.
dockside waves bon voyage, like when Frodo departed to Valinor
bradmaj
he didn't go to Valinor
bradmaj
he went to tol Eressa
dockside
I think you're mistaken, sir.
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dockside
https://movies.stackexchange.com/questions/10037/where-are-frodo-gandalf-and-the-others-going-at-the-end-and-why
dockside
In TA 3021 (Third Age), Círdan the Shipwright accompanied Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf, the Keepers of the Rings, on a voyage to the Undying Lands, where they intended to remain. They were also joined by Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Hobbits who were among the very few mortal beings to be allowed passage to the Undying Lands. Eventually, Samwise Gamgee, another Hobbit of the Shire, and the Dwarf Gimli along with h
dockside
is good friend Legolas, are also said to have made the journey.
dockside
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valinor
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dockside
Valinor (Land of the Valar) is a fictional location in J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium, the realm of the Valar on the continent of Aman, far to the west of Middle-earth; he used the name Aman mainly to mean Valinor. It included Eldamar, the land of the Elves, who as immortals had been permitted to live in Valinor.
SamaelsDaughter
nah samael was in talmudic lore
SamaelsDaughter
right
dockside
Aman was known somewhat misleadingly as "the Undying Lands", but the land itself, while blessed, did not cause mortals to live forever.[T 1] However, only immortal beings were generally allowed to reside there. Exceptionally, the surviving bearers of the One Ring, Bilbo and Frodo Baggins and Sam Gamgee, were allowed to dwell there for a time.[T 2][T 3]
SamaelsDaughter
the arch angel ruler of 5th heaven?
SamaelsDaughter
let me find his name
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dockside
Frodo left to Valinor -- confirmed.
bradmaj
Edvard, Tolkien says mortals actually going to VAlinor would wither like a moth in a flame, being so close to the Powers. only Elves, Who are part of Arda, valar, Maiar and istari can survive there
SamaelsDaughter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael
SamaelsDaughter
this guy
bradmaj
Frodo, Bilbo, and eventually Samwise went to Tol Eeressea\
bradmaj
Which is part o the undying loands, but ISN'T in valinor itself
SamaelsDaughter
"He is considered in Talmudic texts to be a member of the heavenly host with often grim and destructive duties. One of Samael's greatest roles in Jewish lore is that of the main angel of death and the head of satans. Although he condones the sins of man, he remains one of God's servants."
dockside
Sir.
gyrus
all we know about angels is there is a michael and a gabriel
bradmaj
Edvard, he was one of teh last ones. After he gave the red booik of Westmarch to Rosie
bradmaj
So it ended up in Gondor
gyrus
everything else about angels is hidden from us, God does not reveal
bradmaj
Edvard, yes, in the return of the king
dockside
Imagine thinking Lord of the Rings is real and believing in Iluvatar.
bradmaj
anyone who ever touched the ring, no matter how briefly, would eventually be consumed with desire for it. the knowledge that it was destoyed would eventually drive them mad. The only respite would be death, or leaving middle EArth
dockside
bradmaj: You seem pretty biased against Sauron.
bradmaj
If Bilbo had stayed any longer in Rivendell, HE wold have eventually fleft and tried to get it back from Frodo. up tio, and including murdering him
bradmaj
fleft = left
bradmaj
not yet
SamaelsDaughter
samael too
SamaelsDaughter
samael is real
dockside
I think theistic stories about far away lands are pretty interesting. It shows how deeply humans think in terms of social stratification and rank.
SamaelsDaughter
wait how so
SamaelsDaughter
like how they connected im interested
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dockside
bradmaj: The nuance is whether or not you consider an island very close to a continent to be part of that continent.
dockside
Or, rather, an island very close to a large land mass that forms part of a continent.*
dockside
In the contemporary nation state structure islands near to the coasts of large landmasses control by a state are generally part of that state.
dockside
That is, they're part of that realm.
dockside
The organizational structure of Tol Eressea makes it clearly part of the realm of the Valar.
dockside
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Valinor
bradmaj
Thge point is, Tol Eressea is part of the undying lands, by direct action of Ulmo, but is NOT part of Valinor. So mortals could live out their remaing lives there in peace.
dockside
By special permission of the Valar, the Hobbits Frodo Baggins, Bilbo Baggins, and Samwise Gamgee were also permitted to go to Valinor, as they had once borne the One Ring of Sauron. Later, after the death of Aragorn, Legolas the Elf would sail to Valinor and bring with him Gimli the Dwarf.[1][2]
glkfan
https://64.media.tumblr.com/994216bbf2c4653136d6c8a4c21799ce/tumblr_omztlb03hc1rqbl96o1_400.png

bradmaj
of couse tol ereseea is part of teh undying lands. But it ISN'T Valinor
dockside
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Valinor
dockside
Valinor (Quenya; IPA: [ˈvalinor]; also Valinórë [valiˈnoːre], meaning 'Land of the Valar'), the Land across the Sea, was the realm of the Valar in Aman; the place to which they migrated after being driven from Almaren by Melkor in times before the First Age. It was known also as the Undying Lands, as Elves once dwelt there in eternal bliss, and could again later, in addition to the Ring-bearers.
dockside
"the realm"
dockside
The major city of Valinor was Valmar, where the Vanyar and the Valar resided. Two other cities were Alqualondë and Tirion, the respective homes of the Teleri and the Noldor. It also had an island, Tol Eressëa, just off its east coast.
dockside
Dispute resolved.
bradmaj
I don't hink they were "driven away by melkor"
dockside
Valinor is the administrative realm, primarily on the continent of Aman, but also including the island of Tol Eressëa.
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bradmaj
Tolkien letter 247
bradmaj
"Neither Sam, nor Frodo made it to Valinor. They ended up residing on Tol Eressa until the end of their lives to live in healing and peace. Hobbits are under the Doom of Man and that gift may not be taken away from them. However, Gimli, the dwarf, did make it to Valinor at the behest of Galadriel."
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dockside
Link?
glkfan
MissBliss https://64.media.tumblr.com/f238f50f02caacd1d4b76fc4f6511d3b/tumblr_omimpmcLZG1rqbl96o1_500.jpg

bradmaj
Tolkien letter 325
bradmaj
"As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time, whether brief or long."
MissBliss
A scale of 1-10 seems popular in hospitals.
bradmaj
Which means if they went to valinor, they would have very shortened lives
dockside
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/59d68c02c534a5079b390c38/t/5c2d3e3f575d1f37b45d4750/1546468936692/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf
dockside
Your citation is not from letter 247.
bradmaj
The sojourn of Frodo ... in Eressëa - then on to Mandos.. "Christopher Tolkien "Morgpth's Ring"
SamaelsDaughter
i think i might love this convo if i knew enough about lord of the rings
bradmaj
SamaelsDaughter, well you can still join in
SamaelsDaughter
im trying
SamaelsDaughter
im stoned and dont know eno ugh about lord of the rings but im trying
dockside
bradmaj: That citation above is not from the Tolkien Letters.
dockside
"frodo made" does not appear anywhere in the letters.
glkfan
MissBliss https://64.media.tumblr.com/0907c72c0a1426d7d6ccd3bde3ad1cec/tumblr_oubqeaZnXG1rqbl96o1_400.png

dockside
Do you work for Morgoth -- yes or no?
bradmaj
recently, or since forever?
MissBliss
glkfan: Yes! :)
dockside
Foul beast!
bradmaj
I worked for him when he was melkor
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bradmaj
does that count?
bradmaj
I was hoping for a silmaril, but never got one
bradmaj
Beren got one
bradmaj
Maeglor got one
bradmaj
Thingol had one for a while
dockside
Your last citation is from letter 325. It confirms they lived in Valinor.
bradmaj
Then the dwarves had to show up and ruin everything
dockside
Where did you get your spurious 274 citation?
dockside
247*
bradmaj
from letter 247
bradmaj
and if they went to Aman, they would have had their lives snuffed out
dockside
It is not in 247.
bradmaj
hence, as Chris tolkien says, They went from iddle EArth, to Tol eressea, to MAndos
bradmaj
Wher they still are, apparently
bradmaj
only humans can leave Arda
bradmaj
to go where, no one knows
dockside
Did you look at my link to the collected letters?
dockside
The secondary source citing 247 is incorrect.
bradmaj
dockside, I have the book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" i don't need online resources
bradmaj
but thanks for the offer
dockside
bradmaj: That is a fallacious response.
bradmaj
I'm glad you think so
dockside
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/59d68c02c534a5079b390c38/t/5c2d3e3f575d1f37b45d4750/1546468936692/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf
dockside
bradmaj: Good day.
dockside
bradmaj, associate of Morgoth, friend of Jewish witches, fell on the 258th day of the Year of Plague Fire.