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KremlumSandus

"Gender Identity in the Ancient World" Discussion

Nov 23rd, 2013
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  1. [14:05] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Let us begin.
  2. [14:05] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Alright, all.
  3. [14:05] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Welcome to the first ROMA Sande Amici discussion!
  4. [14:05] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales) whispers: sorry again
  5. [14:06] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): (not to worry)
  6. [14:06] alba.cabo (alba2685): thank you :-)
  7. [14:06] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Woo!
  8. [14:06] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back) claps
  9. [14:06] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales) applauds
  10. [14:06] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): This discussion is held on the occasion of Transgender Day of Remembrance, which was last Wednesday.
  11. [14:07] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): The discussion is specifically on gender identity in ancient and modern societies and also concludes with a discussion of where our own society ought to go on these issues.
  12. [14:08] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): There is a lot to discuss, and I have broken the discussion down into three categories.
  13. [14:08] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): (WB Lia)
  14. [14:08] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): wb Lia
  15. [14:08] alba.cabo (alba2685): welcome back
  16. [14:08] Angelia Rees: TY ㋡
  17. [14:09] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): The first section is ancient society, the second is modern society, and the third is where we go from here. I encourage everyone to speak his/her mind and present the knowledge they have on these topics. ㋡
  18. [14:09] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Let's begin. ㋡
  19. [14:09] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): My first topic is on gender as a concept in ancient Rome.
  20. [14:10] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Which, of course, many will critique because gender is a modern concept.
  21. [14:10] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): It may seem wrong to consider gender in ancient societies, but there exists much modern scholarship on the topic of gender roles and the way in which romans considered sex and gender...
  22. [14:11] Angelia Rees: Yes and no. While the ancient world didn't perceive gender the way we do, many things were *clearly* divided along gender lines.
  23. [14:11] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Indeed ㋡
  24. [14:12] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Absolutely, male, female and ...other.
  25. [14:12] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): Thought Gaius maybe has the point: roman society was so much masculine to not even consider the other gender
  26. [14:12] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): And one scholar, Janet Huskingson argues that if any non-conforming gender existed in a person, they were considered "intersex".
  27. [14:12] Angelia Rees: I'm not sure I agree with her there.
  28. [14:13] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): For instance, the Emperor Elgabalus was known for his great homosexual love that he considered cutting a vagina into himself to suit his lover.
  29. [14:13] Angelia Rees: I think Romans considered that more "insanity" rather than "intersexed" ;)
  30. [14:14] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): And he was being maligned for political reasons...
  31. [14:14] alba.cabo (alba2685): others have eunucos, eunicii, too
  32. [14:14] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): And so, the attack on his "maleness, perhaps?
  33. [14:14] Verina Tullia (fritha): yet didn't they have this kind of transsexual goddess, Venus Castina?
  34. [14:14] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): and let's not forget that Elgabalus was so hated by Senators that they wanted to describe him in the worst of ways.
  35. [14:14] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, of course, there exists a bias against people whose expression might not have been as masculine as should have been.
  36. [14:15] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): But this bias exhibits a staunch preference for masculinity, of course - something which we have in our own society.
  37. [14:15] MariusAntoninus Burum: if you check ancient roman law you note that there was a patriarchalic structure. The name of a family clan was given by the pater familias too....so in general you can say ; beeing male was beeing the dominant gender...like "farmer" cultures had
  38. [14:16] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Angelia, I would like to hear more about your views on Male/Female, as perhaps we are closer in concept that in definition.
  39. [14:16] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Indeed. Yet, there exist gender non-conforming people as well.
  40. [14:16] Angelia Rees: Female gender was nearly irrelevant, in fact. Except for the purpose of furthering families. Which is why preserving virtue of women was such an issue.
  41. [14:16] MariusAntoninus Burum: the oldest man and the oldest woman in a family had the dominant position
  42. [14:17] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Politically, yes, but useful for defining men...I think we agree that the "lens" is always male.
  43. [14:17] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yet there exist people who push gender boundaries in Rome.
  44. [14:17] Angelia Rees: Isabell - my personal views, or my views on those of the Romans?
  45. [14:17] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Romans, please.
  46. [14:17] MariusAntoninus Burum: but there is a difference inbetween real gender and sexual freedom or moral aspects
  47. [14:18] Angelia Rees: First - in Rome, your real gender wasn't under scrutiny unless you were male.
  48. [14:18] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Yes, I agree.
  49. [14:18] MariusAntoninus Burum: christianism brougt a different moral from the 3rd century you can note the difference
  50. [14:18] Angelia Rees: And you did not *have* to see yourself as cis-gendered.
  51. [14:18] Angelia Rees: But you had to behave as if you were in public nearly all the time
  52. [14:19] Angelia Rees: Males have to conform to a certain "image"
  53. [14:19] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Yes, indeed, and that was probably very tiring...
  54. [14:19] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): This is true. Huskingson argues that the Galli, Lia, are helped into Rome by the Vestal Virgins because both occupy that gender in-between.
  55. [14:19] Angelia Rees: Which one could argue is the Roman form of gender indentity
  56. [14:20] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) nods.
  57. [14:20] Verina Tullia (fritha): but the Vestals are pretty much the exception that proves the rule
  58. [14:20] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Maleness, yes, and therefore virtus as a concept is male.
  59. [14:20] Angelia Rees: It wasn't so much how you actually were, but how you were perceived that was important.
  60. [14:21] MariusAntoninus Burum: perhaps helpful to define what we start to talk about 1.) real gender roles in ancient rome 2.) moral with gender and the freedom of sexual life 3.) intragender and devine aspect of multi /transsexual biodisposition
  61. [14:21] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): And there exist Romans who push gender roles, such as Hadrian because he is considered feminine by being penetrated, if I recall correctly.
  62. [14:21] Angelia Rees: Homesexual activities, in fact, were not frowned upon, as long as they were ....
  63. [14:21] Angelia Rees: A. discrete and B. performeed with the right people.
  64. [14:21] Verina Tullia (fritha): male homosexual activities; lesbianism seems to have been frowned on
  65. [14:22] Angelia Rees: That is to say, those lower than you on "the food chain" so to speak
  66. [14:22] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): And all is wrapped in power relationships.
  67. [14:22] MariusAntoninus Burum: yes it was seen as a kind of "sports" and fun
  68. [14:22] Angelia Rees: Lesbianism as such didn't exist for the Romans tho, because of one thing:
  69. [14:22] MariusAntoninus Burum: no moral negative view as long as the "familia" was not in danger to break apart
  70. [14:23] Verina Tullia (fritha): Also I don't see how the Vestals would have made the Galli more acceptable? What's her reasoning?
  71. [14:23] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): To the Romans, power was certainly a masculine expression, hence why the Vestals were in-between genders - because they had power.
  72. [14:23] Angelia Rees: You can't have sex without a penis
  73. [14:23] Verina Tullia (fritha): no, the vestals were women, not intersex in any way
  74. [14:23] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): :-) so one must acquire one, figuratively perhaps.
  75. [14:23] Angelia Rees: And the Vestals are part of that no penis concept, strangely enough, because....
  76. [14:24] Angelia Rees: They can have power without being a threat.
  77. [14:24] Florian Lukas: this is perhaps the very original view on sex: no sex without a penis
  78. [14:24] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Verina: the Galli were helped into Rome by the Vestals. One story goes that while landing in Ostia, the ship carrying the idol of Cybele ran aground. The Vestals came to help the idol of Cybele out and help the Galli.
  79. [14:24] Florian Lukas: but it is just a hypotheisis that romans thought that way
  80. [14:24] Angelia Rees: You may need to clarify why Cybele and Her worship is important here ;)
  81. [14:25] Verina Tullia (fritha): is that a story though or actual history?
  82. [14:25] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): The Galli are important because they are male eunuchs.
  83. [14:25] Verina Tullia (fritha): In any case the Vestals weren't in Ostia
  84. [14:25] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): I would agree with Angelia that we know about how the Romans were supposed to behave in public, and that this is gendered with the male idea as most important.
  85. [14:26] Angelia Rees: It's both. The Vestals certainly supported the Cybele cult
  86. [14:26] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): They have feminine voices, were foreign...
  87. [14:26] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): The Galli would have occupied the same in-between gender expression as the Vestals, I believe, because they could be identified with the female gender
  88. [14:26] Angelia Rees: (Sidenote for those who *don't* know - priests of Cybele were often castrati)
  89. [14:27] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): does that means that all people coming from Gaul was turned to eunuchs?
  90. [14:27] Verina Tullia (fritha): I still don't see how the Vestals were intersex; they were seen as women
  91. [14:27] Angelia Rees: \Hence Gaius' implication that they fit an intersexed role
  92. [14:27] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): And Roman citizens were generally prohibited from being priests of Cybele.
  93. [14:27] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): The Galli are priests of Cybele from Phygria, Achilles
  94. [14:27] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): oh! Ty.
  95. [14:28] Angelia Rees: And Vestals might be seen as intersexed insofar as having male power and female gender
  96. [14:28] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I'm sorry, I should have explained
  97. [14:28] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): np
  98. [14:28] Angelia Rees: See - male power normally came with a male gender appendage.
  99. [14:28] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): I learned something new ^^
  100. [14:28] Verina Tullia (fritha): but what male power they had was limited
  101. [14:29] Angelia Rees: The Vestals occupy a strange in-between role
  102. [14:29] Verina Tullia (fritha): they were always under male authority, the Pontifex Maximus's
  103. [14:29] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Do you think that this explains the terrible concern for ensuring that Vestals do not have sex?
  104. [14:29] Angelia Rees: They were women, by Roman definition powerless, but they had male power conferred upon them.
  105. [14:30] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): what was their real power, Lia?
  106. [14:30] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): they for sure didn't get the imperium
  107. [14:30] Angelia Rees: Partly, Isabelle. The same as virtue for housewives.
  108. [14:30] Verina Tullia (fritha): well the reason for the virginity bit has been debated, see e.g. Wildfang
  109. [14:30] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): No, but they had political and judicial power, Achilles.
  110. [14:30] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): And, yet, such public expiations.
  111. [14:30] Angelia Rees: Who, in many eras, weilded *some* personal power
  112. [14:31] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Vestals could save a man from execution.
  113. [14:31] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back) nods
  114. [14:31] MariusAntoninus Burum: perhaps it is helpful to see a roman social structure and family awith the eyes of a FARMER
  115. [14:31] Angelia Rees: And they, and they alone, could be heard by men of power on matters of State.
  116. [14:31] Verina Tullia (fritha): what power they had may have been because they represented the state as the state priestesses
  117. [14:31] Angelia Rees: Other women had no voice
  118. [14:32] Verina Tullia (fritha): I can't agree; Servilia, Livia Drusilla, Julia? They had power and a voice
  119. [14:32] MariusAntoninus Burum: in us you could see south states farmer families similar to the ancient roman society
  120. [14:32] MariusAntoninus Burum: USA
  121. [14:32] Angelia Rees: But in general, the Vestals and the Galli are exceptions, not the rule
  122. [14:33] Angelia Rees: As Marius is trying to point out ;)
  123. [14:33] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, and this is where Marius is right. The rule is strict gender roles
  124. [14:33] MariusAntoninus Burum: the Vestal woman is keeping the fire for the family
  125. [14:33] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Indeed.
  126. [14:33] MariusAntoninus Burum: it is a servant housekeeping role
  127. [14:33] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): And vestals are an exception in the ancient world, are they not?
  128. [14:33] alba.cabo (alba2685): and family is Rome, the state
  129. [14:33] MariusAntoninus Burum: yes
  130. [14:33] Verina Tullia (fritha): yes certainly the exceptions that proved the rule
  131. [14:34] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Or the Romanitas....
  132. [14:34] MariusAntoninus Burum: and then take away christianism moral and replace it with ancient greek philosophy
  133. [14:34] Angelia Rees: As far as having some power in a generally powerless role? Yes Isabelle. Unless you discuss very ancient Egypt.
  134. [14:34] MariusAntoninus Burum: with a big freedom as second component
  135. [14:34] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yet, like in our own society, people exist who express gender in a way that is not there sex. In the same article I read, there are examples of people of one sex who express themselves as the opposite sex.
  136. [14:34] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): But ritually, also.
  137. [14:35] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales): true Gaius
  138. [14:35] Angelia Rees: There are only rare examples of that in ancient Rome tho, Gaius
  139. [14:35] Angelia Rees: Mainly because it could ruin you ;)
  140. [14:35] MariusAntoninus Burum: why?
  141. [14:36] Verina Tullia (fritha): well that we know about; I mean the historical record is surely skewed by what has chanced to survive
  142. [14:36] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): One example was of a Roman-Egyptian funeral mask of a young girl. The only way in which we know this child was a girl was because of the stock-like image she is wearing, yet she wears a tunica praetexta and has short hair that evokes young boys.
  143. [14:36] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): It would depend on social class and citizenship too.
  144. [14:36] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Precisely, Angelia.
  145. [14:36] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): It could ruin someone, as it ruined Elgabalus. ㋡
  146. [14:37] Angelia Rees: Because if you were male, portraying yourself in any way female or identifying as such was shameful. No one wants to be a woman! And females portraying as men were severely castigated.
  147. [14:37] MariusAntoninus Burum: I see
  148. [14:37] MariusAntoninus Burum: yes absolutely this i alrady read before...absolutely
  149. [14:37] Verina Tullia (fritha): I think it would be very hard to generalise. I mean by the Principate rome had a million inhabitants from all over the world
  150. [14:37] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Indeed.
  151. [14:38] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Most, if not all, granted citizenship, too.
  152. [14:38] Angelia Rees: We can only discuss this in very broad terms, it's true.
  153. [14:38] Verina Tullia (fritha): and what we know of it has only come from a maybe unrepresentative sample of ancient writers
  154. [14:38] MariusAntoninus Burum: its to observe the vita of powerful roman woman...
  155. [14:38] Angelia Rees: As we only know, as Verina notes, what has survived. But....
  156. [14:38] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): or representative of a single category of citizens, Verina.
  157. [14:38] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Or in such specific terms, with one one or two exceptional cases....
  158. [14:38] MariusAntoninus Burum: then you see HOW they could use power...sometimes hidden...but very strong
  159. [14:38] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, Isabelle?
  160. [14:38] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): What are those cases?
  161. [14:39] Angelia Rees: That having been said, it survived because there was a lot of material of that type to begin with.
  162. [14:39] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Those that you have mentioned.
  163. [14:39] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Elgabalus and Hadrian?
  164. [14:39] alba.cabo (alba2685): Salve, Coralla
  165. [14:39] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): No, the Egyptian encaustic.
  166. [14:39] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Ah, yes.
  167. [14:39] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): Salve Coralla
  168. [14:39] Coralla Mediterranea (laura.rodas): salvete amici
  169. [14:39] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): We can't KNOW what's going on there.
  170. [14:40] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales): coralla!
  171. [14:40] Angelia Rees: Isabelle is correct there. We can only surmise, based on what we already know and educated guessing
  172. [14:40] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I believe you discussed with me another time, Angelia, that Hadrian could be seen as not conforming to gender.
  173. [14:41] Angelia Rees: Yes. He's a notable exception. As is Nero, but Nero was crazy ;)
  174. [14:41] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): ehy, you not talk like that about a member of my Gens! ;)
  175. [14:41] Angelia Rees: lol
  176. [14:41] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Hadrian can be see as philhellene in his tastes,
  177. [14:41] Angelia Rees: Apologies ;)
  178. [14:41] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Haha
  179. [14:41] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That is interesting, Isabelle.
  180. [14:42] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): And so, power-wise, it's sort of ok...
  181. [14:42] Florian Lukas: Due his position he had freedom...but not without borders
  182. [14:42] Verina Tullia (fritha): but we surely can't see the emperors as typical even of the patrician class
  183. [14:42] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Even to be the penetrated one, Isabelle?
  184. [14:42] Angelia Rees: No Verina, we can't.
  185. [14:42] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): No, certainly not.
  186. [14:42] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): He's not officially penetrated.
  187. [14:42] Angelia Rees: Because as I noted to Gaius then, Hadrian would never have gotten away with it had he not been Imperator
  188. [14:42] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): He's got young lovers.
  189. [14:42] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): And perhaps there were more people amongst the lower classes who did not conform to gender roles.
  190. [14:43] alba.cabo (alba2685): Salve, Td
  191. [14:43] alba.cabo (alba2685): Ted
  192. [14:43] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Salve Ted ㋡
  193. [14:43] Verina Tullia (fritha): salve Furritus
  194. [14:43] Florian Lukas: Tedwoos welcome
  195. [14:43] Tedwood Portsmouth: Hi
  196. [14:43] Coralla Mediterranea (laura.rodas): brb a moment
  197. [14:43] Angelia Rees: The lower classes would have actually had more success with it if they did.
  198. [14:43] Angelia Rees: No one *cared* how they looked except their peers
  199. [14:44] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): And, he was in the Greek -speaking east at the time. He can get away with some things because of his relative military success.
  200. [14:44] Verina Tullia (fritha): I think it would be very hard to say what was "typical" or "ordinary"
  201. [14:44] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, though that leaves that those who do not conform to their sex's gender roles are marginalised, Lia.
  202. [14:44] Florian Lukas: Verina -> YES
  203. [14:44] Angelia Rees: But sadly, we have very little evidence from that class to prove that one way or another
  204. [14:44] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) nods.
  205. [14:45] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I know in our own society, transgendered people share a very low class often.
  206. [14:45] Angelia Rees: As they are even today, Gaius
  207. [14:45] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Gaius, indeed they would have been marginalized.
  208. [14:45] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Poverty is a large issue for members of the LGBT community.
  209. [14:45] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): if there's something that history can tell us is that whenever a person has no prejudices or is not influenced by society or religion, they just follow their 'natural instincts'. We see it nowadays anytime as well. If we consider that a person nowadays can be very libertine (at least in private), we may suppose that it was the same for the romans. When we undress ourselves we are really the same in 2013 then in 0 a.d. so we are the example of how the romans were in private.
  210. [14:45] Angelia Rees: The one thing that has not changed is this: it's never good to buck the system.
  211. [14:45] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): (sry for the poem)
  212. [14:46] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think that's true, Achilles.
  213. [14:46] Florian Lukas: sometimes if transgender are still young and look pretty they are admired like a special gods gift...
  214. [14:46] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): In Rome, Florian?
  215. [14:46] Florian Lukas: I think I am inflented by SATYRICON from Fellini
  216. [14:46] Verina Tullia (fritha): well as one told me a lot depends on whether or not you can pass
  217. [14:46] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, that's true, Verina.
  218. [14:47] Verina Tullia (fritha): and maybe that was true then
  219. [14:47] Florian Lukas: which is based on some historic facts but also very comedia
  220. [14:47] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): And I would believe it would be easier to pass if one begins their transition at a youner age.
  221. [14:47] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): *younger
  222. [14:47] Angelia Rees: It was true in brothels at least, Verina
  223. [14:48] Florian Lukas: if a roman citizan shall take another person for "serious" aquivalent...that would be a healthy male roman citizen...yes sorry but this is for sure
  224. [14:48] Florian Lukas: a very classical view on gender with woman to be protected etc.
  225. [14:49] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Isn't that like our society's view of gender, too?
  226. [14:49] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Men are expected to protect women.
  227. [14:49] Florian Lukas: imagine our western society is influented by roman society more than 50%
  228. [14:49] alba.cabo (alba2685): yes
  229. [14:49] Angelia Rees: I would venture to say that with the biological fact of binary gender, these same ideas crop up in every era of human history.
  230. [14:50] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Do you mean binary sex, Lia?
  231. [14:50] Tedwood Portsmouth: Binary sex? I or O ?
  232. [14:50] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): in italy we call that concept 'cavalierato (lordship, knight). To 'protect and serve' women when you are a man
  233. [14:50] Florian Lukas: bisexual life ?
  234. [14:50] Angelia Rees: You can't get away from the fact that biologically, women *are* smaller, weaker, less able - without extraordinary work on their part.
  235. [14:51] Tedwood Portsmouth looks at very much the most able person he knows.......
  236. [14:51] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Plato deals with that....:-)
  237. [14:51] Angelia Rees: It took much work, Teddy ;)
  238. [14:51] Verina Tullia (fritha): well maybe physically able
  239. [14:52] Tedwood Portsmouth: Don't I know it ;)
  240. [14:52] Angelia Rees: Men do not have to do much to have more physical prowess, generally.
  241. [14:52] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, that is the issue with sex. But the fact that Romans had some sort of concept for the non-conforming genders implies that gender is not binary - it can be fluid, too.
  242. [14:52] Angelia Rees: Hence these ideas spring up naturally. In compassionate men anyway
  243. [14:52] Florian Lukas: Sex was seen as fortification sports.... all kind of gender mix.... the "fun" only ended when a next generation could be in troubles...so family "duty" was to have children for the glory of future rome...
  244. [14:53] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker) nods.
  245. [14:53] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): A very "farmer" like culture, Florian, when one considers the South, as you noted before.
  246. [14:53] Florian Lukas: curious if someone can show me another concept :-)
  247. [14:53] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): The American South, that is ㋡
  248. [14:53] Florian Lukas: fitting Romans Culture
  249. [14:53] Florian Lukas: yes
  250. [14:53] Tedwood Portsmouth: And that is still present in the continuation of the Roman Empire as we know.....or the Catholic church as it is otherwise known ;)
  251. [14:53] Angelia Rees: Here's an interesting truth of Rome:
  252. [14:53] Florian Lukas: I am not a scientist...so I could be wrong :-)
  253. [14:54] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): correct, Florian, in fact many laws have been approved during the years to 'force' making children
  254. [14:54] Tedwood Portsmouth: I *am* a scientist ;)
  255. [14:54] Verina Tullia (fritha): in any case, what do we define as Rome, or Roman? Views must have been different in the north of England at Binchester than in Alexandria, in Rome, some town in the rural south of Italia or Greece or Byzantium or Ephesus
  256. [14:54] Angelia Rees: Sex could be had any number of ways, by men, for the strengthening and pleasure of men .... but.... one's first duty in sexual matters is *progeny*
  257. [14:54] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): But only the "right" kind of children, in legitimate families. It is a division of work.
  258. [14:55] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): good point Verina
  259. [14:55] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Hm... in that, Lia, it reminds me of the Greek view of sex.
  260. [14:55] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): But where does gender fall into that?
  261. [14:55] Tedwood Portsmouth: Yeah in the North of ngland they will sleep with ANYONE ;)
  262. [14:55] Florian Lukas: @ Verina...yes very important to see the periods
  263. [14:55] Angelia Rees: Even today, Teddy ;)
  264. [14:55] Florian Lukas: when christianism wake up it changed a lot :-)
  265. [14:55] Tedwood Portsmouth: Especially today
  266. [14:55] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Can people have sex to produce children and thus also express their gender?
  267. [14:55] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): though for romans roman meant of the city of Rome, the origins.
  268. [14:56] Florian Lukas: but some things catholic church adopted :-)
  269. [14:56] Tedwood Portsmouth: Ah that reminds me of the tale of the roman and the Greek arguing.......
  270. [14:56] Angelia Rees: Oh yes. At least in the Roman view, it was an extreme expression of gender roles.
  271. [14:56] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales): o_O
  272. [14:56] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): For this, I'm considering the topic of where we go as a society concerning gender.
  273. [14:56] Verina Tullia (fritha): And also over time - I mean look at how views changed between say the Elder Cato and writers of the Imperial period
  274. [14:56] Angelia Rees whispers: It
  275. [14:56] Angelia Rees: It *defined* one's role, producing children, in a way
  276. [14:56] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales): producing
  277. [14:57] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): But can one perform their sex's roles and also express their gender all the same?
  278. [14:57] Angelia Rees: I don't know that the Romans believed there was any difference, Gaius
  279. [14:57] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Or, to the Romans, was there a behavioural divide between the two?
  280. [14:57] MariusAntoninus Burum: I guess we shall remember how the USE OF POWER switched tobe more with sexual moral after beeing with HEROISM before
  281. [14:57] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Do you perhaps mean preference, Gaius?
  282. [14:59] Angelia Rees: Keep in mind, "wife" is not the most blessed female gender term in the Roman lexicon. That honour goes to "mother".
  283. [14:59] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Perhaps consider the Spartans. After producing children for Sparta, the Spartans also engaged in plenty of homosexual sex. Can the same also be true for gender non-conforming people in our own society?
  284. [14:59] MariusAntoninus Burum: greek epochs: heroes role model.... then early rome : engineers everything is possible....late roman: sex moral dictated by the pontifex
  285. [14:59] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Of course, this requires a jump from sexual orientation (Greek bisexuality) to gender.
  286. [15:00] Tedwood Portsmouth: A greek and an Italian argue about who brought more to the World.........
  287. [15:00] Tedwood Portsmouth: he Greek says "We built the Parthenon." the Italian says "We build the Colosseum." The Greek says "We came up with advanced Mathematics" The Italian says "We made the Roman Empire." The Greek is getting frustrated finally realizes how he can win the argument. "We invented sex." The Italian replies "True, true, I can't argue with that, but we thought of having it with women."
  288. [15:00] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Haha ㋡
  289. [15:00] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales): LOL
  290. [15:00] MariusAntoninus Burum: Achilles was a hero...but he would not be one in the time of late roman catholic wolrd
  291. [15:01] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): do modern societies have the same strong concept of 'doing things for motherland' then the ancient societies had? I don't think so. In modern times we are much more egoists apparently.
  292. [15:01] alba.cabo (alba2685): hahaha
  293. [15:01] MariusAntoninus Burum: ok its a little bit black/white
  294. [15:01] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I am considering gender identity here, not so much sexuality.
  295. [15:01] Angelia Rees: Teddy makes a valid point tho - not all ancient cultures thought the same about sex and gender identity ㋡
  296. [15:01] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Hm... valid point.
  297. [15:02] MariusAntoninus Burum: so moral switched because of the "mode" "fashion" and the USAGE of manipulation by the power of the authorities
  298. [15:02] Florian Lukas: ?
  299. [15:02] Coralla Mediterranea (laura.rodas): well... I need togo now... see you later or soon :-)
  300. [15:02] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Vale Coralla ㋡
  301. [15:02] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): Vale Coralla
  302. [15:02] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Thank you for coming!
  303. [15:02] Coralla Mediterranea (laura.rodas): valete amici :-)
  304. [15:02] Angelia Rees: And both sex and gender indentification were always strictly informed by the mores of the society in question
  305. [15:02] Andromeda Mesmer: I have to leave as well - sorry ...
  306. [15:03] MariusAntoninus Burum: Vale
  307. [15:03] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales): vale cora!
  308. [15:03] Tedwood Portsmouth: There are many species which indulge in homosexual sex....only one exhibits homophobia....in the end Tim Minchin has a valid pioint. We are all just monkeys in shoes.
  309. [15:03] alba.cabo (alba2685): i recalled JFK tauched us "don't ask what your country can do for you, but ask you can for your country"
  310. [15:03] alba.cabo (alba2685): vale Coralla
  311. [15:03] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Vale Andromeda ㋡
  312. [15:03] Andromeda Mesmer: Vale, Gaius
  313. [15:03] alba.cabo (alba2685): vale Andromeda
  314. [15:03] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales): friends sorry but for me is time to go also
  315. [15:03] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): we shall not confuse the moral of common people with the behaviour of heroes, Marius. Heroes were legendary figures already at their times.
  316. [15:03] Angelia Rees: I'd also like to bring up something about modern gender identity, if I may.
  317. [15:04] alba.cabo (alba2685): tought, teach*
  318. [15:04] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales): valete!
  319. [15:04] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Vale Revus ㋡
  320. [15:04] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): Vale Revus
  321. [15:04] alba.cabo (alba2685): vale, Revus
  322. [15:04] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): To wrap up this discussion, though, where do you all consider our society ought to go?
  323. [15:04] Revus Cornelivs Patavius (revo.morales): achi please check
  324. [15:05] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): i will, Vale Revus.
  325. [15:05] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): And what role or guide do these ancient societies serve us?
  326. [15:05] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): oops, too late
  327. [15:05] Verina Tullia (fritha): we can only hope towards tolerance and maybe one day
  328. [15:05] Angelia Rees: I think we need to move toward a more fluid idea of gender expression and identity. Not only because that is *true*, but because it is healthier. I have an example:
  329. [15:05] Florian Lukas: acceptance is better than tolerance :-)
  330. [15:05] Tedwood Portsmouth: If I may say Gaius, society *should* go to the point where we don't have to even talk about these issues. Or those of equality, race or any similar. WE are all just people. Doing what people do.
  331. [15:05] Verina Tullia (fritha): but it depends on the country; some countries will always be more unaccepting or intolerant than others
  332. [15:06] Tedwood Portsmouth: Achieving what people can achieve
  333. [15:06] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I agree, Verina.
  334. [15:06] Florian Lukas: @ Tedwood -> yes
  335. [15:06] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): But consider, for example, we all inhabited one country which we all recognised we created.
  336. [15:06] Florian Lukas: a culture with repression is a weak culture
  337. [15:06] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): What should the role of gender be in it?
  338. [15:07] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): And how do we get there from here?
  339. [15:07] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Angelia, you had an example?
  340. [15:07] Angelia Rees: Homo & Trans phobia. It relates in this way: it affects the gender identitiy and emotional health of hetero cis gendered males. They do not feel right, in many cases, in expressing homosocial affection (non sexual affection with the same sex). They try to live up to an unrealistic ideal.
  341. [15:07] Tedwood Portsmouth: And as a species we always achieve the greatest things with interaction and cooperation. All should be included
  342. [15:07] Angelia Rees: If more fluid gender ideals were the norm, that would cease to be an issue
  343. [15:08] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Good point, Lia.
  344. [15:08] Angelia Rees: And it really is a terrible thing for hetero cis gendered males, from a psychological standpoint
  345. [15:09] Angelia Rees: Something our ancestors never struggled so much with.
  346. [15:09] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back) nods
  347. [15:09] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Gender roles ad gender stereotypes ought to be reconsidered, yes.
  348. [15:09] Florian Lukas: oh I have this in my own company....male heterosexual managers who look "down" to the company founder as a gay boss
  349. [15:09] Verina Tullia (fritha): there are still thing that puzzle me about how various groups who you think might be tolerant refuse to accept transsexuals
  350. [15:09] Tedwood Portsmouth: I am not so sure my Love. Does it take more fluid ideals? Or just people allowed to be more secure in what they are. The thought, for example, that as a straight male I can kiss and hug a gay friend without it being seen as a homosexual act in itself
  351. [15:09] alba.cabo (alba2685): i think it should go as if everypeople are created equal, to have relationships in freedom
  352. [15:09] Florian Lukas: and I can be fair and hard...but they still look and see me differently
  353. [15:10] Florian Lukas: I guess I must continue to live with this and use my power to be their superior
  354. [15:10] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): How do we get to that point, Alba?
  355. [15:10] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): WB Lia
  356. [15:11] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Again, assume we all decided to create a society where we lived like this. How do we get there? What do we do to get there?
  357. [15:11] alba.cabo (alba2685): with lawas more respectful with individual and personal liberties
  358. [15:11] Florian Lukas: it is often not how it is...but how people see it.
  359. [15:11] Verina Tullia (fritha): I mean one thing that has always confused me is being told by someone I know who is a m-f transsexual how she is hated by lesbians and feminists. But why?
  360. [15:11] alba.cabo (alba2685): laws*Ç
  361. [15:11] Florian Lukas: prejudices and fear
  362. [15:11] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I do not know why, Verina.
  363. [15:11] Verina Tullia (fritha): because it muddies the gender identity waters?
  364. [15:12] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Hm... yes, possibly.
  365. [15:12] Angelia Rees: I don't know *why* Verina, but I have an idea about it
  366. [15:12] Tedwood Portsmouth: Should we require *laws* to enable that? Or just people in society being more tolerant. In my experience if youi start enshrining things in law like that even the neutral folk start to become reactionary
  367. [15:12] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Because they may believe it undermines their own gender identity.
  368. [15:12] Florian Lukas: because some people are feared of freedom and they think: I may not do this
  369. [15:12] Angelia Rees: Exactly, Gaius
  370. [15:12] Verina Tullia (fritha): surely as victims of prejudice ourselves we'd be more tolerant?
  371. [15:12] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Or it threatens their control of something.
  372. [15:12] Florian Lukas: yes this could be also a reason Gaius
  373. [15:13] Angelia Rees: Exactly the opposite, psychologically, Verina
  374. [15:13] Angelia Rees: The more persecuted a group is, the more reactionary they tend to be.
  375. [15:13] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Again, Teddy, assume that we are making a society that *wishes* to go to a point of gender inclusion and fluidity. Not that all people are that way, but that we are making a society for that.
  376. [15:13] Florian Lukas: you can prove it with your own way of life but it takes a long way to open their mind and hearts
  377. [15:13] Verina Tullia (fritha): doesn't say much about the gay and lesbian community, then
  378. [15:13] Angelia Rees: The current laws are crap tho.
  379. [15:13] Tedwood Portsmouth: Everyone has prejudices. They are natural to the human condition. AS I say, we are monkeys in shoes. But in civilised society we learn that he perceived "threat" of our simeon ancesotrs are inappropriate physiological responses
  380. [15:14] MariusAntoninus Burum: we are often afraid of those things we do not know
  381. [15:14] Angelia Rees: They are largely binary based. They actually go out of the way to name genders because of the human tendancies to assume only two
  382. [15:14] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): That is true, Lia. I spoke with a M-F transgender person last night who told me that the issue with the LGBT community is that the community is promiscuous and seen as such... and that as a whole we need toabstain from sex more.
  383. [15:14] Tedwood Portsmouth: Thats true too
  384. [15:14] Florian Lukas: and a whole soceity is always in a rythm....going to more liberal...followed to step back to more conservatism
  385. [15:15] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): instruction is the key. if the human knowledge can be teached to everyone, persons would become more open minded. Ignorance is maybe the worst enemy of tolerance. 'better' laws and better world would be a natural consequence. But again, in a money oriented world, that's hard to get.
  386. [15:15] Verina Tullia (fritha): well just out of interest, how are they seen by the gay and lesbian community?
  387. [15:15] Angelia Rees: True Achilles. On all counts
  388. [15:15] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): So, one way, Lia, is to not use binary genders on official and government documents.
  389. [15:15] Tedwood Portsmouth: Interestingly on that point in the northern European languages and early English the word "man" meant "person". "Woman" was a much later addition to the language to differentiate
  390. [15:16] Florian Lukas: yes
  391. [15:16] Angelia Rees: Yes. The assumption should be: no discrimination based on gender *at all*
  392. [15:16] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Indeed.
  393. [15:16] Angelia Rees: No matter what gender one indentifies with.
  394. [15:16] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): This is what I am looking for, for a discussion on "how do we get there?"
  395. [15:16] Verina Tullia (fritha): did after all the whole gay lesbian movement just produce a bunch of nasty reactionaries? I don't think so and I really hope not
  396. [15:17] Florian Lukas: Friedrich Dürrenmatt and Max Frisch wrote: De Liberty of the other peoples thinking
  397. [15:17] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): read read read read.
  398. [15:17] Angelia Rees: I think there *are* a lot of militant LGBT. I've met them.
  399. [15:17] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I think not, either.
  400. [15:17] Florian Lukas: idea of accepting other concepts as they accept ours...but adding respect on the top
  401. [15:17] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Though there may be some who are reactionary.
  402. [15:17] Angelia Rees: But the worst are often reigned in by the best
  403. [15:18] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Achilles - how do we teach?
  404. [15:18] Angelia Rees: Because militants, no matter how well intentioned, hurt our cause.
  405. [15:18] Tedwood Portsmouth: In my opinion, for what it is worth, my belief is that the best way is to assimilate into the rest of society.....the whole "I don't like .....(insert minority group here) ..... but you are ok" is very very effective. in some ways I think that actually being overtly aggressive is counter productive.....but sometimes you need to fight.
  406. [15:19] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Do you think it is helpful to continue to "think" with Greeks and Romans on this subject? Does it help or hinder?
  407. [15:19] Angelia Rees: It's a balance the entire LGBT world has been striving for for generations, Teddy
  408. [15:19] Verina Tullia (fritha): we aren't the greeks or romans though, are we. We don't see the world in their way or think like them
  409. [15:19] Tedwood Portsmouth: Of course, my Love
  410. [15:19] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I believe it helps, Isabelle, because it shows the civil strife result of toxic masculinity, as my professor calls it.
  411. [15:19] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): In the early 20th, it was seen as helpful to think with Sappho,
  412. [15:20] Florian Lukas: How do we teach is a good question
  413. [15:20] Angelia Rees: I think we need to slowly abandon all these outdated concepts of gender really. It isn't, and never was, an accurate picture
  414. [15:20] MariusAntoninus Burum: yes I was awaiting a statement from Achille
  415. [15:20] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): we have to teach people to be indipendent on their experiences. travelling the world, meeting different cultures can be a good start.
  416. [15:20] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): How, Lia?
  417. [15:21] Angelia Rees: Achilles just made a few good suggestions. I'll add another....
  418. [15:21] Angelia Rees: Stop teaching male/female duality as if it's a fact.
  419. [15:21] Angelia Rees: It isn't.
  420. [15:21] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): One interesting ideaI hav come across is the role of the Arts & Humanities.
  421. [15:21] Angelia Rees: Teach it asw one aspect of the human condition, sure.
  422. [15:22] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I we express our stories or those of others, we can teach on our own society.
  423. [15:22] Angelia Rees: But no as the norm or "the right way"
  424. [15:22] Tedwood Portsmouth: I agree there should be no teaching of "A right way"
  425. [15:22] Florian Lukas: Not as the right way but its ok to ask: Try seeing it trough my eyes , try walking in my footsteps
  426. [15:22] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back) nods
  427. [15:22] Angelia Rees: It's a poisonous idea from the start
  428. [15:22] Angelia Rees: Right, Florian
  429. [15:23] Verina Tullia (fritha): well I read that transsexuals are now in abut the same position as regards tolerance as gays and lesbians were 40 years agio
  430. [15:23] Angelia Rees: Talk more about what gender means to an individual, rather than a societal norm
  431. [15:23] Florian Lukas: I am still with the doubt: these things happens because of manipulation interests and power intersts of some groups
  432. [15:23] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Exactly Florian.
  433. [15:24] Angelia Rees: Of course.
  434. [15:24] Tedwood Portsmouth: But I also think the "mechanics" and biological facts of gender, and the state of how can I put it....this is clumsy, but What people "define" themselves as sexually are kept together just now when they perhaps shouldnt be
  435. [15:24] Angelia Rees: And passivity on the part of the people at large allows it to continue
  436. [15:24] Florian Lukas: yes passivity is a phaenomenon
  437. [15:24] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): we shall not consider money at all, otherwise we risk to stay without words, unfortunately.
  438. [15:25] Florian Lukas: a mayority report would be silence
  439. [15:25] MariusAntoninus Burum: silence of the lambs
  440. [15:25] Angelia Rees: Ultimately, people like us need to start discussion out in the world. To counter the power bases and their agendas.
  441. [15:25] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Binary gender is simple and "observable" since it is "enforced." We need to see the world as not "simple," and then live the complications.
  442. [15:26] Tedwood Portsmouth: Again...a sad statement of fact is that the majority are happy to believe exactly what they are told in the press etc
  443. [15:26] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, Lia, hence why the arts and humanities are so important for this discussion.
  444. [15:26] MariusAntoninus Burum: in ancient rome it was helpful if you trained your speakers-skills
  445. [15:26] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): But how can we encourage people to discuss? And how can we discuss it publicly?
  446. [15:26] MariusAntoninus Burum: today we have so many communication channels
  447. [15:26] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Not just one-on-one discussions, but with media reaching many people.
  448. [15:27] alba.cabo (alba2685): and internet
  449. [15:27] Angelia Rees: Soapboxing has always worked for me. ;) Tho I admit that's not in everyone's repertoire ;)
  450. [15:27] Tedwood Portsmouth: Lol
  451. [15:27] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Also, you rais e a good point, Isabelle.
  452. [15:27] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Nothing is absolute.
  453. [15:27] MariusAntoninus Burum: ah how does this work?
  454. [15:27] MariusAntoninus Burum: soapboxing
  455. [15:27] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): You can't possibly realize how much better we are doing than we were in the 1980's, over all.
  456. [15:27] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): what's soapboxing? boxing in a pool of soap?
  457. [15:27] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): :-)
  458. [15:28] Florian Lukas: slipping out on a soap and falling into a box? :-)
  459. [15:28] Tedwood Portsmouth: trouble is my Love, if you lecture to people you only reach those willing to listen. The rest will just become aggressive to the well thought arguments you put forward
  460. [15:28] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): You're right about that, Isabelle!
  461. [15:28] Angelia Rees: lol An American term for setting up in a public place and regalling willing and unwilling listerners with your opinions ;)
  462. [15:28] Tedwood Portsmouth: Actually its an English term I think youll find
  463. [15:28] Florian Lukas: @ted ...but thats how we go ahead
  464. [15:28] Tedwood Portsmouth: from Speakers Corner at Hyde Park ;)
  465. [15:28] Angelia Rees: Is it really? But you're so *proper*! ;)
  466. [15:29] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): I believe blogs, media articles, and art in general could be useful too.
  467. [15:29] Angelia Rees: Indeed Gaius.
  468. [15:29] Tedwood Portsmouth: People used to take a Soap box to stand on when they were speaking
  469. [15:29] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): But how to we encourage people to engage with these media?
  470. [15:29] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): aaahhh
  471. [15:29] Florian Lukas: ah ok
  472. [15:29] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): ehehe nice
  473. [15:29] Angelia Rees: And it's recieved better than public speaking, too
  474. [15:29] Tedwood Portsmouth: lol
  475. [15:30] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): it depends on the product which was in the box you're standing on, I suppose ^^
  476. [15:30] Angelia Rees: I think to get people to media site, use viral dissemination.
  477. [15:30] MariusAntoninus Burum: if you stand on a soap box...speak loud an clearly but do not excite to much otherwise it c......CHRRRASHHES
  478. [15:30] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): eheh
  479. [15:30] Angelia Rees: Things liked reddit, and buzzfeed, and (gods help us) tumblr
  480. [15:31] alba.cabo (alba2685): oh, that's soap boxing? the people who speak standing on boxes in Hyde park? :-)
  481. [15:31] Angelia Rees: Facebook and twitter too. Tho I hate them, personally
  482. [15:31] Tedwood Portsmouth: yep
  483. [15:31] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Or, an event like this, among friends....
  484. [15:31] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, Isabelle ㋡
  485. [15:32] Verina Tullia (fritha): I would never use twitter or facebook
  486. [15:32] Angelia Rees: No, but many do, Verina. And it's viral power can't be ignored
  487. [15:32] Verina Tullia (fritha): true and that's the problem
  488. [15:32] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): But seriously, being open is a matter of tremendous importance,
  489. [15:32] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): internet for sure helped the sharing of ''non conformist ideas'' because of the incognito status. This means that there are many persons that think something and, face to face, say something else.
  490. [15:32] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Alright, are there any other people willing to share ideas on how to organise a better, more open society?
  491. [15:32] Verina Tullia (fritha): now some bore or misogynist or troll gets thousands of readers
  492. [15:32] Angelia Rees: At least one can harass it for good for once, rather than evil ;)
  493. [15:33] Angelia Rees: But ideas, Achilles, are infectious. Eventually, such "radical" ideas become mainstream
  494. [15:33] alba.cabo (alba2685): Salve, Rag!
  495. [15:33] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Salve Rag!
  496. [15:34] Angelia Rees: Salve Raggy!
  497. [15:34] Ragark Ivlivs Tiberivs (ragark.fiertze): Salvete
  498. [15:34] Florian Lukas: sexual freedom is a human right! we should tell this to everybody....when the moment is accurate :-)
  499. [15:34] Angelia Rees: Not just sexual, personal identity is a human right
  500. [15:34] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): I agree, Lia. But some people may say ''how can I trust someone I don't know?''. Soapboxing is much more sincere then, even if the contents of the messages are the same.
  501. [15:34] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): Salve Rag
  502. [15:34] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Yes, until it becomes harmful to others.
  503. [15:34] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): (considering sexual assault, pedophilia, etc.)
  504. [15:35] Angelia Rees: Which is why I prefer it Achilles. But it has consequences. Death threats for one
  505. [15:35] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back) nods
  506. [15:35] Florian Lukas: of course..the law of respect is higher than the other concept
  507. [15:35] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): it requires much courage indeed
  508. [15:35] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): So, encourage soap-boxing for those with the courage.
  509. [15:36] Florian Lukas: intergrity of individuals is above...but valid for ALL and equal
  510. [15:36] Angelia Rees: The internet is a good medium for the average person to disseminate these ideas *without* putting themselves in harm's way
  511. [15:36] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Indeed.
  512. [15:36] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Especially with blogs and letters to the editor.
  513. [15:36] Angelia Rees: And leave soapboxing to people like me who are not afraid to have to be armed 24/7 ;)
  514. [15:36] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): soapboxing not literally, but in the concept: speaking clearly, proudly, face to face
  515. [15:36] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): It's very dangerous in real le.
  516. [15:37] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): :-)
  517. [15:37] MariusAntoninus Burum: my individual intergrity tells me: I must goto rest :-) but this discussion was helpful for me I learned and remebered some Values
  518. [15:37] Angelia Rees rally is. Carries a firearm everywhere
  519. [15:37] Angelia Rees: really*
  520. [15:37] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): Vale Marius, nice seeing you again.
  521. [15:37] Florian Lukas: ah no...firearms is a bad solution....ahhhh
  522. [15:37] alba.cabo (alba2685): good night, MariusAntoninus, vale :-)
  523. [15:37] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Vale Marius. ㋡
  524. [15:37] Angelia Rees: Vale Marius ㋡
  525. [15:37] Florian Lukas: roman gladius
  526. [15:38] MariusAntoninus Burum: :-)
  527. [15:38] MariusAntoninus Burum: bonna notte a tutti... grazie
  528. [15:38] Angelia Rees: Florian - only to protect myself from crazies who hate me. ;) I am military trained in them ㋡
  529. [15:38] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Firearms issues are a different topic... we can iscuss that another time. ㋡
  530. [15:38] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): And I except that topic to be visceral, too!
  531. [15:39] Angelia Rees: lol No doubt ㋡
  532. [15:39] Isabelle (isabelle.inkpen): Yikes!
  533. [15:39] Florian Lukas: :-)
  534. [15:39] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Alright, I'm all out of topics to discuss.
  535. [15:39] alba.cabo (alba2685): :-)
  536. [15:39] Angelia Rees: The point should be, get the ideas out. Any way one can.
  537. [15:39] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): We've made the arc I prescribed at the beginning of the discussion ㋡
  538. [15:39] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back): right.
  539. [15:39] Angelia Rees: That's the road to change
  540. [15:39] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Good concluding poin, Angelia.
  541.  
  542. [...]
  543.  
  544. [15:42] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Before, we finish completely, I would like to make a final comment.
  545. [15:42] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): If you look across the theatre, you will see a poster before the flag.
  546. [15:43] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): To finish off, I would like to conclude with a virtual moment of silence or prayer in memory for trans* people who have perished as a result of transphobia, assaults against them, and pushed to the point of suicide.
  547. [15:43] Achilles Clavdivs Bacvlvm (achille.back) nods
  548. [15:43] Angelia Rees bows head in silence a moment
  549. [15:43] Verina Tullia (fritha) bows head
  550. [15:44] Gaius Tiberius Curio (guillaume.mistwalker): Thank you, ladies, gentlemen, and non-gender conforming people for coming. ㋡
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