Backchannel Chat
tan1



msgordon 2 hours ago 1
For this online discussion, you are to comment upon the spoken discussion which will lead to various online discussions. Your online discussion expectations remain mostly the same as the spoken expectations. Since it is an online discussion, not all of the language on the "Academic Conversation" handout will be appropriate (relevant).


msgordon 1 hour ago
This is Mason typing on Ms.Gordons computer


Joe 1 hour ago
One thing that I noticed about all of these topics and what they are focusing on is that most of them are focused on a corrupt government or some form of it, and how that is affecting the people. There are definatly parallels there, especially the elections


Henry Heath 1 hour ago
I also noticed that the government seems to be the core of the corruption in all cases


Kaidyn 1 hour ago
I've noticed that a lot of people used John Stuart mill to say that he would go against the corrupt government.


Natalie 1 hour ago
I agree with Joseph, in many of these scenarios this is occurring and often the government is either getting away with it, or there isn'
t much change to stop it.


Joe 1 hour ago
I think that the reason that there are not many people focusing on Adam smith is that most of these topics from this group, as I said above, is focuced on government and capitalism is more economic


Kate 1 hour ago
In this group, I noticed that there is very little emphasis on the economy, which is interesting to me because I know a lot of the rest of us do focus on the economy. This lack of economy probably makes it easier to draw parallels in this group


Maja Desmond 1 hour ago
I also noticed that a lot of people used Mill as a theorist, which I found interesting.


Said mazaheri 1 hour ago
Yeah and as these governments become more and more corrupt, they start to seize power and therefore disagree a lot with John Stuart because the citizens' views are being ignored


Elliot 1 hour ago
I also noticed that there is a lot of oppression of the people.


Henry Heath 1 hour ago
I think that people used Mill because his opinions strongly go against those of corrupt and oppressive governments because he believes in peoples rights such as freedom of speech


Chase Stempel 1 hour ago
I find it interesting how a lot of people focussed on Venezuela but they didn't look into the inflation part too much.


msgordon 1 hour ago
One thing I noticed is that there has been a lot of focus on government and corruption but not a lot of focus on economics, as Kate said.


Maja Desmond 1 hour ago
Ya, I agree with you Kate, I also noticed, nobody really talked about the economy, much more about corruption of government.


Joe 1 hour ago
Yes I agree with Elliot, I have noticed that the events that these people are studying effect on the people from the goverment, and how the corruption effects the people


Kate 1 hour ago
I agree with Elliot and that is probably why there is a lot of focus on Mill and Marx because they both are quite against oppression.


Joe 1 hour ago
^agreed kate good point


msgordon 1 hour ago
very cool joe


Said mazaheri 1 hour ago
Henry I think a possible reason for that could be that the cost of such a strong and corrupt government focused on one official is usually rights


Natalie 1 hour ago
Josh bring up and interesting point of what conflicts of other countries see in our news, baed on what is affecting us is often what we focus on rather then whats going on as a whole.


Jack 1 hour ago
I agree with Elliot that oppression is a repeated idea especially and includes rights and individual freedoms.


Kaidyn 60 minutes ago
I also agree that people chose Venezuela because we hear more about it then we do most of the other countries.


Kate 59 minutes ago
I feel like in life, we are way more focused on what directly affects us because we just know more about it


Said mazaheri 59 minutes ago
I found it interesting that nobody has expressed whether Edmund Burke would agree or disagree with Venezuela's situation


Chase Stempel 59 minutes ago 2
In my opinion, I think Marx would be a good theorist for these places because people are being oppressed and I think it would be interesting to see a war between the oppressed and oppressors and how that would change things.


Vicki 59 minutes ago
why does karl marx seem to be the only person anybody talks about?


Maja Desmond 58 minutes ago
Ya I agree with Said Edmund Burke didn't come up very often at all, which is pretty interesting to me


msgordon 58 minutes ago
I noticed that they have been focusing more on the logistics of their countries and not on eachothers theorists.


Said mazaheri 58 minutes ago
Because his "oppressor vs oppressed" fits very well into the pattern of the corrupt seizing of control


Joe 58 minutes ago
Yes I agree, so far the discussion has mostly been focused on each of there studies and less about the theorists. I think that they should move on to more theorists pretty soon because it is very important to talk about and to find parallels between that


Henry Heath 58 minutes ago
A theme throughout history has been corrupt government this is why I think we can so easily connect theorists from hundreds of years ago to current topics


Jack 58 minutes ago
I agree with Chase because the conflict of the oppressed and oppressors is relevant in many of these countries. Whether it be economic or political.


Vicki 57 minutes ago
i think edmund burke would see Venezuela as he saw france after the revolution, as a bunch of hooligans


Natalie 57 minutes ago
I agree with Chase, Marx's theory of the bourgeoise and the proletariat would be a good topic to use because of the common theme of corruption.


Joe 57 minutes ago
Miles brings up a good pint that the gpverment effects the econimics of the country too


Said mazaheri 57 minutes ago
Henry that connects to how Karl Marx said that conflict of the oppressor vs oppressed drives history forward


Joe 57 minutes ago
*point


Kate 54 minutes ago
I think it is interesting that Jack is focusing on both the economic and political parts of Venezuela.


Said mazaheri 53 minutes ago
I actually think Karl Marx would disagree with the nationalization of the oil industry in Venezuela because it just furthers the power divide between the normal citizens and the government officials


Josh M 53 minutes ago
I think that the reason that many corrupt governments also have economic problems is because of the corruption itself. Many of the budget designed for use in infrastructure slips through the cracks and ends up in offshore banks accounts or other place, making the countries situation worse while remaining corrupt, just like in Zimbabwe.


msgordon 53 minutes ago
I agree with Kate, he took an interesting route in his essay by talking about two things rather than one.


Natalie 53 minutes ago
Jack brings up the point about how in Venezuela, Marx would agree with the government and how there is a dictator, however Marx wanted a temporary dictator and the dictator in Venezuela has not been temporary.


Said mazaheri 52 minutes ago
Natalie I agree, and it seems like despite their initial intent Dictators tend not to willingly step down when the time comes


Josh M 52 minutes ago
A corrupt government won't just 'have' an election - often it will be rigged to serve the interests of the ruling party.


Ella 52 minutes ago
I think that it is interesting that henry is focusing on Mill and Burke because they have opposite values


msgordon 51 minutes ago
Henry brings up an interesting point, about how Edmund Burke would disagree with the old dictatorship and not the government today. He didn't elaborate on that very much.


Jaymie Mitchell 51 minutes ago
To kind of challenge you Natalie he can also you those theorist to contradict the governments actions which rip up the movement.


Miles 51 minutes ago
However, Venezuela is not transitioned into a communist country yet, so there shouldn't even be a dictator yet. The working class still needs to have a violent protest against the country.


Said mazaheri 51 minutes ago
Josh, maybe this is why Stuart Mill keeps being brought up because these corrupt governments contradict his ideas of power in the government going to people and not one central figure


Natalie 50 minutes ago
Josh I agree that a corrupt government will often rig elections to have a certain person win, however often won't they portray the election to the people that it is fair, and then the people will believe that that specific person actually won.


Josh M 50 minutes ago
I think it's interesting how Elliot said that the reason Venezuela was poor because of the Bolivar- for contrast, the Japanese Yen is equal to 0.0089 USD, but is still the third largest economy in the world


Said mazaheri 50 minutes ago 2
Miles, I think rather than the dictatorship being the result of a revolution it will be the cause of it which is an interesting change


Ella 50 minutes ago
Mill and Marx seem to come up a lot


Josh M 49 minutes ago
Because it's often about the citizens wanting something they aren't getting.


msgordon 49 minutes ago
I have also noticed that Ella. Due to their similar point of view they have been used together a lot.


Said mazaheri 49 minutes ago
Josh, I think in the case of rigged election what they aren't getting is a voice


Chloe C 49 minutes ago
whenever people talk about zimbabwe they usually relate him to karl marx because of his opinion that the opressed should revolt against the opressers in a violent way which is an interesting way to look at it due to belief that violence isnt a good way to make change


Yiqing Liao Sunny 48 minutes ago
Many countries use classical conservatism to control the laws that people use to control the people.


Sarah D 48 minutes ago
many of the countries are taking away people's rights such as free speech and property so I think that is why they connect to much to Mill's ideas of liberty


Jaymie Mitchell 48 minutes ago
Josh, I agree with you when you say, A corrupt government won't just 'have' an election - often it will be rigged to serve the interests of the ruling party" its not actually fair that these elections are rigged I think thats one of the main downfalls of Zim. The leader was not chosen by the people rather the people within the government they are kind of excluding the people causing irritation.


Josh M 48 minutes ago
But if they had a voice, they would focus on things that their country needed that they didn't have - for instance, infrastructure and political stability


Kate 48 minutes ago 1
I agree with Natalie, especially because that leads to false consciousness. Marx believed that the common people need to realize their place in society before they have a revolution


Miles 48 minutes ago
Relating to Ella, Mill seems to be coming up often because their is a lot of opression in today's goverment.


Josh M 47 minutes ago
Govm't is supposed to be for the people, by the people, which is what many theorists like marx and mill argued


Said mazaheri 47 minutes ago
Josh, thats exactly the problem with excluding people from their own government because sometimes only they know what they need and their position as a citizen results in a shift of values which would change their priorities in the government


Kate 47 minutes ago
To your point Miles, I think there has always been and pretty much always will be oppression
in government


Vicki 47 minutes ago
a bit off topic, but for spain Marx would be really upset because he would definitely want a revolution. burke would probably be more okay since he was much more traditional, and likely didn't believe that women should have all the say that they have now.


msgordon 46 minutes ago
Chase brought up an interesting point about how things that the government does effect a lot of people where as things that individuals do does not. This could be why government has been brought up a lot.


Ella 46 minutes ago 4
the conflict of people vs. government is what they all seem to be focusing and connecting between their theorists


Miles 46 minutes ago
Elliot is bringing up an interesting point, Venezuela and Zimbabwe seem to have a very similar problem with their corrupt goverments and inflation.


Josh M 46 minutes ago 6
Said, often civilians don't get a voice in a corrupt government until there is a violent uprising, just as Marx theorized


Said mazaheri 45 minutes ago 2
Ms Gordon/Mason?, I agree because even if an individual causes a lot of change he/she will most likely to do so through the government


msgordon 44 minutes ago
The topic of violence in government seems to be a trend between Venezuela and Zimbabwe


Josh M 44 minutes ago
We put our lives through the medium of a government, relying on it to uphold our rights- it's the governmental contract between the people and the gov. When the gov doesn't uphold their end of the deal, as seen in corrupt governments, it results in violence


elizabeth 44 minutes ago 1
Change through the government almost always takes longer and if the government is corrupt may not be possible, which is why Marx would support the people protesting


Natalie 44 minutes ago
Henry brings up an interesting pint about how most of the theorists ideas were about government but Adam Smith's was about economy, and how many of these current events are about both of those topics.


Miles 43 minutes ago 1
An important question for this discussion seems to be is, is it the goverments fault for problems with it's economy?


Vicki 43 minutes ago
nobody has mentioned syria and how the government is violent towards the opposition, and innocent civilians too


Miles 43 minutes ago
*its


Said mazaheri 43 minutes ago 3
This might be a little bit off topic but what Elliot just said is a good point, the way that dictators often hurt and oppress their citizens works against their cause because it only increases their anger and proves the point of the revolutionaries


Josh M 43 minutes ago
The government in Syria is nonexistent. They don't even control much of the land they claim


Josh M 43 minutes ago
I agree with Said, very good job


Vicki 43 minutes ago
said, i agree but on the other hand it makes people fear their dictators


Sarah D 42 minutes ago
I agree with Miles that the corruption of government could lead to economic failure that we see in many of these countries


Josh M 42 minutes ago
I agree with Vicki, it's a double-
edged swords


Said mazaheri 42 minutes ago
Miles, I believe the reason why the government gets stuck with the blame is that the struggling economy is the result of government intervention in the economy


Vicki 41 minutes ago
socialism/marxism sounds like a good idea, but when it is actually tried to put in place, this is how it ends up.


Jaymie Mitchell 41 minutes ago
The people do not actually have a voice in the election. The people are in bad living conditions and correct me if I'm wrong but are not aware of their class consciousness, which is known as "false consciousness is a term used by sociologists, and expounded by some Marxists, to designate the way in which material, ideological, and institutional processes in the proletariat" could this be a reason why VS aren't taking action in improving their living conditions and demanding the government to make change, also in Zimbabwe


Natalie 41 minutes ago
Miles responding to your question, I think it is the governments fault for problems with the economy. However this would contrast Laissez-Faire capitalism which is when the government
has no power in the economy.


Ella 41 minutes ago 1
i agree with what Maja is saying about how Marx would urge the women in Spain to resort to violence in order to make change to society


Josh M 41 minutes ago 3
Henry makes an interesting point about how governmental violence and civilian violence clash.


Josh M 38 minutes ago 1
I think it's interesting how nobody how far has talked about propaganda and how it is used in these countries to control the citizens


msgordon 38 minutes ago 2
msgordon is back to being msgordon - FYI


Chase Stempel 38 minutes ago
Josh i was thinking of that earlier


Maja Desmond 37 minutes ago
So far Adam Smith and Karl Marx have been very popular theorists...


Jaymie Mitchell 37 minutes ago 1
I was thinking that too Josh,


Jaymie Mitchell 37 minutes ago 1
When you said "I think it's interesting how nobody how far has talked about propaganda and how it is used in these countries to control the citizens"


Chase Stempel 37 minutes ago 1
I think a lot of these countries use propaganda to maintain power and not allow citizens to revolt


Ella 37 minutes ago
I noticed that there Adam Smith has more of a presence in this discussion compared to the others


Elliot 36 minutes ago 1
I think that many countries use violence and abuse of power to stay in power


jenny van zandt 36 minutes ago
it seems that throughout all the conversations Marx has been very popular and thats probably because violence against the government by the people or vice versa has been a big problem all over the world, but especially in places we researched


Jaymie Mitchell 36 minutes ago 1
But also we have to think about how propaganda goes into one's false consciousness



Sarah D 36 minutes ago
I agree with you, Chase, but I also think that the countries use violence or subtle violence as well as propaganda to get the control they want


Joe 36 minutes ago
Good point chase, I think that this shows and based on what others were saying, that each of these corrupt goverments have the power to be able to use propaganda and influence such a great amount of people


Josh M 35 minutes ago 5
Propaganda can't directly control citizens, but it definitely has a subconscious impact on their lives and how powerful their government really is. A government wobbling on stilts, per se, can be seen as an incredibly strong force that can't be toppled, stopping them from even trying to revolt


Josh M 35 minutes ago
At least to the citizens who see the propaganda.


Henry Heath 35 minutes ago
So far I have noticed that almost everyone has said the theorists would oppose what the government is doing and how the citizens are reacting to the government


Maja Desmond 34 minutes ago
I feel like Marx has been such a prominent theorist because of his strong views that differ greatly from other theorists, therefore it fits into most of the current events, so many people want to use him, and his ideas to react to a current event.


Chase Stempel 34 minutes ago 1
Even if these countries are using propaganda, I don't think they're doing a good job which is why they are turning to violence now


Josh M 34 minutes ago
Henry, that's because all of the theorists hoped that in their version of government, the citizens would be content


Joe 34 minutes ago
I notice that more of the topics in this circle are about the economy. This is a big difference from the other two circles


Jack 34 minutes ago
I think that propaganda will only do so much. At this point a lot of these countries need to keep their power by force.


Josh M 34 minutes ago 1
I agree with Joe


Ella 34 minutes ago
I agree with you Henry, and the citizens are often reacting to the government with violence


Joe 34 minutes ago
I also noticed that in almost all topics about economy adam smith is used


Kaidyn 34 minutes ago
I agree with Jenny that Karl Marx has a big appearance because so many people are being oppressed and his theory corresponds with being oppressed very well.


Miles 33 minutes ago
Adding on too Jenny's comment, I believe Karl Marx is popular to talk about becuase is ideas are so radical that it is easy to say that Marx disagrees with the counties's govemrent.


Jaymie Mitchell 33 minutes ago
I disagree with you Josh, propaganda comes in many many forms and it does a lot to one's mind, yes they can't physically control a person but it can influence their actions and their roles within their daily lives


Maja Desmond 33 minutes ago
I agree with Joe, Economy had been a big topic in this circle, whereas the other two, Economy was rarely brought up.


Josh M 33 minutes ago
In general, Venezuela's economic viability is limited, even without their current crisis. One day the oil will run out, and they aren't currently trying to diversify their exports


Henry Heath 33 minutes ago
Joe, I believe this is because Adam Smiths opinions
focused on government intervention with economy


Elliot 32 minutes ago 1
I agree with Jack, propaganda is strong but at some point, force is needed.


Ella 32 minutes ago 5
I agree with Maja and Joe, maybe because economy has been mentioned more that is why more people are focusing of Adam Smith


Joe 32 minutes ago 4
Adding on to Kaidyn, I think Marx has a presence because for almost all of the country with a government involves being oppressed violently


Josh M 32 minutes ago
I noticed that not many people are focusing on Yemen, even though it is arguably the most violent country on the list. It is by definition a failed state and is currently in the middle of a literal civil war. There is no government


Chase Stempel 31 minutes ago
I agree with Henry, Adam Smith's beliefs were based on how much gov involvement there was in the economy and how that affected the economy


Jack 31 minutes ago
I agree with Josh. Venezuela is relying so heavily on their oil but it won't last forever. Luckily for them its the only thing keeping them afloat right now. Though they have done a lot to damage it.


Joe 31 minutes ago 5
Sunny brought up religion, which is a new topic that has not been brought up so far


Josh M 31 minutes ago 3
Joe, religion brings about ideologies which can affect how a government is run. For example, many middle eastern countries use a version of Sharia law


Henry Heath 30 minutes ago
I have noticed that Spain seems to be an outlier in discussions because of the lack of violence compared to
the other countries


Chase Stempel 30 minutes ago
Josh do you think that civil war relates to Karl Marx's belief on how the oppressed need to rebel violently against the oppressors?


Elliot 30 minutes ago
I think that Smith is being mentioned more because many people have brought up inflation and economics in general.


Joe 30 minutes ago
Yes Josh, but no one has really focused on it and brought it up in discussion before


Joe 30 minutes ago
I think it does chase, because in his mind it is just part of the violent revolution that he believes is necessary


Josh M 29 minutes ago
Because it wasn't too relevant in many of the countries (except Israel, because the Palestinian conflict is based mostly on religion)


Kaidyn 29 minutes ago 2
I found it very interesting how Sunny brought up religion and made that connect with Edmund burke and his ideas


Miles 29 minutes ago 5
Sunny bringing up religion is intresting to me becuase most of the theorists have not really pulled in religion into their ideas.


Maja Desmond 28 minutes ago
Violence, is being brought up a lot, government and people both using violence, to try and get their points across, because nothing else, they feel is working so they are resulting to violence


Josh M 28 minutes ago 3
Miles, Karl Marx was against religion in his ideas, because it contributed to false cons
ciousness


Jack 28 minutes ago
I agree with Henry. I think this is also true because the conflict is not harming anyone its just pushing for change. The country is still able to run while the protests are going on in Spain.


Chase Stempel 28 minutes ago
What do you guys all think leads to violent protests such as in Venezuela vs. Somewhat peaceful protests like in Spain?


Henry Heath 28 minutes ago
Although, John Stuart Mill did include freedom of religion in his beliefs


msgordon 28 minutes ago
Josh - Sharia law is often not used completely in nations - that some nations use parts of Sharia Law (important difference). And its not just in the middle east.


jenny van zandt 28 minutes ago
i agree miles - i think it will be interesting to see that connected to the other ideas


Jaymie Mitchell 28 minutes ago 1
Religion has not been brought up during the class discussion only when referring to Yemen which Sunny researched, John Mill would have many things to say about this, but it's interesting how Sunny connected Edmund Burke was not expecting that.


Josh M 28 minutes ago
Henry, often freedom of religion is included with freedom of expression, because it falls under thinking/believing what you want


Maja Desmond 28 minutes ago
do you guys think violence is a good method
?


Chase Stempel 28 minutes ago
yes


Jaymie Mitchell 28 minutes ago
yes


Josh M 27 minutes ago
yes


Elliot 27 minutes ago
Yes


Jack 27 minutes ago
I think it depends


Henry Heath 27 minutes ago
when under the rule of an oppressed government, yes


Ella 27 minutes ago
it depends on the situation. sometimes violence is the only way to make change in society.


Joe 27 minutes ago
A contrast that I have noticed is that people are discussing the difference in what is right, and what the theorists would believe. what I mean by that is even if something happening is brutal and horrible, they are starting to discuss whether the theorists would agree or not, and I think there comes a line where we have to think about the theorists morally.


Sarah D 27 minutes ago
It works good for the ones in power but not for the people


Kaidyn 27 minutes ago
in some cases yes, and in some cases no


Josh M 27 minutes ago
I agree, people wouldn't be violent in developed countrieis as there are ways in place to change what they want peacefully


Josh M 26 minutes ago
Violence is the only way to topple corrupt governments


jenny van zandt 26 minutes ago 5
i dont think the government should use violence against their own people but if nations are using violence to protect themselves that can be different


Henry Heath 26 minutes ago
I agree


Elliot 26 minutes ago 3
It is a good method to stimulate change in places were the government uses violence to oppress them


Miles 26 minutes ago
If the goverment is being oppressive, then protesting is really the only efficent way with dealing with it.


Josh M 26 minutes ago
Often governments use their power to stop violent riots that could harm people, is this an acceptable use of a governments power?


Chase Stempel 25 minutes ago
Sarah I agree however I believe it can give a lot of hope the people, I think in a lot of places throughout history violence has caused change which is giving people hope that it could happen again.


Joe 25 minutes ago
what do you guys think is the line for a government that is too far when trying to stop a revolution against them?


Jaymie Mitchell 25 minutes ago 5
It's a responsibility to know when to go against laws and rebel against them that's part of one's duty to better their society. It's vital to know when to resist...


Jack 25 minutes ago
I agree with Josh that there are peaceful options for more developed countries. This is generally because the government is less corrupt but not always.


Elliot 25 minutes ago
I agree with Jenny, but when the government uses force to oppress the people, the people need to fight back


Josh M 25 minutes ago
Very well said Jaymie


Henry Heath 25 minutes ago 3
I think Elliot brings up a good point in that violence seems to be the only way to spark change against violent governments


Joe 24 minutes ago
Yes violence a common theme that seems to be effective in SOME WAY, good or bad


Chase Stempel 24 minutes ago 1
Do you guys believe a democratic government helps prevent these disputes between the people and the government?


Ella 24 minutes ago 2
kate brings up a really good question - if the economies of weaker countries used capitalism, would they become stronger?


Josh M 24 minutes ago 2
yes


Joe 24 minutes ago 6
As seen in Spain, the peaceful protests aren't really working


Jaymie Mitchell 23 minutes ago
There will always be peaceful options but in some situations, they need straight action and violence is the only way to go about it


Joe 23 minutes ago
I agree jaymie


Henry Heath 23 minutes ago 2
Although, I think if protests became violent in Spain, the government would be more inclined to use violence back


Chase Stempel 23 minutes ago
I agree with Joe, and that is why violence is necessary


Jack 23 minutes ago
Though I feel like violent protests in Spain might lead to more harm then good.


Miles 23 minutes ago
For Chase's question, yes, becuase the people at least have some say in what happens in the goverment (or they should).


Jaymie Mitchell 23 minutes ago 1
That is what happened all over Europe within the factions, rebellion


Joe 22 minutes ago 2
Yes Henry, I think that's a good point because in many other countries when the people use violence against government, government fights back violently


Jaymie Mitchell 22 minutes ago 1
In the end, things were fixed.


Maja Desmond 22 minutes ago
ya, I agree with Ella, this brings up a good point revolving around, strength and weakness...and capitalism being affected by this


Josh M 21 minutes ago 2
free kurdistan