<+LloydJupiter> Question: Should christians attempt to convert others, or is it more appropriate to not intrude on others or their beliefs?
<+Sabastian> jesus never said convert
<@Akonyte> DariusArcturus Spotted dicks sounds like an interesting dessert also.
<@Ryft> Christians should not attempt to convert others. That is God's jurisdiction. Christians should, however, spread the message of the gospel.
<+Mitino> there can never be too much talk about food
<+LloydJupiter> Sabastian, ah, but Jesus himself tried to convert his first followers
<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: I think they serve that at a local tea house north of here, actually.
<+glk4>  Ryft   God does got talk to me
<@Akonyte> DariusArcturus I used alot of ginger in my stir fry
<+jasin> Ryft, like mormons do?
<+Mitino> well, if they were followers, they'd already be converted
<@ChuckWagon> time for work
<+jasin> Ryft, or how about jehovah witnesses?
<@ChuckWagon> Peace to you all, and peace to our troubled world which sorely needs it.
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<+Sabastian> some people will never convert no matter what a christian says, it has to be the lord who converts, jesus said no one can come to me unless the father draws him
<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: Ginger is one of those spices that's under-represented in western cooking.
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, so how has the christian religion spread so vastly over the generations?
<+LloydJupiter> obviously some have tried hard to spread the religion
<@Akonyte> DariusArcturus Yes, I know, And I am trying to find uses for fenugreek
<+LloydJupiter> God could not claim responsibility for the human actions that carried christianity across the globe
<+jasin> I think it matters a lot who is trying to do the converting.
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: It has spread by people obeying their Lord and spreading the gospel far and wide.
<+Sabastian> cause God revealed himself
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, is there a difference between "spreading" and "converting"?
<+Sabastian> and many realized not all christians were delusional
<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: Have you tried sprouting the whole fenugreek kernels? They're a nice touch to stir-fry.
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: Yes.
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, what is that difference?
<@Akonyte> DariusArcturus No, only leaves so far
<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: Ahh, when you come across some, give it a shot. They work very well in curries that way as well. :-)
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: "Spreading" is me telling you about the gospel. "Converting" is about you believing what I tell you.
<@Akonyte> DariusArcturus We stopped buying pork, and beef.
<+LloydJupiter> if I bring a religious text to my workplace and start talking about it so that others can become like me, is that spreading or converting?
<+jasin> Some of the worst expierences I ever had was with so called christians.
<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: What was your motivation?
<@Akonyte> DariusArcturus health
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, so it is only called converting if the spreading is successful?
<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: Ahh. :-)
<+glk4> Everybody is welcome to convert me to a religion.
<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: So more going the fish and chicken route when it comes to meat at all?
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* +DariusArcturus ponders the phrase "fish and foul" :-)
<@Akonyte> DariusArcturus Yes,
<+LloydJupiter> <@Ryft> Christians should not attempt to convert others.
<+jasin> Akonyte, what do you instead?
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: It is called conversion if the person repents of their sinful life and turns to Christ in faith.
<@Akonyte> DariusArcturus I will die before I put tofu in my mouth again.
<+jasin> Akonyte, just curious.
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, is a successful spreading of christianity causes conversion, by your own statement is that not wrong?
<+jasin> lol
<+Sabastian> LloydJupiter depends what jesus wants you to believe
<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: I've been getting a bit more adventurous with our seafood as of late as Anna and I go to a Korean market. They have all sorts of things you normally don't find in a supermarket.
<@Akonyte> jasin Instead of what?
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<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: LOL :-) Then you were obviously doing it wrong.
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<+jasin> Akonyte, beed and pork.
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: Spreading the message is successful if the message is spread. Period.
<+Sabastian> goodbye everybody
<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: Thought, granted not everyone has a taste for it.
<+jasin> Akonyte, <@Akonyte> DariusArcturus We stopped buying pork, and beef.
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, you just called it a conversion
<+LloydJupiter> <@Ryft> LloydJupiter: "Spreading" is me telling you about the gospel. "Converting" is about you believing what I tell you.
<+jasin> Akonyte, you got alzheimer's?
<+LloydJupiter> if you tell me about the gospel, and I believe it, you have converted me
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: Now read that again. And then one more time.
<+DariusArcturus> Akonyte: I like silken tofu in Miso soup and small firm tofu cubes or thin slices in stirfry.
<+ProfessorWeed> tofu is excellent if prepared correctly
<@Akonyte> jasin Well, I bought 20# of boneless chicken breasts today, three large cans of tuna and a can of Alaskian Pink Salmon
<+LloydJupiter> and yet you should not actively convert others
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: No, I do not convert you.
<+jasin> Akonyte, I see.
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, how not?
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: Conversion is between you and God alone. It has nothing to do with me.
<+LloydJupiter> <@Ryft> LloydJupiter: "Spreading" is me telling you about the gospel.
"Converting" is about you believing what I tell you.
<+LloydJupiter> that seems quite clear
<@Akonyte> jasin Keep notes, quiz om 30 minutes. :)
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: If you repeat text like that again, you will be devoiced.
<+jasin> Akonyte, well, you forget stuff you say just less then 1 minute past
<+jasin> hmmm
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: Again, my spreading the message (telling you about the gospel) is separate from you converting (you believing the gospel you heard).
<+ProfessorWeed> LloydJupiter: the bible is the one telling you and converting you. the christian would just be giving you that written form
<@Akonyte> jasin Make one more accusation and you and I are done.
<@Akonyte> jasin Homie don't play that. Better chill, check yerself.
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, you said quite clear: "Spreading" is defined by you as "telling you about the gospel". "Converting" is defined by you as "you believing what I tell you". That seems very clear to say exactly my point
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: I have successfully spread the gospel regardless if the person(s) converted or not.
<+[Shoegazer]> How is it successful then
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, but you just claimed that converting just depends on whether the victim believes in the story or not
* +mobic wonders if a hockey game is about to break out
<+Sabastian> can i have peoples opinion? would you choose wing chun or tai chi kung fu???
<+ProfessorWeed> LloydJupiter: it would be like handing you a physics textbook. If you ended up reading it and becoming proficient in it, I did not teach you physics, but I helped spread the word of physics to you so you had the chance to learn it
<@Ryft> Success is defined by achieving the purposed goal. If the goal is to spread the message, then it is successful if that message is spread.
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, and you have converted them if they believe you.
* +DariusArcturus finds it kinda interesting about Evangelism. In the "Evangelical" Churches it tends to be about actively going out and "winning souls" by "witnessing" and "preaching." In Mainline Churches it seems to be more about fostering an environment within the Church community for people who are looking to find on their own, with members of the Church community there to see to what they need.
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: So you think. And you would be wrong. And you're entitled to be as wrong as you like.
<+LloydJupiter> <@Ryft> Christians should not attempt to convert others. That is God's jurisdiction.  <-- by this line it would seem that a successful conversion is accomplished by spreading christianity. It is also apparently Gods jurisdiction
<+jasin> Akonyte, not an accusation ... it was a statement of  fact.
<@Akonyte> jasin My comments to you was as a person, not as op.
<+jasin> Akonyte, <@Akonyte> jasin Instead of what?
<+glk4> What is the best evidence Christianity is true?
<@Akonyte> jasin We are done, enjoy trolling someone else
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<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: Correct. Conversion is accomplished by spreading Christianity (see Romans 10), and it is God's jurisdiction.
<+Sabastian> if its God business to convert then all christians should not preach, God will do it all
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, so do you see the error?
<@Ryft> Sabastian: Wrong. See Romans 10.
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: I see your error, yes. But I struggle to make you see it.
<+LloydJupiter> you claim a christian should not try to convert, but a successful spreading of the gospel can end in a conversion
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, you are clearly in error here
<+LloydJupiter> I would post the lines again, but you will devoice me
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: And if that spreading of the gospel results in conversion, that conversion was a function of God's power, not simply my preaching.
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, but you are the one doing the spreading, not God
<+LloydJupiter> you are the instigator of the conversion if a person believes the story
<+Sabastian> well i better go
<+LloydJupiter> you are the converter
<+mobic> its a nice way to not take responsibility
<+Sabastian> goodbye sara_ks
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: Preaching is not some kind of magical incantation, where if I say these words to you, you'll convert. Conversion is God's jurisdiction, which he calls me to participate in by having me engaged in spreading the message for people to hear.
<@Ryft> [20:06] <LloydJupiter> you are the instigator of the conversion <--- False. God is.
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<+LloydJupiter> lets examine this as if it were a different, lets say false religion, like islam. If an Islamist spreads the word of the Koran, he is spreading his Gods word. If he gets a person to believe it, and that person changes his or her life to follow Allah, then that is a conversion. Right?
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<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, is God the instigator of a Islamic conversion?
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<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: I have no idea. I am not a Muslim.
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<@bnyfoofoo> )
<@Ryft> No. ---> [20:08] <LloydJupiter> Ryft, is God the instigator of a Islamic conversion?
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, the muslim spreading the word is the instigator right?
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: I have no idea. I am not a Muslim.
<+mobic> its a nice way to not take responsibility
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: Ask a Muslim what their view of conversion is.
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, I am asking you
<+LloydJupiter> we are talking about the terms spreading and conversion as they relate to all religion
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: I cannot tell you what the Muslim view of conversion is, because I am not a Muslim.
<+LloydJupiter> you claimed converting someone to be a christian is wrong
<+LloydJupiter> but you claimed spreading christianity is right. then you claimed that a successful spreading of christianity ends in a conversion.
<+LloydJupiter> these facts do not line up if true
<@Ryft> [20:09] <LloydJupiter> we are talking about the terms spreading and conversion as they relate to all religion <---- Then I shall bow out of this conversation, as I can speak only to conversion as it relates to Christianity
<@Ryft> False. ---> [20:09] <LloydJupiter> but you claimed spreading christianity is right. then you claimed that a successful spreading of christianity ends in a conversion.
<+PaperCup> bnyfoofoo: hi
<@Ryft> You are making a whole lot of straw out of my comments.
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, ok, lets go back to the christian terms then, may I repost your original line? or will you devoice as you have warned?
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<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: I will devoice you as I have warned. I am consistent. We both know what my original line was. Carry on.
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<+LloydJupiter> I changed to islam so that we could discuss it without me being devoiced
<@Ryft> That is unfortunate, as I cannot speak to Islam at all.
* +mobic wonders if a hockey game is about to break out . its seems very close
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, ok, I cannot continue this without reposting your claim...
<@Ryft> That is unfortunate too
<+LloydJupiter> if you make a rule that I cannot repost your claim, I cannot do anything
<@Ryft> Very weird. But okay
<+glk4> Do people ever become Christians if they never hear of Jesus or the Bible?
<@Sara_Ks> yes
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, very weird that you would make a rule that makes a penalty for me trying to discuss an issue? yes.
<@Ryft> glk4: I've never heard of such a thing, no.
<@Ryft> LloydJupiter: I have not created any penalty for discussing an issue. Your lies are rather transparent. I made a penalty for relentlessly repeating my text.
<+glk4> Then they must first meet a Christian or read a ible
<@Sara_Ks> I didn't
<@Ryft> glk4: Or an angel of the Lord, etc.
<+LloydJupiter> <@Ryft> LloydJupiter: If you repeat text like that again, you will be devoiced.
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<+glk4> Angel  met Muhammed
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<@Ryft> Hello Aminadabb.
<@Akonyte> Aminadabb Hi
<+Aminadabb> Hello Ryft
<+Aminadabb> Hello Akonyte
<+Aminadabb> Hello bnyfoofoo
<@bnyfoofoo> :) hi Aminadabb
<@bnyfoofoo> good to see you
<@bnyfoofoo> hope all is well
<+DariusArcturus> Aminadabb: At ease. :-)
<@bnyfoofoo> :)
<+Aminadabb> I will be in the area for a while DariusArcturus
<@Akonyte> bnyfoofoo Greetings, my lady.
<+Aminadabb> Yes thank You bnyfoofoo :)
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<+LloydJupiter> ty ryft
<+LloydJupiter> may you post me in pm the new rules so that I can adhere to them?
<@Ryft> Unnecessary. I told you it right here in the channel (so more than just you saw it).
<+LloydJupiter> so I can repost your text or not?
<+LloydJupiter> I would rather not discuss the rules in the open channel
<+LloydJupiter> it is also against the rules
* +Marion is listening to: Dusty Springfield - Son of A Preacher Man [02:29m/259Kbps]
<@Ryft> Then stop discussing it?
<+LloydJupiter> Ryft, ok, so I will post your claims
<+LloydJupiter> <@Ryft> Christians should not attempt to convert others. That is God's jurisdiction.
* Ryft sets mode: -v LloydJupiter
<@Ryft> For some reason, you refuse to learn.
<+mobic> or vice versa