Greg Colbourn
Update on the Kernel Project: basically, it’s gone to shit.
It has fallen into the classic irrational rationalist attractor of people leaving the group house unannounced owing money (approx. £3000 in rent and bills between them, owed to me). The violation of this most basic of social norms leads me to conclude that the Manchester (UK) rationalist community is now doomed. Now that it is regarded as acceptable, amongst those who remain, to screw people over on rent and bills, what’s to stop it happening again and again, until no one will go near the project? Such a grand vision (https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/wmEcNP3KFEGPZaFJk/the-craft-and-the-community-a-post-mortem-and-resurrection), trashed for a such a small short term gain. I’m finding it hard to believe to be honest. This blind spot when it comes to such basic game theoretical considerations involving trust, reputation and appropriate risks. Why are physical rationalist communities so prone to it? It’s so irrational.
The others - this mainly applies to Ben and Promethea (I haven’t heard from Sophia and there’s a reasonable chance that she hasn’t seen our house group chat since this all blew up) - will no doubt claim that their grievances with me justify their behaviour. I would say that none come remotely close to a justification for defecting on the basic norm of paying your fair share of rent and bills:
1. The rent. They think I’m a “cuck” because I accepted £1200/month as the asking price for 5 of us in the (4 bedroom) house, when the original listing was for £800/month, but - crucially - on the condition that there would be only 2 people living there. The landlord was very reluctant to have so many people, especially given that 5 would have been a violation of HMO regulations and he didn’t want to get into trouble with the council (in the end, due to immigration issues there were only 4 of us. But it was reasonably likely, throughout much of the tenancy, that the 5th could’ve joined). We almost didn’t get the place at all, even at £1200/month. Anyway, regardless of whether it was a good deal or not (and I think it was, given market rates - the house next door, identical in it’s layout, is rented to students at the equivalent of over £2000/month!): we all agreed to pay shares of this rent totalling the full amount at the time. Backdating a reduction because they cling to the unrealistic belief that we could’ve got a better rate is totally unreasonable. However, it’s not even a reduction that they are asking for. They are basically saying they won’t pay anything they owe me, and have made no attempt to negotiate with me.
2. Hot water. Somehow 2 weeks without hot water (during which time the electric shower in the shared bathroom was still producing it) justifies months of withheld rent. They think I should’ve tried harder to get the landlord to fix it quicker (or maybe somehow magically prevented it from happening in the first place!?). I think I did my best (it took 2 weeks because the first fix failed and the landlord had to get another engineer), and there was no reason the others couldn’t’ve bugged the landlord about it too!
3. Leaky taps. Really? £10 each worth of water wasted, max. Again they think I should’ve got the landlord to fix it quicker (it really wasn’t a priority, given the small amounts of value involved). Just because my name was on the contact, that doesn’t prevent them from liaising with the landlord too. And eventually Ben did for this as I was away for some of it.
4. Ben having a chance encounter that led to a heads up on potential issues with my house, and ultimately allowed me to negotiate £1800 off the asking price. This info was given to me unconditionally at the time, as any friend would! It is not reasonable to backdate a claim to some of the savings and regard it as fungible with rent and bills owed. If he wanted to sell me the information at the time, fine. I might’ve given him £100 for it or something (although I’m sure a lot of people would just be like “WTF dude, just tell me! I thought you were a friend!”). But he didn’t do this.
5. Renovation of my new house, that we were meant to all be moving into. I originally was hoping that this would be done by January or February. I have never done a renovation before, and this turned out to be wildly optimistic (getting tradesmen to give you a quote, let alone start any actual work, is difficult in Manchester!) We also had big disagreements over the aesthetics of how the house was to look. These are pretty irreconcilable I think. So the hoped for permanent Kernel House was taking too long, and wouldn’t be as pretty (for them) as they hoped. Treating such things as me somehow reneging on an agreement is very spurious.
6. Work. So I took Ben off the renovation job, due to the disagreements about aesthetics (basically, he wouldn’t have been happy working on it unless he could have free reign in executing his vision. Even though it is my house!) and the fact that he is very difficult to work with (questions everything, picks and choses from lists of jobs to be done. Or just doesn’t do them. If you’re paying someone to work for you, especially on manual tasks, you normally expect them just to do what you ask!*) He regards this as a loss of earnings and me breaking a “verbal contract”. Regarding the earnings: I had a list of tasks that need doing in the house, regardless of the main renovation, for weeks (months even for some), and he didn’t do any of them (see list in images below). Was probably a good £1000-£2000 worth. Regarding the “contract”: even if I officially employed him, registering him with my company, I would still be allowed to fire him! I mean, he could try suing for unfair dismissal, but I don’t think he’d get very far..
7. Giving my notice (1 month) to the landlord on the rental contract of the shared house, and daring to ask for debts to be cleared, and written contracts to be signed, if they wanted to move into my house as tenants. This is somehow “twisting their arms”. I was a bit fed up with having the thankless task of managing the rental house when all I got was bitching (see 1, 2, 3 above) and unpaid debts getting racked up. Also thought that I might as well try and earn some rent on the new house whilst waiting on the renovations to start. They were free to negotiate a new contract with the landlord of the original house, or find another place to live. They did the latter, which is fine by me (I mean, I was on the fence about having them as tenants, and wasn’t too happy living with them for other reasons not mentioned here, anyway). It would’ve been nice for them to let me know rather than just leaving me to discover an empty house when I got back from being away, but whatever. It’s them not paying their debts that is the issue.
*Ben will no doubt say some bullshit about tasks being “underspecified”. I don’t think they are. e.g.:
I mean, good God, does the man have no initiative!? And even if he really didn’t have a clue what I meant by those simple statements, he could’ve just asked for more details. He didn’t.

Eliot Redelman
Alright. It's clear you are upset. Even rationality people are only human. It's a shame that this happened. I'm sorry to hear that it's gone bad.

Malcolm Ocean
Aww, shit. Yeah, that is really disappointing to hear about and clearly quite frustrating to experience.

Greg Colbourn
I don't even care about the money. It's the ridiculous lack of trustworthyness displayed by the founder (and disciples) of a community with the stated aim of setting down roots and building a long term, multi-generational community! Really beggars belief. I think they are totally deluded if they think the project has any future now.

Linda Linsefors
"It has fallen into the classic irrational rationalist attractor of people leaving the group house unannounced owing money."

Is this a common thing?

Greg Colbourn
I've heard that it has been in e.g. New York (probably the Bay as well). See: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/stQcoPWFm9R3EixSC/notes-from-the-hufflepuff-unconference-part-1

Toon Alfrink
@Greg as much as I understand you’re trying to defend yourself, I’ve heard the story from both sides and it is not unambiguously one side’s fault
(It almost never is, but still)

Greg Colbourn
I've not seen what they posted to the Kernel group chat as was removed. What did they say?

Toon Alfrink
Not a lot. I talked to them personally

Greg Colbourn
>not unambiguously one side’s fault

You really need a pretty high bar to violate the basic social norm of paying rent and bills. With out the preservation of this Chesterton's Fence, communities based on house-shares are impossible.

As listed above, I don't think any of their grievances come anywhere close to this reaching this bar.

Greg Colbourn
But they might care to explain how they do? @Ben Harrison @Promethea Raschke

Toon Alfrink
This is not to invalidate your entire story, and I do think passing up rent is simply a dick move. I’m just saying you’re falling for a binary responsibility model, which is understandable given the emotional state you must be in. All I’m saying is that others shouldn’t fall for that, and make up their minds objectively

Toon Alfrink
I also advise you to be civil and keep a collaborative mindset if you’re taking this issue to the public

Linda Linsefors
Toon, I would not worry about that. Obviously Greg is only telling his side of the story. And on top of that, he is only telling the financial part of the story.
If some one do not keep a financial deal, there should be reputational consequences.

It is also pretty clear that at the heart of this there are more personal disagreements. But which might not be appropriate to discuss in this group.

Ben Harrison
I don't mind, Greg is welcome to tell his side

Greg Colbourn
I'm sure they'd like to hear your side too.
(note that before posting here, I gave them the best part of 2 days to sort this out in private and was just stonewalled)

Ben Harrison
We're currently sorting out a viable way to get on the internet, as I'm already almost at my 4g data limit
We were given 36 hours to pay up or else, iirc, not quite the same thing

Greg Colbourn
Get an add on? I got an extra 18GB for £5 with Three.
It wasn't pay up or else. You didn't even try to negotiate!

Greg Colbourn
[this message to our house group chat after posting in Kernel group chat and getting ejected] "Ok, I wont post to any other groups for at least 36 hours. You have a chance to redeem yourselves and not be part of the "rationalist houses with people just fucking off owing money" statistic."

Toon Alfrink
I precommit to not thinking unfavorably about either side should they choose to admit their mistakes here.

Ben Harrison
That doesn't arrive instantly, and it would require me to lose use of my phone for other purposes
I can't see the word explain or implied explanation

Greg Colbourn
The add on? Mine arrived for me within minutes.

Ben Harrison
I'd have a little trouble getting that add on given I'm not with three

Greg Colbourn
Surely the others have similar things

Ben Harrison
There is the word redeem, and promethea did explain why
Which you dismissed as nonsense

Greg Colbourn
My mistake: being too trusting of the others, and assuming that they would care enough about their own reputations for something like this not to happen.
So what was reasonable about Promethea's explanation? I've gone through the points she made above.

Ben Harrison
Part of the walkout was the way the renevation standards would reflect on me and the Kernel

Greg Colbourn
(note she made these remarks before I asked for them to redeem themselves. To me they look like weak excuses to not pay)
Ok, but that has nothing to do with the money owed. As I said, it's not the walking out I'm bothered about!

Ben Harrison
So to clarify, since there are no excuses, redeem only means pay in full?

Greg Colbourn
No, redeem could be something like "sorry we just walked out without paying. Money is a bit tight, happy to pay £100/month, but I contest having to pay x, y z". There was nothing of the sort.
I'm astonished that I have to spell this out.
Instead all I got was sniping and/or being ignored
>would reflect on me and the Kernel

This is pretty funny given the context!

Ben Harrison

Ben Harrison
Thums up was accidental, originally stuff wasn't done because of disagreements, then when the plans were shelved and it was given to me as an ultimatum

Greg Colbourn
Oh yeah, I actually offered Promethea £250 off for the 2 weeks without hot water (basically free rent for her en suite room for that period). And also asked her what she considered was a reasonable amount for her to pay (she owes approx. £2000). I was completely ignored.

Ben Harrison
I didn't do the rest because I was orchestrating the walkout, and that was far more important for the health of my project and the people in it
Believe me when I say it isn't easy to find a place as a 22 year old with little on paper income

Greg Colbourn
These things have little do with the finances of the rental house.
>it was given to me as an ultimatum
What was?

Ben Harrison
After you decided to fire me from the renovation, then rehire me at a discount to my already discounted rate

Greg Colbourn
I said you could either pay what you owed, or work off your debt. You had the option to take either one, and I know you are good for it.

Ben Harrison
To do those tasks you alledge prove my lack of initiative

Greg Colbourn
Not how I remembered it. You originally said you'd do the renovation for £10/hr as it was for Kernel, and then after disagreements we re-negotiated £12/hour as you said it would be less enjoyable.
But I can't check the house finances spreadsheet with your timesheet on it as you blocked my access to it.
(As if somehow me not being able to see the exact amounts owed would make me forget the rough amounts?)

Greg Colbourn
Another thing that is ridiculous: I am a shareholder in  @Promethea's company! That she would risk her reputation in this way is.. well, surprising.
Greg ColbournさんがDuncan Fowlerさんを追加しました。

Greg Colbourn
[Duncan once visited the Kernel and is a follower of the project]