[13-Feb-20 12:29 AM] BurntZebra#8147
what do we think about some of the new offensive threats outside of veils

[13-Feb-20 12:29 AM] BurntZebra#8147
like zigzagoon/woobat

[13-Feb-20 12:29 AM] BurntZebra#8147
woobat is probably too slow?

[13-Feb-20 12:29 AM] levi#6206
woobat's going to get 1 shot by knock

[13-Feb-20 12:29 AM] levi#6206
im not afraid of it at all

[13-Feb-20 12:29 AM] levi#6206
zigg doesnt have to deal w gastbra/foo anymore though

[13-Feb-20 12:30 AM] Quote#9846
I think ziggy is braindead

[13-Feb-20 12:30 AM] levi#6206
it was broken in gen3lc (aerow meta) too

[13-Feb-20 12:30 AM] levi#6206
hmmm

[13-Feb-20 12:30 AM] BurntZebra#8147
zig was pretty braindead in gen 7 already

[13-Feb-20 12:30 AM] Quote#9846
yeah but the meta didn't favour it like it seems to now

[13-Feb-20 12:30 AM] Quote#9846
it was too difficult to set up a lot of the time

[13-Feb-20 12:31 AM] Quote#9846
and even if you could set up you had enough around that could tank it and fuck it up

[13-Feb-20 12:31 AM] BurntZebra#8147
is it any easier to set up now

[13-Feb-20 12:32 AM] Quote#9846
honestly I'd say it's probably harder to set up but easier to sweep with

[13-Feb-20 12:32 AM] Quote#9846
if that makes any sense

[13-Feb-20 12:32 AM] BurntZebra#8147
i would probably agree with that

[13-Feb-20 12:33 AM] Quote#9846
this argument isn't great but like

[13-Feb-20 12:33 AM] BurntZebra#8147
theres the 3 normal resists that tank hits

[13-Feb-20 12:33 AM] BurntZebra#8147
then theres like timburr/spritz

[13-Feb-20 12:33 AM] BurntZebra#8147
if you keep them at 100%

[13-Feb-20 12:33 AM] Quote#9846
defog timburr alone makes veil's existence so much mroe difficult

[13-Feb-20 12:35 AM] BurntZebra#8147
yeah but i dont think everyone should be forced to run defog timburr

[13-Feb-20 12:35 AM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean we already have to run a specific answer to cutiefly

[13-Feb-20 12:35 AM] BurntZebra#8147
and a specific answer to corphish

[13-Feb-20 12:35 AM] Quote#9846
I don't think so either but it's around enough already that it's tough to just bring in veil and expect it to work

[13-Feb-20 12:35 AM] levi#6206
fog burr seems like a mediocre answer to veils just like every other fogger

[13-Feb-20 12:36 AM] levi#6206
the fact that you have to spend a turn to fog against a very threatening mon is really bad

[13-Feb-20 12:36 AM] BurntZebra#8147
it beats pix 1v1 though

[13-Feb-20 12:36 AM] levi#6206
yea that's admittedly pretty nice

[13-Feb-20 12:36 AM] BurntZebra#8147
like before

[13-Feb-20 12:36 AM] levi#6206
it also loses to some of the best veil abusers in sprit/np vull

[13-Feb-20 12:36 AM] levi#6206
though

[13-Feb-20 12:36 AM] BurntZebra#8147
pix would veil and youd drain punch

[13-Feb-20 12:37 AM] BurntZebra#8147
then mach punch and they either sack pix or go hard into vull

[13-Feb-20 12:37 AM] BurntZebra#8147
or spritz

[13-Feb-20 12:37 AM] BurntZebra#8147
w/e

[13-Feb-20 12:37 AM] BurntZebra#8147
but yeah you cant spend a turn clicking defog vs something that is setting up

[13-Feb-20 12:38 AM] Quote#9846
that's why you defog the turn something comes in

[13-Feb-20 12:38 AM] BurntZebra#8147
thats only true if you defog vs pix

[13-Feb-20 12:39 AM] levi#6206
fog burr doesnt really address at all the stance of veils being a matchup fish anyways

[13-Feb-20 12:39 AM] BurntZebra#8147
like bringing scarf vull+gastly to deal w/ webs in gen 7

[13-Feb-20 12:41 AM] Quote#9846
I think veil is a pretty shitty matchup fish if it's not pix using it

[13-Feb-20 12:41 AM] Quote#9846
and if we were to decide between apix and veil itself I would strongly recommend apix

[13-Feb-20 12:42 AM] levi#6206
are we discussing the brokenness of the strat rn or the element to ban

[13-Feb-20 12:42 AM] Quote#9846
We need to figure out both, honestly.

[13-Feb-20 12:43 AM] Quote#9846
Though I imagine we'll end up doing both at the same time.

[13-Feb-20 01:07 PM] LilyAC#7887
i think its super early to consider an apix ban

[13-Feb-20 01:08 PM] LilyAC#7887
we havent tried it and it might not even be good

[13-Feb-20 01:11 PM] brewfasa#4532
agreed

[13-Feb-20 01:12 PM] brewfasa#4532
esp when sure, u don’t want to be running it every team

[13-Feb-20 01:12 PM] brewfasa#4532
but Defog timb is probs the single biggest counter to veil we’ve had

[13-Feb-20 01:13 PM] brewfasa#4532
pure ho builds are also ravaged by a solid amt of stuff

[13-Feb-20 01:31 PM] hongli#4483
i agree about veils maybe being too soon to ban

[13-Feb-20 01:32 PM] hongli#4483
i think zig is still kinda broken though, regardless of veils

[13-Feb-20 01:32 PM] hongli#4483
like w dig memento support, you can ensure that it has a free setup as well w.o even needing to run veils

[13-Feb-20 01:33 PM] hongli#4483
also with regards to fog timburr, what is timburr coming in on on a veils team?

[13-Feb-20 01:34 PM] hongli#4483
in a 1v1 sure it can fog vs apix, but it's not like it's switching in vs her

[13-Feb-20 01:34 PM] hongli#4483
or any other veils sweeper besides like scraggy

[13-Feb-20 01:34 PM] hongli#4483
and veils teams can just opt to not use scraggy then

[13-Feb-20 01:40 PM] brewfasa#4532
ye we shouldn’t be lumping zig in with veils

[13-Feb-20 01:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
but just theorymon wise I don’t see how zig will be balanced

[13-Feb-20 01:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
and wdym about pix vs Timburr? If they’re blizzarding your switch in that means they’re not veiling lol

[13-Feb-20 01:42 PM] brewfasa#4532
It’s obviously not an auto win but it’s not a stretch to say it’s the best answer we’ve had ever

[13-Feb-20 01:44 PM] hongli#4483
you don't even have to blizzard the switch

[13-Feb-20 01:44 PM] hongli#4483
you can just blizzard on the fog

[13-Feb-20 01:45 PM] brewfasa#4532
and Mach is doing almost 100%

[13-Feb-20 01:45 PM] brewfasa#4532
1/16 to actually Ohko

[13-Feb-20 01:46 PM] hongli#4483
and also

[13-Feb-20 01:46 PM] hongli#4483
moonblast 2hkos w hail chip

[13-Feb-20 01:46 PM] hongli#4483
unless min rolls

[13-Feb-20 01:47 PM] brewfasa#4532
yes u need moonblast to 2hko

[13-Feb-20 01:47 PM] brewfasa#4532
not exactly the move pix is throwing abt

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
in most matches

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] hongli#4483
do you mean it's not a good move to run

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
I’m js I don’t get ur point, are u saying timb doesn’t help

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] hongli#4483
what else are you going to run

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] hongli#4483
with no hidden power

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] hongli#4483
i mean

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
what no lol

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] hongli#4483
timburr does help yes

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
it’s probs the best

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] hongli#4483
im saying

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
thing to run in 4th

[13-Feb-20 01:48 PM] hongli#4483
it's not a good answer overall though

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
it is thi

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] hongli#4483
since it can't really switch in safely at all

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
tho*

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
it can lol

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] hongli#4483
it switches in once and removes veils once

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] hongli#4483
what do you do the next time

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] hongli#4483
apix comes in

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] hongli#4483
also

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
the entire point of beating veils it’s beating it before it beats u

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] hongli#4483
if you just veils

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
limiting it like that

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] hongli#4483
on the timburr switch

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
helps a shit ton

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] hongli#4483
and moonblast twice

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] hongli#4483
timburr's already dead

[13-Feb-20 01:49 PM] hongli#4483
if it tries to fog

[13-Feb-20 01:50 PM] brewfasa#4532
We dealt with veils last gen and now we have Defog timb

[13-Feb-20 01:50 PM] brewfasa#4532
was literally my point

[13-Feb-20 01:50 PM] brewfasa#4532
it is better

[13-Feb-20 01:50 PM] brewfasa#4532
than what we had

[13-Feb-20 01:50 PM] brewfasa#4532
in a perfect scenario u are right

[13-Feb-20 01:50 PM] hongli#4483
i disagree

[13-Feb-20 01:50 PM] hongli#4483
but okay.

[13-Feb-20 01:50 PM] brewfasa#4532
Timburr isn’t a 100% answe

[13-Feb-20 01:50 PM] brewfasa#4532
what are u disagreeing about lol

[13-Feb-20 01:50 PM] brewfasa#4532
like idgi

[13-Feb-20 01:51 PM] hongli#4483
your implication that

[13-Feb-20 01:51 PM] hongli#4483
we are better prepared to deal w veils this gen

[13-Feb-20 01:51 PM] hongli#4483
than last

[13-Feb-20 01:51 PM] brewfasa#4532
I’m not saying the entirety of lc is better equipped

[13-Feb-20 01:51 PM] brewfasa#4532
I’m saying Timburr may help

[13-Feb-20 01:51 PM] brewfasa#4532
because Defog helps it’s case and makes it a very good pix answer

[13-Feb-20 01:53 PM] brewfasa#4532
for example, simply not having sashbra probably hurts beating veils

[13-Feb-20 01:53 PM] brewfasa#4532
but it doesn’t take away that Defog Timburr is the single best mon we’ve had at combating it theoretically

[13-Feb-20 02:31 PM] Coconut#8762
timburr is the only good mon we have

[13-Feb-20 02:31 PM] Coconut#8762
that is equipped to beat veils

[13-Feb-20 04:08 PM] Shrug#7659
now up to 35% unironic about banning scald

[13-Feb-20 04:39 PM] levi#6206
What changed for that ratio to increase wtf

[13-Feb-20 04:46 PM] Shrug#7659
just got burned again

[13-Feb-20 04:46 PM] Shrug#7659
every time i get burned it goes up

[13-Feb-20 06:14 PM] brewfasa#4532
once it hits 100% i think we have no choice but to ban it

[13-Feb-20 06:14 PM] brewfasa#4532
keep us updated

[13-Feb-20 06:14 PM] Coconut#8762
can we stay on more serious topics

[13-Feb-20 06:14 PM] Coconut#8762
like ziggy or alolapix