Khalifate (full) - 11-12-30

	Changed the alignment of the Jundi from lawful to liminal. To balance this change:
		Increased the melee attack of the Jundi from 5-3 to 6-3
		Increased the ranged attack of the Jundi from 5-3 to 6-3
	Changed the alignment of the Monavish from lawful to liminal. To balance this change:
		Increased the HP of the Monavish from 41 to 46
		Increased the melee attack of the Monavish from 7-4 to 9-4
	Changed the alignment of the Mighwar from lawful to liminal. To balance this change:
		Increased the HP of the Mighwar from 53 to 58
		Increased the melee attack of the Mighwar from 8-5 to 10-5
	Changed the alignment of the Muharib from lawful to liminal. To balance this change:
		Increased the melee attack of the Muharib from 6-4 to 8-4
		Increased the ranged attack of the Muharib from 6-4 to 8-4
	Changed the alignment of the Batal from lawful to liminal. To balance this change:
		Increased the melee attack of the Batal from 8-4 to 10-4
		Increased the ranged attack of the Batal from 8-4 to 10-4
	Changed the alignment of the Hakim from lawful to liminal. To balance this change:
		Increased the melee attack of the Hakim from 6-2 to 7-2
		Decreased the cost of the Hakim from 18 to 17
	Changed the alignment of the Tabib from lawful to liminal. To balance this change:
		Increased the melee attack of the Tabib from 7-3 to 9-3
		Increased the HP of the Tabib from 38 to 39
		Decreased the cost of the Tabib from 35 to 33
	Changed the alignment of the Rami from lawful to liminal. To balance this change:
		Changed the damage type of the Rami's melee attack from blade to impact
		Increased the melee attack of the Rami from 4-2 to 5-2
		Increased the ranged attack of the Rami from 6-3 to 7-3
		Decreased the XP requirements of the Rami from 40 to 32
	Changed the alignment of the Saree from lawful to liminal. To balance this change:
		Changed the damage type of the Saree's melee attack from blade to impact
		Increased the melee attack of the Saree from 6-2 to 7-2
		Increased the ranged attack of the Saree from 7-4 to 9-4
		Decreased the XP requirements of the Saree from 70 to 56
	Changed the alignment of the Jawal from lawful to liminal. To balance this change:
		Changed the damage type of the Jawal's melee attack from blade to impact
		Increased the melee attack of the Jawal from 7-3 to 8-3
		Increased the ranged attack of the Jawal from 8-5 to 10-5
	Did various balance changes to the Arif line:
		Increased the sword attack of the Ghazi from 12-2 to 13-2
		Increased the sword attack of the Shuja from 15-2 to 12-3
		Increased the sword attack of the Khalid from 10-4 to 11-4
		Decreased the shield bash attack of the Shuja from 12-2 to 11-2
		Increased the Mudafi's melee attack from 12-2 to 15-2
		Increased the Rasikh's melee attack from 13-3 to 14-3
	Did various balance changes to the Khaiyal line
		Increased the spear attack of the Faris from 26-1 to 29-1
		Changed the spear attack of the Mufariq from 26-2 to 44-1
	Did various balance changes to the Qanas line:
		Increased the HP of the Qanas from 45 to 48.
		Increased the HP of the Hadaf from 54 to 57
	Miscallenous changes:
		removed dependency on FLY_MOVE and FLY_DEFENSE to make it standalone

Changelog and comments:

Hakim: liminal, damage to 7-2 (6-2), gold to 17 (18) <---
Jundi: liminal, both damage to 6-3 (5-3) <----
Monavish: liminal, hp 41 -> 46, damage to 8-4 (7-4) <--- changed to 9-4
Muharib: liminal, both damage to 8-4 (6-4)
Qanas: no change(?) <--- 3 extra hp to both units
Rami: liminal, melee to mace, mace to 7-2 (4-2), bow to 7-3 (6-3) <-- 5-2 mace and xp lowering (or even 5-2 sword sounds better)
Saree: liminal, melee to mace, mace: (7-2) 8-2, bow to 9-4 (7-4) <-- 7-2 mace should be more logical
Tabib: liminal, melee to 9-3 (7-3) <--- also added an extra HP (might wanna add more actually)

level 3:

Jawal: liminal, melee to mace, mace to 9-3 (7-3), bow to 10-5 (8-5) <-- 8-3 mace looks more logical
Mighwar: liminal, sword to 10-5 (8-5), hp to 58 (from 53)
Batal: liminal, both weapons to 10-4 (from 8-4)
Hadaf: no change(?) <--- see comments

Arif line balance:

Ghazi: sword to 13-2 (12-2) <---
Mudafi: spear to 15-2 (13-2) <---
Rasikh: spear to 14-3 (13-3) <--- 14-3 seems to be enough
Shuja: sword to 12-3 (15-2), shield bash to 11-2 (12-2) <-- the logic behind this is gradul progression (extra strike for damage)
Khalid: sword to 11-4 (10-4), shield bash to 12-3 <-- to go with RIPLIB

Khaiyal line change (20-1 / 6-3 -> 29-1 / 9-3 -> 44-1 / 14-3) Level 1 seems to need smth extra. Better resists?

Ideas:

Mixed fighter on skirmisher line. What to do about it?
Is falcon neutral?
Mixed horseman: best of two movetypes? Make them Neutral?

Costs altogether (esp level 2/3's, not very important for now)?
Qanas line = usage: archer? (typo in cfg?)
Mudafi: spear to 15-2 (13-2) <--- went with dauntless + 13-3, 10-1 javelin slow (need good sprite/weapon name). looks cool and useful

TBS+CSARMI messages

Comments:

Changing damage type of Rami line seems to be uncalled for and gives them too much impact. Also, it is not sure that making them essentially a mixed fighter (from an archer) is a good idea, they have enough of that already.
We had some ideas with Cackfiend. XP decrease to wolf level. 7-2 sword/6-3 bow. 5-2 sword/6-3 bow + XP. 5-2 sword/7-3 bow. 5-2 mace/7-3 bow.
I have my doubts about Monavish, I don't feel people would want to pick that on levelup.
Another idea about Ghazi line is to give Mudafi a ranged attack with slow.

The Black Sword wrote:
	My Thoughts:

	Lvl 1
	Hakim and Jundi seem fine to test out IMO, slight buff to the two of them and I'm not sure if the Jundi won't need another nerf but I think we could see how it goes.

	Csarmi:
	Yes I think Jundi is strong. This change doesn't make it much stronger by the way. All it does is fix his melee and ranged damage at 5 during bad periods (it was 5 and 4 previously). No matter if he is strong or not.

The Black Sword wrote:
	I'm not sure about Rami, doing 5-3 ranged damage, the same as the jundi for most turns, seems quite weak to me. I'd prefer trying out 8-3, drakes may be problematic, clashers do quite a lot of counter damage though. Sword adds a bit more variety to mace but if the attack is small(with 8-3 ranged) then the mace wouldn't be a problem. This seems quite a tough decision to me. If 8-3 is ruled out I like 5-2, 7-3 + reduced xp.

Csarmi
	Currently, I prefer 5-2, 7-3 and reduced xp. It would add some diversity. I'm not sure abut the mace. Noy says this unit was supposed to use a mace but it makes the lineup more boring. Also, a 5-2 mace is 6-2 with strong, 7-2 vs undead which is considerable. Their ranged pierce is low against them, however.

The Black Sword wrote:
	Any chance of fixing the almost unusable Khaiyal? Resistances, price drop or 7-3 mace would be nice.

Csarmi
	Sure. But how would you boost them? 7-3 mace is very strong vs undead (again), isn't it? 12-3 at day with strong. I find them useful already. What they do lack is resistences, in my opinion? What are your thoughts?

The Black Sword wrote:
	Lvl 2
	I don't know about the Muharib, 8/6/6 on both ranged and melee seems very stong for what is already one of their best lvl 2s. Perhaps leave the melee at 7-4, still leaves a 50% chance of getting strong and having the 2 attacks the same?

Csarmi
	If Jundi doesn't get 5-3/6-3,Muharib shouldn't get 7-4/8-4 either. It just wouldn't look thematic. Maybe we could nerf them somehow?

The Black Sword wrote:
	Monawish should be 9-4 IMO and I like the hp buff. That should make him a viable choice vs Muharib. If you have to, I'd drop the hp before leaving them at 8-4.

Csarmi
	I agree. I can't see why I would choose him.

The Black Sword wrote:
	Qanas, ok, I'd like to see a small hp increase.

Csarmi
	I'll look into it. What do you think about switching its alignment to neutral or giving him best of the two other horseguy's movetypes (it should be some sot of crossbreed, isn't it?)

The Black Sword wrote:
	Faris, 29-1 is nice, tbh I'd go higher :wink: . I'd also like to see some hp for him.

Csarmi
	The theme was to be just a bit higher than thunderer and to have the same damage on the two weapons if strong. It looks so nice, I wouldn't wanna change it. Will see about the hp. Maybe we should increase Khaiyal's hp as well? Or the resist of both units?

The Black Sword wrote:
	Ghazi should be at least 14-2 and Mudafi at least 16-2. Mudafi would still need something else then I think, possibly a higher attack, I was thinking of giving him dauntless perhaps?
	Seriously, these guys cost 18g and a lot of xp to level, compare them to any standard lvl 2s with much cheaper lvl 1 counterparts and they suck.

Csarmi
	I like dauntless. We need to consider them as leaders too. Cackfiend thought 14/16 would be too high for some reason. I would up the spear and the sword. I like some extra ranged attack (say a slowing pilum, any idea for a weapon?) with the same stats.

The Black Sword wrote:
	You guys were talking about problems in the UD matchup, I haven't found that to be the case. Perhaps check my WTT game with Rigor for a good reference. Generally adept heavy works quite well because the khalifate units are so expensive.

	Don't really feel like thinking about the lvl 3s atm. :)

Csarmi
	Yes kf units are very expensive. Well I don'T know, way too few games have been played so far.

Csarmi vs Cackfiend chat:

Cackfiend: so which units are going to be liminal?
server: Optos has logged into the lobby
csarmi: and spammibng lobby is bad
csarmi: Hakim
csarmi: Jundi line
csarmi: Rami line (the shooter variant)
csarmi: maybe falcon but not sure yet (not my decision)
csarmi: I can list you what stat changes we came up with so far
csarmi: Hakim: liminal, damage to 7-2 (6-2), gold to 17 (18)
csarmi: Jundi: liminal, both damage to 6-3 (5-3), Monavish: liminal, hp 41 -> 46, damage to 8-4 (7-4), Muharib: liminal, both damage to 8-4 (6-4)
Cackfiend: wow jundi are getting a buff?
Cackfiend: arent they already op spamming them vs certain races?
csarmi: well you can buff them or nerf them
server: Optos has logged into the lobby
csarmi: I was for making them 5-3 melee 6-3 ranged
Cackfiend: yes
Cackfiend: that sounds fine
csarmi: but Noy didn't like the idea of split damage
csarmi: we can always nerf them back ofc
Cackfiend: problem with 6-3 melee is if theyre strong and then its dusk/dawn they become 9-3
csarmi: yes
csarmi: his already happens ofc
server: Optos has logged into the lobby
csarmi: this
Cackfiend: oh theyre currently 6-3?
csarmi: no
Cackfiend: then how does it already happen
csarmi: now they got 6/5/4
csarmi: hmm maybe I cant calc?
csarmi: wait
server: Optos has logged into the lobby
csarmi: I think we'rve got a misunderstanding here
csarmi: this is how liminal works:
csarmi: now Jundi does 6/5/4 damage (day/dusk/night)
Cackfiend: ya
csarmi: they would do 5/6/5
csarmi: 6/7/6 if strong
csarmi: liminal = unchanged damage at dusk, -25% at day/night
Cackfiend: thats if u do nothing to them
Cackfiend: er
server: Delano has logged into the lobby
Cackfiend: i thought liminal was +25% dmg at dusk/dawn
Cackfiend: no?
csarmi: or shall I call it twilight? dunno these english words
csarmi: is there a common phrase describing dawn/dusk
csarmi: no
csarmi: = dam at dusk/dawn
csarmi: -25% otherwise
Cackfiend: oh
Cackfiend: wow
csarmi: so no change would mean 20% buff
Cackfiend: ok i understand now
Cackfiend: basically liminal is a huge nerf
csarmi: now with Jundi we could make them either 5/6/5 or 4/5/4
Cackfiend: so you need to buff each unit
csarmi: from 6/5/4
csarmi: yes
Cackfiend: interesting
csarmi: Hakim went to 5/7/5 from 7/6/5 (nerf)
csarmi: Jundi 5/6/5 from 6/5/4 (slight boost)
server: teles has logged into the lobby
Cackfiend: slight nerf atually
csarmi: my idea was to make them like footpad, melee = ranged-1
csarmi: why nerf
Cackfiend: 5/6/5 = 16 and 6/5/4 = 15
csarmi: because at day they wouldn't be able tosupport attack?
csarmi: thats why it is boost
csarmi: 16 gt 15
Cackfiend: oh
Cackfiend: i got it backwards
Cackfiend: thought the 2nd one is what its going to be
csarmi: 6/5/4 to 5/6/5
Cackfiend: gotcha
Cackfiend: hmm
csarmi: now the level 2's had to be changed too (they do matter because of leader)
Cackfiend: well of course
Cackfiend: but focus on the lv 1's first lol
csarmi: yea
csarmi: Rami: liminal, melee to mace, mace to 7-2 (4-2), bow to 7-3 (6-3)
csarmi: that's a huge difference
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Cackfiend: so the idea is that since these units are now -25% in 4 of the 6 turns, you need to basically increase their power by 25% to balance that out so that during dawn/dusk theyre actually more poweful than they are now
Cackfiend: i think i understand now
csarmi: Noy says sword was a mistake they were supposed to have mace
csarmi: by 20%
Cackfiend: so both the horse units are gonna have impact damage>?
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csarmi: 120+120+90+90+90+90 = 125+125+100+100+75+75
csarmi: seems so
Cackfiend: thats not very diverse
csarmi: he says sword wasn't intended
server: gracz has logged into the lobby
Cackfiend: thats silly
Cackfiend: going with the race, they had curved swords to be able to swing from horse back
Cackfiend: scimitars...
csarmi: well their sword damage wasn't very useful so far anyway
Cackfiend: of course its only 4-2
Cackfiend: thats garbage
csarmi: yes but it gets boosted to 7-2
csarmi: and thats a different story
csarmi: problem was this:
csarmi: now they had 7/6/5
csarmi: wecould make them 7-3 and that is a nerf to 7/5/5
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csarmi: which makes them seldom any better than Jundi on ranged...
csarmi: or make them 8-3 and that is 8/6/6
Cackfiend: are rami staying 16gp?
csarmi: well I can argue for scimitar ofc
csarmi: they are supposed to
server: Optos has logged into the lobby
Cackfiend: i just think its dumb to have that many impact units for one race
csarmi: or do you think they should have a different cost?
csarmi: yes me too
Cackfiend: with 3 impact units, +8 healer, and a melee/ranged fire units id hate to be undead
csarmi: well attacking that horse would suck
csarmi: 7-2 melee impact is no joke
csarmi: so you think that the the Rami line shuld stay blade
csarmi: and maybe the mixed fighter level 2 horse too?
csarmi: i don't get it how they fight with mace from horseback anyway
Cackfiend: sorr was afk
csarmi: how wuld you like a Ramiwith 7-2 blade and 7-3 bow?
csarmi: or would 5-2 blade 8-3 bow be better? problem is that 8-3 bow is very powerful
Cackfiend: 6-3 bow from horseback is fine
csarmi: it would be dusk/dawn only though
csarmi: well 6-3 at day/night, 8-3 at dusk/dawn
Cackfiend: the 4-2 blade should be raised to 6-2 blade imo
csarmi: do you think 6-2 blade 8-3 bow would be too strong?
Cackfiend: yea 5-3 at day and night and 6-3 at dawn/dusk is still good, and the unit is getting a big melee buff
Cackfiend: yes waaaay too strong
Cackfiend: plus the elvish scout already has 2 big bow shots
csarmi: well 6-3 bow wuld be out of the question
Cackfiend: if you want a unit with some diversity keep it to 3 archer shots from horseback
Cackfiend: it is currently 6-3 bow...
csarmi: that is worse than Jundii
Cackfiend: the units currenyl gets 4-2 melee and 6-3 bow
csarmi: yes but they change to liminal
csarmi: and Jundi is 6-3 axe 6-3 bow liminal
csarmi: you have to make them at least 7-3 bow and that's already a nerf
Cackfiend: ok so jundi is getting their bow changed but melee is staying the same, so the unit is getting nerfed?
csarmi: now 7/6/5 would be: 5/7/5
csarmi: as things stand now Jundi would get 5-3/5-3 boosted to 6-3/6-3
Cackfiend: oh my bad
csarmi: but even if they were boosted to 5-3/6-3
Cackfiend: i was looking at a strong one LOL
csarmi: the Rami is in a strange situation
Cackfiend: jundi are khalifates all-around unit with great movement speed
csarmi: yes 6 moves
csarmi: nasty footpad 2.0 with armor
server: Lim has logged into the lobby
Cackfiend: yea
csarmi: Rami is the horse guy with 4-2 blade 6-3 bow currently
Cackfiend: they seem op vs some races
csarmi: 7 moves
Cackfiend: yes
csarmi: and not really sure how to change them
Cackfiend: anyway i dont see whats the big deal with the horse bow dmg
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Cackfiend: 7-3 would be too op
csarmi: it is 7-3 now
Cackfiend: no hes 6-3 right now
csarmi: youi're still not thinking liminal :)
csarmi: yes now it is 7/6/5
csarmi: if you keep it at 6 damage then it's 5/6/
csarmi: boosting to 7 = 5/7/5
csarmi: boosting to 8 = 6/8/6
Cackfiend: yea but what im saying is
Cackfiend: 5/6/5 is fine since you're buffing his melee big time
csarmi: they would be dominated by Jundi in every respect
csarmi: except that 1 move difference
Cackfiend: give the more hps or something then
Cackfiend: jundi have 32 and rami 34
csarmi: would you ever want to buy a Rami for 16g when you could geta a Jundi that has better damage in every respect
Cackfiend: or lower their xp requirement
Cackfiend: so they only need 2 kills if intelligent to level
Cackfiend: like every other scout unit
Cackfiend: theres other wayts to make units diverse
csarmi: would 7-2/7-3 be to powerful?
csarmi: what is the current usage of Rami?
csarmi: scout?
Cackfiend: yes
Cackfiend: its their dmg output scout unit
csarmi: they are best archer currently too though
Cackfiend: falcons are terrible on some maps and vs certain races
csarmi: or gold can be lowered to 15
Cackfiend: maybe khalifate shouldnt have a dedicated archer unit
server: Lim has logged into the lobby
csarmi: i like xp better
Cackfiend: as of right now they need 22xp if intelligent
Cackfiend: lower that to like 18 like an elvish scout
Cackfiend: raise their melee
Cackfiend: and keep archery the same
Cackfiend: keep gold the same
Cackfiend: and i think they should be a very good unit
csarmi: melee to 7-2 would mean
Cackfiend: you just run the risk of them getting spammed vs certain races if theyre too good all around
csarmi: 5-2/5-3 inbad ToD
csarmi: well they can't hold villages
Cackfiend: do khalifate get a unit that gets 50% in forest?
csarmi: the problem is that they would be changed completely from archer to all-rounder
csarmi: they dont
server: DAMIANO has logged into the lobby
csarmi: falcon has 60% :)
csarmi: all the others including horses have 40%
Cackfiend: ive seen them get owned a lot because they dont have a unit that can hold a forest hex
server: DAMIANO has logged into the lobby
Cackfiend: and since theres generally more forest than hills on maps due to elves being garbage outside of forest
Cackfiend: it doesnt bode well for khalifate lol
csarmi: yes
csarmi: well on Sullas for example
Cackfiend: maybe give jundi 50% in forest but take 3mp to get there?
csarmi: there is a forest next to every village
csarmi: dunno
csarmi: well at least theiir horse can deny forest
csarmi: with 40% def
Cackfiend: ah yea good point
csarmi: better than nothing
Cackfiend: they dont get 30% there
Cackfiend: thats fine then
Cackfiend: back to rami
Cackfiend: if you go from 4-2 and 6-3 to 7-2 7-3 it just seems like a big boost
csarmi: Noy said they had mace sprite but I dont see that
csarmi: well ranged nerf
csarmi: melee boost
Cackfiend: its a big melee boost though
Cackfiend: and jundi are goiung from 5-3 5-3 to 6-3 6-3?
csarmi: yes that was Noy's idea of compensating for ranged nerf
csarmi: yes
csarmi: but ofc they can be made 6-2/7-3
csarmi: or even 5-2/7-3 and lower xp
Cackfiend: 5-2 is crap
Cackfiend: unless its impact
Cackfiend: brb
csarmi: it could be impact
Cackfiend: back
Cackfiend: so anyway
Cackfiend: the problem with them going 8-3 is they would be op vs drakes
Cackfiend: cuz that would be 6/8/6 which is 7/9/7 vs most drake units
Cackfiend: so basically i think
csarmi: yes?
Cackfiend: hold on
Cackfiend: thinking about it now lol
csarmi: maybe 5-2/7-3 and lower xp?
Cackfiend: if theyre going to be swords, then have them be 7-2 6-3 but if theyre going to be make them impact then go 6-2 7-3 ?
Cackfiend: hmm
Cackfiend: im not sure
Cackfiend: but 8-3 ranged is out of the question
csarmi: yes I think so too
csarmi: what about 5-2 impact 7-3 bow and lower xp? overpowering?
Cackfiend: think with 7-2 slashing is they are 5/7/5 but if theyre strong theyre 6/8/6 which is really big vs certain units
csarmi: yes
Cackfiend: if hes Strong and Intelligent yes its op :P
csarmi: that would be 10-2
csarmi: vs outlaws
csarmi: they already have a fire all--rounder
csarmi: and that JUndi
csarmi: too many all-rounder units are a problem no?
Cackfiend: vs outlaws they would dominate hardcore if strong
Cackfiend: 6/8/6 would be 8/10/8
csarmi: scary
Cackfiend: jundi is their all around unit
Cackfiend: and yes more than 1 is bad
Cackfiend: so the rami needs to be good vs some stuff and bad vs others
csarmi: well Naffat has low hp at least
csarmi: but 8-2/6-3 i think?
Cackfiend: correct
Cackfiend: and thats fire damage
csarmi: yes
Cackfiend: its OP vs undead imo
csarmi: well they're quite unique i dont think they'll be changed
csarmi: no idea how to change them acftually
Cackfiend: the only counter undead has is adepts
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Cackfiend: well naffat are required vs woses
Cackfiend: to make naffat unique they would just need melee fire... since orc archer already has ranged fire
Cackfiend: to counter wose retal you could give them blunt resist instead of -10%
Cackfiend: but htye would need a hp boost too i think
Cackfiend: i dunno, noy seems pretty set on keeping that unit with melee and ranged fire
csarmi: yes
Cackfiend: it should have 2 melee dmg types, fire and something else imo
csarmi: well Jundo culd get ranged blade instead
Cackfiend: lol
csarmi: that would help vs woses too
Cackfiend: well then dwarves should get ranged impact :P
csarmi: yup :)
Cackfiend: they should take the hammer melee away from dwarf fihters and give it like a 4-2 ranged hammer throw!
csarmi: dwarves shuld geta firethrower for thunderer :)
Cackfiend: lol
csarmi: 18-1 pierce 4-4 fire
csarmi: so what about the Hakim?
csarmi: has 6-2 melee now
csarmi: and heal
csarmi: i thought changing them to 17g wouldnt be a bad idea
csarmi: they would have a unit on 17g finally :)
csarmi: and 7-2 melee is a slight nerf
Cackfiend: hm
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Cackfiend: sounds good to me i guess
Cackfiend: i just dont know how i feel about a +8 heal lv 1 unit ....
Cackfiend: seems incredibly OP vs non poison races
csarmi: well it doesn't cure at least
Cackfiend: but it def adds diversity
csarmi: yes
csarmi: well non-poison races are the lawful ones
csarmi: except dwarves
Cackfiend: as far as the Khaiyal (terrible name btw) if youre going to give the Rami impact then something needs to change with him
Cackfiend: cant have 3 units with impact melee..
csarmi: well the idea is that all horses have maces
csarmi: but I'll try to convince Noy to keep that blade
Cackfiend: 3 impact units and a fire/fire unit is just too op vs undead
csarmi: not that it REALLY matter if it is low damage anyway
Cackfiend: not to mention the melee marksman
csarmi: hmm maybe it does
Cackfiend: how would undead hold a lone
Cackfiend:  line
csarmi: dunno
csarmi: ghoul i suppose
csarmi: undead seemed to have trubles vs khalifate
csarmi: in the games i sawú
Cackfiend: yes
csarmi: at least Jundi are somewghat less effective there. somewhat
Cackfiend: ghouls are gonna get owned by arifs too though
csarmi: well marksman is not magic
Cackfiend: yes i realize that
csarmi: my Arifs miss just fine :)
Cackfiend: but ur gonna have a 33hp ghoul being able to be attack from 3 hexes
Cackfiend: it has to have a decent shot of defending
csarmi: aha
csarmi: and 10-2 coming
csarmi: maybe 11-2
Cackfiend: arifs are going from 9-2 to 10-2  or 11-2?
csarmi: not to mentin the naffat
csarmi: what are ghoul resists?
Cackfiend: um
csarmi: arifs arent changed
Cackfiend: 10% fire
csarmi: but they have grunt damage if it helps your thinking
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Cackfiend: 10% blade
csarmi: 11/9/7 and 12/10/8
Cackfiend: 30% pierce
Cackfiend: are arifs liminal?
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csarmi: lawful
Cackfiend: oh
Cackfiend: interesting
csarmi: and naffat too
csarmi: and Khaiyal
csarmi: falcon undecided
Cackfiend: lol are u kidding me
csarmi: probably stay neutral
Cackfiend: ur gonna have arifs and kaffat be lawful?
Cackfiend: and then 3 liminal units with impact?
Cackfiend: LOL
csarmi: not me :)
Cackfiend: poor undead
csarmi: well only two
csarmi: Jundi has no impact
Cackfiend: hakim khaiyal and rami?
csarmi: we could give them a 6-3 hammer though if you like
csarmi: Hakim, Jundi, Rami = liminal
csarmi: Khaiyal, Naffat, Arif = lawful
csarmi: falcon = liminal
Cackfiend: 6-3 hammer would be way more diverse compared to other races
Cackfiend: since that doesnt exist
csarmi: then 7-2 hammer :P
csarmi: kidding anyway Jundi is good enough
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csarmi: r maybe 5-4 hammer they're quick
csarmi: well yea poor undead
Cackfiend: lol
csarmi: so how that setup wuld play you think?
csarmi: the half liminal half lawful
Cackfiend: over all i do like the diversity of khalifates abilities, but balancing them is another story
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Cackfiend: sounds way too op vs UD, which they already dominate in the current state
csarmi: undead issue needs to be looked at for sure
Cackfiend: brb
csarmi: what about other races?
csarmi: kay
Cackfiend: well tbh
Cackfiend: when 1.10 comes out
Cackfiend: and they start 1.11 beta
Cackfiend: they should include khalfiate in it and then just people need to test it
Cackfiend: i think they should go from 1.9 to 2.0 though
csarmi: they wont
csarmi: and yes they'll have to be tested
csarmi: the plan is now to keep them about as balanced as they are now
csarmi: which won'T be an easy thing with liminal
csarmi: I got some ideas on level 2's too
csarmi: Monavish: liminal, hp 41 -> 46, damage to 8-4 (7-4), Muharib: liminal, both damage to 8-4 (6-4)
csarmi: well it was Noy's take actually
csarmi: my idea was to boost Monavish hp if their melee is nerfed
Cackfiend: im not even going to begin trying to figure out lv 2 changes
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csarmi: do you think someone would choose 8-4 melee skirmisher over 8-4/8-4?
Cackfiend: dont you think it would be a better idea to have all of khalifates units liminal
Cackfiend: rather than half lawful?
Cackfiend: it would solve the UD problem
csarmi: i dont know
csarmi: but its not my decision either
csarmi: i like the half lawful/half flavour wise
csarmi: okay if you dont want  to figure level 2's just one question
csarmi: what damage do you think would be normal for the Arif level 2's? now there is the 12-2 marksman blade 10-1 slow guy and the 12-2 spear guy
csarmi: which is obviously stupid and obviously bpth two low for level 2 esp. as leader
csarmi: hello Mint
Cackfiend: sec
Mint: hi
csarmi: feel free to share yur thoughts
Mint: well my thoughts on melee marksman is it is either way weak or way OP
csarmi: no, we will not delete Khalifate :?)
csarmi: why OP?
Mint: you don't remember them cause they never existed in the first place. :)
csarmi: whats better in melee marksman
Cackfiend: well if the arif is staying lawful i dont see a reason to change their lv2 at all
Mint: better in?
csarmi: well the spear guy with 12-2 spear firststrike is a joke
csarmi: esp. as a leader
Mint: they are weak power vs more units, but the light foots are so screwed when there is an arif around
csarmi: as in ranged marksman r ranged magic
Cackfiend: well vs the loyalist pikemen...
Cackfiend: they have 20% less pierce but 20% slashing
Cackfiend: but -10% blud
csarmi: i thought about boosting blade to 13-2 marksman and spear to 15-2 fs
csarmi: pikeman has 10-3
Cackfiend: i could see 14-2 as pierce i guess
csarmi: 15-2 too much?
Cackfiend: well then thats 30 dmg potential just like a pikemen
Cackfiend: why not just make them the same unit
Cackfiend: :P
csarmi: huge difference between 19/15/11 AND 17/14/11
csarmi: what is pikemen hp?
Cackfiend: 55
Cackfiend: 3 less
csarmi: these have 58
csarmi: i find the 12-2 blade a bit lacking too
csarmi: not sure though, marksman is great on a leader
csarmi: but compared to 9-4 marksman ranged
csarmi: actually 15-2 would be 38 damage at day 22 at night and pike has 36 at day 24 at night
csarmi: not to mention different number of strikes
csarmi: my other idea was 12-2 spear 10-1 ranged slow
csarmi: and that would be a nice simmetry with 12-2 blade 10-1 melee slow
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Cackfiend: nota bad idea
Cackfiend: so i made a post on the forums about buffing loyalist bowman
Cackfiend: since orc archers are like twice as good now
Cackfiend: twice as good as the loyalist bowman i mean
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Cackfiend: and some dumb mod quoted the change log that showed the nerf to bowman and then it showed a buff to them that was later nerfed...
csarmi: i didnt understand actually
csarmi: what was the point of that
Cackfiend: of my post or his post?
csarmi: i mean what matters is the unit NOW
csarmi: his
Cackfiend: yea exactly
csarmi: but bowman ws mixed fighter earlier
csarmi: went to an archer
csarmi: you want to put back to mixed fighter?
Cackfiend: yes but they got overnerfed
Cackfiend: and ever since hardly anyone uses them
Cackfiend: nah just from 4-2 to 5-2
csarmi: why not make them low xp to level
Cackfiend: nah then you're taking the 1 weakness away from loyalist
csarmi: instead of melee boost
csarmi: well you would spam archers then?
Cackfiend: 6-2 was too OP before because strong meant 9-2 at day
Cackfiend: 4-2 was an obvious overnerf
Cackfiend: 5-2 is where it needs to be
csarmi: i think it would be interesting
csarmi: to have a single loyalist unit that levels easier
Cackfiend: they need to do that or change something with the orc archer
Cackfiend: yes but the only weaknesses loyalist have are they have no flying unit and all their units take 2.5 or 3 kills to level...
csarmi: make it 29xp
Cackfiend: and loyalist are already regarded as the most powerful
csarmi: meh cant calc
csarmi: not sure what xp's are on loys now
Cackfiend: all their units except merman i think need 3 kills to level if int
Cackfiend: merman i think are 2.5?
Cackfiend: yea merman need 20 xp
Cackfiend: if intelligent
csarmi: well make bowman the same?
Cackfiend: that would be ok i guess
Cackfiend: right now intelligent bowman need 22xp
csarmi: buw what would you like to achieve with making bow stronger?
Cackfiend: or 2.75 kills
Cackfiend: to see them actually used?
Cackfiend: theyre terrible vs orcs
csarmi: 2 kills and 6 shots
csarmi: well lowering xp would make people use vs orcs?
csarmi: or 5-2 melee?
Cackfiend: either
Cackfiend: but the melee is a better option imo
Cackfiend: ,since like i said
Cackfiend: loyalist weakness is they need lots of xp to level
csarmi: but if you make them 5-2 melee
csarmi: who cares
Cackfiend: exactly
csarmi: they still do shit retal to melee
Cackfiend: its a tiny buff
csarmi: so why would i buy them more vs orcs
csarmi: i do love longbowman leader vs orc though
Cackfiend: well if theyre strong they can then do 7-2 at day
Cackfiend: which means theyre not free targets for grunt at day
csarmi: are they now?
Cackfiend: yes
csarmi: 6-2 is free?
csarmi: or 5-2
Cackfiend: better option than attacking any of the other loyalist unit thats attacking your front line at day :P
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Mint: cack; the problem is you haven't called it balance ideas for 1.9.x :)
Cackfiend: the fact is theres a reason you barely see loyalist bowman used since the nerf in 1.5
csarmi: make them 13g
Mint: the bowman is actually quite a good unit already though
Cackfiend: well them stoppin all balance idea changes for 1.9 is dumb
csarmi: it isnt
csarmi: they want to put 1.10 out
csarmi: for that they need string freeze
csarmi: not sure why the hurry however
Cackfiend: yea considering all the problems with 1.9 still
Cackfiend: i mean the water isnt evfen fixed yet, wtf
Mint: /me remembers the 1.8.0 disaster
csarmi: what water?
Cackfiend: um the water edges
Cackfiend: looks TERRIBLE in 1.9
csarmi: well i didn't notice that
Cackfiend: i cant stand ity
Cackfiend: bbl
Mint: and the ford looks like water with a heap of crap in it :/
csarmi: another question. Is it only my feeling that 8-4 skimisher is much worse than 8-4/8-4 no skirmisher?
csarmi: would there be a rason to level into the former?
csarmi: reason
csarmi: or want it as a leader
Mint: that skirmisher is so useless
csarmi: well as things stand now it would be even more useless
csarmi: wouldn't even have higher melee damage than the non-skirmisher guy
csarmi: I like skirmisher on leader however
csarmi: i need to go soon anyway, tx
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