Tad Guest Judgement - Tri Tier Finals

Hey folks it’s me Tad here as a guest judge. I actually participated in this up to R3 but I never went up against either Fem or Corv so it’ll be neat to gauge their teams.


##Fem Teampost:
- I’m familiar with manga Samus. Strong punch, strong roll, strong + fast gun.
- Origin is cracked. Fast robot, sharp sword, fine dura.
- Zazie looks cool. Metal busting strikes, BIG guns, FAST guns. Also aimbot.

##Corv Teampost:
- Speed of Sound Sonic moves at the Speed of Sound. Shocker.
- I know Shishio. Cut fast flame sword kill man. Solid scaling dura too.
- Creed busts stone, shreds metal, lifts cars, missile times, eats hits.

##Samus vs Sabretooth:

Fem 1:
- Samus’s gun is strong. Can charge to be stronger.
- Samus has heat + freeze thermal attacks.
- Samus explosives strong.
- Samus combos her ranged offense.
- Corv argues Creed doesn’t dodge when he thinks he can tank.
- Marvel lasers are shit compared to Samus’s, so he’ll try to tank. Doubly true because Creed is drugged - impairs his judgement.
- Samus gun fast. Creed can’t close before he’s shot.
- Samus gun big knockback. Creed can’t close.
- If he closes, Samus can grab & pummel him. Lifting contest.
- If she’s forced into unfavourable melee, she is agile and can use morph ball + bombs to get away.
- Samus fast. Samus morphs fast.
- Samus durable. Creed’s blunt strikes won’t put her down.
- Creed’s claws can cut Samus, but she can dodge because he’s an unsubtle fighter, claws have to get through armour before they can cut Samus, and rounded armour is awkward to cut.

Corv 1:
- Creed has mad endurance.
- Evidence for Creed resisting energy attacks.
- Creed can flex out of the ice ray. He’s already fought Bobby. Knows what he’s dealing with.
- Creed’s healing outpaces burning. He’s also dealt with pyrokinetics.
- Literally eats explosives.
- Creed dodges energy beams and is good at dodging too.
- Creed is relevant to fast Marvel characters.
- Creed’s claws are long and sharp. He can shred Samus in one go. Fem ceded Samus’s piercing res.
- Creed can feign death after the first hit that lands to get the drop on Samus. He likes doing this.
- Samus turns her back on opponents once she thinks she’s defeated them.
- Creed’s sense of smell - he knows she has a freeze ray, bombs, and isn’t a robot.
- Reiterating Creed uses his claws well.

Fem 2:
- The energy dura for Creed is fake - he’s incapped longer than insinuated.
- Reminding that Samus can charge shots to deal more damage than base shot.
- Explosion dura hrmmmmm surface area.
- Other dura downs or hurts him.
- Mislinked Samus missile speed feat.
- Reiterating Samus does combos. Even if he can break out of freezing, she’ll use the time it takes to charge a second shot.
- Creed antifeats, consistently clowned on by Wolverine who he’s supposed to scale to.
- Context dismissing other scaling to fast people.
- Reiterating Samus fast.

Corv 3:
- Context for supposed dura antifeats.
- Album dump of Samus standing next to downed enemies shows she’s never had to deal with someone playing possum before.
- Context for Creed’s losing fights.
- Creed’s speed scaling is real.
- Opponent never addressed Creed’s solid blunt dura and the fact that he can take lots of hits.
- Samus isn’t lethal to Creed, Creed is lethal to Samus.

##Origin vs Shishio:

Fem 1:
- Origin is the bullet timingest bullet timer.
Mislinked feat for “can react to close range gunshots”
- Shishio only dodged a speed relevant attack once.
- Shishio’s fights are slower than Origin’s by the timeframe they take place in. Ergo, he’s slower.
I grasp this argument conceptually but I’m not entirely buying it.
- Origin’s sword cuts bulletproof metal, and Shishio’s sword easily chips. Origin cuts his sword.
- Shishio has no piercing res, and Origin goes straight for bisection.
- Massive dump of Origin’s super-senses. Immediately detects the fuel for Shishio’s fire tricks.
- Shishio’s fire isn’t particularly hot - probably won’t make Origin overheat.
- If Shishio stabs Origin it does nothing. If he severs limbs or bisects, Origin can still fight.
- Origin could sense Shishio’s own overheating problem and just run away until he combusts.
- Shishio has no answer to Origin’s stealth mode - he can hide from him.

Corv 1:
- Shishio speed defense. The variant of the technique Shishio dodges is probably even faster than the base move, which is > rifle shot.
- The “Shishio’s fight takes 10 minutes’ argument is dumb because Origin has multi-minute fights too vs lesser numbers of opponents.
- Antifeat for Origin - doesn’t blitz Gons who can be dodged by normal humans.
- More speed evidence for Shishio. Scales above 13ms striking, Reasserting ZS > Gaotetsu, Shishio FTE.
- Shishio getting tagged is not a speed antifeat, it’s him showing off how little they hurt him.
- Shishio’s blunt damage output >>> Origin’s strength/dura. Shishio overpowers him.
- Shishio’s sword cuts stone and even if he couldn’t cut Origin, the impact his swings carry would floor him.
- Antifeat for Origin’s Katana failing to cut a normal sword, getting wrecked in a clash.
- More evidence Shishio’s sword holds up to big damage:.
- Shishio & Origin probably have comparable overheat time limits.
- Origin can’t wait out Shishio’s time limit because it’s based on exertion.
- Origin has flammable machine fluids in his body Shishio can ignite.
- Fire probably hotter than 200 degrees.
- Origin overheats after a short exchange with weaker opponents.
- Big ol’ guypost that Shishio’s shonen nonsense would fuck up Origin, whose setting obeys physics.
- Shishio overpowers Origin in their first exchange, and then beats him down before he recovers.

Fem 2:
- Shishio is human. Origin is a robot. Different limitations.
- Origin is still faster. FTE is fake, 13ms punch is minimal movement.
- Even his scaling to Gaotetsu is fake since a second Gaotetsu hits him.
- If Shishio hits origin with his sword, it would just cut through him, not impart the impact of his striking strength.
- Context for Origin’s sword breaking.
- Origin can slice around Shishio’s block.
- Origin’s sword is flexible, and will bend instead of break on impact.
- Origin’s battery instantly heats to 250 C without issue. Shishio’s fire is worthless.
- Origin will constantly attack at rapid speeds without slowing down, forcing Shishio to heavily exert himself to keep up and as a result, drastically run down his timer.
- Shishio will immediately tip Origin off that he’s not a normal human by his high internal temperature and faster than human movements.
- Shishio is unprepared to fight someone like Origin who has lots of tricks.

Corv 3:
- Shishio’s fights take a long time because he talks at the protagonists. He has no reason to talk to Origin, who he doesn’t know.
- Gon gets dodged by normal humans. Marvel has antifeats, so does shorter media. Don’t need to be fast to tag Origin.
- FTE calc for Shishio is perfectly fair. Not cherrypicking peak human reactions.
- Language used very specifically states Shishio’s movements were too fast to see.
- The observer was intently watching him move.
- Shishio tests peoples’ strength in the scans of him getting hit. That’s why he laughs and insults them after.
- Origin’s dura has not been substantiated enough not to get oneshot.
- Force transfer is real.
- Origin will engage because he doesn’t get to metagame and know about the timer.

##Zazie vs Sonic:

Fem 1:
- Zazie can tag supersonic opponents.
- Big dump of Zazie being good at shooting fast people. Uses traps + unpredictable firing patterns.
- Sonic no piercing res. Gets shot = dies.
- Zazie, like Origin, is fine with being impaled/losing limbs. Sonic’s sword only scores metal.
- Zazie can tank Sonic’s explosives.
- Zazie only needs to hit once. Sonic needs to hit a lot without being touched.

Corv 1:
- Zazie only tags supersonic fighters who fight dumb. Sonic fights smart.
- Sonic can stop on a dime and quickly change his momentum. Rakan can’t turn well.
- Even though Zazie fights Rakan, she is still much slower even taking advantage of his wide turning.
- Zazie can’t even dodge reflected bullets. How can she dodge Sonic?
- Sonic is good at dodging. Dodges blitz of mach speed punches.
- Antifeat for his sword is untrue - metal he scores holds up to building busting impact.
- Even if Zazie shrugs off limb loss, limb loss makes it harder for her to dodge subsequent cuts.
- A near grenade hit KOs Zazie. Sonic’s bombs blow up bigly.
- Also they detonate too fast for mach speed people to react to.
- Zazie tags Rakan sometimes but misses most of her attacks. Same but worse applies to Sonic.
- If Zazie raises the shield to block Sonic’s bomb, she’s lost---blinds herself leaving open to attack.
- Sonic is skilled. Uses afterimages to fuck with opponents who can track him.
- Zazie has a tough time against Rakan, so Sonic will logically just overwhelm her with no time to set up traps.

Fem 2:
- Rakan isn’t an idiot. He fights effectively. He moves weird to throw people off.  Is skilled.
- Zazie is a very good markswoman.
- Sonic has never demonstrated the ability to block/dodge hails of gunfire while also advancing.
- Sonic is a cocky fucker who is easily bated by challenges and doesn’t even go mach speed to start fights because he underestimates opponents.
- Human speed henchmen can react to Sonic.
- Sonic needs to close to do anything. He can’t close without being shot.
- Even if he closes, it doesn’t guarantee a kill because Zazie can dodge or make them glancing blows and Sonic’s cutting power is shoddy.
- Sonic’s bombs are irrelevant. Zazie shoots them out of the air.
- Sonic’s afterimages are irrelevant. Zazie can fight while blind and deaf.
- Zazie being slower than Sonic is offset because she needs to make smaller movements to pull a trigger than Sonic to swing a sword.
- Zazie does actually react to the bullets Rakan reflects---she covers herself with her kevlar coat.
- Zazie can simultaneously shoot and set traps because she has multiple arms.
- Zazie plays range, keeps Sonic dodging, and kills him when he tries to close.

Corv 3:
- Zazie bullet shadow speed feat is fake. She uses two guns.
- Shooting the 40mm grenade is done w/ a shotgun buckshot cloud, no aim involved.
- Tagging Rakan in the one feat is surprising him with extra arms.
- Some correcting misconceptions on arguments. Rakan wasn’t 10 ft away.
- Zazie senses wouldn’t help with afterimages since he physically occupies those spaces he just moves fast.

##Result:

Edward wins.

But since he’s not participating…

Corv wins.

Samus vs Sabertooth:

Sabretooth wins.

While Samus has solid damage output at range, Corv substantiated Creed’s general tankiness and ability to deal with heat/ice well enough that I don’t see her able to use it to put him down in any reasonable amount of time. Only a fully charged shot would probably significantly hinder his ability to fight and while some of Creed’s scaling was shaky, I bought enough of it, especially to Wolverine’s consistent arrow timing, to believe that he can and does tag Samus if he closes. Corv provided a reasonable inroads for him to do so either by dodging or with the possum trick---and the substantial evidence it’s not something Samus would see coming from downed foes. Samus has no real defense against his claws and so all it really takes is one good swipe whereas Samus would have to maintain a near constant barrage of direct hits to deal meaningful damage.

Shishio vs Origin:

Shishio wins.

This fight is the epitome of “oneshot or get shot.” Neither Shishio or Origin could stand up to just one of each others’ strikes with the exception of a lucky deflection off Shishio’s headband. Normally a fight like that would immediately go to the faster opponent, which Fem thoroughly convinced me Origin was, but Corv persuasively argued that Origin does not end fights so quickly. The Gon scaling antifeat is the nail in the coffin. Corv proved that Origin engages in sword clashes against people much slower than Shishio instead of just instantly decapitating them, and that Shishio’s massive strength advantage means a single clash of swords results in Origin staggered and possibly disarmed. Shishio, while slower, still had enough evidence for competitive speed that I buy him finishing Origin after this initial clash. The 13ms punch scaling is as fake as Fem says but the FTE movement isn’t---the wording is much too deliberate and Corv’s calc for what that means to the observer is reasonable. While Corv went absurdly overboard as to how much Shishio’s inhuman strength and weird body would confuse Origin, I buy it as enough to throw him off to further mitigate his speed and make a Shishio win that much more likely.

Zazie vs Sonic:

Zazie wins.

So much of this argument just boiled down to whether Rakan was comparable to Sonic or not. Yes. Yes he is. Fem’s best work here was dismantling Sonic’s proposed fight behaviour and cutting power. He definitely does not open with his fastest speeds per the Hammerhead stuff and lightly scoring supersuit bullshitium metal does not translate to the sort of piercing Corv would like him to have. Fem demonstrated sufficient skill and accuracy from Zazie that, in conjuction with Sonic’s cockiness, I buy him getting tagged at least once before he can meaningfully dismember Zazie into nonfunctionality. Explosives from both sides weren’t really relevant here---Zazie’s traps don’t do anything except potentially distract him as a side benefit while the bomb shurikens get shot down harmlessly.