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  1. LordDz: Im geuinely confused now
  2. LordDz: what exploit is spike doing
  3. D.D.D. Destroyer: spike isn't exploiting anything
  4. D.D.D. Destroyer: i'm calling removing all of your team's spawn points exploiting because it prevents the game from going to sudden death
  5. LordDz: dude
  6. LordDz: u can't call that an exploit
  7. LordDz: that's been in empires forever and it's been a strategy like forever
  8. D.D.D. Destroyer: it meets the definition quite accurately
  9. LordDz: exploits are what we kick people for
  10. D.D.D. Destroyer: people in america used to own black people and it was quite normal there too
  11. D.D.D. Destroyer: and then lincoln happened
  12. LordDz: what the fuck dude
  13. LordDz: did you just compare slaves to recycling barracks
  14. D.D.D. Destroyer: no, i compared the concept of a thing being an established norm
  15. D.D.D. Destroyer: in empires, it's preventing sudden death
  16. D.D.D. Destroyer: in 18th century US, it was slaves
  17. LordDz: So.. Not recyling baracks is equal to owning black people?
  18. D.D.D. Destroyer: no, and that's not what i said
  19. D.D.D. Destroyer: even by your logic it'd be the opposite, really
  20. LordDz: ": people in america used to own black people and it was quite normal there too
  21. " what does that mean then
  22. LordDz: if barracks recycling is normal and black slavement was considered both normal
  23. D.D.D. Destroyer: the concept of each is bad
  24. D.D.D. Destroyer: they aren't equal
  25. LordDz: Yeah but one is major fucking wrong, and one is... a strategy in a strategy game
  26. LordDz: that is allowed by the game maker
  27. LordDz: If it wasn't allowed is considered an exploit, shouldn't the devs have patched it by now
  28. D.D.D. Destroyer: In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.
  29. D.D.D. Destroyer: ^ that is straight from wikipedia
  30. D.D.D. Destroyer: the design intent is to have long games go into sudden death mode to help end them quickly
  31. LordDz: Yes, but who defines what an exploit is
  32. D.D.D. Destroyer: that is prevented by this action
  33. D.D.D. Destroyer: which makes it an exploit
  34. LordDz: But it's been used in every fucking scrim ever
  35. D.D.D. Destroyer: you're entering the field of philosophy
  36. D.D.D. Destroyer: aaand that takes us back to 18th century US
  37. LordDz: I don't give a shit about it. Keep to the gameplay of Empires.
  38. LordDz: You can go all university stuff you want, doesn't change the fact that we're still talking about empires
  39. LordDz: and in empires, recycling barracks has been a geniune strategy like forever
  40. LordDz: so just because you think it's an exploit
  41. LordDz: doesn't make it
  42. LordDz: even if you compare it to slaves
  43. LordDz: Like what the hell destroyer
  44. D.D.D. Destroyer: no, it's not that *i* think it's an exploit
  45. LordDz: You said Spike was exploiting
  46. D.D.D. Destroyer: it's that it's not intended to work this way
  47. D.D.D. Destroyer: no i was not
  48. D.D.D. Destroyer: if your console permits, you can look at the chat logs
  49. D.D.D. Destroyer: i said NF comm
  50. LordDz: Which spike was
  51. D.D.D. Destroyer: as NF comm is the only person that can recycle NF rax
  52. LordDz: Spike was the NF COM
  53. LordDz: So.. Since spike was the NF com, you basically said that spike was exploiting
  54. D.D.D. Destroyer: not really, for two big reasons
  55. D.D.D. Destroyer: 1) i wasn't looking at the scoreboard
  56. D.D.D. Destroyer: make of it what you want
  57. LordDz: Seriously man, are you trying to apply your university course to this debate?
  58. D.D.D. Destroyer: 2) you said in discord that you were the commander, and i rolled with it
  59. LordDz: You knew damn well that Spike was the commander
  60. D.D.D. Destroyer: no, my university course taught me how to set a broken arm
  61. D.D.D. Destroyer: did not
  62. D.D.D. Destroyer: i only saw him use arty
  63. LordDz: He was the commander for like 80% of the game
  64. D.D.D. Destroyer: and drive the CV right at the end
  65. LordDz: And when you accused NF to be exploting, he was the commander
  66. D.D.D. Destroyer: coincidentally, that wasn't when i was looking - but, again, we're getting away from the point
  67. LordDz: Then..
  68.  
  69. can we agree that you were wrong?
  70. D.D.D. Destroyer: it's less about who exploited, and more about the act of exploiting itself
  71. D.D.D. Destroyer: no we can't
  72. D.D.D. Destroyer: because i was wrong in my assumptions, but not in my statements
  73. LordDz: But who decided it was an exploit
  74. D.D.D. Destroyer: it matches the definition of an exploit
  75. LordDz: Like since it's been used in almost every game and nobody has complained about it expect you.. now
  76. LordDz: I don't remember you complaining about in any games we played
  77. LordDz: But now you do
  78. LordDz: Why
  79. D.D.D. Destroyer: i'm not always vocal with my opinions
  80. LordDz: So you've had this opinion that this has been an exploit over all these years and just now you've had the courage to express it?
  81. D.D.D. Destroyer: a more accurate description would be, in the recent months my opinion has formed on this subject, and it's as i've presented it in this conversation
  82. D.D.D. Destroyer: recent being the past 10-20
  83. LordDz: Then tell the devs and force them to fix the problem rather than calling out people and say that they are exploiting
  84. LordDz: when something has been considering a geninue tactic forever
  85. LordDz: It's like I would start screaming at people for killspawning
  86. LordDz: Because I think it's an exploit
  87. D.D.D. Destroyer: so what you mean to tell me here is that i shouldn't be reporting misconduct like this, and only work behind the scenes on removing the possibility of it?
  88. LordDz: I'm saying, if you want changed.
  89. Get the developers to fix it rather than sitting in spectator and say stuff like "NF IS EXPLOITING"
  90. D.D.D. Destroyer: this is assuming i'm not doing anything but that, i believe
  91. D.D.D. Destroyer: which while close to true, is not
  92. LordDz: So then do that, instead of pissing of the few people we still have playing empires.
  93. D.D.D. Destroyer: oh the fabled "don't make it deader" thing?
  94. D.D.D. Destroyer: yeah nah i'm good
  95. D.D.D. Destroyer: gotta get rid of what's bad, otherwise new good things won't stick
  96. LordDz: Yes, but we should implement the good things in a way so we can keep the player count growing.
  97.  
  98. Instead of accusing players of exploiting when using the current gameplay rules
  99. D.D.D. Destroyer: so you're saying, don't opelny point out exploits
  100. LordDz: I'm saying, fix the problem with a patch.
  101.  
  102. Rather than allow a thing forever then suddenly say that it's an exploit
  103. D.D.D. Destroyer: so what is your recommendation on openly pointing it out?
  104. LordDz: It's kinda if Valve would suddenly ban people from using creep pulling, "now it's considered an exploit, lets ban people for using it"
  105. D.D.D. Destroyer: you are the only person here talking about banning
  106. D.D.D. Destroyer: here and in the IRC thread
  107. LordDz: Shouldn't exploiting be banned?
  108. D.D.D. Destroyer: nowhere did i say anything regarding punishment
  109. LordDz: I thought that was the general rule of exploiting?
  110. D.D.D. Destroyer: strongly depends on severity and the impact on the game.
  111. LordDz: So you're saying we should allow exploiting?
  112. D.D.D. Destroyer: no, i'm not saying that at all
  113. D.D.D. Destroyer: you're jumping from one conclusion to another now
  114. LordDz: So.. What should the effect of exploiting be?
  115. LordDz: As an example, recyling rax to prevent sudden death
  116. D.D.D. Destroyer: i don't know, and i'm unwilling to state anything here
  117. D.D.D. Destroyer: since, as we both know, recording thigns on the internet is...a thign
  118. LordDz: But you are willing to call out people who are using it, but you are not willing to give a sentence ofr it
  119. D.D.D. Destroyer: yeah, and i didn't do anything about it on drygulch either
  120. LordDz: So..
  121.  
  122. If you do not want to give a sentence for using it, why call it out
  123. D.D.D. Destroyer: because truth be told idk what to do in that situation
  124. D.D.D. Destroyer: i will happily point it out though
  125. D.D.D. Destroyer: because i believe doing this is wrong
  126. LordDz: So.. Exploits are allowed to a sort of degree then? Depends on what the exploit is
  127. D.D.D. Destroyer: as it always has been the case
  128. D.D.D. Destroyer: 9mining things is fine
  129. LordDz: So.. Can we sum this awesome discussion up with that...
  130.  
  131. Recycling barracks is ok since it's always been the case?
  132. D.D.D. Destroyer: 9mining things over/onto unreachable areas, not so much
  133. D.D.D. Destroyer: no, because, again, 18th century US
  134. LordDz: Oh yeah, because the US owned slaves during the 18th
  135. D.D.D. Destroyer: no, because just 'cause something is an accepted norm, doesn't mean it's right
  136. LordDz: But who decides what is right?
  137. Like if I say that healthcare for everyone is a right, does that make.. me right?
  138. D.D.D. Destroyer: conversely, if i say that being able to own a person is a right, does that make me right?
  139. D.D.D. Destroyer: we're moving into philosophy
  140. LordDz: Well, that aint a field for me
  141. LordDz: So I'll say this
  142. D.D.D. Destroyer: neither it is for me
  143. LordDz: Cya in the next game ! Which will be in about... 2-3 months
  144. D.D.D. Destroyer: lawl
  145. D.D.D. Destroyer: my bottom line is, i don't think it's something that should be happening, and something should be done about it
  146. LordDz: And my bottom line is:
  147. Fix the game that allows the "exploit" to happen rather than sitting in spec and call out people for using it
  148. D.D.D. Destroyer: i agree with this sentiment.
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