Ama vs Nerf - Qaws judgement

Nerf vs Ama

Nerf's First Response

* Nerf contends that Samus will alpha strike Ama's team and kill them by blowing up their car
* Samus can fire shots that obliterate ships that can fly through concrete, punch large holes through metal walls, slag metal, and her ice beam can freeze objects to the point where they shatter
* Nerf argues that Samus' accuracy showings, such as shooting to ricocheted bullets from outside a building, missiles out of the air and gunning down 13 Space Pirates in quick succession. Nerf argues that these combined with the cramped environment would make it difficult for either of Ama's team to get close without being shot to death
* Nerf uses Ama's opening post's logic for their speed. Stating that Ama's arguments have Shang on the defensive from a 100 millisecond gun cycle. Additionally, Nerf shows evidence of Batman taking ten seconds to cross a rooftop, which isn't good movement speed for avoiding Samus' gun spam
* Nerf argues that Samus' physical output is to much for Ama's team to handle. With her punching a man through reinforced concrete without enough force to destroy a car after exiting, spinning through steel and shows scans of Samus being blown through reinforced concrete and getting up quickly.
* Nerf then transitions to Caerula. Stating that its not a different argument, but rather than Ama's team would have to contend with Caerula when approaching Samus and neither can handle her
* Caerula can slash through multiple feet of concrete and engine blocks, which Nerf argues would kill either of Ama's characters
* Caerula can throw hundreds of knives with a single motion, which Nerf argues would damage/kill Ama's team since Batman's armor isn't stabproof and neither is Shang's gear
* Nerf then tries to preempt Ama's counterpoints. Stating that if Ama argues that they could try to block/dodge the knives, that Ama has already admitted that they can't handle the damage the knives would cause
* Nerf argues that Caerula can clash and deflect attacks from people superior to either of Ama's team. Additionally points out that the gauntlets being blade-proof would only put Batman in danger if he attempts to disarm her, since she's notably stronger than he is
* Nerf argues that Caerula can withstand serious damage, with her surviving a heart stab and other vampires withstanding being stabbed in the brain.
* Nerf then goes to speed. With showings such as Caerula deflecting bullets with her sword, avoiding gunfire from 19 shooters after they've fired, and reacts to supersonic attacks from behind (he says surprise attack but Caerula sensed Atlita's movement based on the shock mark on her face)
* Caerulacan body-read her opponents and predict attacks. The people she does it against are 3x faster than her with the ability to perform actions in 10 milliseconds, yet she's so much more dominant than them that at one point in the fight they felt as if they stood no chance at winning
* Nerf then addresses faults he finds with Batman's speed. Nerf argues that Ama's is trying to have showings both ways, with only the positive Post-Crisis showings, and doesn't want any of the negatives. Going from this he then tackles Batman's speed by ignoring the two Post-Crisis showings
* Nerf goes over some of the previously used speed feats for Batman. Arguing that the Deathstroke one is unusable since we don't know when the Batarang was thrown, Batman was far away from the drones when he blocked the shots, the missiles he intercepted didn't have time to accelerate and that later in the same comic he's shot by a gun. Finally the gun tackle explicitly takes over two seconds to accomplish, which Nerf is presumably arguing isn't good for the tier
* Nerf then posts a large amount of Batman speed anti-feats.

Ama's First Response

* Ama counters Nerf's points about his team being able to handle blows from his characters. Showing Shang-Chi and Batman punching through stone/marble and then showing scenes where Caerula being knocked out/wounded by a cliff fall and Samus being down for multiple panels after being punched through a floor
* Ama responds to Nerf's points of his team's attacks having a long windup, with Shang-Chi's feat being a kick on someone faster than himself and Batman's feat being a normal punch. Following that he shows examples of Samus being staggered by weaker blows
* Ama shows scans of Shang catching and dodging bullets after they've fired.
* Ama uses the scans Nerf dismissed before as unusable, but will presumably be arguing that are valid later on
* Ama argues that both Shang-Chi and Batman are fast enough to cover the distance needed to in order to close in on Nerf's team
* Ama transitions to arguing against Samus' presented speed. Arguing that the Penguins are scaling to a large vehicle moving uphill, that the bullets she shot down would've notably slowed down after being deflected. They then go into Samus' IC mindset of just face tanking attacks rather than dodging them
* Ama then goes for Caerula's speed. Showing that she can't dodge gunfire, but rather reacts to her enemies' bloodlust and essentially aim blocks them. Additionally, Ama shows Caerula having trouble closing in on a shooter while giving examples of Batman and Shang covering similar distances much faster
* Ama gives examples of Shang's Adamantium staff being more or less unbreakable for the characters of this tier
* Ama argues that Batman's gauntlets would block the sword slashes/knives with his gauntlets. However, this does fall into the trap that Nerf said originally, where it admits that neither would be able to physically withstand a direct hit from Caerula
* Ama then flips the script and instead argues that Samus has a rather large windup. With her best showing having an argued long windup time that his team can avoid, then argues that Samus' shots aren't as fast, strong or as accurate as Nerf claims
* Ama argues that Caerula's striking feat requires a similar windup
* Ama argues that the knife throw can be avoided by his team, even in an enclosed space due to their agility
* Ama states that Nerf was misunderstanding his reasoning. With Deadpool's teleportation and guns being what would put Shang-Chi in a defensive position rather than just the guns
* Ama then posts counters to some of Nerf's previous striking feats. Arguing (presumably) that Batman/Shang-Chi can figure out the Screwattacks weakness and strike it to put it down.
* Ama argues that both Batman and Shang-Chi can withstand blows that can shatter metal. Then argues that the Samus punch is worse than argued by Nerf.
* Ama then posts counterarguments to Nerf's arguments on Batman's speed. With a statement of PF Batman being the fastest, showing that the lock timing of Slade pulling the trigger would make the feat good, that the drone block was closer than what Nerf argued, that the RPGs would've gotten to top speed and that the scan of Batman tackling the gunman happend after she had pulled it and was going to shoot Catwoman
* Ama argues that Batman's eleven-second thing with Zoom is only bad under the assumption that every action takes a second, rather than a snapshot of second intervals. With Zoom as the main evidence since he ranges from supersonic to FTL speed wise.
* Ama then posts more showings of Batman avoiding gunfire
* Ama then goes over Shang and Batman's skill and stealth showings. With both having mastered every martial arts for their world, both having super senses, both having stealth that's superior to people with superhuman senses, etc. Giving them a major advantage for not only getting close to Nerf's team but defeating them in a CQC battle
* One of these arguments is about Caerula's precognition. Ama shows evidence of both Batman and Shang fighting people who can body read or use precog for fighting and still winning/landing hits
* Ama then covers his team's win conditions. With Batman/Shang superior skill, gear that can take out either opponent if they land, and a generally better utilization of the environment

Nerf's Second Response

* Nerf posts a counterargument to Ama's previous explosion comparison. With Samus' explosions being far larger than Batman's. Additionally, they note that Ama didn't respond to the other energy beam options that Samus has.
* Samus can continuously fire attacks, such as her ice beam, which can resist/freeze the core of a star
* Nerf points out that Ama argues that the Batmobile is both an assist and a liability, which is a self-defeating point
* Nerf argues that Batman's main durability argument for the tier is being injured after being shoved into some concrete. Additionally, Shang's main feat is being punched into a vague concrete formation that doesn't cause a lot of damage
* Nerf then argues that neither suggests that they could easily roll with Samus' gun, which hits with a similar/greater force per shot
* Nerf posts a counterargument for the jaguar scaling that Ama uses since the jaguar first had to climb down a tree and didn't have enough time to accelerate
* Nerf then argues that Batman isn't moving 50+ MPH in that scene Ama used, since its more in line with his stealth showings. Nerf then shows anti-feats (albeit two were from Post-Crisis) where Batman struggles to cover such large distances quickly
* Nerf's argument of Samus' speed is that she can consistently move and shoot and the car feat involved her catching up quickly despite a large gap between her and the vehicle. Additionally, the penguins that caught up to the truck had jetpacks, so they weren't just sliding to them
* Nerf posts counterarguments to Ama's previous gunman comparison. With Batman being shot by the shotgun the first time and still having his cape hit the second time. Shang also lets his shooter get multiple shots off. Caerula is argued as being incredibly mobile, with her able to fight across a city and blitz a shooter between gunshots
* As mentioned before and not really countered, neither Batman or Shang-Chi's regular armor can withstand Caerula's attacks. With only the staff/gauntlets acting as counters
* Nerf argues that the counterpoints presented by Ama aren't good enough to avoid Caerula's knife throw
* Nerf shows scans showing that Caerula's power is incredibly exploitative of automatic body movement, which is what both Batman and Shang-Chi were argued as having. Additionally, he covers some of the precog arguments. With Spider-Man and the Blade-wannabe having increased perception speed and Cassandra having worse body reading and still being superior to Batman
* Nerf then goes over the physical stats of the teams. Arguing that his are superior and more durable than Ama
* The previously used anti-feat for Caerula was before she got some of her other powers such as regeneration
* Nerf argues that the bullet feat is impressive for the tier, with the bullets at most only losing 35% of their speed when Samus intercepted them. Additionally, to counter the face tank argument, Nerf shows examples of Samus avoiding attacks from people Ama argued that she let hit her
* Nerf's next point is about Caerula's speed and how she consistently reacts to supersonic objects, with things like avoiding a supersonic tackle or keeping up with someone who can through 400 strikes a second
* Nerf argues that Ama's previous skill points are mostly meaningless for this fight. Caerula's stuff all comes from a fictional universe of super-martial arts without a lot of grounding with IRL metrics like fighting in zero g.
* Nerf then goes harder into Batman's speed anti-feats.
* Nerf argues that Caerula's senses would involve aspects that Batman and Shang-Chi wouldn't be able to counter with stealth, such as reacting to air-molecule vibrations and that Samus' thermal/x-ray vision would allow her to detect either enemy

Due to the back-and-forth nature, most of the points are covering similar ground as the previous ones. So I'll be more straightforward from this point on


Ama's second response

* Ama's first point is arguing saying Batman and Shang-Chi have the strength to match Caerula's car toss. Then goes into saying that Samus is still staggered or hit by attacks that Batman/Shang can replicate
* Ama then tackles the Batman bullet arguments and Nerf's arguments regarding Shang tackling the Jaguar
* Ama then goes over the argued points regarding Nerf's windups and his team's durability
* Ama argues that Batman and Shang-Chi can avoid all of Samus' gunfire with their agility
* Ama then covers most of the one-point arguments. Such as Samus' firepower, her explosive power, her ice beam not scaling to freezing a star, and how the tunnel would lead Samus to not use explosives out of risk of harming her teammate
* Ama argues that his gear would still be effective against Nerf's team due to Caerula not avoiding attacks as much as parrying them and that getting gas masks would put her at risk of being stealth-attacked


Conclusion

Overall this is rather hard to judge. Because both points were presented well and ultimately it's just difficult to pick the winning argument when you find both sides well sourced.

Overall my feelings are as follows:
* I don't feel like Ama's evidence of Shang-Chi's stealth is enough for him to overcome Samus' gear and Caerula's senses
* I do believe that Ama's evidence would allow Batman to avoid Samus' gear and I'm torn on how effectively Caerula can sense him. I think she can ultimately, but it's not a simple aspect
* The feats Ama gave for beating pre-cog are almost all methods that don't apply to Caerula's ability in my view. Mind-reading isn't the same as body reading in my view and the pre-cog/body reading aspects both work on Shang-Chi and Batman, they're just skilled enough to beat their opponents. But in my view Caerula's body reading is better than anything Ama presented
* With zero electricity showings the taser-rangs would probably knock out or at least stun Caerula if they hit. I think there's enough present to counter the gas
* Batman and Shang-Chi don't have the durability to withstand Caerula's piercing attacks. Though the staff/gauntlets would be able to block it.
* I believe that Batman general movement speed was sufficently questioned by Nerf and I lean more towards their view. However, Ama did a solid job with Shang-Chi and I'm more on their side with the 30-50 MPH stuff
* Samus feels slower than everyone else. Though reaction-wise she can keep up, I didn't see anything that compared with how the other three fight in combat
* I agree with Ama that Samus wouldn't use bombs unless she's willing to kill or hurt her teammate which Nerf never really argued against
* I think Samus hits harder than either Batman or Shang-Chi and I'm leaning more towards to Caerula hitting as hard as they do. However, the wind-up point is flawed imo. With the marble throw had it, the punch didn't and neither did Shang-Chi's kick. If Nerf argues that Samus' haymaker isn't a windup, then I don't see how Ama's team also isn't one
* I think Samus is seriously out-skilled by either of Ama's team, though I think Caerula can easily hang with them with her body reading and martial arts
* I think that Batman isn't as solid as Ama's implying and he just has a lot of low showings that were brought out. He's still agile and his stealth would allow him to avoid Samus in my view, but if caught out I don't think he can reliably avoid all the gun spam that can come out. Shang-Chi wasn't challenged as much so presumably Nerf didn't have the same level of counter evidence as they had against Batman

In the end, I think Samus is the weak link for Nerf, so it comes down to if his team can kill someone of the other team before Samus goes down. Additionally, Caerula fighting Batman puts her at risk of being stunned with electricity or brought down with some other random gadget that she has no proper resistance to.

But is Nerf's advantages enough to give him that? Honestly, I would say so. I think that Caerula can kill someone on Ama's team before they incap her or Samus. Samus laying covering fire is also something that I don't see Ama's team easily countering without a lot of constant pressure.

I would say after reading everything that Nerf had the better argument in my view.

Also for Ama if he moves on, I agree with Nerf that's the thing Batman intercepted isn't an RPG-7; as it's too much of a cylinder for that. It looks more like an AT-4 Missile Launcher with a little targeting sight on the side. The speed are roughly the same, but I felt like mentioning that.