S14E02

Welcome to Echoes of History, the place to explore the rich stories from the past that bring the world of Assassin's Creed to life. I'm Matt Lewis. Today we're strolling through the streets of 15th century Florence, where the epic Ezio trilogy of Assassin's Creed and the Renaissance began. This was an age of sweeping transformation in politics, literature, science, art and architecture. Perhaps nothing better represents the latter achievements than Il Duomo di Firenze, but the story of its construction is much more complicated and controversial than you might expect. The morning sun has just climbed over the rooftops of the city. Its yellow rays hit the flagstones and bounce back as a brilliant white. As you enter the cathedral complex from the dusty city streets, this simple trick of the light makes you feel elevated already. Then you look up. Stretching into the sky, seemingly into heaven itself, is the great facade of the Duomo. Its ten stories of green, white and red marble form a stunning frame around mullioned windows, richly detailed fresco paintings and bays for the finest statues. In the sunshine, the marble seems impervious to earthly forces and its combination of Gothic architecture and modern stylings transcends time. At least that's how you imagine it will look once it's finished. Right now the front is rather bare, with only the decoration at its lowest levels completed. Nevertheless, though the front entrance may not dazzle you, the bell tower next to it does. Its marble facade is complete and a humbling reminder of the marvels man can achieve in this age of rebirth. Twice the length of the largest galley on the seas, the tower is almost the tallest thing in Florence. Almost for behind it, you see the red tiles of the dome, a unique and gigantic construction that sits unsupported on the cathedral roof, as if God himself had ordered it to float so that it would always remain close to heaven. Irresistibly the immense structure draws you inside, you pass the red robed priests and black cloaked monks to step through the enormous ornate bronze doors. Inside the cathedral is cavernous. It's also disappointing. The grey columns and arches feel like they were made for giants and stand in stark contrast to the plain white walls and ceilings. There isn't much in the way of decoration, let alone opulence befitting such an architectural triumph. The word that comes to mind is sparse. Unlike the dazzling exterior that compelled you to look up, the simplicity of the interior encourages you to look down, and when you do, you see a wonder. The floor is a revelation of pied patterns like a bird's eye view of countless mazes, black, white, green and red marble arranged in never-ending geometries of enigmatic significance. Are they roads to heaven or spirals to hell? In the distance a sound urges you to look up again. It's the sound of a solo voice chanting Latin prayers. You recognize the voice, it belongs to the man you came to see. The chant is faint, not coming from within. It seems to be coming from the vaults. The roof. He's on the roof. You shake your limbs, loosening the ligaments and checking the blade hidden within your sleeve. It's time to climb. Land Creed 2 puts players in the shoes of Ezio Auditore di Firenze. Through him we can walk through the streets and clamber over the roofs of his home town as it was during the height of Renaissance Italy. One mission in particular gives us the opportunity to climb Il Duomo to get a closer look at every detail, both inside and out. To guide me through the intricate history of this fascinating building, I'm joined by architectural historian Dr Emma Wells. Welcome to Echoes of History Emma, it's fantastic to have you with us. Thank you for having me. I can't think of anyone better to talk about architectural history. You've been on Gone Medieval, we've spoken a couple of times about various things on there, so when it came to trying to think about some of the buildings of Assassin's Creed, there was no one I would rather have talked to about the Duomo in Florence. Thank you very much, it's very kind. To start us off with, when we talk about the Duomo, and people quite often just say the Duomo, what do we actually mean? What building are we talking about? Well, we are talking of course about the Cathedral of Santa Maria del Fiore, which is, to translate that, is the Cathedral of Saint Mary of the Flowers, that's what that translates to, and of course Saint Mary being the Virgin Mary, and her flower being, Mart, do you know what her flower is? I want to give an answer, but I'm not sure I want to give it. Lily, white Lily, and what's interesting about that is you'll see it, the reason it's so important though is, particularly for the medieval, and later on, even up to today actually, if you see sort of whites and reds, particularly in churches, there's usually a reason for that. White being the Virgin, purity, virginal, and then the red being the blood of Christ. So there you go. Every day's a school day. And where about in Florence would we find the Duomo? Right in the centre of Florence, I mean, right in the middle. I think it's the tallest building in Florence, now I'm embarrassed to say. I don't think they've created a city, yes, in Florence, but we'll go with that, yes. And in Assassin's Creed 2, players get to climb over the dome of the Cathedral as it was in 1478. How old is the Duomo? Do we know when it's begun to be built? The Duomo itself, and Duomo being Cathedral, yes it has a dome, but that is sort of shorthand for Cathedral we'll use if we say Duomo here. I suppose it has two lives, two histories, whatever we want to term it. And the reason I say that is if you're talking in sort of 1470s and that sort of later 15th century, that is what we effectively see today of the Cathedral. Yes, I suppose we can call it the Renaissance era of it, but it started about two centuries earlier than that. There was a previous Cathedral on site, which was largely downed, and then it was rebuilt and it was rebuilt in a very interesting way, which we will of course come onto. But it sort of starts about 100 or so years before your 1470 era and is completely rebuilt into the building that we see today. So that's why I'm saying it sort of can go all the way back to the 1200s, but really what we're seeing is effectively 15th century, largely 15th century. And do we know when it was finished? It depends what you mean by finished. So I suppose the bits and pieces adding to the actual Duomo, as in the actual dome, the cupolas, all the things that are on top of it, we're into the sort of late 15th century and a few bits and pieces a little bit later than that, but largely 15th century. Yeah. What are the main kind of architectural features of it? What makes it different or significant? That's an interesting question, I suppose. What makes any Cathedral significant? But I think what it's so best known for is its Duomo, is its dome. Now, there's so many interesting bits and pieces to your question, Martz. I think you've opened to kind of worms here because it's interesting for its architecture, it's interesting for its engineering, it's interesting for how it was engineered, and it's interesting for its mason. We'll go to the mason first, I suppose. I think what's so interesting about how the Duomo itself was built, particularly the dome, is Filippo Brunelleschi, he was a bit of a sculptor, an artist, a clockmaker. He had never built a building in his life before the Duomo, never. However, there had been several iterations, if you will, several ideas for this new Duomo, which was the sort of, it was the era of these great big polas. That was becoming the sort of, as we saw with the Gothic era, with the Cathedral building crusade. When you get into the Renaissance, when you get into the 15th century, sort of these big round domes is the sort of flavour of the month, if you will. And there'd been several iterations of this going back right to the 13th century. How are we going to finish the Cathedral? There's all these ideas put forward and no one had been able to build them, essentially. No one had been able to put them into practice physically. So a competition was put forth by the Cathedral Works Commission, the opera, with a prize. They wanted someone capable enough to construct the Duomo. Brunelleschi came along and there was a nice little anecdote about him putting down an egg on the table, flattening the egg, and essentially, in so many words, saying, look at this, idiots, really, is the way it sort of comes across. And they said, well, what are you talking about? You know, how are you going to build that? And it was sort of the shape, if you think of a Duomo, if you splat an egg down, flat on the bottom, sort of like a dome on the top, if you put an egg on, if it doesn't completely, obviously, crack. But that's what he was getting at. And he was saying, this is what I'm going to build. I know how to build this. As I say, he wasn't a mason. He was largely known, I believe, at this time, for being a goldsmith, clockmaker and all these sorts of things. But he had an engineering background. Then he also built a little model, I think it was about four, five foot, a couple of feet anyway, was his model out of little bricks and timber of his Duomo. Long story short, he did get the commission for this, along with someone else who I'll come on to. And he effectively started building it. There's so many interesting bits and bobs when it comes to the building of it, one being slightly tangential to the main point, but he even built like kitchens up as they were actually constructing the dome. And he built kitchens up there so that all of the workers could eat and things like this. Very, very interesting. That's very, it doesn't usually happen. But to build this, and what's so interesting is that his model, so his miniature little model, what was interesting about that and what I guess they believed in was he was the first one that didn't have any sort of centering. So centering is a little bit like the timber foresting within spires or within the roofs of cathedrals, the great, you know, the masses of the timbers or the structure, the wooden structure that's just sort of centering. The Duomo that he had constructed, his miniature model didn't have any of that. So it was effectively two inner and outer skins worn over the other sort of within a sort of drum shell. That's how he did it. That was effectively strong enough to hold that without any scaffolding, without any support. And then putting that into practice, he created as well to sort of make sure it all interlinked. He used sort of herringbone pattern all the way around. And then within that, even what is known as belts and chains, and it's sort of horizontal bricks too, which effectively acted like a belt all the way around the Duomo to keep it up. So herringbone, belting, and then even ties around that too. And that's simply just from placing of bricks, placing of the stones in a certain way so that they interlink and will provide enough strength to build a spherical structure. And that's how he did that. And then on top of that, this is why it's so fascinating. I told you, kind of worms. He even produced engineering machines to get up there, to scaffold it, to all of this. But he was the first one to produce a hoist with a reverse gear as well. So there you go. Does Bruno Leschi ever build any other buildings or is this like one and done? Is this like, this is perfect. I'm not going to try and build anything else. What he pretty much was on it till his death. And he's buried there. So he's done bits and pieces of other buildings, but this is his mandemopus for sure. I feel like if you'd built that, you'd either feel like I could build anything. What shall I do next? Or you'd feel like I'm not going to try anything else because that's as good as it's ever going to get. Or it puts you in an early grave because of the stress of the fact that it may fall down. And I think there was a lot of that too. I think he very much knew that he wasn't a mason. But I think this era, particularly with Giberty, who's, I don't want to call them craftsmen, but they're not masons again. They've done doors elsewhere and all this kind of thing. They weren't known for this. So I think even though he created this tiny little model building, this model structure, and even though no one else had come up with an effective solution, I suppose he didn't have the mind to think when things were going wrong quickly to think what am I going to do? So it certainly wasn't an easy commission for anyone. Why was there a desire to build such a spectacular and difficult building in Florence? You've got to remember this is such an important church being dedicated to St Mary of the Flowers. It is our lady. And initially that's even more important. The kind of cult of the Virgin was so prominent at this time. We sort of have to think of that as well. And given that Florence again at this time, given the Medici family and all the wealth that is within Florence, you have, I think it's important to remember as well that you have quite a lot of fingers and a lot of pies. You have a lot of people that are, I suppose we would use it investing in these buildings as well. Even Medicis do invest in the Duomo in Florence as well. And so it has to be a building of such great height. Now we are still technically in the Gothic era too. So we are still in that era of the Cathedral Crusade outdoing the Joneses down the street, if you will, who's got the best, the highest, the tallest, the most inventive building. But I think for them, they wanted a structure like the one that originally been put forth, going back to the original design by Arnolfo, his name was. And he died without ever putting into practice. And I think there were just sets as well on this spherical structure too, because it just represented so many things for such an important building in such an important city at the time. And no one had managed it until Pippo, as his name was, Brunelleschi's nickname was Pippo, until Pippo came along and sort of came up with a solution. Fascinating. And how was the building funded? Was there a big benefactor behind it or was there a collective effort to get this building put together? A bit of both, I suppose, really, as I say, the main great families within Florence, which is the case, this isn't anything new, but which is the case here, though, is they all invested within it in different ways. But there was the opera del Duomo, as it was called, the Cathedral Works Commission, along with the Guild of Wool, which I believe was the Arte della Lana. I guess they were merchants. They invested the majority of the money. They were the ones, I think, who technically put the money forth for the competition. And of course, given the world trade at this time across Europe, that is where the money was coming from. So that's effectively, I would say, the world merchants are your prime investors. I was going to ask what kind of challenges they faced. The obvious one, I guess, is how do you do this stone because they have to have a competition to do it. But are there other issues that they encounter with trying to build this magnificent cathedral in Florence? I think the problem sort of stems from the fact that the original design was largely based on one of the ancient Roman temples, the Pantheon Rotonda. Arnolfo wanted to imitate that. And after he was sort of dead and gone, I think they went to look at his plans again. But the problem with his plans was that the span, which is effectively what Brinesky figured out, if you will, the span of such a big Duomo, as in the spherical Duomo, it would have to be 62, I think it is, Brachia, which is a Tuscan unit of measurement, a measurement from this era. But it's about just under 120 feet, which is a huge span. So you would think you need such a lot of support, such a lot of forestry or centering. If they'd have put it into practice, then it would have been larger than the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, their dome. So it was just too difficult. And they didn't want as well, whether this was, I don't know, arrogance or just invention, they didn't want flying buttresses. Because if you think about Notre Dame and it's in its east end, you have effectively a dome on its side, I suppose. You have all the great big skeletal cage propping it up, holding it up, bringing that thrust out, bringing the thrust down to create these great skeletal walls. Well, you need the same for a dome, a proper dome, a spherical structure. But the only way to do that of such a great span was to put flying buttresses out and down to effectively support it. They didn't want to do that. And I suppose it would entirely have ruined the composition of it. I completely understand why they didn't want to do that. So they had to come up with, and they couldn't at the time for several centuries, they couldn't come up with anything until Brunelleschi came along of how to do it. And so I suppose it was a matter of time, technology and invention. And it just happened that Brunelleschi was the one that came up with the right idea, really. Yeah. I love the idea of them all sitting there thinking, we're going to make this thing that's really difficult and technically almost impossible. The only thing that will help it to work is flying buttresses. So we're definitely not going to use those. We're going to make this even more difficult than it already is. And then they wonder why no one gets it done for a couple of hundred years. Exactly. And I think they probably also felt that Arnolfo's idea, perhaps before he died, they probably thought it could have been done. And then they realized no one can figure this out. No one can do it. It still happens to this day when you have even architects coming up with great ideas, but they can't be implemented. They can't be put into practice by the engineers until you get down the line or until engineering or technology catches up with, you know, invention. So it all happened when it should have done. I'll have to keep my voice down because right now I'm between the actual bedsheets of some of history's most famous figures. Want to know more about what Hitler might have been like in the sack or Julius Caesar or our very own Billy Shakespeare? You wouldn't believe the details I'm able to uncover here on Betwixt the Sheets, a podcast by History Hit. Because sexuality explored through a historical lens can reveal a surprising amount about the human experience, what's an all, if you'll excuse the pun. And we don't just stop at sex. Expect outrageous scandals throughout the centuries, as well as probing into everyday issues, the nitty gritty of human life that really connects us to all people throughout history. Join me, Kate Lister, every Tuesday and Friday on Betwixt the Sheets to find out more. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Right. Time to slide out of here and avoid the bedpan. And Brunelleschi's dome still stands today. Is that because it's perfect? Are there any issues with it? Is it problematic or? It was problematic from the start. I suppose we could we could argue that too. And that goes back to this kind of interlinked chains and belts of bricks and stones and what have you. It's an inventive solution, but is it structurally sound for hundreds and hundreds of years? You know, seeing lots of inclement weather and changes in climate and the erosion of stone or that kind of thing. Of course, there's going to be changes and problems with that as with any cathedral. But what it's had to have not even long after it was first constructed was far more sort of ties and belts, metal belts, metal ties, rather than just those that are built in to the dome using the brick and stone. It had to physically be tied later on because it was sort of bowing out. And then there's been other periods of alteration to see it. Iron chains going around as well, just to ensure that it I suppose another type of belt going around different brackets as well, just to ensure it keeps its shape. And then there's been other bits and pieces of work to it because it's seen sort of several thunderstorms. It's been hit by lightning several times. And so when Brunelleschi died, he did have an idea for a sort of lantern on top of the Duomo, so a little other structure, small structure on top of the Duomo. And it was up to his sort of successors to design that and put that and construct that on. It wasn't there when he died. I think he died mid-15th century, something like that. So into the later 1400s, that's when the lantern went on. That's an octagonal lantern. We see that in England as well. If we think Ely, Ely's tower also fell and they had an octagonal lantern up there. So it's sort of a very typical of that era. Makes sense. And yes, so there's been several interventions. It's still problematic as well. But what Brunelleschi effectively did, though, was create sort of little staircases within each of the sort of small sections on the dome so that you could go up, which for that time, it's for the murals to be painted inside, but also to ensure that you can brace it as the centuries go on, too. And do we have a sense of what the people of Florence thought of the Duomo? Do they, you know, they've got this incredibly fancy, almost unique building. Do they like it? Do they make use of it? Yeah, I mean, like any cathedral, Florence was certainly the same. And I think particularly given that Florence was such an important city, you know, throughout the Renaissance era and even before that, I think we have to remember as well that all cathedrals were the heart of a community. So and the nave of the Duomo, as with any, was there for coming together of people, congregate, worship, of course, they were very much invested in it. I mean, it is right in the centre of Florence. It is the most prominent building. It is for many of the residents where they worship locally as well. So on Sundays, on the high feast days. So it's not only a very important building to them from a religious and Catholic perspective, but also it's sort of a very important civic building, too. And so that's why you see so many different guilds and Italian areas of society just giving money to this cathedral to not only memorialise themselves, but to see it continue for centuries on. Fascinating. And just before we leave the kind of the architecture of it as well, do we see it having an influence on other buildings? Do people try and copy what Brunelleschi has done? The reason I'm hesitating is, yes, there are imitators. Yes, there are similar bits and pieces elsewhere. But I don't think anyone has actually done what Brunelleschi has done. But I must caveat that too, by saying probably because it actually wasn't entirely effective. We have to remember that too. And we see that throughout the sort of Gothic and into the Renaissance era, actually, with this type of architecture, when you see a sort of innovation, it's often not copied again because it just it wasn't really up to par yet. So, yes, we do see, as I say, Venice, Florence are the main two that have Duomas like this, and we do see them through Italy, but nothing on this scale that I can really, really think of Rome to, but nothing really on the scale without that centering. It doesn't really work as well. Are there any kind of key events, key moments in Florence's history that are associated with the Duoma? Most eras, actually, we have played out. Well, I suppose we're into the sort of 1400s at this point, but so many eras, even people like I mean, you know, this is just from my own interesting perspective. Vasari was involved in Pardon Parcel of the of the Cathedral. Vasari was also friendly with Brunelleschi and even spoke about that he should be the one to, you know, to do the commission or things like that. And it's just interesting from a historical perspective. Another very interesting era, too, actually, will be the Black Death. So that's another particularly interesting era because Florence was virtually wiped out. Florence was very much here, given its sort of port status, you know, with the boats coming in, the rats coming off and it decimating the city. Of course, we see this over in England as well with the Black Death comes across 1340s and Cathedral building stops. Cathedral building effectively does hold all together. That's why we get the breaking Gothic architecture from, you know, the sort of decorated period into perpendicular, which are far more sort of regimented eras. And that's because of the Black Death, because there weren't the masons after the Black Death leaves and the population sort of starts again. You have master masons, you know, passing down those skills and creating new ones. And that's why you have that break. It's the same in Florence as well. And as a result, you had a previous cathedral, which has been sort of still added to, still altered right back to our null foes original design. And then the money dries up entirely. That basically is that there aren't the people to see it through. And it really was the Black Death. And we know of this because there is documentary evidence that respectively says it was after that they came back. And that's why the Wool Guild decided to go about this competition in the very early 1400s and start to sort of again, a cathedral rising from the ashes for a city that had also done the same. Obviously, it took decades to get back on their feet and early 1400s was that sort of era, hence they started the competition to rebuild it, to rebuild their great cathedral in the middle of their city. And I guess Florence has built its status and its wealth off its trade links to the east, particularly on the Silk Road, you know, bringing in lots of spices and it becomes a real hub for that. But that makes it an ideal entry site for the Black Death. So that's probably why it's quite so decimated is because it has that position as a trading hub and a port where all of that stuff is coming from the east, which makes it easy entry for the Black Death. That's absolutely what it was. It was so susceptible because of its location, because the rats essentially came off the boat and couldn't escape. And there are there is documentary accounts of this actually occurring and people seeing this actually occurring before they even realised and knew it was the Black Death effectively coming off those boats and coming to see their doom, if you will. It's a really interesting period. Venice, of course, the same thing does occur. And we see the sort of breaks not only with cathedral building, but with all this great civic squalor buildings and all of that same thing. We see this halt in the late 1300s and we see a sort of renaissance and hence metaphorically, but also literally this renaissance of architecture as a result. And afterwards they were building from this sort of great problematic misfortune. I'll have to keep my voice down because right now I'm between the actual bedsheets of some of history's most famous figures. Want to know more about what Hitler might have been like in the sack or Julius Caesar or our very own Billy Shakespeare? You wouldn't believe the details I'm able to uncover here on Betwixt the Sheets, a podcast by History Hit because sexuality explored through a historical lens can reveal a surprising amount about the human experience. What's an all, if you'll excuse the pun? And we don't just stop at sex. Expect outrageous scandals throughout the centuries, as well as probing into everyday issues, the nitty gritty of human life that really connects us to all people throughout history. Join me, Kate Lister, every Tuesday and Friday on Betwixt the Sheets to find out more. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Right. Time to slide out of here and avoid the bedpan. And it sounds like the dome of the Duomo has always been kind of slightly delicate and at risk. And as you say, it's constantly reinforced with these belts of various kinds to keep it together. But more generally, the cathedral, has it ever come close to to being destroyed? Has the building ever been in any real danger? Because obviously we see lots of cathedrals undergoing problems that most recently the fire at Notre Dame, I guess. Has anything like that ever happened to the Duomo? There's been sort of bits and pieces happen. It's actually been quite lucky in some respects. It's not been as badly hit as, say, you know, your Minstow, 567, Notre Dame. Actually, many of the the Gothic cathedrals, it's not been as hit by conflagrations or anything like that that I can think of as well. But what it did see quite a few times is again, it goes back to the kind of architectural issues, if you will. But it has seen what to do with the Duomo again, the actual Duomo. It's seen bits and pieces fall off. It's seen lightning strikes. And as a result, had the lantern, etc. Had to be rebuilt. They're the main things that I can think of. We quite often think about lots of cathedrals having disasters collapsing, falling down, burning down, all of those kinds of things. If it's escaped all of those, it seems like it's had a reasonably charmed life. Particularly lightning strikes, I suppose, whether that's luck or not. Depends how you look at them. But it has had quite a few of those. There's even a sort of, I don't know if you call it, memorial plaque, but just outside, which shows where the lightning struck and where the where the lantern came off and hit the pavement that's still there in the Renaissance era. This not not recently, this was in the Renaissance era. I suppose the only other thing, which is quite important, that it's seen was during the Second World War. I think it was 1944 in the Battle for Italy. It did see some bombing during that era, of course, being, you know, the primary target within Florence. And it sort of there was a few sort of close shaves. I believe I believe there's a few windows here, but nothing nothing too catastrophic or anything, anything like that. So in a way, it's been slightly lucky, I suppose. Yeah, it seems like a bit of a charmed existence to some extent. In Assassin's Creed 2, players get to to explore the cathedral and you can head down and discover hidden tombs underneath the cathedral. Do you know of anything kind of surprising, any discoveries that have been made at the cathedral? There was the Brunelleschi's tomb actually was lost for quite a while. And that was found in, I think it was the 1970s actually. They knew he was buried there. And then when they were doing some works in the crypt, they found, I think it was just a marble slab and it said, you know, he lies the body of Philippa Brunelleschi sort of thing. And so they reinterred him in the main cathedral. So I do know that was the case. I think he was the only other one of the only people to actually be buried within the Duomo itself as well. So that's quite an important one. And what's interesting about that as well against like tangent, but I do always remember that he had a wax impression taken off his face as well. So he is, you know, which wasn't entirely common for someone of, I don't want to say of his status, but you know, but obviously his status rose because he built this fantastic, fantastic cathedral. But, you know, at this time, wax impressions were largely reserved for royals, saints, you know, patrons of cathedrals, that sort of thing, taking the religious context. But they did they did take one of his too. So there are there are certainly tombs and crypts, but it's not when I say crypt, I just mean the sort of undercroft crypt where you would bury saints, you would bury people. So it all sort of makes sense, but nothing too too odd in Duomo. That we found yet. That we found yet. What would you say is the the kind of legacy of the Duomo? Is it still a significant building today? Well, of course, it's it is the Cathedral of Florence. So it's always going to be a very important building. It is the most important building in some respects. And it's been there for, you know, a thousand years, essentially, really. From my perspective, its legacy is that Duomo itself is that dome. It is Brunelleschi's invention. It was just never really done anywhere else. It was never really repeated. And the fact that this was engineered and executed by someone who just wasn't a master mason. And I mean, to me, that's fascinating enough. And I think also if you look out at the Florentine skyline within the game, within Assassin's Creed, that's what it's known for as well. You just have to look out and you see that beautiful marble white with the sort of etched black within it, you know, just that sort of black and white. There's elevations mixed with that great brick Duomo and those great sort of ribs coming down, which echoes and mirrors the the architecture of Florence itself. And it's, you know, the red pantile roofs. It just it looks like it's always should have been there. It looks like it just perfectly fits in. But then at the same time, it's just so commandeering and dominant within that and dominating within that streetscape. That there's just nothing else like it. And with that little lantern on top and with the great overlay windows, is to me, that is its legacy. It's just it's never been repeated elsewhere. There's just nothing else like. Yeah, fascinating. And before we finish, if I was able to to give you access to the animus, to to send you back into history, to relive a moment in in the Duomo's past, is there a moment you would like to see or an aspect of the building that you would like to see at its height? I know what I would like to see. I would like to see Brunelleschi stood in front of the opera, planting his egg on the table and effectively saying to them, watch me, watch me do this. I think that would be absolutely fascinating to be a fly on the wall in the 15th century to see him do that and then to see him do it, to, you know, to see him actually execute it. I know that's a bit of a cop out there, but I would just love to. I'd love to see him do that and prove them all wrong. Yeah, I think that's the thing that that stuck out to me from the story as well. The idea that this guy who's just not an architect will take his engineering knowledge and think, you know, this thing that someone no one's been able to do for decades and decades and decades. I'm going to do it and I'm going to show you I can do it by smashing an egg on the table. Just. But it does. It blows your mind. And that building still stands today. It's I mean, I can't think of anything really quite as ingenious as that. And, you know, and the fact that he created so many inventive solutions to problems, you know, such as, oh, my workman need to eat. I'm going to build them, you know, kitchens up in the Doma effectively. We need a reverse gear. I'm going to invent one. You know, we need a hoist. I'm going to invent one. It's it's just fascinating that he was such an ingenious man. Yeah, it's one of those kind of engineers that just has that problem solving mind, you know, he doesn't see roadblocks. He just sees things that have to be solved. And and then you press on to the next thing that has to be solved and you just work your way through it. But I think if I could abuse my time traveling power, I might go back to that meeting and open a book with all the people making the decision on whether Bruno Eski could do it or not. I wonder what you'd have got from all of them, because I imagine lots of disbelieving faces when he's saying I'm going to do this. They did. They did. They effectively did. If you if you read my book, I do go into this. There is a little bit of documentary evidence of what was sort of said and who said what. But they were very, very sort of dismissive of him at first. Absolutely. There is I I do start my I think it's chapter 16 in my book. I do start my book by going into this scene, if you will. And it does it exactly. It really does that. And it's effectively like, OK, well, watch me sort of thing. That's that's the sort of sentiment he had. And he did it. One more reason to read the book. And I guess the jokes on them, because Bruno Eski's got his his Duomo up there and he's buried underneath it as well. Hundreds of years later, it's still standing. And he clearly knew what he was doing. Clearly did most of it. Yeah. For the most part. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us, Emma. It's been absolutely fascinating to get under the skin of this building to understand how it came to be. And maybe there's lots there for players to look out for next time. They're clambering over the Duomo in Florence. Thank you very much for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. In the next episode, we'll concentrate on one infamous incident in the history of the Duomo de Firenze, the Patsy conspiracy. Don't forget to subscribe and follow Echoes of History wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're enjoying it, you can leave us a review, too. I'll see you next time among the Echoes of History.