Camomons survey

Hi Camomons council!

Firstly I'd like to say it's hard to answer the first question about the metagame because, Camomons's ladder is a bit dead and there was no tournament recently to judge properly the state of the metagame. Indeed, the most recent tournament which included Camomons was the WCoOMs ended in January. And since that, the last Camomons tournament was between June and August. So as you can see, it's hard to have a good idea of the state of the metagame right now (despite the metagame probably hasn't evolved so much). It would have been nice to launch a tournament, like the Open in other OMs, in order to have an objective and recent feedback on the state of the metagame before considering certain actions.

### ZERAORA ###

Zeraora is probably the most healthy on the list. Since the arrival of the DLC II, it won plenty of counters. Also, compared to the time he was banned, the speed control in the metagame has grown a lot (Espeeder, Rilla, increase of Choice Scarfer's viability, etc).

Zera is a really good Pokémon in Camomons but certainly not broken or unhealthy.

### SPECTRIER ###

The case of Spectrier is already more interesting. In Camomons, it can use Dark Pulse as a STAB and become Ghost/Dark. This typing provides it one weakness to Fairy which is a less common offensive typing compared to its previous weakness (Ghost and Dark).

For this one, I want to compare some point between its strengh in Camomons and its strengh in OU, where it was banned. Why ? Because I think the OU metagame is the closest to the Camomons metagame and some reasons pro or against ban it in OU also appears in Camomons.

* SPECTRIER'S CHECKS/COUNTERS AND THEIR VIABILITY

This is one of the most important points that was discussed in OU. Firstly, let's list Spectrier's checks and counter (capital letter) in the two metagame.

- OU:

Blissey, HYDREIGON, ZARUDE, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar

- Camomons:

BLISSEY Fairy/Normal, Tornadus-T, Toxapex, Clefable,  Dark/Poison, Slowking(both), CLEFABLE Normal/Fairy, ARCANINE Normal/Fairy + FF, ZARUDE Dark/ + Jungle Healing, HYDREIGON Dark/

As you can see above, there's obviously more answer to Spectrier in Camomons compared to OU. Also, the "quality" of the checks (so we can say Counters) is better in Camomons. For example, Shadow Ball + Dark Pulse + Calm Mind + Substitute Spectrier is able to break Blissey in OU (despite the presence of Shadow Ball against it) so Blissey isn't a counter to Spectrier but just a good check in general.

Apart from the quality of the responses to Spectrier, there is also the question of their viability.

In OU, Blissey was bad in general. Dark suffered from the presence of Clefable and from a decline in utility with Urshifu-SS's ban. So we can say: "No, the responses to Spectrier in OU wasn't so good in the meta but you needed it otherwise you just lost against it".

That's why Spectrier is now banned from OU.

In Camomons, Blissey Fairy/Normal is good but loses against Steel variants of NP Hydreigon and Poison variants of NP Tornadus/Naganadel where Blissey Ghost/Normal is better. Dark/Poison is a good typing in Camomons and especially as SpD Wall. But Spectrier can possibly win against some Dark/Poison. For example, against Tornadus-T Dark/Poison AV, one of the best SpD wall in the tier and one of the best counters to Spectrier on the paper, Spectrier can win with WoW+Sub Ghost/Dark Spectrier.

0- Atk burned Tornadus-Therian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 71-84 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 Atk burned Tornadus-Therian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 60 Def Spectrier: 72-85 (21.1 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Knock Off isn't sufficient to break its Sub after the burn and Tornadus-T can't do anything appart from U-Turn... We can say: "TornaT can pp stall Spectrier with a lot of back and forth" but in fact, Spectrier can be Shadow Ball/Hex mono attacker with NP and, in that case, TornaT can't do anything.
Dark/Poison Clefable win if it's Unaware but he does'nt appreciate the burn especially because it's often a Knock Off absorber (so you will be chiped by hazards and the burn permanently).
Dark/Poison Toxapex (and Dark/Poison Slowking-g) is in a similar situation but benefits from Regenerator to survive over time.

All the Dark/Poison listed above are nevertheless excellent answers to Choice Specs Spectrier.

Slowking Ground/Water, Ground/Fire and Slowking-g Water/Poison, Fire/Poison can deal with some Spectrier's sets but not all. Fire variants prevents the burn but needed to keep their boots to be effective against Choice Specs. The others lose against CM+WoW Spectrier. Each of them may have some troubles against Choice Specs (SpD drop probabiliy and flinch probability). AV Slowking(-g) is a good reponse in general but, in Camomons, we don't really like momentum sponge.

Normal/Fairy Clef and K9 are hard counters to Spectrier.

Zarude is a really good response to Spectrier with the Dark typing and Jungle Healing.

Dark Hydreigon aren't as common but can deal with Spectrier.

More important, all of the Pokémon listed above are perfectly viables in Camomons! This is also the case for its Revenge Killer like Zeraora (Play Rough STAB to OHKO and more viable in Camomons than in OU) and Dragapult (doesn't die on Shadow Ball). Scarf are also better.

* SO MUCH POSSIBILITIES WITH A RESTRICTED MOVEPOOLS

As mentioned earlier, Spectrier has some checks but can pass certain of them depending of its set. There's also more niche possibilities we have not discussed but which exist.

Taunt: Appart from Regenerator, Taunt gives the possibility to Spectrier to prevents its checks from healing (or pivoting with Teleport). Can be used on Substitute.

Mud Shot: Dark/Ground Spectrier destroys Dark/Poison.

Uproar and Hyper Beam: Shadow Ball + Hyper Beam/Uproar, Nasty Plot/CM, Substitute. Crazy but can break Normal/Fairy (but become walled by Ghost/Normal lol).

* CONCLUSION

According to that, I don't think Spectrier is broken in Camomons. A bit unhealthy for sure but I don't think it should leave. Although I regonize that a Spectrier ban would not bother me because I don't find the Pokémon very competitive and a bit restrictive.

### PHEROMOSA ###

The definition of what a Sweeper is. Pheromosa has the best speed of the tier (without counting Regieleki but tbh Regieleki is just niche in Screens HO and isn't good overall) and amazing offensive stats (137 on Atk and SpA). He also has a great movepools with powerfull STABs like CC, Focus Blast, Outrage and Triple Axel and some coverage with Drill Run, Throat Chop, Poison Jab, Bug Buzz, Ice Beam and Shock Wave. Finally, it's one of the best offensive pivot in the tier with U-Turn.
But yeah, its defense are SO bad. You can kill it or revenge kill it with what you want.

Pheromosa puts here exactly the same problem as it puts in OU. But there's even so some differences.

Firstly, speed control in Camomons is more present than in OU. Camomons's metagame has especially more priority user like Entei, K9, Rilla, Zor which constitute a way to deal offensively with Pheromosa. Also Scarfer are more viables.

However, Pheromosa has other advantages in Camomons. It can choses which moves will be a STAB to maximise the dammage on the desired Pokemon/typing. Especially Ice Beam and Triple Axel to deal with Ghost or Fairy with Throat Chop or Poison Jab. It can also tried a typing which resist to SR to use effectively the Choice Band.

In Camomons, the strategy of "slow pivot" is really effective and, in general, there's a lot of pivots in Camomons since gen8. Pheromosa appreciate that a lot to come often and put a lot of pressure on the opponent's team.

In fact, there's only 2 counters to Pheromosa. Cresselia and Latias Water/Poison. Cresselia is more or less unbreakable for Pheromosa but:

252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 198-234 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Black Sludge damage

252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 222-262 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

However CB isn't easy to use in Camomons considering the Ghost for example.
Boots Pheromosa lost some power but is probably one of the best set actually, maybe ahead the CB . Pads is also a good item against RH and contact ability which search to prevents Pheromosa from clicking U-Turn but generally outclassed by boots.

I don't forget QD Pheromosa but isn't so good here and extremely MU reliant (no priority, no neutral typing SpD wall, etc). Nevertheless, it remains a menace as you can see in that replay:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8camomons-1247874037-l0zdjdgoxkz61ypoah7b6p4aox9pqjipw

Timid Tran briantly lured Rilla T1 and Pheromosa ended up sweeping.

Finally I will not say Pheromosa is broken but I really think it's unhealthy and probably should be go. It puts a lot of pressure on the teambuilding and in game. Its Ice coverage prevents us to block it with classical mon like TornaT Fight/Fly. In fact, you can't deal with Pheromosa without an hard physical wall but you can't use classical physical def typing like Fly/Fight, Fly/Ground, Fly/Steel, Dragon/Fly, etc.

### HYDREIGON ###

Hydreigon is the perfect Pokémon in Camomons. Access to great typings offensively and defensively, a talent which paire very well with a lot of typings, NP to break everything, Roost to assured its staying power. A decent speed too but not so great.

No seriously, why Hydreigon is still in Camomons? It's impossible to deal with Hydreigon without having to temporize. The best way to prevent Hydreigon from destroying your team is to count on neutral typing like Ground/Water or Poison/Dark with an amazing SpD and to switch with TP/U-Turn/... on a powerfull RK.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 363-426 (92.1 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. Assault Vest 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tornadus-Therian: 277-328 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Imagine with Rocks...

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 413-487 (57.8 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Blissey Ghost/Normal is definitively the best response to Hydreigon especially with TW and Teleport.

But don't forget that Hydreigon have access to Taunt and Subsitute to prevent Teleport/TW or to prevent RK.

The best Hydreigon overall is obviously Dragon/Steel with an amazing defensive and offensive typing + immu Ground + immu Toxic. But ngl there's MANY versions of Hydreigon and it's absolutely impossible to deal with each of them. Generally you have to use slow pivot + Close Combat like Phero/Zera/Zap-g/Barra/Lycan, HJK Cinderace or Scarf Superpower LandoT against Steel variants but what about Ground/Water, Ground/Fire, Ground/Fly, Dragon/Fire, Dragon/Ground or Dragon/Water?

And Fighting typing isn't so good offensively in Camomons because it's easy to be lured by a Ghost. But, once again, a strong and fast user of a Fightning move isn't the assurance to RK Hydreigon.

But STAB + Roost + NP isn't the only set of Hydreigon. We can also imagine some DD shit! And Hydreigon isn't really outclassed by Mew/Dragapult in this role in fact. Hydreigon is also a good Deffoger. Finally, it can also play Specs/Scarf with U-Turn for the momentum.

Have you considered the idea of unbanning Palkia (or Dialga or Reshiram)? Is Palkia better or worst than Hydreigon in Camomons in your opinion? The answer to this question may be less simple than you think. But I'm sure that Palkia will be broken in Camomons!

Hydreigon is extremely restrictive defensively and offensively. It has plenty of sets and an amazing movepools. This Pokémon is abolutely not balanced, please, just ban it.

### TORNADUS-T ###

I know you wanted to ban it ITH :p And in fact, with the addition of NP to its incredible movepools, you were not wrong in principle.

The case of TornaT is complicated tbh. Certain set like Fly/Fight RH are perfectly fine and really help to balanced the meta. Poison/Dark or Steel/Bug AV are incredible for its utility with Knock Off and U-Turn. However, it's not an omnipotent SpD wall + pivot with the arrival of Blissey and Slowking with TP. But others like Fly/Poison, Dark/Poison, Dark/Fire, Poison/Fire, Fight/Fire with NP are more problematic tbh. But isn't impossible to deal correctly with this ones. Indeed, Pokémon like Slowking(-g) or Reuniclus AV can check effectively many of them. TornaT AV itselft in a reponse against it. Zeraora, Dragapult and Pheromosa can revenge kill it. Also, Scarfer like LandoT, Urshifu, Latios are potentially able to rk TornaT.

In OU, TornaT NP isn't so good because you have to run Hurricane for a decent STAB and Focus Blast against Tran, Ttar, etc. And this isn't good for a setup sweeper to have a 70% chance of hitting his attack lol. It can be hard to deal with NP TornaT despite that but the pivot version is so good and eclipse partially the unhealthy aspect of the NP version.

In Camomons everything is exacerbated. Its utility sets are better in general and more numerous and its NP Offensive sets are so much better. Indeed TornaT can run moves like Heat Wave, Sludge Bomb, Dark Pulse and Psychic as STAB. Poison/Dark NP won against Blissey and can break the others Dark/Poison in the long run. Poison/Fly and Dark/Fire NP has a good defensive utility.

But is TornaT the most powerfull setup sweeper in the tier? In fact, TornaT has the competition of Naganadel. Naganadel also has Sludge Bomb, Dark Pulse and NP for example. It also has Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse and Thunderbolt. Yeah TornaT has Regeneretor but Naganadel has Roost and a better ability for a Setup Sweeper. Naganadel isn't the only competitor! Spectrier, Latios, Alakazam and the less common Azelf and Raikou are also good setup sweepers with high speed.

The main difference between TornaT and the others is its incredible versatility and its capacity to try again with its decent bulk + Regenerator. For example, you can't say directly if the Dark/Poison TornaT of the opponent is AV or NP and he can take advantage of this.

So what?

Honestly it's hard to say if TornaT if unhealthy or not. Nevertheless I think it should stay in Camomons. Atm, its presence has, in my opinion, more advantages than inconveniences.

Sorry for my bad english as usual (maybe I made some progress since?) and thanks for your attention.