Human Racial Ontologies and their Effects

10:55:43 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: Do you like Ben Shapiro?
10:56:14 PM+LowInformationVoterI like and dislike various aspects of Shapiro.
10:56:28 PM+LowInformationVoterI thought his recent tweet thread about the Left being responsible for racism on the right to be asinine.
10:57:50 PM+DoubleDiamondTimei strongly dislike ben shapiro
10:58:04 PM+DoubleDiamondTimei want to give him a good solid punch in the face and watch that kippah fly off his head
10:58:59 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeboth the left and the right are responsible for racism
10:59:12 PM@xsnlxhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-24/mueller-says-fbi-properly-searched-manafort-stora...
10:59:20 PM+LowInformationVoterRacism is predominantly a right-wing problem, at this point in American history.
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10:59:43 PM+LowInformationVoterRacism/authoritarianism has been concentrated in the right since the 1964 political realignment.
10:59:59 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeracism in general isn't a big problem at this point in american history
11:00:05 PM@xsnlxracism is nearly universal, it's illegal discrimination that we're trying to curb
11:00:37 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: What three things do you consider to be big problems facing America?
11:00:38 PM@xsnlxDD, that sounds like the perspective of a white male
11:00:53 PM+LowInformationVoterThe biggest problem facing the USA right now is the GOP.
11:01:06 PM+LowInformationVoterWhich has become an organized crime faction/fascist organization.
11:01:18 PM+LowInformationVoterThe second biggest problem is the concentration/organization of media.
11:01:25 PM+LowInformationVoterThe third biggest problem is wealth inequality.
11:01:28 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeLowInformationVoter:  wealth inequality, militarism, and culture
11:01:39 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: Those seem like reasonable items.
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11:02:03 PM+LowInformationVoterI agree that racism is probably not as significant as the items in our lists.
11:02:06 PM+DoubleDiamondTimexsnlx, i'm a white female
11:02:13 PMⓘ Debates set mode +l 61
11:02:18 PM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: There are no human races.
11:02:26 PM+LowInformationVoterI just wanted to clarify that @ "white male".
11:02:38 PM+LowInformationVoterWhite only has meaning in regards to cultural groupings.
11:02:52 PM+LowInformationVoterI recommend abandoning the term "white".
11:03:21 PM+LowInformationVoterHaving cultural descriptors that are connected to skin color, given the history of racism and race ideology, seems like a terrible idea.
11:03:42 PM+DoubleDiamondTimethese aren't even cultural descriptors though
11:03:47 PM@xsnlxrace is the first thing we notice about a person after gender
11:03:54 PM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: There are no human races.
11:03:58 PM+DoubleDiamondTimexsnlx, speak for yourself
11:03:59 PM+LowInformationVoterTherefore, it is impossible to notice it.
11:04:09 PM+DoubleDiamondTimethe first thing i notice about a person is how they dress
11:04:12 PM@xsnlxI'm speaking for normal behavior
11:04:20 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeif we lived in a nudist world, perhaps you'd be right
11:04:55 PM+LowInformationVoterThe first thing I notice about a person is their gender/emotional disposition.
11:05:02 PM+LowInformationVoterThen probably dress.
11:05:35 PM+LowInformationVoterI remind myself repeatedly there are on human races.
11:05:54 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd that humans have a continuous variation in various traits, like hair color, hair shape, and skin color.
11:06:08 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeso...ethnicity?
11:06:09 PM+LowInformationVoterI definitely do not repeat scientifically disproven ideology about racial groupings.
11:06:34 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: I do not love the term ethnicity.
11:06:38 PM+DoubleDiamondTimethey're only disproven because of the labels applied to them at the time
11:06:38 PM+LowInformationVoterI prefer culture.
11:06:45 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeit's not culture, though
11:06:49 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeit's ethnicity
11:07:02 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeeveryone under the sahara is "black" but they are not the same ethnicity
11:07:11 PM+LowInformationVoterAn ethnic group, or an ethnicity, is a category of people who identify with each other based on similarities such as common ancestry, language, society, culture or nation.[1][2] Ethnicity is usually an inherited status based on the society in which one lives. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language or dialect, symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, art, and physical appearance.
11:07:22 PM+LowInformationVoterThat's a culture.
11:07:29 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeit can also be genetics
11:07:31 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: There are no black people.
11:07:50 PM+DoubleDiamondTimepeople are too scared of the idea that ethnicity is related to genetics
11:07:58 PM+LowInformationVoterIn English, the primary interpretation of "black people" implies it is a subtype of 'people'.
11:08:00 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeit's immediately labelled "eugenics"
11:08:09 PM+LowInformationVoterTypological notions of race are disproved.
11:08:24 PM+LowInformationVoterYou can also interpret "black person" as an object of class person with trait 'black'.
11:08:29 PM+LowInformationVoterI find this is not the common usage.
11:08:51 PM+DoubleDiamondTimehow about this:  most americans are mutts, some are european some are african
11:08:58 PM+LowInformationVoterI respect the empirical usage of race ontologies as used by myself and others.
11:09:01 PM+DoubleDiamondTimebut in africa and europe there remains distinct ethnicities
11:09:09 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: There are no European people.
11:09:16 PM+LowInformationVoterYou can say there is a European culture, though.
11:09:16 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeof course there is
11:09:18 PM+LowInformationVoterThat has no meaning.
11:09:22 PM+LowInformationVoterOops.
11:09:25 PM+LowInformationVoterThat has some meaning.*
11:09:30 PM+DoubleDiamondTimepeople from europe are europeans
11:09:35 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: There is no Europe.
11:09:39 PM+LowInformationVoterIt's a human idea.
11:09:41 PM+DoubleDiamondTimemy ancestry goes back to europe
11:09:48 PM+LowInformationVoterJust as there is no Africa.
11:10:07 PM+LowInformationVoterAfrica -- as a concept -- is mostly about two centuries old.
11:10:12 PM+LowInformationVoterHumans are about 200k years old.
11:10:12 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeokay, great, rainbows for everybody, doesn't change the fact there is a difference between europeans and africans, genetically
11:10:31 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: There are genetic differences between humans living in Europe and humans living in Africa.
11:10:32 PM+DoubleDiamondTimefor example, europeans are more likely to have neanderthal DNA while sub-saharan africans have none
11:10:36 PM+LowInformationVoterThere are no European humans, though.
11:10:39 PM+DoubleDiamondTimethis is a fact
11:10:55 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: If you mean "European" to mean 'human in Europe', that is fine.
11:11:03 PM+LowInformationVoterThat is not how most human brains interpret it, though.
11:11:04 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeyes, that is exactly what i mean
11:11:14 PM+DoubleDiamondTimereally?  how else to interpret "european"?
11:11:55 PM+LowInformationVoterClass European Human extends Human {}
11:12:09 PM+LowInformationVoterThat is the primary interpretation.
11:12:17 PM+LowInformationVoterHumans tend to think of terms of subtypes rather than traits.
11:12:21 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeokay, but "european" as a category still exists
11:12:29 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeit's not a separate species
11:12:34 PM+LowInformationVoterCategories only exist given a schema.
11:12:42 PM+LowInformationVoterYes, there are schema in which European is defined.
11:12:47 PM+LowInformationVoterThat is useful for some problems.
11:13:05 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeLowInformationVoter, i don't think anyone is saying that people from different parts of the world are different species
11:13:11 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: In English, we use 'to be' for both permanent and temporary characteristics.
11:13:31 PM+LowInformationVoterIn Spanish, they have ser and estar.
11:13:44 PM+LowInformationVoterIt's not precisely clear which type of 'to be' we are using when we say "I am European".
11:13:55 PM+LowInformationVoterIf you mean it as, I am chatting in #debates, that is fine.
11:14:01 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeLowInformationVoter, is your big revelation that race doesn't exist because we are all homo sapiens?
11:14:04 PM+LowInformationVoterThat does not appear to be how people use it.
11:14:17 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: Races were disproved in the 1970s.
11:14:35 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: Races are not different species.
11:14:38 PM+DoubleDiamondTimethat doesn't mean that differences don't exist
11:14:56 PM+LowInformationVoterRace is a poorly defined concept that means something like 'large, disparate gene pools'.
11:15:02 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: That is a non sequitur.
11:15:21 PM+LowInformationVoterNobody with the level of nuance I am showing in this conversation needs to be reminded that 'differences exist among people'.
11:15:23 PM+DoubleDiamondTimerace isn't really used that way anymore
11:15:28 PM+LowInformationVoterDifferences exist between my own cells.
11:15:36 PM+DoubleDiamondTimerace is typically used to refer back to the socially constructed meaning
11:15:37 PM+LowInformationVoterAs molecular chimerism is common.
11:16:06 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: Cognitive neuroscience demonstrates to me that humans are very poor at redefining words with intense historical meaning.
11:16:11 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeso if you are going to claim that "racism" is a problem, you have to grapple with that, not science from the 19th century
11:16:18 PM+LowInformationVoterWe are fooling ourselves if we believe we can just redefine 'race' to something modern.
11:16:24 PM+LowInformationVoterThere is no need to do that -- just use a different word.
11:16:33 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeLowInformationVoter, how is racism a problem in america in 2018?
11:16:43 PM+LowInformationVoterWhat?
11:16:50 PM+LowInformationVoterI don't understand the relevance.
11:16:57 PM+DoubleDiamondTimei want to talk about racism
11:17:00 PM+LowInformationVoterOkay.
11:17:13 PM+DoubleDiamondTimebut the type of racism you are talking about doesn't exist any more
11:17:20 PM+LowInformationVoterYes, it does.
11:17:30 PM+LowInformationVoterThough, it is diminished -- agreed.
11:17:37 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeit is totally irrelevant...the only relevant type of racism that exists is the socially constructed variety
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11:17:50 PM+LowInformationVoterI disagree with your usage of an absolute qualifier.
11:18:00 PM+LowInformationVoterI agree with a large portion of your claim, though.
11:18:11 PM+LowInformationVoterWe can discuss our area of agreement.
11:18:35 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeLowInformationVoter, why is racism still a problem in the USA?
11:18:40 PM+LowInformationVoterI think racism has two primary problems:
11:18:53 PM+LowInformationVoter1 - Usage by the state to directly cause excessive suffering in some citizens
11:19:03 PM+LowInformationVoter2 - An inefficient classification scheme
11:19:14 PM+DoubleDiamondTimecan you give an example of #1?
11:19:45 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: 'Race' as being correlated with longer and harsher criminal justice outcomes.
11:20:39 PM+DoubleDiamondTimedo you mean "black"?
11:20:42 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: 'Race' as being correlated by law enforcement officers with usage of disproportionate, non-lethal violence.
11:20:53 PM+DoubleDiamondTimebecause it seems only young black males seem to really be sufferring from this
11:21:13 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: If you apply the current racial scheme to Americans, your racial designation predicts some of your criminal justice outcomes.
11:21:18 PM+LowInformationVoter'Black' is just one of those categories.
11:21:30 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeand you think this is because the system is being racist against them
11:21:32 PM+LowInformationVoter'Current racial scheme' points to the current version in the US Census, etc.
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11:22:01 PM+DoubleDiamondTimeLowInformationVoter, do black men commit crime at a commensurate rate as white men?
11:22:11 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: Criminal justice outcomes are multifactorial. Race designation (I am dropping the use of quibble marks) explains some of those outcomes, yes.
11:22:18 PM+LowInformationVoterDoubleDiamondTime: That is a non sequitur.