the SAUce
WOW. JUST WOW.
dawncle sans
Hm?
the SAUce
Someone crawling up my ass because I dared to question a plot hole.
dawncle sans
Oh.
the SAUce
I'm so tired of people just screeching at me for asking a simple question because I'm sorry! I'm not a psychic! I can't read minds!
the SAUce
I'm just... so professionally done with emotionally unstable people.
the SAUce
This is just plain ridiculous.
dawncle sans
Yeah, it got old a while ago.
the SAUce
GOD.
the SAUce
I don't even know what the fuck is going on there but ALL I ASKED was "is there a reason for this or is it maybe just overlooked" because it doesn't take more than a single line of text to clarify
the SAUce
WOW
dawncle sans
Right.
dawncle sans
But the problem I see coming up over and over is questioning itself is seen as hostile.
the SAUce
Instead I have some nefarious purposes or schemes or I don't even know what the deal is anymore lmao
the SAUce
This is just crazy, completely crazy
the SAUce
I don't even know how to respond to this other than being like wow calm urself and your conspiracy theories
dawncle sans
Eh, some people are constantly keyed up for a fight. Don't worry about it.
the SAUce
I know, right? I'm always wondering what is going on in someone's life that they're so aggressive and combative at hello
the SAUce
It's really troubling that this is allowed too? I mean it's legitimately bullying behavior on a consistent basis... it's just not okay or mature
the SAUce
Just totally off the rails unreasonably combative XD
dawncle sans
Well, what can you do?
prpl pen
ugh. the same person?
мєgα ωєєηιє у
wow, people in this game seriously don't have any chill left at all.
мєgα ωєєηιє у
I really don't understand why asking a simple question that has been an issue for a while is a problem that has to be thrown back at someone like a freaking spear
kc.
Over asking what Quicksilver's official response was for the last few months? Ngh, I'm sorry, it's a legitimate question asked
Tagthirsty
this is why I don't ask anything
Tagthirsty
I just ignore everythin
the SAUce
Right? Again, getting attacked and bullied and I just feel like quitting!
the SAUce
I just want to know how I'm supposed to ICly react to something... God!
the SAUce
I don't deserve to be lashed out at like this and it's been going on for months and it's just not okay
dawncle sans
While this isn't the reason I'm leaving (dream job, mba, awesome shit happening in my life are) but how hostile it's been doesn't help.
dawncle sans
I've been scratching my head for months.
the SAUce
I'm upset because this is just so completely abusive and there is no excuse for this
Tagthirsty
it's so immature
dawncle sans
It's weird.
the SAUce
I love this game but holy hell I wish this toxicity would stop!
the SAUce
I just feel like that kid in class who keeps getting pants'd for wearing glasses lol
dawncle sans
LMAO
dawncle sans
What is even happening.
the SAUce
I'm sorry for being emotional, I'm just feeling so done with this... it's just not okay
how about no
nyoom
dawncle sans
Nah, I get you. This is p. exasperating.
Tagthirsty
Tagthirsty
I just focus on who is banging who
Tagthirsty
that's pretty much the main reason I'm in this game
Tagthirsty
cause it feels like everything else is a mess
the SAUce
This just keeps sucking all the enjoyment j have at this lovely game
Tagthirsty
/clings to you
dawncle sans
I can see why so many people agree but aren't willing to say so. It certainly isn't a safe place to discuss a differing opinion.
the SAUce
It's not, and I'm actually feeling so bruised by this and everything else that's piled up with this crap that I'm not even sure I want to be here anymore
dawncle sans
It's not what it used to be. Which is kinda sad but /shrugs.
the SAUce
It doesn't make me feel safe and fhdsjkg I'm actually crying over this all piling up over time
dawncle sans
I'm sorry :-(
the SAUce
It's just so gross, all of it
dawncle sans
Well, what can you do.
the SAUce
I just wanted to know how to react because it seemed like there was fallout but I couldn't see where it was coming from... I don't have a crystal ball, so I ask questions
the SAUce
Why is that so wrong
dawncle sans
It's like a hostile work environment, sometimes it gets to a point where all you can do is pursue a better opportunity elsewhere.
Jackiesaurus
:-( /hugs you tight
the SAUce
I just love my CR and this game but I just feel like trash all the time
dawncle sans
Well, it doesn't help when you ask questions and get weird drama over it.
dawncle sans
Like, seriously. I'm baffled. None of this makes any sense.
kc.
Sau, that's not how anyone should feel in any game they're in, particularly not for asking questions that make perfect sense, and haven't been answered elsewhere
dawncle sans
Because people are afraid LOL
dawncle sans
Retaliation is a high risk in a hostile environment.
the SAUce
I just feel like I can never do anything right, I'm just a horrible human being or whatever uighhgkhf
dawncle sans
No, you're not.
kc.
You're definitely not, and Dawn, I feel you're spot on the nose
the SAUce
I'm sorry guys, I'm usually not so emotional but this keeps happening and I just feel so horrible right now fhdsgk
dawncle sans
I mean, I'm a classy person, I've been dealing with harassment for speaking my mind respectfully and from a place of love and admiration for months.
dawncle sans
And I suffered in silence LOL
dawncle sans
Cuz, y'know, I want people around me to have fun.
kc.
Mm, sadly not the only one on that count either
the SAUce
I just feel invested in this game after being here for almost a year? But like
kc.
And yeah, for the same reason
dawncle sans
Thing is, the environment has gone toxic.
the SAUce
I feel so much like I'm not wanted and anytime I talk it's like FUCK OFF SAU YOU'RE DUMB
dawncle sans
The folks who call the shots are supporting, whether actively or passively, the behavior that makes it toxic.
the SAUce
Ughhhh my feelings are hurt lmao
the SAUce
It's just like WOW WHY IS THIS TOLERATED fhdsjkghdjk
the SAUce
I love you guys I'm just... feeling vulnerable and emotional
dawncle sans
I've seen some great people who made poor managers because of an avoidance of conflict; lots of people in charge - in work or outside of it - have a very tough time enforcing workplace civility.
the SAUce
I don't even think I can do anything about it because it seems like it's been supported, this behavior
dawncle sans
I mean this is literally a thing my MBA is based on LOL
the SAUce
It makes me feel so low
the SAUce
sooo low
kc.
Yeah, asdfklj I sound like a broken record, but it's like Dawn's saying
dawncle sans
I won't lie, I actually used the current situation as a case study for my 'Management of Hostile Work Environments' paper, because it made for a perfectly enclosed sample.
dawncle sans
(btw I got an A)
the SAUce
Yeah, I know like... academically and in practice at work but fhdsjkgh this is supposed to be my refuge, this RP thing I do
kc.
In so many ways that's so sad... though congrats on the A!
the SAUce
And I feel like utter trash
dawncle sans
I won't say 'don't be' because I know it's really not that simple.
the SAUce
Not the kind I joke about
dawncle sans
It's hard to be a whistleblower in any capacity.
the SAUce
But it's not even that, I just wanted to know how to take something ICly before acting on it...
shinya ☆
I'm not really up to date on the situation or who the participants in this are, but has this behavior been explicitly brought up to the mods?
the SAUce
I feel so intimidated though... because it always happens in the mod's view
dawncle sans
Well, objectively speaking, when I look at conversations like this, I see:
shinya ☆
I agree that if someone's being needlessly aggressive the mods should step in without being asked, but if they aren't, it may not be clear to the mods that they should do this without having it pointed out
the SAUce
so I just get all anxious and tight in the chest like omg is this accepted
dawncle sans
> reasonable question > someone losing their shit
the SAUce
do I even say anything
dawncle sans
And it's like how did we go from a 1 to an 11
the SAUce
Like I'm legitimately going through panic attacks over this shit
dawncle sans
To an extent, in a hostile environment, yes, it is implicitly supported, which is why a hostile environment remains hostile.
shinya ☆
I'd say at this point it'd be worth it PMing the mods and not responding to the person who's doing this and explaining to the mods why you're uncomfortable, citing the instances of the behavior
shinya ☆
and asking the mods to intervene because then it's not easy for the mods to just step back and implicitly support it by taking no action
dawncle sans
It takes a lot of maturity, poise, and level-headedness to steer a toxic environment back to something productive. A lot of managers are not up to the task.
the SAUce
That makes sense but then I just get so fearful and anxious because it's been going on for so long and it's overwhelming
shinya ☆
I agree, which is why I think in this case, it should be brought to the mods' attention so it has a chance to be corrected
shinya ☆
I'm not sure it'd be effective for someone else to do it other than the person who it's being directed at
dawncle sans
Yeah, thing is, all but a few of the people who feel the same way will not speak up for fear of retaliation.
dawncle sans
And I don't blame them in the least.
shinya ☆
It might be helpful to have someone go over the message prior to sending it, but it's not going to be as meaningful if it doesn't come from the person affected
shinya ☆
and understandable, it's hard to want to speak up when you're feeling attacked! but I also think that not speaking up guarantees that nothing will change
dawncle sans
Haha, tbh I know Sau tends to run her responses by a few different people before sending.
the SAUce
I should put my big girl panties on and say something, but it's a lot to go through.
dawncle sans
I know.
shinya ☆
which is why I would say to stop responding in public and just contact the mods privately so whatever the situation is can't grow any more
the SAUce
But I'm feeling so low, and so intensely anxious and intimidated now I'm wondering if I can do this
dawncle sans
You're brave to do so and honestly I wouldn't consider it worth the effort considering this has gone on for months.
the SAUce
It's so much easier to just back out of a situation
the SAUce
I just feel pretty beaten down right now, not the best mental place to be
the SAUce
GOD SORRY GUYS I'm being really a nuisance
dawncle sans
Nah.
shinya ☆
step away from the situation and take some time until you're not feeling so stressed by this
prpl pen
(cozy)
prpl pen
no, you're not
shinya ☆
playing in a game should be fun and if it's making you feel like this, take steps to remove yourself from the situation
the SAUce
shinya ☆: you're totally right, I know this I just need to calm my tits
prpl pen
and don't worry about it right now. if you're feeling that bad about it, take some time and you can decide what you want to do when you're in a better mental place
shinya ☆
no one's going to judge you if you don't feel up to saying anything. I definitely wouldn't, I know it's hard. but if you do feel up to it after you've gotten some space, it's the only way to get things changed
dawncle sans
Personally, what's the point?
the SAUce
Yeah, I guess I feel a bit like I tapped out my reserves all those times I took a step back and responded professionally
the SAUce
but then I kept getting attacked (keep)
dawncle sans
Usually what I see is someone brings up a reasonable point to the mods and then a player whiteknights while there's radio silence from the people it was directed to.
dawncle sans
The message is not being received.
kc.
Pretty much
the SAUce
It's really distressign!
the SAUce
That's my issue too because I'm like
the SAUce
....what if they're the mods
shinya ☆
I agree that that's a bad situation. but at the same time, if no one points it out to the mods, again, the behavior will just continue
dawncle sans
Well, yeah, it is so long as you continue to be invested in the game but at this point if input is not being received and players are not being respected, it has deviated from its mission of being a safe place
the SAUce
Like that's what's making me get so panicky too
dawncle sans
for adult roleplay and discussion.
shinya ☆
the only way to get that implicit support removed is by making the mods aware it's behavior that's out of line
the SAUce
Yeah that makes sense
dawncle sans
I'm not saying 'this is horrible and they're horrible' so much as 'I don't think they're ready to handle the responsibility'
shinya ☆
and if the person doing this is a mod and you bring up the concern and they blow it off, then that's awful, but at the same time, do you want to be in a game where that happens?
the SAUce
I mean I... hope I'm not the only one who notices this
dawncle sans
You aren't, lots of people have said so LOL
the SAUce
No, but it still hurts lol
the SAUce
I'll lose so much but... it's probably for the best
kc.
You are not, and Dawn brings up good points, which unfortunately I agree with
dawncle sans
thing is, lots of people say so but won't publicly because, again, fear of retaliation.
dawncle sans
Because they see what happens to you and anyone else who speaks up.
shinya ☆
I guess my POV is that it's just you have to either trust the mods to address concerns when they're directly brought up or you're in a game where you don't feel like you can, and in that case
the SAUce
Yeah... I feel like I bring up stuff but I get attacked and then there's silence and I feel kind of alone and it just heightens that anxiety
shinya ☆
are you really losing anything more than you would if you didn't bring it up?
the SAUce
I do have faith in the mods and the game, I really love it
dawncle sans
And then nothing changes, or the changes that take place are in direct opposition to the protests of the vocal playerbase.
the SAUce
I feel like a broken record that I keep saying this but... ahhh
dawncle sans
I don't. Not anymore. I used to.
dawncle sans
But when you foster a toxic environment I can't count on you to manage.
the SAUce
You're all helping, I deeply value your input despite my freaking out btw
shinya ☆
if you have faith in the mods, I'd say take some time to calm down and then bring this up to them, you're not going to lose anything by doing so if you're at the point where you feel
shinya ☆
like you're not comfortable in the game to start with
the SAUce
Yeah, yeah, I should just yank myself out of this cycle of anxiety
shinya ☆
but again, if you don't want to bring it up, that's your choice and no one's going to hold it against you
dawncle sans
Anyway, I'm around, Sau. I'm just gonna do some tags on a game that isn't aggressively stonewalling me
shinya ☆
most importantly, just take a step back and do something else for a while
the SAUce
You're all giving me a lot to think about and this is all very good points and advice and I love you guys for helping me during a low point in this fun thing we do
dawncle sans
That's sweet of you to still maintain a spirit of gratitude in spite of experiencing discomfort.
the SAUce
I'm sorry for my ugly moment
the SAUce
fdhsjkglhdsjklgdh
the SAUce
DAWN SHUSH
dawncle sans
Where's the lie? Go on, I'll wait.
the SAUce
(actually that made me feel better ily)
dawncle sans
dawncle sans
I love you too.
Tagthirsty
omg Dawn you are such a sweety
the SAUce
She's my rock, my strong sister
dawncle sans
I'm just Adulting, gosh.
Tagthirsty
Sau, it's okay to feel the way you feel
dawncle sans
(You wouldn't believe how many times Dawn Adulting results in people screeching about how 'stupid' I am. LOL ok)
the SAUce
Thank you, I want to think maybe people say these things because they're coming from a bad emotional place and maybe something is eating at them and I happened to be there...
dawncle sans
(/wipes non-existent tears of pain with her acceptance letter to the national honor society)
the SAUce
But also it REALLY SUCKS TO BE IN THE WAY?!?
the SAUce
LMAO DAWN
dawncle sans
the SAUce
Next year she'll be wiping tears away with a crisp 100 dollah bill
dawncle sans
More like next month, US govt pays alllll my student loans.
the SAUce
you're doing so well!
the SAUce
I'm really proud of you!
dawncle sans
Well, I'm proud of you, so there?
dawncle sans
Anyway I gotta do some tags. Hang in there. <3
the SAUce
I'm gonna... pour myself a strong drink I think
the SAUce
Everything can wait for another day
dawncle sans
I'm declaring 'Sau Time', go treat yo'self.
dawncle sans
Yep.
Jackiesaurus
You don't have to apologize, either. <3
the SAUce
I'm looking forward to next weekend! We'll see a show, go eat somewhere nice in the North End, stay at a hotel so we can go to high tea at that other place.... all the calories
the SAUce
Birthdaaaaay
dawncle sans
It's going to be AWESOME. Oh, and don't forget the spa day.
dawncle sans
Twins know how to do birthdays right.
the SAUce
You've all been so lovely to me, I'm really just clinging to all the positive energy you guys are giving me
the SAUce
JUST FEASTING ON THAT OKAY
the SAUce
SPA A
dawncle sans
Hey, thing is, you surround yourself by positive, even-keeled, intelligent people.
the SAUce
......A
the SAUce
DAMMIT PLURK
dawncle sans
lol
the SAUce
o A o
the SAUce
there
dawncle sans
the SAUce
....this face will give me nightmares
Tagthirsty
oh, the mods stepped in!
Tagthirsty
TWINS ARE THE BEST
Tagthirsty
cause I'm not biased or anything
the SAUce
Twiiiins
the SAUce
But yeah I see it, I understand the neutrality of the response and it's good they clarified that players will need to ask about this. That's really all I wanted to know is if I needed to go one way or another
Jackiesaurus
Spaaaaa
the SAUce
I feel so tired... ;;
the SAUce
A spa day would be so lovely...
❀Silver Fox❀
I don't think it's fair to put this on one players shoulders unless they were literally the only one being attacked
Jackiesaurus
It would. <3
the SAUce
I understand them taking the Switzerland approach, but I do feel like it seems like I did something wrong?
the SAUce
......:-(
dawncle sans
You really didn't.
the SAUce
Maybe it's just my low mood
dawncle sans
Like, objectively, you didn't do anything wrong.
the SAUce
I just have no idea how it even escalated like that... except I've seen it before like Cinders said, in other HMDs
shinya ☆
I don't think the mod response is placing the blame on you, if that helps.
dawncle sans
Yep.
the SAUce
No, I think it's them being neutral! I'm just feeling low so I need to segregate that part of me and think logically
dawncle sans
Heck, I got PMs from people jumping down my throat because I dared to breathe the words 'room for improvement'
the SAUce
That's just unreasonable D:
shinya ☆
and ❀Silver Fox❀ I agree, I definitely wasn't trying to say that it should be all on Sau. but just that for specific incidents, it's not effective if it comes from someone who's not involved
shinya ☆
because people are less likely to listen if it's a "concerned bystander"
the SAUce
Although I think a lot of my examples will come from those threads in HMDs and not all of them are from me
the SAUce
or to me
the SAUce
I should say
shinya ☆
a better way to do it might be to get everyone who's been involved in similar incidents to contact the mods, but just that it shouldn't be someone not involved doing it on their behalf
dawncle sans
IIRC, a previous HMD had Batty declaring dissenting opinions were invalid because they were the minority. More voices would be great but unlikely due to the hostility.
the SAUce
Ah, I guess that would make sense but at the same time I think many players have left since then
the SAUce
Dawn is leaving too
dawncle sans
Yeah, namedropping, fight me LOL
the SAUce
And I admittedly feel bad being like
the SAUce
hey guys complain for me
the SAUce
/COVERS FACE
❀Silver Fox❀
No it's not like that
dawncle sans
Well, admittedly, we've been hemorrhaging players who didn't like what was happening for months.
❀Silver Fox❀
We all just don't want to be attacked
dawncle sans
^
the SAUce
YEAH BUT it's like how do you start that conversation... 'hey do you like being talked to that way maybe you should complain' UGH ITS AWKWARD
shinya ☆
I agree, it's a hard situation
мєgα ωєєηιє у
Read through all this, and I highly agree. People are too afraid to confront the issues for fear of being attacked.
the SAUce
Especially since I'm not the type who likes to move people outside their comfort zones
мєgα ωєєηιє у
And that fear is justified because it's happening and being allowed to hppen
dawncle sans
Honestly? Not everybody feels it's worth going to war because they want to lend their voice to an opportunity for improvement.
the SAUce
If they haven't said anything yet, who am I to ask them to come to bat
мєgα ωєєηιє у
The mods shouldn't even let things escalate to this capacity.
shinya ☆
and I've had times when I also felt this player was overly aggressive but I think they skirt a fine line where they present it as their opinion so the mods probably feel like it's not their place to step in
dawncle sans
Nah, she has a reputation.
shinya ☆
without players coming forward to let them know it makes them uncomfortable
the SAUce
I've been consistently shocked by the aggression/hostility shown over months and I'm like D:
shinya ☆
because mods do feel like they have to be careful to be neutral. and in this case i think their response was fine if they're treating this as a problem between players
мєgα ωєєηιє у
They should not be allowing the fanbase to whitenight. That is not what being a mod is. These players don't hold the authority to make decisions or give input on questions or concerns brought up to the modteam
dawncle sans
Nah, mods should moderate. If they see abusive behavior they really should step in.
shinya ☆
but again if it keeps happening and no one steps forward to say this behavior at the time is unacceptable, I can see how it looks to the mods like it's small incidents
shinya ☆
rather than a more widespread problem
the SAUce
Mmm, that's a good point! And the mods are very busy, they have a lot of responsiblity
the SAUce
I can definitely see how it's hard to see the forest from the trees especially with what is basically just one issue
the SAUce
Among all the other unknowable things they're balancing
the SAUce
Also? I feel like I need to express my complete gratitude that I'm seeing different views and suggestions and interpretations so respectfully given
the SAUce
It's really lovely guys
мєgα ωєєηιє у
Well, the issue is, the "small incidents" are growing in number, and getting worse and more abusive.
Tagthirsty
here here
dawncle sans
Except for a pattern of whiteknighting aggressively over even the mildest of concrit on behalf of the mods, not once, but for months.
dawncle sans
A literal quarter of a year.
the SAUce
I know some of you are leaving soon... but... would you mind lending your voice to this too?
dawncle sans
That's no longer an isolated incident, but a pattern of behavior.
the SAUce
AGDHGKHDJKG It's a lot to ask
мєgα ωєєηιє у
I'm just a little stunned that the playerbase is allowed to basically override a decision, or make input on, a question or concern directed to the mods. That's not their place to make comment.
dawncle sans
It's only certain players, though. Anyone else is shot down, ignored, or stonewalled. :/
мєgα ωєєηιє у
Or it shouldn't be.
the SAUce
I mean if you don't want to, that's totally understandable too!
dawncle sans
Feel free to challenge me on this observation, but I'm pretty confident in it.
the SAUce
I mean you're moving on, it's not your problem!
shinya ☆
it might be helpful to gather up a list of the incidents where this has occurred to show the mods how it's a widespread problem?
the SAUce
Yeah, I think so? But also I feel like if it comes from just me it'll... not go well but that's just how the cookie crumbles
the SAUce
:-(
the SAUce
BUT
мєgα ωєєηιє у
Oh, I absolutely will lend my voice if necessary. I have nothing to lose anyway, but that I don't really follow the drama may not be strong input.
the SAUce
IDK I'm just dancing around the whole asking people to chime in
the SAUce
bc it's so awkward sob
dawncle sans
Well, ultimately that's up to people.
the SAUce
yeah
dawncle sans
Anyway, look at HMDs for the last quarter of a year. That's pretty much your list right there.
shinya ☆
no matter what, I still think you should take some time and calm down and not make a move on this right now
the SAUce
Yeah, I'm not touching this until I sleep, sleep is always the best medicine for me
the SAUce
And if I'm still not in the right place, there's always anytime later
shinya ☆
there's no need to stress yourself out more, come back to it and make decisions when you're feeling better
the SAUce
Thank you! I do feel better, I feel more level
the SAUce
It helps bouncing ideas off people who are so together
мєgα ωєєηιє у
I just don't enjoy the thought of people I like having to deal with this on a daily basis. It's not fair, they don't deserve it for just giving input and criticism.
the SAUce
It's not fair! But I also am trying hard to yank myself out of that cycle of negativity I can get stuck in... so you all have really been so lovely
the SAUce
Helping me logically work out this messy thing
мєgα ωєєηιє у
Yeah, I think it's best to just step back from this and decompress first.
the SAUce
I'm very grateful, thank you so much for helping me out!
the SAUce
You all took a lot of time to deal with this ands fhdjkshgjkd LET ME LOVE YOU
ᴄʏʙᴏʀɢ ᴘʀɪɴᴄᴇ
I didn't read everything but I'll beat up anyone who's mean to you
ᴄʏʙᴏʀɢ ᴘʀɪɴᴄᴇ
They think they're save because I'm gone but I love Sau so much!!
ᴄʏʙᴏʀɢ ᴘʀɪɴᴄᴇ
Safe *
the SAUce
I LOVE YOU it's okay... let's just sleep on it and let cooler heads prevail <3
the SAUce
You've been going through so much... don't listen to my dumb Internet things /PUTS A BLANKET OVER IT