the spy who fell to eng

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INDOXXI
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1
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Hello. Hi.

2
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Hello. About your book,
if you could call me back...

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on my mobile. Thank you.

4
00:00:32,160 --> 00:00:34,840
Please, hello, can you
call me? It's about your book.

5
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Thank you.

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Hello, hi, good afternoon.

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If you can call me,
I'm the subject of your book.

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Thank you.

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At around
one o'clock, Ashraf Marwan,

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an Egyptian super spy...

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fell off the balcony...

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in Carlton Terrace,
Central London.

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The medics were directed
to a small rose garden,

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he uttered a few
words and he died.

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When I was told,
my mind was racing.

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I asked myself, "Was he pushed?"

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"Did he jump?"

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The rumor was, especially in Egypt,
that it was not an accident.

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It was a murder.

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1948, in Palestine, Jews
declared the State of Israel.

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Over the next day, Egypt and
the Arab neighbors invaded.

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So, for years, Israel and Egypt

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hated each other.

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And Ashraf Marwan was one
of the greatest modern spies

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at the center of the conflict.

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Ironically Israel regarded Marwan as their best agent ever.
He was the number one source of Israeli intelligence.

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Few agents in history
provided such...

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splendid information.
Out of this world.

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His death is a mystery.

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The rumor was it was a murder,

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and just the day before he told
me that he feared for his life,

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but who did it?

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The Egyptian intelligence
killed Ashraf Marwan,

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because he was a traitor.

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The Israelis believe
that he was their man,

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but he tricked the Israelis
into taking him seriously.

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He served Egypt well.

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Ashraf Marwan's wife, Mona,

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she thought that he may have
been murdered by the Israelis.

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And when I think about it now,

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I'm still asking myself,
"Was I responsible?"

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I was the one who
unmasked him to the world.

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In 2007,
June 27th, I got a phone call

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about the mysterious death that
had happened just hours earlier.

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Of course, I'm intrigued.
Who wouldn't be?

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And as a journalist I wanted
to get to the bottom of it.

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The most pressing, immediate
issue was how did he die?

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Was it murder? Suicide?
Was it an accident?

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So, this is the place
from which he fell.

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He fell five floors down.

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The family insisted that he
had a whole set of plans,

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family functions to attend,

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he had a business
meeting on that very day

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in that building there.

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That's why the family believes
that there was just no truth

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to rumors that he could
have killed himself.

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I wanted to get to the truth,
but that turned out to be

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a lot trickier than
I first imagined.

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Well, the day he died,
I was waiting for him to phone.

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I thought that something is
wrong with the reception.

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So, I went up the stairs to see
whether or not he left me a message.

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But nothing.

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I have always been interested
in Middle Eastern wars.

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When I was in the
military it was known

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there was a super spy who worked

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with Israel's secret
intelligence service.

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But the Israeli military
censorship made sure

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that nothing is written about it.

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A great secret.

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Six Arabs killed here

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in the West Bank, seven in Gaza.

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When the Palestinian
uprising of 1987 started...

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...it was a turning point for me.

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I saw Israeli soldiers
beating a Palestinian.

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I said, "This is madness.

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You are inflicting on the
Palestinians the same pain

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that other nations have
inflicted on the Jews,

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and I'm not coming back until
the violence has stopped."

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"Big deal, Ahron Bregman
is not coming back..."

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And I'd emigrate to the UK.

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After I finished my PhD
on the Arab-Israeli conflict,

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I joined the Department
of War Studies

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at King's College London.

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Have we discussed the
spy here in class or not?

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Was it mentioned?

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Yeah, no.
Right.

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And I've published six
books you know nothing about...

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It's a joke. Don't use it.

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I'm using that.

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In 1998, I was a consultant
on a major documentary,

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and I interviewed the director
of Military Intelligence

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in Israel, General Eli Zeira.

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When we finished the interview,
we were standing

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in the corridor,
and what he said to me there

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changed everything for me.

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He said that the Mossad's
top spy was a double agent.

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I was shocked to the core.

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What were the implications
of the spy being a double?

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If he was a double agent

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during one of the most important
wars in Middle Eastern history,

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then all the intelligence the
Israeli's based their decisions on

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would be cast into doubt.

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Israel is dependent
on her intelligence.

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They have to get it right always,

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and if their best
spy misled them,

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it will just ruin the reputation.

107
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Therefore,
the intelligence service...

108
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Okay, Amos.

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...they have an interest...

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What was at risk?
What was at stake?

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...in keeping the story intact.

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It's a sensitive subject.

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The young Bregman
was uber-motivated.

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A scoop like this was something
I'd always dreamt about,

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but then I thought it might be
a very dangerous game.

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Ashraf Marwan was...

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the son of an army general,

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and people see in that
a sign of social seniority.

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He graduated in chemistry.

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At the same time...

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he met Mona, daughter
of Gamal Abdel Nasser...

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President in Egypt.

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They fell in love.

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He knew how...

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to jump to the good bed.

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He married the daughter of
Nasser. The almighty Nasser.

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Nasser was like
God for the Arabs.

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Idol.

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Nasser.

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1967, this was a crisis
moment for Nasser.

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Israel crippled the Egyptian
Air Force on the ground.

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And then,
Egypt lost the Sinai Peninsula.

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Egypt felt disbelief that this
could happen to us.

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It was a dent in the dignity
of the country,

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and the process of rebuilding
the army started

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for one objective,
launching a war,

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regaining the Sinai,

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and regaining the sense of pride
which every Egyptian felt...

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before 1967.

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Marwan entered
into the Nasser family

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at this moment of crisis.

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He wants to be important,
but Nasser didn't entrust

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into him the kind of missions
that Ashraf Marwan believed,

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"Now when I marry into the family
I'll get them."

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Nasser, he felt that this guy

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did not want to marry the girl
for her personality,

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he wanted to marry the daughter
of the President.

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00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:28,760
So, Nasser gave Ashraf Marwan a
junior position in the presidency.

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It was like when you have
adversary politician,

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you bring him close to keep him
under your eye,

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rather than leave him free
to wreak havoc.

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Ashraf felt in a way
demeaned, punished,

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and made him resent Nasser.

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So, he came to London
with his new wife.

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But reports back home...

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indicated that he was loving
an expensive lifestyle,

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nightclubs,

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restaurants,

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living beyond the means...

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00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,360
of the ordinary Egyptians.

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Nasser
lived a very frugal life

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and he felt that it was
highly embarrassing.

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Nasser shunted
them back to Cairo.

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Ashraf felt that he was
handcuffed with Nasser.

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So, he wants to take
revenge on his father-in-law.

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Israel leaders
call it a total destruction

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of Egypt's Sinai forces.

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Immediately
after the Six-Day War of '67...

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the issue of a possible war
down the road with Egypt...

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was the number one
priority of the Mossad.

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Every country,
every government

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has to deal with the intentions

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of our enemies,
and the more you know about it,

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the better you can prevent a war.

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So, military intelligence for the
Mossad was very, very important.

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The Mossad
is responsible for...

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collection and
special operations.

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This is not the CIA.
CIA deals with all the world.

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He has agent in South America,
in Africa,

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maybe in the Northern Pole,
I don't know.

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Ev... All around the world.
Here, in Israel, it is focused.

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The arch enemies.

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Can you describe
for me your job, your role,

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when you were
working in the field?

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No, I prefer not.

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So, '67, at that moment, we
started to look for intelligence

187
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,280
that would either support, or...

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00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,480
or the opposite, the issue of war
down the road with Egypt.

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00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,119
Did you have any concerns
about the possible implications

190
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,000
of unmasking a spy?

191
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,880
Look, Tom, the Mossad
could be very dangerous

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00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:48,080
and unmasking one of the spies
could have endangered me,

193
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:50,600
but I had to know.

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00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,720
It was a risk, it was a gamble.
I am a bit reckless.

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00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,440
What did your wife
have to say about all this?

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00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,960
I knew that she
would be unhappy...

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00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,599
to see me involved
in such a thing.

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00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,720
She was much more responsible
and less reckless than me,

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00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,080
so I told her nothing
of my spy games.

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00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,800
I poured over hundreds
of articles and books

201
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looking for clues
to see who he was.

202
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,120
And I read anything that
I could put my hands on.

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00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,959
And then a key book
came into my hand,

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00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,560
which is the biography
of Eli Zeira,

205
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,280
the man who said to me that
there was a double agent

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00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,520
who misled the Mossad.

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00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,280
Zeira writes about
an unnamed spy,

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00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:00,999
and then he mentioned
three people

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who were sitting in
a meeting in Riyadh.

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00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,440
King Faisal of Saudi Arabia.

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00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,160
Sadat and a third man.

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00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,039
I was very suspicious
when Zeira did not mention

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00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,159
the name of the third man
in a chapter

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00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,559
where it's all about the spy.
And you ask yourself

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00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,160
"Why is it missing?"

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00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:24,759
So, the fact
that it was missing...

217
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,439
Yeah, exactly.
The fact that there was

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00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,159
a missing piece of information...
It was...

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00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,400
It was an editing thing, you see?

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00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,160
"Why is it missing?"
Mm.

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00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,519
So, maybe the
name is not mentioned

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00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,640
because someone is
trying to hide the name.

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00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,840
But there is a reference,
Robinson, page 136.

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00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:52,400
136. And here is the third man,
Dr Ashraf Marwan.

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When I saw it all my red lights
started flashing.

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00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,560
My gut was telling me

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00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,960
that his name was significant,
Ashraf Marwan.

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00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:10,520
It was an educated guess.

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00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,120
And I sent a fax to Zeira,

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00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,120
hoping that he would react
and confirm the name.

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00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:29,240
I took a punt, but his reply was,

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"I will not reveal."

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00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,640
And this was a setback.

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00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,719
But I wonder if
there was something

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00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,480
in the fact Zeira did not deny,

236
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,480
so I thought that maybe
I am on the right track.

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00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:00,839
...and refused to negotiate

238
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:02,359
until they were removed.

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00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:04,959
This was the position when
the Arab world was dealt a blow

240
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,440
from which it's still reeling.

241
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,639
Now the explosive
situation in the Middle East

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00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:10,920
has been further complicated

243
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,080
by the unexpected death of
Egypt's President Nasser.

244
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,280
This man, Anwar Sadat,
took over as president-elect.

245
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,240
I swear
by Almighty God to uphold...

246
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,360
The big bosses
under the Nasser regime...

247
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:32,280
they were...

248
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,920
unsatisfied with Sadat.

249
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:39,560
There was a kind of rebellion...

250
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...and...

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00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,640
Ashraf was very cunning, smart.

252
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,000
Somehow Marwan got his hands
on an archive...

253
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,799
and turned it over to Sadat,

254
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,440
and Sadat used some of
the information in that archive

255
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,400
to put his enemies on trial.

256
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,360
Something
personal? Or of a public nature?

257
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,360
The truth
is in the court's hands.

258
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:13,920
It was
very consequential

259
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,479
in Marwan's future
career to prove to Sadat

260
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,439
that his loyalty to
him can come at a price

261
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,280
of stabbing in the back
Nasser's closest aids.

262
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,920
We must
make it clear to the public.

263
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,440
And Sadat rewarded him. He appointed Ashraf to
be... the secretary of the Presidential Office.

264
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,160
He was part
of Sadat's inner circle.

265
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,640
At the time, he was not 30 yet,

266
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,680
and that is the youngest man
in the job ever.

267
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,480
But knowing Ashraf Marwan,
every step is calculated

268
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,040
to build for what comes after.

269
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,240
I was pretty sure
Ashraf Marwan was the spy,

270
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,480
but I needed a conformation.

271
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:33,920
So, I thought that perhaps
the editor of Zeira's book,

272
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,200
Rami Tali, could help
with the name of this spy.

273
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:45,160
Obviously, the editor discussed
the matter with Zeira,

274
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,240
so I devised a plan.

275
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,520
I then took a flight to Tel Aviv.

276
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,640
Ronnie Bregman,
he wanted to make sure

277
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,400
that he has the right name.

278
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:05,680
I knew the name,

279
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,360
but I told him, "Ronnie,

280
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,800
I don't know the name, but if I
knew it I would not tell you."

281
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,040
"I don't know the name,"
"Don't make me..."

282
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,000
This was how it was done.

283
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:24,080
Ten minutes into the conversation
when he was warmed up,

284
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:29,960
but not yet tired of me,
I looked him straight in the eye.

285
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:31,600
And Ronnie said...

286
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,520
"I know the name
of the super spy."

287
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,200
And I said, "Good for you,"
and he said...

288
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,360
Ashraf Marwan was the super spy.

289
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:46,560
I was taken aback.

290
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:50,960
His response was unmistakable.

291
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,440
As far as I remember,
I did not acknowledge it.

292
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,560
He looked away and smiled.

293
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,040
Bingo.

294
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,800
How do you say the
English saying?

295
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,480
That butter would
not melt in my mouth.

296
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,520
Butter very much
melts in my mouth.

297
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,680
So, uh, when he approached me
with the name...

298
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,280
Yeah,

299
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,800
it was some kind of
an acknowledgment.

300
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,400
I returned
to London a happy man.

301
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:25,520
I had the name.

302
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,760
I was delighted, really.

303
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:30,840
Celebrating.

304
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,720
But I had to confirm
that he was a double agent.

305
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,240
Okay, so how did the Mossad
get involved with Ashraf Marwan?

306
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:47,880
He was a walk-in.

307
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,000
One day in London,

308
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,560
he decided to call
the Israeli embassy.

309
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,760
This is how moments
in history are made.

310
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,560
They are made out of pure luck,
because when he called the embassy,

311
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,960
luckily enough, the head of
Mossad stations in Europe,

312
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,880
Shmuel Goren,
was visiting the station.

313
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:30,640
I was the
head of Mossad in Europe.

314
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,480
Somebody called.

315
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,600
As soon as I heard the name,
it immediately rang a bell,

316
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,840
but I said, "No, it cannot be

317
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,600
that someone like him
would come to us.”

318
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,400
When recruiting
a new agent,

319
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,640
what are the risks to
you, to the Mossad?

320
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,519
To the Mossad, first that
he might be a double agent.

321
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,720
Number two, he's a liar.

322
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,200
And number three is that
he can surrender you,

323
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,040
which is very dangerous.

324
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,080
But being an intelligence
officer, if you are not...

325
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:10,000
suspicious as part of your
culture and character,

326
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,280
you stand a fair chance not to be a
successful intelligence officer.

327
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,640
And in the case of walk-ins,

328
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,560
it is even more important
to be suspicious.

329
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:31,160
But he said, "The son-in-law of the
Egyptian president is a walk-in?

330
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,000
We cannot miss that opportunity."

331
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:38,760
It was a gamble,

332
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,480
because the difference
in cases like these...

333
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,720
is between receiving the Medal
of Honor or facing disgrace.

334
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,080
So, we improvised...

335
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,720
against the official protocol.

336
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,120
And we scheduled the meeting
at the hotel that same day.

337
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,400
The conversation was short.

338
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:11,000
He gave us authentic minutes
from meetings in Moscow...

339
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,960
with the most high-ranking
Russian officials

340
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,640
and the most high-ranking
Egyptian officials.

341
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:24,680
To be a fly on the wall in these kinds of
meetings is the dream of any intelligence agent.

342
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,520
My task was to go over
the material he provided,

343
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,480
and we couldn't find anything

344
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,520
which gave us any doubt
about his credibility.

345
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,000
Okay, so what exactly
did you do to be certain?

346
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,640
Listen, there's no point to...

347
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,320
to... get into all the
details, but...

348
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,360
there was no one,

349
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,360
or no one case,
where anybody said, explicitly,

350
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,880
in a very determined way,
that he was not authentic.

351
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,120
Why would Marwan,
now that Nasser was gone,

352
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,359
and his ambition was being fulfilled,
he was the right-hand man

353
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:18,360
of the president...
Yeah.

354
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,160
Why would he want to sell secrets
to Israel?

355
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,960
Why did he do it?

356
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,759
To feel important,
maybe to take revenge

357
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,440
on his father-in-law,
and thirdly, financial reward.

358
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:41,319
All in all, the Mossad paid him $1
million in the '70s, early '70s.

359
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,480
It's a huge amount of money.

360
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:45,880
Everything
the Israelis say

361
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,280
suggests it was resentment
towards Nasser,

362
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,720
hubris, money...
And that doesn't add up to me.

363
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,560
You have to look at
the Ashraf Marwan angle.

364
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,000
"I am a big shot."

365
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,560
How did Marwan
spying for you work exactly?

366
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,800
He accompanied Sadat...

367
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,640
to meetings with leaders.

368
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:28,240
He listened and was able to
give us the inside information.

369
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,240
When the
Mossad met with Marwan,

370
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,320
the meeting,
it take place in London.

371
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,880
Marwan would provide
his documents.

372
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,520
He would get his money,
then he would leave first...

373
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,200
and the Israeli will leave after him. What was
so valuable about the information he gave you?

374
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:05,960
The most important pieces of information
which Ashraf Marwan gave Israel...

375
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,160
He brought the order of battle
of the Egyptian Army.

376
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,520
It means that Israel would know
how Egypt were going to strike.

377
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,319
And they would attack us only if

378
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,320
they have enough air cover
provided by the Russians.

379
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,840
It is very rare material.

380
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,800
It was, in my opinion,
an earthquake.

381
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,320
It was...

382
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:37,280
beautiful.

383
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,920
Beautiful. Really.

384
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,760
I tried to piece together
what happened to Ashraf Marwan.

385
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,160
Was it murder?

386
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,160
Was it suicide?

387
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,240
It is very interesting
to be here.

388
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:30,320
He was on this balcony here
and he landed in these bushes.

389
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,720
The family had always said
that the trajectory of his fall

390
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,800
was such that he fell away from the building to
such an extent that he must have been thrown.

391
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,800
You can only really see it
when you're in the garden.

392
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,559
You can start to see why
the family were arguing

393
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,600
it was bizarre

394
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,920
that he landed several feet out
into these bushes.

395
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:03,199
And when I spoke to
Ashraf Marwan's wife,

396
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,840
Mona, she thought that he may have
been murdered by the Israelis.

397
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,759
Based on this information,
it was difficult to believe

398
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,440
that he had just fallen
out as part of an accident.

399
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,400
I gathered a huge amount
of data during my research.

400
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,840
This is Eli Zeira
when he was young.

401
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,720
He was a good-looking man
and very clever.

402
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:38,840
Very clever.

403
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,240
I had the head of Israeli
Military Intelligence telling me

404
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,760
this spy was a double agent.

405
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,120
This could only make Israel
intelligence look bad,

406
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,240
so I had to take notice of it.

407
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,200
And then I uncovered something big
behind the meetings in London.

408
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:02,920
Marwan was reckless,

409
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,440
he would just do stupid things,
take chances.

410
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,760
He would phone the Israelis,
the embassy, directly.

411
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,279
Ignoring the careful system whereby
you should phone them indirectly

412
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,560
using a third party,
a lady in London.

413
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,679
Of course, all of the lines

414
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,160
could have been taped
by other agencies, by the MI6.

415
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,000
And he would arrive in meetings

416
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,880
driving the car of the
Egyptian Embassy in London.

417
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:42,000
The fact that Marwan was so
confident to do such things

418
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,439
in the open perhaps points
to the fact that he knew

419
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,799
that it's okay,
he was a double agent

420
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,360
and the Egyptians will accept it.

421
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,880
So, my conclusion is that
General Eli Zeira was correct.

422
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,280
The spy was a double agent.

423
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:06,920
Ronnie,
I've spoken to the Mossad

424
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,920
and what they are telling me
is pretty compelling.

425
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,919
I think that Ashraf Marwan

426
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,280
was not the person
the Israelis thought he was.

427
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:53,600
Okay for sound?

428
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:55,320
Ready?

429
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:56,600
Yeah.

430
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,639
Abdallah, Israel believe
Ashraf gave them everything.

431
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:02,640
Good for them.

432
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,520
Ashraf Marwan, I believe that
he served Egypt well.

433
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,640
He did it under
instructions from Sadat,

434
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,480
he did not do it out
of his own free will.

435
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:22,680
Albeit, he was prepared to play
the dangerous game.

436
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:33,920
When Sadat became president
of Egypt, his first priority

437
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:39,840
was to get back the lands
Egypt lost in 1967.

438
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:47,840
It was a holistic
movement within the country,

439
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:53,120
everyone coming together
for one objective,

440
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:59,160
launching a war, regaining the Sinai,
revitalizing the Arab world,

441
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,080
and creating a new spirit
for the future.

442
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,800
But knowing that the Israelis had

443
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,680
weapons from the United States
and western countries,

444
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,440
it had to have some
cunning in the plan.

445
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,680
And Sadat has played this
in the most perfect way.

446
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,040
Sadat wanted a very
convincing agent

447
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,880
to feed information
to the Israelis.

448
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:38,080
And...

449
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,880
Ashraf Marwan was the best actor
to play the part.

450
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:53,400
Everything was, like, stage-managed
to the highest possible standard.

451
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,520
They studied very well
the Israeli mentality

452
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,360
to create the image
to fool the Israelis.

453
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,000
And he did not go to
them on his knees.

454
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,600
He went to them full of himself.

455
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,080
The Ashraf Marwan angle...

456
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,920
a playboy, fun-loving
with a sense of pride.

457
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,360
"I am a big shot."

458
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,600
And he was very successful
in convincing them

459
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,840
that he is serious
about working for them.

460
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:37,360
Ashraf Marwan supplied the Israelis with
the Egyptian preparations for the war,

461
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,800
but not complete,

462
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,040
but the Israelis were very
happy with what he gave them.

463
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,040
So, he was accepted.
The information we got

464
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,200
comes along once
in a hundred years.

465
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,040
And they call him the...
"the agent of the century."

466
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,880
All under instructions
from Sadat.

467
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:12,919
There's this
double agent theory

468
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,280
and I would like your opinion.

469
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,480
No other country in the world

470
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,720
would allow this kind of material to
fall into the hands of their enemies.

471
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:21,920
He's a traitor.

472
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,920
He's just a simple traitor.

473
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,120
That's it.

474
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,440
How did the
information Marwan gave you

475
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:30,720
influence your thinking?

476
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,520
Marwan, he reported one of the
conditions for going to war...

477
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,000
was long-range bombers.

478
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,320
And the Russians,
they hesitated to provide

479
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,160
the Egyptians deep
bombing capabilities.

480
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,720
So, the Israeli evaluators
of the intelligence

481
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,880
were in the notion that
they are not going to fight us.

482
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,360
The underlying message
of all the information

483
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:08,480
given by Marwan
was that Egypt will not attack

484
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,800
before she got certain weapons.

485
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,440
But what the Israelis
didn't know...

486
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,200
was that Sadat decided
to go to war against them...

487
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:26,680
even without the weapons.

488
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,639
What Sadat needed
was to surprise the Israelis,

489
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,120
to catch them unprepared.

490
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:41,720
The key issue was how
to surprise the Israelis.

491
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,600
And Egypt felt the right time

492
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,720
is to attack them on Yom Kippur,

493
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,640
which is a holy day in Israel,

494
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,399
when the Israelis
don't listen to the radio,

495
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,000
television is off.

496
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,800
They are just insulated in the
synagogues and in the houses.

497
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,120
On the 6th of October, 1973,

498
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:21,880
the Egyptian units on the ground
were told, "Now!"

499
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,079
100,000
Egyptian troops

500
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,320
start crossing the Suez Canal.

501
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:34,600
Shoot!

502
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:40,160
Igniting their spirit
and mind and a will to win.

503
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:44,560
On the other side,

504
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,800
there are only 452 Israeli
soldiers.

505
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,640
The Israelis are caught
unprepared, off-balanced.

506
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,440
It did succeed in
crushing the myth

507
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,400
of Israel's invincibility,
and the first Israeli surrenders

508
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,160
were moments of rare triumph
for the Egyptian commanders.

509
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,840
The Egyptian surprise
was very successful.

510
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,120
Just like that...

511
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,840
The synagogue was full of people
all around here.

512
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,960
We started seeing
traffic on the streets.

513
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:56,800
The army came.

514
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,440
People were simply taken
onto the army vehicles.

515
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,520
I can tell you, it was all chaos.

516
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,000
I was mobilized, recruited...

517
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,240
then I headed to Sinai.

518
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,600
We believed that the
Israeli army is invincible

519
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,399
and the Arabs are inferior,

520
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,080
and that it would be
a stroll in the park,

521
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,600
but we realized that,
actually, it's not a joke.

522
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,840
We were bombarded from the air,

523
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,520
we were bombarded from the land.

524
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,560
We fought almost face-to-face
with Egyptian soldiers.

525
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,120
They were good fighters.

526
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:24,440
I saw people dying around me.
I was frightened all the time.

527
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,000
You think that this is the end.

528
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,680
They took
five kilometers of Sinai,

529
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,120
and they dug in,

530
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,040
and they rebuffed everything.

531
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,960
And actually,
our defense minister, Dayan,

532
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,520
came out on television
and talked to the nation,

533
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:09,120
and explained to us that
the situation is bad indeed.

534
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:11,680
The war is difficult.

535
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:17,560
Very harsh collisions,
on the ground and in the sky.

536
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,240
He looked down and said...

537
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,560
And we
are fighting for our lives.

538
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:30,840
Us, fighting for our life?
We were the heroes in 1967.

539
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:32,559
What happened now?

540
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,200
So, him on television
was a difficult moment in Israel.

541
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,080
When the war was over...

542
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,680
...the Egyptian people
were extremely happy.

543
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,240
Can I tell you something
which not many people know?

544
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,720
During the 1973 war days,

545
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,000
the rate of crime
dwindled to zero.

546
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:10,960
There was no crime.

547
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,400
No of fence at all, everyone...
united with everyone.

548
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,320
The one goal they had was

549
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,720
to regain their sense of pride
and dignity.

550
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:31,800
Ashraf Marwan...

551
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:38,160
...he enabled Egypt to gain
the surprise advantage.

552
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,919
The Egyptians are adamant
they got the jump on you in '73,

553
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,239
because Ashraf Marwan misled you.

554
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:53,320
But it's just the opposite, he
didn't... they didn't surprise us.

555
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:55,880
They gave us an early alert.

556
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:09,800
Before the war...
Ashraf Marwan,

557
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:14,600
he asked for a meeting,

558
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,920
gave the code word: "chemicals."

559
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,120
And he told him,
"Tomorrow, I'll be in London.

560
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:25,480
I want Zvika Zamir,

561
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,680
the director of the
Mossad, to come."

562
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,759
The meeting took place at about

563
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,000
ten o'clock p.m.

564
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,520
Zvika sat scribbling the essence
of the story.

565
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,160
Ashraf Marwan, he said,

566
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,680
"Tomorrow the war
would be at sunset."

567
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:58,440
Zvika,

568
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,560
he sent the early warning
to his personal assistant.

569
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,600
It was disseminated to the...

570
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,200
...director of
Military Intelligence.

571
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,680
We could
prepare ourselves...

572
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,240
for the attack.

573
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,560
Ashraf, he gave the plan!

574
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:26,320
Wait a second...

575
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:32,560
Ashraf said the war would start at sunset,
and yet the surprise attack was at two...

576
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:34,000
Wasn't that misleading?

577
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,160
I'll answer it!

578
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,920
See, I saw the full report.

579
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:45,520
The Syrians,

580
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,720
they wanted the attack to be
in the morning.

581
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,280
On October the 2nd,
the Egyptian minister of war

582
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:56,960
reached a compromise.

583
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:58,320
"Okay...

584
00:47:58,480 --> 00:47:59,920
not sunset,

585
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,960
ten minutes to two
o'clock, afternoon."

586
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,640
Marwan,
he didn't know about the change.

587
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,680
Because he was not in Egypt.
He went on a mission.

588
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,999
There are those
who say that Marwan did not know

589
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,440
that war starts
four hours earlier.

590
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,640
I don't buy it, I think
that he was just too close...

591
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,000
...to the leadership not
to know such facts.

592
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,680
The fact that he said that
it will start at sunset

593
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:46,680
was the climax of him misleading
the Mossad and Israel.

594
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,679
But Mossad agents have
a very clear motivation

595
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,600
to tell the world
that he was genuine.

596
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,880
So, I was convinced Ashraf
Marwan misled the Israelis.

597
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,480
Now I wanted to write
a book about him...

598
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:10,119
but without the confirmation
I couldn't just blame someone

599
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,880
of being a spy or a double agent.

600
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,160
And they wanted to
hear it from Ashraf.

601
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,360
I wanted to hear
the story from him.

602
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,080
So, I published A
History of Israel.

603
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:32,320
I wanted to tease Ashraf
out so I wrote in the book,

604
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,200
without mentioning his name,
that he was

605
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,800
a close family member
of President Nasser

606
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:45,520
and that the Israelis used to
refer to him as "the Son-in-Law."

607
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,280
By the way, the Israelis never
called him "the Son-in-Law,"

608
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:55,880
this was my invention in
order for him to react.

609
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:02,240
I sent him the book with a
dedication to Ashraf Marwan,

610
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,320
a hero of Egypt,

611
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:08,840
but no response.

612
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,720
This is, by the way, Tommy,
a very boring book...

613
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,280
except for this story.

614
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:17,800
Yeah.

615
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:19,960
Then, a breakthrough.

616
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:27,040
An Egyptian journalist contacted
Ashraf Marwan asking him,

617
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,040
"Are you the person at the heart
of Bregman's story?"

618
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:33,760
To which he responded,

619
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,640
"Bregman's book is
a stupid detective story."

620
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:41,280
In a...

621
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,880
childish sort of
way, I was upset.

622
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,520
So, when another Egyptian
journalist contacted me...

623
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:58,600
I confirmed, Ashraf Marwan,
he was the Son-in-Law.

624
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,280
A perfect spy,
an Egyptian national hero...

625
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,600
for misleading Israel,
and they should name

626
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,160
a street after him in Cairo.

627
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:19,120
I was obsessed with it.

628
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,720
And if you have
something so important...

629
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,000
...and you don't
tell your wife...

630
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:35,399
...I'm sure it does have an
impact on the relationship.

631
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:36,480
...two, one!

632
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:45,720
A few weeks later I picked up
a copy of El a Ram il a Rabi.

633
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:48,360
Oh, that's the interview.

634
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,240
"A perfect spy and
a national hero...

635
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:54,680
Ashraf Marwan"

636
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,880
And it caused a huge
stir in the Middle East.

637
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,760
"The agent is exposed."

638
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:09,440
I saw my picture in the
book and my heart sank.

639
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:11,440
It was quite shocking for me.

640
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:17,079
I wondered what would be
the reaction of Marwan,

641
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:18,720
of the Egyptians, of the Mossad.

642
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:20,880
It was very worrying.

643
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,280
The next day, I'm in the garden.

644
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:42,040
Through the window,
I can see my wife banging.

645
00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:45,520
"You have a telephone call..."

646
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:48,200
I pick up the phone,

647
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,320
and someone says, "How are you?"

648
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,200
It's an Arabic accent.

649
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,440
"And who are you?" I ask.

650
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:01,080
"I am the person
you've written about."

651
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:06,120
I'm taken aback.

652
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,760
He says, "We should meet up."

653
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:38,039
I was about to meet up with
one of the greatest spies

654
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:39,600
in modern history.

655
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,920
Quite a dangerous exercise.

656
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:47,400
So, I was concerned.

657
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:54,080
I took some precautions, I left
a message to my wife saying,

658
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,280
"I am meeting Ashraf Marwan."

659
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,360
And I walked
to the Intercontinental Hotel,

660
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,320
looking back from time-to-time.

661
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,080
He was already there.

662
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,319
I've never seen him before,
and I was quite surprised

663
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,040
to see how tall he was,

664
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,640
well-dressed with a scarf,

665
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:34,040
a red scarf, pacing up and down.

666
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,880
And although we never met before,

667
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,280
we immediately
recognized each other.

668
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,480
"How are you?" I ask.

669
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,560
"I'm ill," he says.
"I just had a few operations."

670
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,000
We ordered coffees,

671
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:54,440
and when the coffee
did not come to our table,

672
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,760
he got up and went
and fetched it for us,

673
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:00,280
which was a big mistake.

674
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,439
He could have put
something inside,

675
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,440
this was my only
mistake in the meeting.

676
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:10,200
I said to him I had one big
question I wanted to ask him.

677
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:17,640
Why did you say sunset when
the war started at 2:00 p.m.?

678
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:23,440
He smiled and said, "What
are a few hours between us?"

679
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:26,240
Bingo!

680
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,720
This was a real admission
that he was misleading Israel.

681
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:37,800
But then he added that he is
concerned about his safety...

682
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,040
...and it was left at that.

683
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:51,720
It was amazing,
and I was very happy to be alive.

684
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,080
General Eli Zeira was correct,

685
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:06,320
the mysterious spy who worked
for Israel was a double agent.

686
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:08,319
This is bullshit!

687
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:09,919
Well, he's wrong!
Tell me what you really...

688
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:11,240
Tell me what you really think!

689
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,120
I think Ronnie is wrong.

690
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:19,000
What Eli Zeira was doing
was spreading fake news

691
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,679
four decades before
Trump came to power,

692
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,200
and invented that term.

693
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:31,439
This was the day
when Israel mourned her dead,

694
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:35,120
the latest casualty
FIGURES: 1,854 killed.

695
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,800
The impact of the surprise
was, for me,

696
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,200
a thing that haunts
me to this day.

697
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,160
Certainly, I have anger.

698
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,239
If we have someone like Marwan,

699
00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:56,040
who told us and warned us
a day before to prepare the army,

700
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:00,320
our intelligence
really fucked up.

701
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:09,920
Of course, I'm angry.
Very much so.

702
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:35,240
After the war,

703
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,240
there was an inquiry committee

704
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:42,200
for the failure
of the military intelligence.

705
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,040
It was the responsibility

706
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,320
of the head of
the Military Intelligence,

707
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,200
General Zeira, to give the alert,
and he did not.

708
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,640
Eli Zeira, when he was asked,

709
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,599
"Why you didn't do anything

710
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,520
with such tremendous
early warning?"

711
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:20,239
he say, "I didn't want to bother
the chief of staff, he was busy."

712
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:21,240
Really?

713
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:26,120
Because Eli Zeira,
he thought they would attack us

714
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:30,480
only if they have enough air
cover provided by the Russians,

715
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,759
and the air cover is not yet
ready.

716
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:38,360
Eli Zeira didn't believe
Ashraf Marwan's warnings.

717
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,320
The inquiry committee,

718
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:59,600
they concluded Eli Zeira...

719
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:05,200
...bore the main responsibility
for the failure in the war.

720
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,200
Eli Zeira was ousted
from active service.

721
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:18,800
And he left the country. He
went with his family to the US.

722
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:25,240
About 13 years after the war,
Eli published his book.

723
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:30,160
He came to the
conclusion that Marwan

724
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:36,880
was a double agent and his real employers
were the Egyptians and not the Israelis.

725
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:38,720
Eli Zeira,

726
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,960
he want to find a scapegoat.

727
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,680
All the stories about
the double agent,

728
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,120
it stems from Eli Zeira.

729
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:55,200
He want to justify himself.

730
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,520
I am furious about him.

731
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,680
What can I do?

732
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,480
I actually spoke to Zeira yesterday.
Zeira said, "All that is facts."

733
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:30,280
So?

734
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:33,440
What do you want to prove?

735
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,480
I'll, uh... I'll, uh...
I'll throw it away.

736
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,880
He said, "On October 4th, at early
afternoon, the Soviets started..."

737
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,000
Listen...

738
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,400
Can you stop here?
I'll tell you...

739
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:47,720
off...

740
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,199
When Zeira wanted
to rehabilitate himself,

741
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:09,160
he started talking to
journalists, writers,

742
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,200
and he gave them some hints.

743
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,600
One day he asked
me for a meeting.

744
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:20,439
He tried to feed me also
with this false bullshit,

745
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:22,440
uh, of double agent.

746
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:27,279
I listened to him and I told him,
"Eli, you are wrong.

747
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,319
You are feeding
false information

748
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,679
just for your pride,
hubris, ego, whatever,"

749
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,000
and I didn't write the story
because I have more integrity.

750
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,520
But why kill a good
story with the facts?

751
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,240
And Ronnie Bregman
believed Eli Zeira...

752
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:49,800
published the name in El a Ran
and spread he was a double agent.

753
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,000
About a
month after the murder...

754
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:09,080
there was a major development.

755
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,480
There were three witnesses,

756
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,560
and they were sitting in a room
which overlooked the balcony,

757
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:22,440
just 20 yards from his home.

758
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:43,159
So, I presume witness Joseph Rapasi
would have been sitting here,

759
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:46,280
because he had the direct
view of the balcony.

760
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:54,040
He saw from the corner
of his eye something fall

761
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,240
but they then rushed
over to the window,

762
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,560
looked down and could
see Ashraf Marwan's body.

763
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:08,840
And it was then that he
saw two shadowy figures,

764
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:13,040
Middle Eastern appearance
looking over the balcony.

765
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:18,880
I flew to Hungary and
met Rapasi in Budapest,

766
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:23,839
and he did confirm to me
that that was his story,

767
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:26,320
which, of course,
deepened the mystery.

768
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:30,040
At the time,
it was a major development,

769
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,639
because it looked
as if it could be,

770
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:34,759
if they were people of
Middle Eastern appearance,

771
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:38,480
maybe they could be
Egyptian secret services,

772
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,920
and it did fuel speculation about
who had possibly killed him.

773
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:55,760
After the meeting in the
Intercontinental Hotel in London,

774
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:01,240
Ashraf, he would phone
from time to time.

775
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,600
I think he was... lonely.

776
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:09,399
He could not have discussed
it with Mona, his wife,

777
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,040
he could not have discussed
his spy games

778
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:17,080
with his kids or friends,
so, ironically, he had me,

779
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:21,160
the person who exposed
him in the first place.

780
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:27,160
Ashraf had strange habits.

781
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:30,400
He would phone me
and keep quiet...

782
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:35,120
...listening to my voice
at the other end of the line,

783
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:37,160
putting down the phone,

784
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,920
ring again and start
a conversation.

785
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:50,200
The more Ashraf asked personal
questions about family and kids,

786
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:54,960
the more concerned
I became for him.

787
01:04:55,560 --> 01:05:00,960
Because as long as he was
the Son-in-Law with no face,

788
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,880
I did not care about
him as a human being.

789
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:09,120
But now I had a
relationship with him,

790
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:13,000
I knew about his operations,
about the family, about the kids,

791
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:19,320
that I became very worried that
something might happen to him,

792
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:23,840
that perhaps the Egyptians
would not buy into my story

793
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,280
of him being their perfect spy,

794
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:30,560
the double agent,
and they would try to hurt him,

795
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:36,360
or perhaps the Mossad
might do a stupid thing.

796
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:45,320
I spent sleepless nights concerned
about what could happen.

797
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:51,680
I thought that if anything happened
to him it would be on my conscience,

798
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:59,520
and ironically, from trying
to unmask this super spy,

799
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:03,600
I started looking for
ways to protect him.

800
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:09,479
Anything which was said
about him, to report to him,

801
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,240
so he could take precautions.

802
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:18,519
All my work, my lectures, my writing,
my family, all was put aside.

803
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:21,480
He became the first priority.

804
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:26,519
By that time, I was so worried

805
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:32,160
that something would happen to
him that I would just look for

806
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:36,640
anything written about him, and he would get the articles
and usually just phone back and ask a few questions,

807
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:41,320
because most of
them were in Hebrew.

808
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:47,360
On one occasion something
was published in Israel,

809
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:52,920
the article is about
Ashraf Marwan shaking hands

810
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:55,960
with Egypt's President Mubarak.

811
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:57,760
And the title is,

812
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:03,480
"The man...
There is Mossad's man in Cairo."

813
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:08,159
"And why did Mubarak
hug the person

814
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:13,000
who is regarded as
the best Mossad agent in Egypt?"

815
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:17,600
I thought the Egyptians
might want to have revenge.

816
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:21,960
I sent it to Ashraf,
and when he got it,

817
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,920
he phoned me from a taxi...

818
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:31,040
and he just shouted
and actually cried.

819
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:33,160
“Why are they doing it to me?

820
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:37,959
They, the Mossad,
is trying to drive a wedge

821
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:42,639
between me and Mubarak,
and this is their revenge

822
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:44,840
for me misleading them.”

823
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:51,040
He was so upset
that even I became very upset.

824
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,799
Do you think he was upset
because Israel's story was a lie?

825
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:57,080
Yes. And then he said,

826
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:59,360
"There was no one spy,

827
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:04,319
we were a group of 40
people whose task it was

828
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:07,399
to feed the Israelis."

829
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:11,760
"There was no single double
agent. There was Egypt."

830
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:28,200
He told me about the medals
he received from Sadat.

831
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:42,640
Wow. It was huge.
I couldn't believe it.

832
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:49,999
But he was scared.

833
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:54,559
He told me he feared for his
life, and I just realized

834
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:59,200
what a stupid thing it was
to unmask a living spy.

835
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,119
But Ronnie, you told
me that the higher value

836
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,479
of unmasking Marwan was about
staying true to history,

837
01:09:06,480 --> 01:09:09,480
and having an accurate
record of what happened.

838
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:15,560
The truth of the
matter... when I unmasked Marwan,

839
01:09:16,440 --> 01:09:18,120
I couldn't care
less about history,

840
01:09:18,480 --> 01:09:23,280
I just cared about
a huge scoop that I had.

841
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:33,000
He wanted, as he put
it, the story to die.

842
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,920
Let's open up another chapter
of this conversation

843
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:44,840
that will be published.

844
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:48,120
Ashraf Marwan,
Dr Ashraf Marwan...

845
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:50,840
You think he's a double agent.
Yes.

846
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:54,000
But everyone who checked up on the
issue says there is no chance in hell!

847
01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:56,880
They say he was not a double
agent, he was our agent.

848
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:01,240
Zeira published a new
version of his book,

849
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,999
and to promote the book,
he went to a television studio

850
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:06,200
and he said...

851
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:09,840
Regarding Marwan,
he gave us excellent information,

852
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:15,280
right up until the time of war,
then he fucked us over.

853
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:23,280
An interview with Commander Eli Zeira here
on this show about the Yom Kippur War

854
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:26,519
made an earthquake
in the intelligence community.

855
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:29,640
Head of the Mossad, Zvi Zamir,
answers back.

856
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,280
Zamir called him a liar.
"You lie."

857
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,760
He, Eli Zeira,
is censoring information!

858
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:39,759
He releases information
that reflects,

859
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:42,040
you know what,
his sick state of mind!

860
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:48,119
So, Zeira
took him to court for libel,

861
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:52,880
so Zamir countered by taking
Zeira to court for libel.

862
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:57,040
So, there were two libel cases.

863
01:10:57,440 --> 01:11:00,760
The Mossad realized that
it's getting out of hand.

864
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:05,080
These two elderly gentlemen
which were compared

865
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:06,919
to those who are
sitting on the balcony

866
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:11,839
in the market shops, quarreling
and spilling secrets...

867
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:15,280
So, the Mossad said,
"Let's go to arbitration."

868
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:24,719
I was invited to the
arbitration by General Eli Zeira,

869
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:27,640
who paid for my flight
ticket, by the way.

870
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:32,280
Zeira wanted me to tell the judge
that he was not my source,

871
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:34,560
which was correct.

872
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:40,479
But the judge asked me about
Zeira's book, to which I said,

873
01:11:40,480 --> 01:11:42,840
"Yes,
it was an important source."

874
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:49,279
The lawyer of the head of
the Mossad took out this book

875
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:50,880
and waved it in the air.

876
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:55,880
I understood that was
a big mistake to admit...

877
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:00,519
that the book was my source,
because for the judge,

878
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:04,200
the book and Eli Zeira
were basically the same.

879
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:09,120
So stupid to be brought
there all the way from London

880
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:13,920
to give testimony to
protect Zeira, and, in fact,

881
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:18,440
I was the one who put,
indirectly, the blame on Zeira

882
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:23,280
by saying that his book was one
of my most important sources.

883
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:25,440
It was very
embarrassing, in fact.

884
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:27,520
After all that...

885
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:29,319
Yeah.

886
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:30,400
Terrible.

887
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:33,319
It's amazing.
It's not amazing, Tommy.

888
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:34,679
It's terrible.

889
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:36,480
Everyone thinks that I'm clever.

890
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:37,920
I was so stupid.

891
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:42,560
And Zeira lost.

892
01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:50,320
And then came a big mistake.

893
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:56,680
The judge wrote a report
where openly he stated

894
01:12:56,960 --> 01:13:01,440
that Ashraf Marwan
was a Mossad agent.

895
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:07,960
This is the report of the judge,
Zeira versus Zamir.

896
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:14,680
Here, look, Ashraf's name
is mentioned many times,

897
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:15,840
which was terrible.

898
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:21,680
Here they say there
was a top agent...

899
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:25,880
who was handled by the Mossad.

900
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:29,440
"The agent, or Marwan..."

901
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:32,040
And they expose
him, his name, here.

902
01:13:33,480 --> 01:13:37,400
So, he is mentioned in
this report so many times.

903
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:42,759
As long as a historian, Ahron Bregman,
said what he said about Marwan,

904
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:47,760
this was bad but not
the end of the world.

905
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:52,440
But the moment a judge says...

906
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:56,520
"the agent, Marwan,"

907
01:13:56,720 --> 01:13:57,800
this was official.

908
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:00,400
When I saw it,
the report, online,

909
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:03,160
I nearly fell off my chair.

910
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:08,600
His life was in real danger.

911
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:15,160
I sent a fax message to
Ashraf Marwan to phone me.

912
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:21,520
I collected my son, put him
in front of the television.

913
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,279
The telephone answering
machine was flashing.

914
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:28,960
Message
received today at 1:52 p.m.

915
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:34,680
And I was taken aback when
I heard Ashraf's own voice.

916
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:36,880
Hello, hi.

917
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:39,200
Hello. About your book,
if you could call me back...

918
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:40,880
on my mobile. Thank you.

919
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:45,840
It was very unusual.

920
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:49,599
Ashraf was a real spy,
spies don't leave messages...

921
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:52,320
...and then a second message.

922
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:55,640
Please.
Hello, can you call me?

923
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:57,800
It's about your book. Thank you.

924
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:01,320
To return the call using the...

925
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:03,480
DR. I could see that he was...

926
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:05,720
...under pressure.

927
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:09,200
Please.

928
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:11,519
Hello, can you call me?
It's about your book.

929
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:12,520
Thank you.

930
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:16,760
Almost one after the other.

931
01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:20,880
Message
received today at 3:11 p.m.

932
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:23,400
Hello,
hi, good afternoon.

933
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:25,519
If you could call me,
I'm the subject of your book.

934
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:26,520
Thank you.

935
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:28,640
To listen to the message again...

936
01:15:30,480 --> 01:15:33,160
I've known him for five years.

937
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:37,279
This was the first time
that he left messages

938
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:38,720
on my answering machine.

939
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:46,959
I took out my old tape recorder
and I, for the first time,

940
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:49,600
decided to record
the conversation.

941
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:56,720
I dialed the number,
my finger was shaking.

942
01:15:58,120 --> 01:15:59,200
He picked up the phone.

943
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:02,760
Hello, my friend.

944
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:05,839
I'm okay, and how are you?

945
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:07,240
Yes, sure. Absolutely.

946
01:16:07,440 --> 01:16:09,759
Yes, yes. Absolutely, yes.

947
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:10,760
Bye-bye.

948
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:13,399
He asked me to phone him again.

949
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:14,400
"Put it down."

950
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:16,320
And two minutes later...

951
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:18,840
I'm talking
to myself two minutes later...

952
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:23,520
and he is not answering,
which was strange.

953
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:28,519
I was very concerned that he
said to me, "Phone me again,"

954
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:30,839
and then I tried again...
So, something

955
01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:33,479
is happening in the room
when I am talking to him.

956
01:16:33,480 --> 01:16:35,000
You see, I am waiting for him.

957
01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:38,040
And two minutes later...

958
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:40,640
Third time.

959
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:45,960
What's happening in the room?

960
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:47,960
Are you there, you know?

961
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:50,240
I phoned him, he said,
"Phone me again."

962
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:53,480
I'm trying and trying and trying.

963
01:16:56,920 --> 01:16:58,120
Hi, hello.

964
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:00,600
No, no, no. Don't worry.

965
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:05,240
So, um, the report of the judge
came out...

966
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:09,080
and there are details there.
This is the bottom line.

967
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:13,720
Ashraf wanted the story to die,

968
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:20,319
what he gets here is a
report from me that his story

969
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:23,040
is very much alive,

970
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:26,199
and I'm sure that
he is very stressed.

971
01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:27,679
I am sure that he
is very worried.

972
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:28,880
It's awful for him.

973
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:31,640
Are you in England?

974
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:39,560
Tomorrow, I will be in town.
I will be at King's College.

975
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:42,680
If you want to meet, we can meet,
but it's up to you.

976
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:45,359
Okay, my friend. All the best.

977
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:46,560
Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

978
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:49,640
I am shaking.

979
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:19,360
This is one of the rare events
where people pay with their lives.

980
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:21,920
He paid with his life,

981
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:24,560
and he didn't deserve it.

982
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:46,440
After the
death of Ashraf Marwan,

983
01:18:47,480 --> 01:18:49,160
Ronnie was in shock.

984
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:54,320
I felt big pain.
It was very painful when he died.

985
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:04,760
I spent hours in the mountains
thinking about it,

986
01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:06,560
reflecting about it.

987
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:10,720
His death was my
failure to protect him.

988
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:14,040
This is how I looked at it.

989
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:20,240
I flew to
interview Ronnie Bregman.

990
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:24,960
We had a very lengthy conversation,
he said, "Maybe it's my fault."

991
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:30,599
Then we talked a lot in details
with all these arguments

992
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:32,680
which I raised before.

993
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:38,080
At the end of it, Ronnie told me,
"You know, Yossi? You are right.

994
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:41,240
I don't believe anymore
that he was a double agent,

995
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:42,400
you convinced me."

996
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:52,040
Eli had a clique
of journalists surrounding him.

997
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:54,640
And among them, one historian.

998
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:58,279
If you ask me,
and I'm not just saying this,

999
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:00,080
these people are disgusting.

1000
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:01,679
Why?

1001
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:04,040
Because these people
distort the truth.

1002
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:17,960
Yeah, the funeral.

1003
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:24,320
They asked me, "Okay,
he got such an Egypt funeral.

1004
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:30,120
With all the leadership
coming with black suits.

1005
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:37,480
His widow stand there. All the
high echelon passed by her,

1006
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:40,280
kissing her or whispering..."

1007
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:45,240
They asked me, "How could it
be that this is a traitor?"

1008
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,560
I watched many mafia movies.

1009
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:53,919
When the mafia killed
one of their members,

1010
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:58,200
all the dons are passing
by the widow, whispering,

1011
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:02,320
"We will give you money,"
"We will give you money."

1012
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:06,080
The funeral of Ashraf Marwan...

1013
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:09,560
reminds me the same.

1014
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:11,360
This is Westminster Coroner Court

1015
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:25,079
where there was a three-day
hearing to decide a verdict

1016
01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:27,040
on the death of Ashraf Marwan.

1017
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:33,920
During the inquest, it was mentioned
he had been writing his memoirs.

1018
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:37,719
I had seen where
the memoirs were supposed

1019
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:41,960
to have been stored on the shelf
and they'd disappeared,

1020
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:44,479
according to the family,
on the day that he died.

1021
01:21:44,480 --> 01:21:49,640
Now, in those memoirs he was
expected to discuss his role

1022
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:51,760
in the October War.

1023
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:53,599
Of course, he was going to reject

1024
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:56,240
the allegation that
he was a Mossad agent,

1025
01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:00,240
but they'd disappeared,
according to the family.

1026
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,159
The Marwan
family, through their lawyer,

1027
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:08,640
asked me to appear
before the coroner.

1028
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:14,040
I was sitting where the coroner
listened to the testimonies

1029
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:16,760
and it was quite confusing,

1030
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:22,439
and my mind was telling me,
"Wow, it was a murder."

1031
01:22:22,440 --> 01:22:25,039
And then a minute later,
"No, it was an accident."

1032
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:27,080
And then, "No, it was a suicide."

1033
01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:31,200
And to sit there with the family,
at the back of my mind,

1034
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:35,999
there was the question,
"What was my responsibility?"

1035
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:38,640
It was a very
unpleasant experience.

1036
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:41,920
There was a three-day
hearing to decide,

1037
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:44,920
and at the end of it,

1038
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:47,920
the coroner handed down
an open verdict on his death.

1039
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:56,959
Which the family were
very pleased about,

1040
01:22:56,960 --> 01:23:00,560
because it allowed the family to rule out suicide.
I did feel for Mona, she was devastated.

1041
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:26,760
Madame Mona, what was the
hardest moment in your life?

1042
01:23:26,920 --> 01:23:28,080
Two moments...

1043
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:32,759
...the death of
my father and my mother,

1044
01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:34,400
and the loss of Ashraf.

1045
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:40,360
But at the end of the day,
as his wife, I lost him,

1046
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:43,600
but at the same
time, I feel grateful

1047
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:47,560
that I could be with him
for 30 years.

1048
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:38,120
So if he
was in touch with Israel,

1049
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:40,960
then it was out of orders
from the Egyptian side?

1050
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:47,160
This is
not even to be questioned;

1051
01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:52,000
I am not going to defend
something that I don't need to.

1052
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:56,239
This is something that I
am sure of 100 percent,

1053
01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:59,080
not even just 100 percent...

1054
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:07,880
Everyone fought
in his or her way.

1055
01:25:09,440 --> 01:25:12,160
Ashraf Marwan in
Egypt is regarded as a patriot

1056
01:25:12,480 --> 01:25:16,080
who worked for Sadat to
deceive the Israelis.

1057
01:25:16,240 --> 01:25:20,960
Basically, by giving Egypt a
four-hour lead in the 1973 war,

1058
01:25:22,120 --> 01:25:25,160
but Israel regard him
as a national hero.

1059
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:28,240
Double is very hard to believe.

1060
01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:31,920
In my opinion, he was ours.

1061
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:36,880
The Israeli side of
things is supported by evidence,

1062
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:41,960
the Egyptian side has yet
to present its own record,

1063
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:46,520
and only when both of them
are available can we decide

1064
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:49,200
which is the more authentic
version of the story.

1065
01:25:50,440 --> 01:25:54,840
The question is: Why is the
Egyptian Intelligence Services,

1066
01:25:54,960 --> 01:25:58,319
50 years down the line, not
releasing any shred of evidence

1067
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:00,160
about Ashraf Marwan?

1068
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:04,959
The fact that we do
not have any evidence

1069
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:07,400
is really not about
Ashraf Marwan.

1070
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:12,880
It is about the fact that if the
Egyptians release any documents,

1071
01:26:13,040 --> 01:26:18,759
it will establish a precedent that
the public can have a say on how

1072
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:21,479
the Egyptian State
should be transparent,

1073
01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:24,760
that it should be accountable,
and the Egyptian State

1074
01:26:24,920 --> 01:26:27,160
doesn't want to establish
this precedent at all.

1075
01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:32,760
Even though, by not revealing
anything about Ashraf Marwan,

1076
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:36,479
it can be still raising
suspicion that, in fact,

1077
01:26:36,480 --> 01:26:39,320
he was an Israeli spy
rather than a double agent.

1078
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:43,520
The Ashraf Marwan story,
this is not the real story.

1079
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:47,560
This is a side story of
something that is much bigger.

1080
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:52,560
The Egyptian people,
they want to know the truth.

1081
01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:09,280
We have the
full report of the meeting

1082
01:27:09,440 --> 01:27:14,120
between Zamir and Ashraf Marwan
just released by the Israelis.

1083
01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:18,119
There are five pages,
enough information

1084
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:22,480
for the two schools of thought
to find enough elements

1085
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:24,840
to support their own theory.

1086
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:31,200
I always believed Ashraf
was a double agent,

1087
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:32,920
I never doubted that.

1088
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:37,519
I don't understand why
he's still sticking

1089
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:40,799
to this bullshit theory
of a double agent.

1090
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:43,039
I can understand that
maybe at the beginning

1091
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:46,840
he was under this spell and
the impression of Eli Zeira.

1092
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:50,799
Fine. But then,
after he already admitted

1093
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:53,960
in our conversation,
he was almost crying.

1094
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:56,200
I don't know.
It's an enigma for me.

1095
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:00,239
Yossi told me
that he convinced you

1096
01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:02,919
Ashraf was not a double agent.

1097
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:05,400
I don't think that
this was the case.

1098
01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:09,719
Yossi believes in what he
believes, along with the Mossad.

1099
01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:12,720
The truth, it's in the
eye of the beholder.

1100
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:16,560
The fact
that he is not ready to...

1101
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:19,200
face the real story and to...

1102
01:28:19,920 --> 01:28:24,680
to have the courage and the guts
to say, "I was mistaken,"

1103
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:28,680
it's his problem
with his conscience.

1104
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:35,920
Unmasking the name
of a human source,

1105
01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:38,000
it's a sin.

1106
01:28:38,400 --> 01:28:39,880
What would
you say to him?

1107
01:28:40,080 --> 01:28:42,240
"Go to hell, bastard!"

1108
01:28:42,840 --> 01:28:44,720
Really. "Go to hell, bastard!"

1109
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:46,360
"How dare you?"

1110
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:51,680
Because you don't
put in danger a human being

1111
01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:54,800
because you want to be famous.

1112
01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:58,040
When it comes
to the story of Ashraf Marwan

1113
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:00,480
there is no ego in me.

1114
01:29:01,040 --> 01:29:05,640
The Mossad, they can't give up on
their story of Ashraf.

1115
01:29:07,240 --> 01:29:10,720
And when I'm in bed at night,
as you put it,

1116
01:29:11,480 --> 01:29:15,800
I don't really think about
whether or not he was double.

1117
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:19,520
I lost interest in this
question, Tommy.

1118
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:24,360
It's about the pain
which I inflicted on him

1119
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:26,480
in unmasking him.

1120
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:29,960
I just want you
to ponder a question, though,

1121
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:32,960
is still believing
that he's a double agent,

1122
01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:36,319
is it not easier to believe that,

1123
01:29:36,320 --> 01:29:38,039
because then everything
you went through

1124
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:39,920
would at least then
not be for nothing?

1125
01:31:08,320 --> 01:31:10,480
What impact did
this have on your marriage?

1126
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:12,200
Of course, I divorced,

1127
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:15,640
but it was not because of
the Marwan story.

1128
01:31:16,400 --> 01:31:21,720
But I think, in hindsight, it does
have impact, because it's a secret.

1129
01:31:23,120 --> 01:31:26,240
My then wife, when she
came to know about it,

1130
01:31:26,440 --> 01:31:31,280
she had the common sense to tell
me that it will end in tears.

1131
01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:34,920
But it was,
of course... it was too late.

1132
01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:40,880
And by that time, the train
already left the station.

1133
01:31:42,440 --> 01:31:45,560
Maybe your fish,
they want to have more food.

1134
01:31:45,800 --> 01:31:46,960
They love food.

1135
01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:51,759
My fish, if I open this
one, they jump.

1136
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:52,840
Do they?
Yeah.

1137
01:31:53,720 --> 01:31:56,000
They are guppies.
You know, guppies like to jump.

1138
01:31:57,360 --> 01:32:01,440
But with them they jump
and I can save them...

1139
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:06,040
...because I just bring them
from the floor and put them back.

1140
01:32:06,200 --> 01:32:07,880
Look. Look how many of them.

1141
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:18,640
This afternoon
historic documents

1142
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:23,359
concluding the Treaty of Peace
between the Arab Republic of Egypt

1143
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:25,920
and the State of
Israel will be signed.

1144
01:32:28,480 --> 01:32:30,280
It's better to have
the three of us together.

1145
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:31,400
Very good.

1146
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:37,440
I'm so proud of both of you.

1147
01:32:37,560 --> 01:32:38,799
God bless you both.

1148
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:40,320
Thank you,
Mr. President.