JJBA OCT #8 R1M30 Quality Deliberations

Judge Marioaddict -

Hey, where’d all the land go? Unbelievable, how is anyone supposed to strat like this?? Unbelievable, 7/10, too much water.

I jest, I jest. This was a boss match I’ve been looking forward to for a while - as soon as Switz had pitched the concept behind Frederick, I wanted to see exactly how this psycho of a lifeguard would be taken on by the players, and Agnes and Grendel ended up being a very fun duo to take him on! Definitely a great match to end off round 1 - now then, let’s get the judge hat on and see how everyone did!

Starting with the players, I’m docking you elegance points. This should not come as a surprise. Your strategy was just shy of 40,000 characters, and while I admit it was much more readable than that length would imply, I simply can’t stand for going that far beyond the softcap. It took me an *entire* work shift just to parse it - please never make me do that again.

With that out of the way; this is a pretty solid strat! The general idea is to grab useful tools from the boat before diving into the water, chasing Frederick down from there and pincering him before giving him the beatdown of a lifetime. It’s a decent overall gameplan, one that leverages a lot of the players’ strengths! There’s a few missteps along the way, such as attempting hit-and-run in the incredibly small space afforded by the boat and trying to spread a fire with lifejacket fluid (a material which, from my research, would not be particularly flammable on its own), but these are all minor, and definitely don’t sink the strat.

Honestly, the only major misplay I see player-side is the assumption that Frederick will need to come up to the surface for air. Considering that Frederick’s stand creates air bubbles, I’m not sure exactly how this assumption came to bear, but it does render some of the duo’s early setup a bit moot.

Still, even this is not particularly damning - it’s more than outweighed by the core plan, and some of the creative maneuvers along the way (big fan of forcing water into Frederick’s face, and using an oyster shell to punch an octopus, great stuff). Overall, I wavered between a high 7 and a low 8, but with the docked elegance points, I think a high **7** is fair and fitting. Nicely done!

On to Frederick, the Guardian of Life begins by setting up some immediate defensive and movement tech, before working to destroy the boats ASAP. Once the players are in the water, he dives down, leveraging his greater movement capabilities underwater to harass the players from range. He aims to separate the players, and when the opportunity arises, close with Agnes for a finisher that sends Agnes to the surface while Meant to Live deals with Grendel.

It’s a decent plan, but I have some major issues with the finisher - namely, that it seemingly doesn’t finish anything. As best as I can tell, the plan is to grapple Agnes (which doesn’t harm them), rip out their Wierd Fishes tentacles (which doesn’t harm them), and use a life ring to send them flying to the surface of the water (which - again - doesn’t harm them). Grendel, meanwhile, is dealt with by having Meant to Live grapple and crush Lush, putting explosive bubbles in-between it and Grendel. This, at least, does do damage, but strangely asserts that Grendel won’t be able to do much to counteract it, based on… seemingly nothing, as far as I can tell. I suppose the idea is that without Lush, Grendel has no means of damaging Meant to Live, but even so, it feels this underestimates Grendel’s capabilities (for all we know, Grendel may be mobile enough that Meant to Live doesn’t get the grapple on Lush in the first place).

Really, I think that finisher summarizes my biggest issues with the plan - while everything is creative and coheres well enough, I feel Frederick has a tendency to overstate his advantage in the water and underestimate the players’ survivability (which ain’t nothing, considering Grendel’s 5 Endurance and Agnes’ 4 Endurance + 4 “I don’t need organs or bodily functions”). This isn’t limited to the endgame, I’ll add - there’s other points where the players are assumed to be less capable as well, such as assuming Agnes simply can’t break out of a bubble on their own, or confidently assuming the players can’t pincer him if he dives down.

Everything else is great - the ranged harassment is good, the positioning is good, the framing of everything as a “life saving maneuver” is a fun touch, but the underestimation of the players leaves me feeling like Frederick will have a harder time than anticipated. It’s a generally good gameplan, leveraging Frederick’s high points pretty well, but with fairly damning flaws along the way - for that, I’ll be giving Frederick a **7** as well.

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Judge RocketLlama -

And so we reach the end of the beginning. At this point a little less than a third of the matches have concluded, and we have seen showings from the vast majority of our cast! To end the round we have about as simple a deathmatch as one can hope for. The sons are off the leash now, and this was the first chance for our players to take them down a peg.

Starting with the players, we have a product that literally brings a lot to the table. With a combination of a good core thesis for winning the match flushed out with an ample amount of tech to take on the Lifeguard there is a lot to talk about, so let's start with the good. In a match where water is the primary terrain, mobility becomes significantly more difficult and stamina becomes significantly more difficult to manage. If these factors are not managed well into an opponent built for the environment leave one literally dead in the water. However for the most part the players handle the stage well. Agnes has more reliable mobility tools that, while lacking burst movement, are effectively used to zone out areas of the map and create space for It and Grendel to work around. Grendel sets up burst mobility to capitalize on when Fredrick overcommits, but lacks consistent defensive pressure. It is a classic case where a pairing of characters set up their mechanics to cover each other's weakness and while a bit oversubscribed at points sets up the rest of the strategy for success.

Beyond that, I want to highlight a specific thing that each individual did well as well. Agnes does a superior job of stage control focusing on causing a wide net of disruptive ooze and disrupting movement. The ooze net is a powerful tool that scales throughout the match, and even though I think that ooze could have played a role in some fun close quarters control play, the way it is used is undeniably effective, if not a bit slow to reach the level of effect described in the strategy. The swirling currents it generates are also well done, though their effect may be a bit overstated against the enemy user and stand. However against projectiles, and more importantly enemy bubbles, they are brutally effective, and the small pushes that they can give to allied attacks and mobility, while not enormous, are notable and will add up in alleviating exhaustion and providing some extra damage.

Grendel, on the other hand, acts as a powerful anchor throughout the strategy, and is the muscle to back up the area control that Agnes is more focused on. Their ambush tactics are well done, and a simple mixture of ranged grappling, strong engage, burst movement, and brutal well conceived attacks take huge chunks out of Fredrick’s ability to fight. Grendel’s side of the game plan is simple and effective. I would say more but for the most part the quality speaks for itself.

There are some tactical blunders and mismanagement that I see throughout the strategy though that I do feel should be addressed. For one, I feel that Agnes’s power output is overdescribed basically throughout the entire strat. In a match with an unlimited supply of water Its limiting factor is not tentacle generation, but output of physical force. While many pieces of tech are convincing when all tentacles are focused on it. There it a lot that agnes is trying to do, and once split between defending, area control through whorlpools, grappling, and mobility I can easily see Agnes getting overwhelmed and losing effectiveness.This could have been alleviated with characters focusing on allocation of resources, and as much as assuming competence alleviates this a bit focus on what is let slip when to allow for more impact in defence vs. mobility could have punched up the effect of all of this tech.

Grendel has comparatively less to talk about in this department. For one, the shell armor feels a little bit lazily implemented, with attaching objects to the one strength character who is already incredibly durable feeling like more of a hindrance than a help against an opponent who focuses on blunt attacks and pressure waves to deal damage. Beyond that, directly attacking bubbles feels like a bad idea on face the way it is described, as it would seem just as likely that Grendel's arms and legs get battered even if their core can be protected by the shield.

And as we get into scoring I want to say that I struggled on scores for this one. There is a lot of really solid and clever work here, but a major limiting factor comes in the fact that the strategy is fundamentally bloated. This delib took a long time to write simply because I had to sift through a lot of writing, and while there is a lot to appreciate certain aspects fall flat because some tech, like the majority of the opening ranged attacks, all feel kind of tacked on and disconnected from the meat of the strategy that wins the match. I wish that the product as a whole was tighter, because once boiled down to its core you have a winning strategy here! But with what feels like 8-10k characters of fat to your strategy, I don't think I can give it any higher than a high 6/10. There was absolutely an 8 within the strategy you wrote here. I am begging yall to dedicate more time to editing so that you can take out what distracts from that gold and let it shine through.

Moving on to Fredric, I have comparatively less to say. His strategy is altogether solid with a few minor flubs. Let's start with what makes it potent.

For one it is a tight product, with a good balance of narrative sauce and tech presented in a way that makes it a quick and digestible read. It aims for an all killer approach where sections of well considered setup pay off (for the most part) in solid payoffs. Also the characterization of Fredrick bleeds into all cracks of the strategy. The way he talks sets up the way he moves and strikes. Oftentimes narrative is considered somewhat separate from mechanics. However when used like this it manages to punch up the mechanics of the strategy and make many of the beats of the strategy hit that much harder.

The strategy also manages to cover the three of four core aspects of a strategy quite well, being positioning, defence, and offence. Positioning is a bit of a gimme admittedly. If you put a fish in water, it is going to swim. But past that I think that defence is a particularly well considered portion of the strategy. Bubble shields being armor that punishes reckless attacks that can also be cast out are simple but core to keeping Fredrick protected. That, along with strong tech for disengagement built into both your movement and offense focused sections mean that when Fredrick does engage, it would seem more likely than not that he can take less damage than his opponents. Fundamentally, a good defence makes dealing damage costly and difficult and enables one to deal damage without getting counterattacked. Frederick accomplishes both of these.

Moving into offense, I think that Fredrick has a lot of strong options. Using the 3d space of the map to attack from odd angles below the players is well implemented, and the combination of strong engage tech, solid burst damage, and well conceived grappling tech all set Fredrick up to deal big damage. If I may offer one critique of his offense, I will say that his finishing moves do leave something to be desired. For all the excellence in set up here they pay off feels genuinely underwhelming. It kind of throws off the tempo of the boss strat when a big ambush play ends up feeling like even if it lands, it is somewhat narratively unsatisfying.

And speaking of tempo, that fourth aspect of the strategy, the resource management in this match leaves something to be desired, specifically surrounding the generation and usage of bubbles. There are points in the strategy, like in the fourth paragraph of the third comment where it feels like there is not adequate accrual of bubbles to handle all that Fredrick is trying to do with them. Focusing on the rate of resource accrual and building tempo around how you expend and regenerate your bubbles could have easily shored up my concerns, but as is I can see him getting caught out.

With all of that said in a world where I don't have questions about bubble usage and convincingness of the finisher I could see a higher score, but as is I think that a strong 7/10 feels more than fair here.

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Judge AtomicPeace -

Fortunate Sons:

Frederick utilizes his superior mobility within the water and strong defensive capabilities to play a very defensive game against his opponents.

With an initial rushdown to try to get the players off their boats and where he wants them, some solid reactive counterplay is incorporated that shows understanding of their strengths, as well as good technical understanding of your own kits. Given your ultimate plan is to play defensively  and make the enemy come to you, Frederick opts for a pretty reactive approach, playing fairly aggressive until the enemies get into the water, either by toppling their boats or of their own volition, then shifting into defense. Frederick has a lot of solid, repeatable options for defense and mobility, including straightforward uses of his Stand to bolster his mobility such as the Sea Scooter, and options that bolster his defenses such as the bubble shield.

After this phase, you largely stay in the depths to take advantage of your aquatic mobility, as well as the reduced visibility and offensive potential of your opponents. Being patient and biding your time seems like a good call, and your aptitude in the sea allows you to be a bit more selective in how you choose your battles. You demonstrate a lot of good defensive tech here, with additions to your standard defensive tech over time, including tricks such as the layered bubbles and staggering permeable/impermeable bubbles to keep your opponents guessing.

I think your targets were well prioritized, going for 1 on 1 engagements and having solid individual plans for both Grendel and Agnes. Again, previous moves to keep your spacing and defense are compounded upon to wear down your opponents, and make attempts to pursue you painful for them. I do think there could’ve been more concerted efforts to separate the opponents, I think what’s there in the contingency for if they stick together is good, but there could have been a bit more in the way of proactive attempts to do so.

I think when things shift to offense in your final section is unfortunately the strat’s weakest point. I thought overall your target prioritization and planning during the more reactive, defensive sections were pretty good, you kept distance, made your target come to you, and wear them down. The actual offensive meat of it is solid in terms of what you plan to do to the opponents, making good usage of MTL’s octopus physiology to carry out some pretty devastating attacks against your opponents and their Stands, however, I think your finisher doesn’t sufficiently address the combat potential of both your opponents, even if you’re only approaching them after they’ve already been damaged sufficiently by your Stand. It reads a bit too optimistically, taking for granted that Frederick will get the attacks that he intends off without much opposition; even in the areas the potential opposition opposition is accounted for, I feel that there was not as much depth in how the individual capabilities of the enemy’s abilities would be addressed as there could have been.

Overall, I feel like the strategy mostly played well into Frederick’s strengths, demonstrating good technical understanding of his kit and consistent counterplay with a mostly patient, defensive strategy. I felt the offense/finisher was lacking and could have made a better case for dispatching Agnes and Grendel while also respecting the danger of their offensive potential, especially with the potential setup throughout the match. I’m going to give this a 7/10, solid central plan with some room for improvement.


La Isla Leviatán:

Starting out, the players do a solid job of identifying Frederick’s strengths early in the match and planning accordingly. They pilfer the boats for supplies, get some fluid flow started for Agnes, spreading it out well, and prepare to inevitably get into the water. I think tethering themselves together was an excellent call, against an opponent with pretty overwhelming potential in a 1v1, the players correctly identify and implement some solid counterplay.

Once in the water, Agnes’ tentacle production really ramps up, and it sets up one of the core mobility/defensive tools used throughout the match in the whirlpool, which provides mobility, maneuvering in combat, and potentially trips up Frederick’s swimming in close ranges.

In terms of actually engaging Frederick, you have solid positioning and demonstrate good technical understanding and logistics in how you approach him, recognizing the optimal range of attack, and going for grappling.

Once you get him where you want him, you have a nice variety of defensive and offensive plans at your disposal. Your defenses show a sound assessment of Frederick’s threats, reactively utilizing your whirlpool-enhanced movement and the high durability shells, and recognize the importance of staying out of a grapple. Offensively, you employ distraction and disorientation while setting up Grendel for some powerful attacks, with flesh tethers serving as a great boost to empower his monstrous blows. All in all, I found the plan for offense in close range effective, however I would have liked to see more in the way of addressing his potential defenses; I do think the offenses that you have could convincingly break through, but B durability bubbles are nothing to scoff at, and even if the largest bubble has a 5 second setup time, he can make smaller ones faster at a more significant quantity, so I feel like more specific plans to address this would have uplifted your offense.

I think that the main issue I have here with the strat as a whole is with elegance and readability. I recognize that much of it is narrative, but the strat took a lot of space to communicate some fairly straightforward concepts, and I think weaving narrative and mechanics together into the text while maintaining a reasonable length is an important part of putting a strategy together, and although the narrative it told was a good one, the strat ended up pretty bloated. It doesn’t make the strategy bad or unreadable by any means, but it is a definite area of improvement.

Overall though, the strategy felt like it competently executed upon its goals, with a solid narrative throughout, good counterplay and mechanical understanding of everyone’s kit. While needing improvement in elegance, it was overall both mechanically sound and enjoyable. 7/10.