Calder Rooney
1:46 AM (1 hour ago)
I was just going through some old logs of Amelie's to post and ran into an age-related reference

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
1:49 AM (57 minutes ago)
to David
Given the maturity, composure, and independence with which she's been played, I think bumping her initial age up from 17 to 20 better reflects that reality

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
1:49 AM (56 minutes ago)
to David
Background-wine, making that change involves a few details to hash out

David Armstrong
1:50 AM (56 minutes ago)
to me
I really really hoped that this was not going to come up again.

Calder Rooney
1:50 AM (55 minutes ago)
Why wouldn't it? How Amelie was played hasn't changed

Calder Rooney
1:52 AM (54 minutes ago)
That much said, the main thing to sort out is how she spent her late adolescence after turning 18

David Armstrong
1:53 AM (53 minutes ago)
Calder, I don't want to do it. You haven't convinced me that an 18 year old can't be mature going through the things she has.

David Armstrong
1:53 AM (52 minutes ago)
And the player agency that takes away from me is absolutely rediculous.

David Armstrong
1:54 AM (52 minutes ago)
That I have no say in my characters age, is not something that's going to fly with me.

David Armstrong
1:55 AM (51 minutes ago)
I'm sorry for all the headbutting we've been doing, but at this point this isn't headbutting, this is going to be jewish levels of head against wall.

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
1:59 AM (47 minutes ago)
to David
I'm sorry you don't feel the change reflects how Amelie has been played, but this isn't a debate I mean to have twice. I don't ever intend to rob PCs of their IC agency and I don't believe this does. Your Attributes and Skills can (and have) changed as a result of play, and your background is much the same. Navy wasn't able to play a veteran FBI agent up to snuff and got his backstory changed to being a beat cop. In your case, you've played Amelie with enough maturity that being 20 fits her better, so this is an actually an "upgrade"

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
1:59 AM (46 minutes ago)
to David
In any case, the big thing to hash out is what she did with her life those couple years after turning 18

Calder Rooney
2:00 AM (46 minutes ago)
Off-hand, she could have potentially:

David Armstrong
2:00 AM (46 minutes ago)
to me
That you don't believe it robs someone of player agency is ultimately irrelevant Calder. You yourself often say that we need to stop treating NPCs as if they know more than they do, that you don't think this robs player agency doesn't mean it doesn't.

David Armstrong
2:00 AM (45 minutes ago)
It is not an upgrade.

David Armstrong
2:01 AM (45 minutes ago)
to me
It is a full grown adult dealing with going to a highschool for girls as a dyke, and is a further humiliation, at a school that fundamentally would not accept her.

Calder Rooney
2:01 AM (44 minutes ago)
Yes, that does add an interesting angle to things, doesn't it?

David Armstrong
2:01 AM (44 minutes ago)
A) Because she is what they think is an adult lesbian among younger girls and B) A continuing education student, a smear on any actual highschool.

David Armstrong
2:01 AM (44 minutes ago)
No

David Armstrong
2:01 AM (44 minutes ago)
No it does not

Calder Rooney
2:02 AM (44 minutes ago)
There's no doubt a reason she never told any of the girls exactly how old she was...

David Armstrong
2:02 AM (44 minutes ago)
And that you would continue to try and have this conversation of hashing out details with me here, without me, is frankly really disrespectful.

David Armstrong
2:02 AM (44 minutes ago)
You're right that we're not going to have this debate twice.

David Armstrong
2:02 AM (43 minutes ago)
There is no debate.

Calder Rooney
2:03 AM (43 minutes ago)
Sussing out those details is exactly what I'm asking for your input on

David Armstrong
2:03 AM (43 minutes ago)
If you want to get a third party involved, we can talk it out that way, that's the only way I'm going to move forward with this.

David Armstrong
2:03 AM (43 minutes ago)
No, I'm denying participating, so you're talking about them AT me.

Calder Rooney
2:03 AM (43 minutes ago)
We aren't bringing in any third parties

Calder Rooney
2:03 AM (42 minutes ago)
I'm sorry you don't agree with my call here, but it's the one I'm making. Amelie is better at 20 than 17

David Armstrong
2:03 AM (42 minutes ago)
No

David Armstrong
2:03 AM (42 minutes ago)
She isn't

David Armstrong
2:04 AM (42 minutes ago)
It's your opinion she is.

David Armstrong
2:04 AM (42 minutes ago)
And I've given you all the reasons I think she should stay EIGHTEEN.

David Armstrong
2:04 AM (42 minutes ago)
And I don't even feel like you've acknowledged any of them

David Armstrong
2:04 AM (41 minutes ago)
Because this is what you want.

David Armstrong
2:05 AM (41 minutes ago)
This is supposed to be a collaborative discussion.

David Armstrong
2:05 AM (41 minutes ago)
A collaborative game.

David Armstrong
2:05 AM (41 minutes ago)
Give and take.

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
2:05 AM (41 minutes ago)
to David
Your right, it actually is a matter of subjective opinion. That's just the nature of RPGs as creative works being run by a human GM

David Armstrong
2:06 AM (40 minutes ago)
to me
Coming towards me with this, ignoring me saying no, dismissing my opinions on my own character, and trying to change it by force, is not collaborative

David Armstrong
2:06 AM (40 minutes ago)
It's knocking on someone's door, asking if they need a faucet changed, and walking past them into their house to change it

David Armstrong
2:06 AM (39 minutes ago)
Without hearing the person saying no, and ignoring them struggling against you.

Calder Rooney
2:07 AM (39 minutes ago)
RPGs, or at least the ones I've run and played in, are not 100% collaborative, but benign dictatorships

David Armstrong
2:07 AM (39 minutes ago)
Nah

David Armstrong
2:07 AM (39 minutes ago)
Nah fam nah

David Armstrong
2:07 AM (39 minutes ago)
I have never been in a healthy game that was just GM fiat goes.

David Armstrong
2:08 AM (38 minutes ago)
It's ALWAYS a talk. Talk about the rule, if everyone hates it, after that session there can be a house rules talk.

David Armstrong
2:08 AM (37 minutes ago)
to me
If someone is uncomfortable with subject matter, the GM should make the decision rather that person should be in the game as there is a big focus on it, or they can change it.

David Armstrong
2:08 AM (37 minutes ago)
WITH input from that player.

David Armstrong
2:09 AM (37 minutes ago)
Kicking down a door and slapping cock meat on a table and saying 'this is life now' doesn't fly.

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
2:09 AM (36 minutes ago)
to David
That's also not what this is. I do want players to be happy and on board with a shared creative vision. I am happy to listen to player input and regularly incorporate it. B&B would be far less than it is without that input. But sometimes creative differences are not reconcilable, and when there is such a difference in opinion, what the GM says is what goes

David Armstrong
2:10 AM (35 minutes ago)
Calder, that's not what I'm feeling here.

David Armstrong
2:10 AM (35 minutes ago)
There has been regular pushback against things, and you do them anyway.

David Armstrong
2:11 AM (35 minutes ago)
The Health system just recently.

David Armstrong
2:11 AM (35 minutes ago)
The Wits descriptions rule

David Armstrong
2:11 AM (35 minutes ago)
The 24 hour time limit lift.

David Armstrong
2:12 AM (34 minutes ago)
to me
Bulldozed through every one of them. You wouldn't even give me a month like I asked, it was 2 weeks, and you more than certainly within the first 2 days make a sharp remark about the lack of posts.

David Armstrong
2:12 AM (34 minutes ago)
Everyone wanted to stick with the house rules health, but you wanted to try it out so SLAP cock meat on the table.

David Armstrong
2:13 AM (33 minutes ago)
to me
Wits thing just came out of nowhere, if you didn't like me asking questions like that you could have approached me, asked that I stop doing that, and then I could have come to you asking for a bit more description in scenes so I didn't feel such bad vertigo as a visual thinker.

David Armstrong
2:13 AM (32 minutes ago)
I understand.

David Armstrong
2:13 AM (32 minutes ago)
If you think that this has all been colaborative.

David Armstrong
2:14 AM (32 minutes ago)
But on this end it's been feeling less and less so.

David Armstrong
2:14 AM (32 minutes ago)
Maybe that's because I'm an idiot! And Petes an ass! And Jacks never around. And Sam was gone for a year because of his abusive wife.

David Armstrong
2:14 AM (31 minutes ago)
So you don't have the kind of people you want to bounce things off of.

David Armstrong
2:16 AM (30 minutes ago)
to me
But as it stands? Amelie is now an immortal fucking monster who has walked through a literal circle of hell, after a life that wasn't so much different. Dealt with fighting opioid addiction, a broken home, a missing mother, running a business on her own, a supremely lonely life, a year in foster care, and now having the only thing she had control over, her body, being ruined.

David Armstrong
2:17 AM (29 minutes ago)
2 years might not seem to you like it matters, but Amelie is staying how she is.

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
2:18 AM (28 minutes ago)
to David
If a GM wants to bulldoze through player opinion, that's completely within their rights as the person running the game. I don't however feel you're being intellectually honest in characterizing me that way. The time limit rule, just to cite the one that's most recent and germane to you, I actually agreed to do things (partly) your way and try out a trial period without one. I could've dropped a cock on the table, as you say, and said, "Nah, we're sticking with the agreement, end of discussion." I also could've completely aceded to your request and abolished the time limit. Instead you got a trial run of no time limit. That is compromise, and that is give and take. It's not what I do in every situation. Sometimes I'll do everything players want and sometimes I'll bulldoze right over their opinions. It all depends on what the issue is

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
2:18 AM (28 minutes ago)
to David
This, however, is a bulldoze case

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
2:19 AM (27 minutes ago)
to David
I'm sorry you don't agree with me, but denying or approving a PC's age, even after play begins, is a GM rather than player call

Calder Rooney
2:19 AM (26 minutes ago)
So, with that said:

Calder Rooney
2:20 AM (26 minutes ago)
Do you want Amelie to have remained in a local foster center that let youth stay on until they turned 20, lived on her own, or something else?

David Armstrong
2:20 AM (25 minutes ago)
It can be a tank case. I'm not budging. Maybe we should ask Sam to come in and help with this GM to GM.

David Armstrong
2:21 AM (25 minutes ago)
Because at this point maybe someone smarter than me can actually verbalize this better, if that's the issue here? Or maybe it's just a case of respect.

Calder Rooney
2:22 AM (24 minutes ago)
Respect is exactly what this is, actually

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
2:40 AM (6 minutes ago)
to David
At this point, you are being disrespectful and not abiding by the social contract that exists between players and GMs--or at least the one that exists within B&B. We aren't bringing in a third party, because Sam has nothing to do with this. It's not his PC he's playing, or his game he's GMing. He's just another player in B&B, like you, Jack, and Pete. And if you think there are times he doesn't lay down the law in his games over vocal player objections, think again. Think very much again.

Ultimately, I don't require your creative agreement to make Amelie 20. I'll change the references in the logs, update her date of birth on her sheet, and have NPCs react to her IC as if she were 20 years old, and I intend to do all of those things. I'm sorry you're not on board with those changes, but this is one area where it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.

What I _do_ require, however, is a hashed-out version of how Amelie spent the intervening two years between turning 18 and coming to New Orleans. You can collaborate with me to decide how she did, or you can leave coming up with that "missing" part of her backstory to me. It's your call. But Amelie is 20.

David Armstrong
2:41 AM (5 minutes ago)
to me
Calder, if this is how you have been treated in past games, I really am sorry. But this is not how I'm going to be treated in a game that's supposed to be an arm in arm deal.

David Armstrong
2:41 AM (4 minutes ago)
I'm going to be speaking with a few people, but you can take this as a tentative self suspension from the game.

David Armstrong
2:42 AM (4 minutes ago)
I'm sorry that it came to this.

Calder Rooney <calderrooney@gmail.com>
2:42 AM (4 minutes ago)
to David
Feel free. I recommend the first person you talk to be Sam, actually

David Armstrong
2:42 AM (4 minutes ago)
I have already been talking to him actually.

David Armstrong
2:42 AM (3 minutes ago)
A bit.

David Armstrong
2:43 AM (3 minutes ago)
to me
I'm going to be offline for awhile now.