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 [10:57] <@Thesaurasaurus> so I reread Masters of Jade the other day
 [10:57] <@Thesaurasaurus> it's informative and interesting
 [10:57] <@Thesaurasaurus> but really does fall into the White Wolf Trap
 [10:57] <@Thesaurasaurus> as Loon has posited
 [10:58] <@Thesaurasaurus> "Here is the story. Here is how it goes. No, you may not touch it."
 [10:58] <@Thesaurasaurus> (there's a huge section devoted to explaining how the Guild has survived in the face of supernatural opposition)
 [10:58] <@Thesaurasaurus> (which ends with a section on how the return of the Solars means that it's fucked)
 [10:59] <@Thesaurasaurus> (not even just that massive social upheaval is imminent)
 [11:00] <@Thesaurasaurus> (step by step it lays out how the Solars are going to show them how it's REALLY done with their Randian grasp of innovation and economics, and tear it apart until they finish it off in its headquarters in Nexus)
 [11:00] <Vinay> I keep expecting a silent-movie card to pop up saying 'It COULD have happened that way..."
 [11:01] <MileDerp> To be fair, how do you see it NOT going that way?  80% of solars by volume hate the Guild
 [11:02] <MileDerp> I mean, altering that course of history would take something exceptional... like a PC.
 [11:02] <@Thesaurasaurus> it just really CLASHES with the rest of the book
 [11:02] <Vinay> In fairness a lot of the standard approaches work pretty well for solars, too.
 [11:02] <@Thesaurasaurus> talking about how the Guild can at least adapt or reorganize
 [11:02] <@Thesaurasaurus> to avoid extinction
 [11:02] <@Thesaurasaurus> the whole section "The Sun Sets on the Guild" just comes out of nowhere
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 [11:05] <MileDerp> Well, the guild basically serves as a corrupt empire.  It was once great and helped secure Creation to the Fae, now it sells out Creation to the same.
 [11:05] <MileDerp> Empire reform is, traditionally, quite rare.
 [11:06] <MileDerp> Unless, you know, a PC handles it.
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 [11:09] <@Thesaurasaurus> oh, it's definitely a net force for evil at this point
 [11:09] <@Thesaurasaurus> it just seems like peak
 [11:09] <@Thesaurasaurus> how do I describe it
 [11:10] <@Thesaurasaurus> think of the bleeding rules
 [11:10] <@Thesaurasaurus> very detailed, gritty rules for how a major injury can result in death even if it doesn't deplete your health bar
 [11:10] <@Thesaurasaurus> followed by a two-sentence blurb of "PCs ignore this"
 [11:10] <MileDerp> Haha
 [11:11] <@Thesaurasaurus> likewise for that paragraph, which really bothers me for what it implies for Solars rather than what it implies for the Guild
 [11:11] <@Thesaurasaurus> the whole book builds up this impression of the Guild as a gigantic, terminal cancer
 [11:11] <@Thesaurasaurus> centralized within Nexus, but with tendrils spread throughout Creation
 [11:12] <@Thesaurasaurus> and then half a page says "but that doesn't matter, the Solars are gonna roll it for change"
 [11:12] <MileDerp> Just like the Realm
 [11:12] <@Thesaurasaurus> not "fear not, Player Characters, these atrocities are meant as things for you to address, not to run from in fear"
 [11:12] <@Thesaurasaurus> just "yeah the Solars are back, all aboard the Singularity train!"
 [11:13] <MileDerp> I see it as "at low level characters can fight the guild as the world-spanning threat du jour, but then you graduate to fighting the realm!"
 [11:16] <TransientPeople> Which is stupid
 [11:16] <TransientPeople> The Guild is legit a much bigger threat than the Realm
 [11:16] <TransientPeople> It's like trying to go against the entire Forbes 500
 [11:16] <@Thesaurasaurus> I would say that the Realm is the bigger threat militarily
 [11:16] <TransientPeople> It doesn't matter if you're King Shiny of Shit Mountain, unless you have an actual statesman-level plan you are going to get your shit kicked in
 [11:17] <@Thesaurasaurus> but the Guild has the capacity to do far more damage to Creation in its death throes
 [11:17] <TransientPeople> Because you will never, ever, EVER get anything done when that much economic might gets thrown against you
 [11:17] <TransientPeople> Not even that Thes
 [11:17] <TransientPeople> It's that at the end of the day
 [11:17] <TransientPeople> The Guild can survive solar bullshit much better
 [11:17] <TransientPeople> because it's decentralized
 [11:17] <TransientPeople> The Realm is prone to suffering bitch deaths if you decapitate the leadership
 [11:18] <TransientPeople> And at the end of the day, if 99.9% of all merchants refuse to sell you anything because they got orders not to do so, you can't build a kingdom
 [11:19] <TransientPeople> You're just one man and you can't one-man-army a literally world-spanning organization without ways to move around fast enough to be effectively anywhere
 [11:19] <TransientPeople> 'I'm taking the Guild down' is pretty much like saying 'I'm slaying Creation' as an Abyssal
 [11:19] <TransientPeople> It's a super long term goal
 [11:22] <MileDerp> Solar presence and performance fixes many of those problems
 [11:22] <MileDerp> Suddenly, you HAVE a giant organization to cover for you.
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 [11:24] <@Thesaurasaurus> anyhow, time for exercise
 [11:24] <TransientPeople> If you're willing to mindhack people, yeah
 [11:24] <@Thesaurasaurus> bbiab
 [11:24] <TransientPeople> But at that point you have other problems besides the Guild