[10:00 AM] Brian: i'm relatively new to zato but the common situations i run into can be broken down into something like this
[10:00 AM] Brian: hit 2s and release s to do nobiru+2s, then if the 2s hits or gets blocked just input drill and you don't have to worry about eddie doing anything since he's in nobiru recovery
[10:01 AM] Brian: anther one is to input 22h for drill, hold h, and immediately tap and release s, which gets you drill+nobiru(edited)
[10:02 AM] Brian: and then another common situation is to fly towards someone as eddie does -h- towards them to nobiru them as you fall on top of them, which is usually done by pressing and holding s+h during whatever your last action was, and then jumping towards them and releasing h, then as you fall release s and do falling j.s slightly after(edited)
[10:04 AM] Brian: when you immediately summon eddie, i usually just summon him with h, don't hold any buttons, and then just tap and release s if i wanna do nobiru as i summon him (since that's a fairly common option), and then it's pretty common to do 2s after eddie does nobiru there, so you just hit 2s when zato's out of recovery from the summon, and since eddie's still doing the nobiru you can just release that s button without worrying about holding it
[10:05 AM] Brian: if you wanna do BTL in neutral, getting out of it's a little complicated since if you release k to get out of btl then eddie will start a -k- attack, so you usually wanna tap and release p or s right before you release k to get out of btl, in order to hide the k release
[10:06 AM] Brian: and then if you wanna do greedy stuff, expecting your opponent won't jump at you, then instead of doing 2s+nobiru or drill+nobiru, then you can do 2s+moguru or drill+moguru as a greedy option(edited)
[10:07 AM] Brian: i think those are most of the common situations you'll run into in neutral, and they're all fairly easy to control since you're not really holding buttons down often if you do it this way(edited)
[10:07 AM] Brian: but i'd be interested to hear if other people do these things in the same way
[10:08 AM] Tomo009: I sorta do but I think my thought process is different
[10:08 AM] Tomo009: I also often hold S so I can quickly react without making zato do anything
[10:08 AM] GMSB|prk`: I often 236H~S~K to hold both mawaru and nobiru
[10:08 AM] Brian: oh, it's also somewhat common to summon eddie and hold S+H and then release them when you need to, but i think the aforementioned method is more common
[10:08 AM] GMSB|prk`: and release H
[10:09 AM] Brian: i prefer not to hold k, just because i think mawaru in neutral isn't that useful, and i like having k available for btl
[10:09 AM] Brian: but i think it has benefits too
[10:09 AM] GMSB|prk`: well you can do something like
[10:09 AM] GMSB|prk`: -S- BTL
[10:09 AM] GMSB|prk`: to enter it relatively safely
[10:10 AM] Brian: yeah that's true
[10:10 AM] GMSB|prk`: iunno tbh, I prefer not to overthink it
[10:10 AM] Brian: honestly i think both have pros and cons and neither are bad so it's whatever
[10:10 AM] Tomo009: yeah I just played a bunch of games forcing myself to use eddie in neutral as much as possible
[10:10 AM] Tomo009: to get myself comfortable with just doing things
[10:10 AM] Tomo009: I'm still in the process though and ocasionally I still find myself without a button held but wanting an eddie move
[10:11 AM] Brian: oh, if you're playing against chars with projectiles, replacing 2s+nobiru with s drill+nobiru might be better in certain situations
[10:12 AM] Brian: recently i've been trying to do fd(with s+h), release h for -h-, input drunkard shade, as a means to deal with stun edge and stuff
[10:13 AM] Brian: it doesn't seem hard once you're used to inputting it, but i never see top players do it so i question if it's actually worth learning
[10:22 AM] JayMan: ok so Ive been trying to do a lot of 2s into 236H, while holding down P and S
[10:24 AM] JayMan: is any action from eddie after a blocked 2s a legit frametrap, or can people jab eddie
[10:25 AM] Brian: i usually just training mode against an eddie dummy, and then if i wanna test blockstrings then i just record the eddie dummy doing the string, and try mashing out of it myself
[10:25 AM] Brian: but basically it matters how much you delay the eddie attack
[10:26 AM] Brian: in theory, i think 2s>summon>immediate -p- is a frametrap? but it leaves you in kinda a bad spot so you don't really do that
[10:27 AM] Brian: normally the mixup is something like 2s>drill as a frametrap that stops them from mashing or doing anything, and then once they respect you do 2s>summon>delay -p- and start up an h drill at the same time
[10:28 AM] Brian: but generally speaking, if you do a blockstring into an eddie summon, it's a greedy summon that they can mash out of and kill eddie for
[10:29 AM] JayMan: so 2s > summon arent real, what about stuff like 2d or 2hs
[10:30 AM] JayMan: i can just test this stuff out out my own, im just fishing for knowledge
[10:30 AM] Brian: if you do 2h or 5h into summon nobiru/mawaru then it's tight, but you have to be super super close range
[10:31 AM] Brian: if you're trying to simplify how it works in your head, think of it this way
[10:32 AM] Brian: whenever you do a drill, it's really scary for your opponent to do anything since if they get knocked down it's really bad, so whenever you're considering doing a drill, also consider summoning and then doing delayed -p-
[10:33 AM] Brian: the exception is if they upback the drill, cause then if you summon then they'll jump away, and if you do drill then they'll block it in the air, but if you see them air block your drill like this, then just puddle summon>nobiru on top of them since they can't mash it out with 2k anymore (which is the normal reason you don't do drill>puddle summon>nobiru all the time)