WildStar UI Addon Q&A: May 8, 2012

*    Aether (webirc@209.203.107.218) has joined #wildstar
<Aether>    Tada!
<@Myrddin>    Hello Troy!
<@Myrddin>    we jsut realized that we are shy!
<@Myrddin>    :D
<dpi209>    Har har
*    UnderdogBPL (webirc@209.203.107.218) has joined #wildstar
<dpi209>    I sense a distinct lack of [CRB] here
<@Myrddin>    Hello UnderdogBPL
<UnderdogBPL>    I'm here
<dpi209>    Who's there?
<@Myrddin>    welcome :D
<UnderdogBPL>    Thanks!
<Aether>    Dips! I see you!
<Aether>    Jon is UnderdogBPL.
*    dpi209 hides behind starspun
<dpi209>    AH!
<Aether>    Starspun! Myrddin! This is like old home week.
<@Myrddin>    haha
<dpi209>    Hello Jon, nice to meet you.
<UnderdogBPL>    I hope everyone enjoyed my thrilling tale of programming in Ruby
<UnderdogBPL>    Hi dpi
<@starspun>    Heeey you guys!
<@Myrddin>    good to have you here!
<Aether>    So ya'll promise to be nice to Jon, right? I have to step away for a quick meeting.
<@Zap-Robo>    Argh! Who let them in!
<dpi209>    UnderdogBPL: Yes :)
<@Zap-Robo>    lo guys :)
<@starspun>    We'll treat him right Aether, don't worry!
*    starspun gives voice to Aether UnderdogBPL
<+Aether>    Also, remember- he is doing this while he is doing other programmery and such.
<@Myrddin>    Sure, we will be nice, I suppose there isn't much that will be worse thanbeing pinched and forced to come here :D
<+UnderdogBPL>    So I posted a quick hello in that thread that Aether started
<@starspun>    I'm about to post a reply there with some questions I really don't expect to be answered :P
<+UnderdogBPL>    Those are my favorite kinds!
<@Zap-Robo>    And I've upgraded your account to tag you as a Carbine peep :)
<+UnderdogBPL>    YES! I have the power!
<+UnderdogBPL>    (Is there any power?)
<@starspun>    Your name turns yellow.
<dpi209>    As long as you don't morph...
<+UnderdogBPL>    Yellow names are pretty powerful
<dpi209>    Mighty Morphin Carbine Rangers!
<@starspun>    Some might even say... gold!
<@Myrddin>    We realized that it is not, yet easy to come up with good questions.
<@Zap-Robo>    (There might be a hidden forum or two)
<@Zap-Robo>    No promises ;)
<dpi209>    Especially when limited to UI addons, not the engine itself
<+UnderdogBPL>    Ok, so I guess I will chat in here with you guys for a bit, and then go back and make a post summarizing anything I discussed here?
<+UnderdogBPL>    Does that sound good?
<@Zap-Robo>    Whatever you like - make yourself at home ;)
<CosmicDebris>    Hello Troy :)
<+UnderdogBPL>    *kicking off shoes* cool. Well, Zap asked if there will be Profiles and the answer is sort of. You can tag certain Addons to only load for certain characters/realms/accounts.
<@starspun>    Hmm, maybe I'll ask the questions I got from friends here instead, then... :P
<CosmicDebris>    I am writting my questions, but i am long :D
<+UnderdogBPL>    so if you have an Addon that deals with PvP (not that I am making any news about PvP) and you only wanted that Addon loaded on PvP servers, you could do that
<dpi209>    *bites his tongue and asks a serious question instead*
<dpi209>    You mentioned you built the UI Addon API on XML - why are you using LUA then?
<+UnderdogBPL>    XML is used for defining forms and other data-ish stuff. Lua is used for logic
<dpi209>    I know I'm quite of leaving the grounds of addons, so feel free to decline that question, but.....
<dpi209>    Most pressing issue for me is, UI scaling is a frequent issue in games. Having to deal with resolutions from your stock 19" to a HDTV - how do you make sure people can actually properly see the UI elements?
<+UnderdogBPL>    We use what is called the "authored resolution" which sets a minimum virtual resolution for the screen
<+UnderdogBPL>    if you shrink the app so that it would be below that, we start scaling
<CosmicDebris>    (Is there a UIparent to refer?)
<+UnderdogBPL>    The biggest challenge with that was with making sure fonts are still readable
<+UnderdogBPL>    but I think we solved it pretty well
<dpi209>    I'm curious to see :)
<+UnderdogBPL>    Cosmic, I don't quite understand that question
<dpi209>    I think he's asking whether there's a parent container UI addons refer to
<CosmicDebris>    UIParent I mean a great frame that can give the global scale and if we ask a frame to anchor it, it depend of its scale, but frames wich have others anchor may be independant
<CosmicDebris>    (sorry it isn't easy for me to explain)
<@Myrddin>    I often switch from windowed mode, my normal playing one to full screen for frapsing. Would I need to use 2 profiles for that or will the window adapt?
<+UnderdogBPL>    Answering Cosmic: hmmm, interesting. Pretty much all the windows (we call them windows, not frames, but essentially the same thing) use the same UI scale. But I think you'll find it works well
<+UnderdogBPL>    We will probably expose the function for getting absolute app size, so if you wanted to create a window at a specific size you could do that
<+UnderdogBPL>    Answernig Myrddin: The window should adapt to that with no problem
<@Myrddin>    ok, thanks
<CosmicDebris>    So strictly absulute and no in %?
<+UnderdogBPL>    All our window positioning uses a combination of % from parent edges (or the whole app if no parent) + an offset
<CosmicDebris>    Ah great :)
<+UnderdogBPL>    so you can basically have both. Strictly % if you want (with 0 offset) or absolute if you want
<dpi209>    Have you decided already what kind of information you'd expose to the UI Addon API?
<+UnderdogBPL>    Yes.
<+UnderdogBPL>    :)
<CosmicDebris>    (<3)
<+UnderdogBPL>    Honestly, the answer is........ pretty much EVERYTHING
<dpi209>    So, chances to get a killer UI addon that you HAVE to use to be competitive are large?
<@Myrddin>    (à la decursive on the early wow)
<+UnderdogBPL>    I'm not sure that's true. Honestly, the way I set this up was with these kinds of issues in mind
<@Zap-Robo>    Right, my working day is done - time to head home :) Have fun UnderdogBPL - don't be a stranger!
<+UnderdogBPL>    We're doing something a little different in terms of API
<+Aether>    :D Thanks for having us Zap.
<@Myrddin>    ah, great to hear
<CosmicDebris>    Thank you Zap :)
*    Zap-Robo has quit (Quit)
<+UnderdogBPL>    By Zap, nice chatting
<@Myrddin>    cu later Zap
<@starspun>    Posted some questions in the forum thread, I see my last one was pretty much intercepted by Myrddin just now
<@Myrddin>    I got your question even more intercepted starspun :D "Think the question above about the profiles, were more situational than a per realm profile. For instance if you planned to do an instance, that you could use profile 1, when you are done you want to do some crafting and need other skills for that and switch to profile 2 for crafting, or pvp (not that there is pvp, just as example)"
<@starspun>    Not THAT question!
<@starspun>    Besides, that's what Zap wanted to know, wasn't it :p
<+UnderdogBPL>    Well, I think you should be able to accommodate those needs without reloading the UI
<CosmicDebris>    thrully yes :p
<@Myrddin>    ok, thanks
<dpi209>    I know this question might be a bit mean, but why is there even a need to have a UI API?
<+UnderdogBPL>    that's it, I'm insulted. See ya!
<+UnderdogBPL>    kidding!
<dpi209>    -.-
<+UnderdogBPL>    I have a wild theory about MMOs and moddable UIs
<@starspun>    Careful, dip, we might have to get the chips out
<+UnderdogBPL>    I think having a modifiable UI is essential to creating a long-term MMO that people want to play, not just for a few months, but for years
<dpi209>    Once I was an MMO gamer, but then I took an arrow to my knee
<@starspun>    I've thought just about the same thing, haha
<CosmicDebris>    And will be possible to bind spells without a visible slot to have a clean UI and in the purpuse to bind all our spells and RP-items/trinkets/vehicle etc..?
<@starspun>    It's my #1 theory that WoW is still going strong
<+UnderdogBPL>    Yeah, I'm pretty passionate about it. I will go on and on if someone doesn't stop me
<+UnderdogBPL>    I agree with you starspun
<dpi209>    Okay, I don't play WoW - could someone explain to me WHY that makes people play WoW?
<@starspun>    Playing any MMO with UI elements that are just flat out annoying and completely unchangeable... ugh
<CosmicDebris>    UI addons: D
<@Myrddin>    I have some friends that love to set up their ui and spend an awful lot of time with it
<+UnderdogBPL>    CosmicDebris: we still need to prevent botting, so our solution to that does mean tying certain kinds of actions to on-screen widgets
<CosmicDebris>    I am one of them and realy, i spent sometimes mote times to work on my UI than play the game
<@starspun>    dip, I think it has something to do with the fact that you can make your UI look exactly the way you want to, so you don't have to be annoyed by certain bits and pieces
<dpi209>    Setting up the UI is great, but why don't companies just build a UI that makes people don't need addons?
<+UnderdogBPL>    Yeah, so the thing is, everyone is different
<@starspun>    People have different things they expect
<CosmicDebris>    (oki :) )
<@starspun>    I guess that's the tl;dr of it, anyway
<@Myrddin>    because you can't make an ui that pleases 10 million players
<@starspun>    Exactly :p One person wants one thing, another wants something else, a third wants something entirely different
<@starspun>    I'm sure you've seen people arguing over the Skyrim UI, even :D
<CosmicDebris>    and we can see that on swtor, it is realy frustrating
<@starspun>    I think it's (mostly) fine, a lot of people go UGH GET THIS THING AWAY FROM ME.
<+UnderdogBPL>    yes, and merely allowing people to turn things on/off, move them around, etc, will be okay for maybe 85% of people, but the remaining 15% want MORE
<dpi209>    You got me on the 15%
<+UnderdogBPL>    but again, I have some wild theories about this
<+UnderdogBPL>    and soon we will see if I am crazy or... slightly less crazy
<@starspun>    Soon... soon!
<+UnderdogBPL>    soon....ish?
<dpi209>    You are per definition crazy, and it's good that way.
<@starspun>    Is that with or without the trademark
<dpi209>    With.
<dpi209>    Game companies NEVER leave out the trademark :p
<@starspun>    dpi209™
*    dpi209 bows respectfully
<dpi209>    Thank you, but I'm no game company
<@starspun>    Too bad, you're now a trademark
<@starspun>    Not registered, but still
<+UnderdogBPL>    how many of you guys have written Addons for a game?
<dpi209>    Never felt the need to.
<@starspun>    Programming is scary. :(
<@Myrddin>    <- :D
<dpi209>    The most I've written is manuals
<CosmicDebris>    I have to leave, thank you realy for this time and your answers. I hope we will have an overview of all this discuss. See you soon all of you :)
<@Myrddin>    but I suck at it, need to find some addon and tweak it to my needs
<@starspun>    I think there was a point where I wanted to try, but learning how to was intimidating :P
<@starspun>    See you, CosmicDebris!
<@Myrddin>    Thaks for joining cosmic
<dpi209>    Bye, CD, see ya
<dpi209>    starspun: Can't be worse than trying to code Ruby on Windoes
<@Myrddin>    one whsipered people for missing buffs, and the other one helped with ressing after a wipe
<dpi209>    *Windows
<+UnderdogBPL>    So, Myrddin, one thing you will love about our API is the ability to create a new Addon based on an existing Carbine Addon, change it, make it your own, and then use it
<@Myrddin>    but I lack the skils to make somehting powerful
<CosmicDebris>    (Oh sorry before leaving: I am bad in programming but I 'm relying for a good initiation with guides^^)
<@starspun>    I might have to try with WildStar... maybe. I really would like a decend mount/vehicle randomizer. :p
<@starspun>    Also a decent one.
<@Myrddin>    that is great, but hard to imagine at the moment. since we do no tknow what kind of addons will come with the game, what kind of helperaddons we'd like to use to improve/make stuff convenient, etc
<@Myrddin>    For my needs sophisticated wow macros are all I need. Playing petty much with the default ui. Will there be macros, or can't you talk about that?
<+UnderdogBPL>    we have macros
<@starspun>    Will they be crazy unlimited like in Rift? (Please no)
<+UnderdogBPL>    I'm not familiar enough with Rift macros
<@starspun>    You just ended up with a build compressed into a 1-3 button mash build if you wanted to be an effective player
<@Myrddin>    I like macros, anything that helps me to keep the amount of buttons on my screen low :D
<@starspun>    You'd just put all your abilities into one macro, arranged by cooldown time, and have at it. A tank with a macro was better than one without, it was... rather sad :\
<dpi209>    That is always the danger with macros
<+Aether>    ZOMG I CANNOT BELIEVE JON SPILLED THE BEANS ABOUT MACROS!
<@starspun>    Hahaha
<+Aether>    THIS INTERVIEW IS OVER!
<+Aether>    Just kidding. :D
<@starspun>    Better go pinch him :D
<+UnderdogBPL>    woops, time to update the resume
<+Aether>    haha
<dpi209>    I can't believe jon spilled the beans about pvp servers either
<@starspun>    Anyway, as far as macro systems go, I prefer WoW's to Rift's :p Really the only two I have any sort of experience with
<+UnderdogBPL>    I only spilled hypothetical beans
<+UnderdogBPL>    hypothetical beans make a very small mess, if any at all
<@starspun>    Beans are pretty gross anyway
<@starspun>    Hypothetical or not, I'm completely okay with spilling them :p
<dpi209>    Why can't we spill cucumbers instead?
<@starspun>    Why, cucumber is delicious
<+Aether>    There were no PvP server beans spilled.
<+UnderdogBPL>    The bean lobby is particularly strong
<@starspun>    Mr. Bean?
<+UnderdogBPL>    I think I've lost control of this chat
<dpi209>    Don't get your pickles in a twist
<+Aether>    hahah
<+Aether>    Yes, when pickles get involved, things have clearly taken a turn.
*    dpi209 hides behind starspun again
<@starspun>    You're such a gentleman, dip :(
<dpi209>    I know, right?
<dpi209>    Just covering your back
<@starspun>    Thanks :(
<@starspun>    UnderdogBPL! What is your favorite UI addon? :p
<+UnderdogBPL>    One of the versions of Gatherer, probably. TBH, it's been a while since I've played WoW
<@starspun>    No time anymore or just sick of it? ;D
<@Myrddin>    "Aether: There were no PvP server beans spilled." thanks for pointing my nose on it, I almost overlooked it! :D
<Aquilus>    What's all this.
<Aquilus>    People talking? Here?
<+UnderdogBPL>    Now, my favorite WildStar Addon would probably be... oh gosh, look at the time
<@Myrddin>    yeah gatherer, is nice
<@starspun>    People were talking here when I poked you, Aquilus
<@starspun>    Jeez, pay attention
<Aquilus>    I was busy levelling! :p
<@starspun>    Pfff
<dpi209>    Achievement unlocked.
<dpi209>    All right, I'll call it a day.
<@Myrddin>    it is kind of nice to see how addonsbuild up on each other, each version a bit more sophisticated than the next
<Aquilus>    Guess I owe you three pokes.
*    @starspun pokes Aquilus three times
<dpi209>    Jon, it was nice of you to stop by and answer a few q's, thanks a lot for that.
<Aquilus>    Fine, six then.
<@Myrddin>    gatherer, then calculate the perfect routes, drawing them on the minimap, onscreen, etc
<dpi209>    Aether, a drive-by pleasure as always :p
*    @starspun pokes Aquilus six times
<Aquilus>    I'm starting to sense a pattern here.
<Aquilus>    Are you bored, perhaps? :p
<@starspun>    Oh, you said you owe ME pokes
<dpi209>    Good night, folks :)
<+UnderdogBPL>    it was fun, I'm sure we'll do it again
<@starspun>    Night dip!
*    dpi209 has quit (Quit)
<@starspun>    Aw, if you're heading out as well Jon, I guess the questions I posted on the forums will go unanswered for now ;) ... which really isn't unexpected since they're a little off-topic. *cough*
<@Myrddin>    Thanks for joining up, hope the next time you won't need to be pinched to come by :-)
<@starspun>    Yes! We appreciate it! :)
<Aquilus>    Oh, that was Jon.
<Aquilus>    I guess that's what I get for not paying attention :p
<+UnderdogBPL>    don't worry, I'll write a post summarizing this chat (minus the pickle tangent) and answer some of the questions in there
<+UnderdogBPL>    Aquilus, hi.
<@starspun>    Awesome. I still don't expect answers to three of my four questions, but awesome. :D
<+UnderdogBPL>    I'll see what I can do. Some of the questions were, er, loaded.
<Aquilus>    Hi, UnderdogBPL.
<Aquilus>    I wouldn't have known what to ask about either way, so it's fine. Kind of forgot about the game :p
<@starspun>    UI addons.
<Aquilus>    This is the one with the bunny girls, right?
<@starspun>    You forgot the bunny boys :<
<Aquilus>    That was deliberate.
<@starspun>    Tsssh
*    Zap-Robo (zaphod@Zap-Robo.user.globalgamers.net) has joined #wildstar
*    ChanServ gives channel operator status to Zap-Robo
<@Myrddin>    Pretty sure we will hear much more of Wildstar the coming months
<Aquilus>    But yeah, UI addons is an interesting topic.
<@Zap-Robo>    And now, comfy at home
<@starspun>    Shame you're late
<@Myrddin>    welcome home
<Aquilus>    It's a fine balance, allowing for custom elements without allowing for what is effectively cheating.
<@Zap-Robo>    I'm not late - I'm exactly on time (for me!)
<Aquilus>    You're late for us, though.
<Aquilus>    Well, not for me. I'm always here =/
<+UnderdogBPL>    It IS a fine balance, and one I hope we are able to achieve. We have a plan, and I think it's a good one.
<@Zap-Robo>    Kill them all, and let the gaming gods decide?
<+UnderdogBPL>    I'm not going to make any grandiose statements and suggest that we will be perfect, but we are committed to getting it right
<@starspun>    There are no gaming gods, only game masters
<Aquilus>    How would you prevent something like Gatherer from WoW, if you're familiar with that?
<Aquilus>    If that's even a concern, I guess.
<+UnderdogBPL>    I am familiar with Gatherer; it's one of my favorites
<@starspun>    Haha, I guess you didn't see the part where Gatherer is (one of) his favorites :D
<Aquilus>    Ah. Hehe.
<@Myrddin>    hehe
*    [1]RedLynk is now known as RedLynk
<@RedLynk>    Yo yo yo
<Aquilus>    I used it myself, still felt like cheating.
*    @starspun pinches RedLynk's cheeks
<@RedLynk>    MY CHEEKS
<@RedLynk>    VIOLATED
<Aquilus>    Oh, pipe down.
<@starspun>    If Gatherer felt like cheating, I wonder how you'd have felt about using Recursive back in the Molten Core days
<Aquilus>    I used that.
<+UnderdogBPL>    So, the "problem" with Gatherer is not at the UI Addon level, but in the fact that resource nodes are consistent
<@starspun>    It was different back then :p
<+UnderdogBPL>    it's not a question of API at all
<Aquilus>    I suppose that's right.
<Aquilus>    I have no idea how Recursive even worked. I just vaguely remember it as some sort of magic button that fixed everything.
<+UnderdogBPL>    So, I'll just say that if Design wants those kinds of things to be hidden, then it's their job to hide them. *ducks*
<@Myrddin>    I am kind of torn, I don't like bots, but I also like bots ... for example in Asheron's call there were portal bots, basically characters that stood there and made portals if you traded them items/money ... loved those, think they are a great idea. But at the same time I hate bots that let you walk around and fight/xp for you.
<Aquilus>    I assume the Explorable stuff is going to be at set places, so I guess people would make map mods for those.
<Aquilus>    But then again, you could just get that from a third party site if you wanted to, so I guess it's not a particularly important concern.
<@starspun>    Aquilus, originally you just had Recursive running and it would decurse and stuff for you without having to even press anything
<Aquilus>    I recall having to mash a button.
<@starspun>    Yeah, Blizzard changed how it worked because it was ridiculous to have it the way it was
<Aquilus>    For the first boss of molten core, I forget his name.
<+UnderdogBPL>    We have ways to prevent that, but it's an arms race you know?
<@Myrddin>    Lucifron
<Aquilus>    Guess I have to check up on Wildstar, see if I missed any fun reveals.
<Aquilus>    Yes.
<@Myrddin>    and the addon was Decursive (from de-cursing) :D
<Aquilus>    See, that makes more sense.
<@starspun>    Yeah I guess that might've been it :p
<@starspun>    It's a long time ago, shhh
<Aquilus>    Though I suppose it was more of a recursive decursing.
<Aquilus>    :p
<+UnderdogBPL>    The basic Decursive design (from what I remember) would not work in our API
<@starspun>    No automatic "use X if Y is applied"? Excellent
<+UnderdogBPL>    Absolutely not
<@Myrddin>    do you protect windows in combat? so that they can't jsut display "clickable" windows over each other n certain events?
<Aquilus>    Did they reveal the races of the other faction yet?
<@Myrddin>    for example "boss loses armor debuff" and a button to re-apply that debuf would be displayed
<+UnderdogBPL>    Myrddin, yeah. Certain types of windows (and their parents, grandparents, etc) will become locked during combat
<@Myrddin>    great, thanks
<@starspun>    Not other than humans, Aquilus :p
<Aquilus>    Alright.
<Aquilus>    Anything about server tech?
<@Zap-Robo>    There have been race reveals, just not (necessarily) for another faction
<Aquilus>    I don't want to see old-school server selection in an MMO ever again.
<@starspun>    Your face is an old-school server selection
<@starspun>    Deal with THAT
<@Myrddin>    its only about UI Aquilus!
<Aquilus>    Thank you for your thoughtful comment, starspun.
<@starspun>    I know you love them so
<@starspun>    Almost as much as I love sleep, which I should get to
<Aquilus>    I do.
<Aquilus>    You? sleep?
<Aquilus>    At a reasonable time of day?
<Aquilus>    I don't believe it.
<@starspun>    I guess you haven't noticed I've been doing that for... two weeks now?
<@starspun>    :p
<Aquilus>    Nope.
<Aquilus>    Guess I'm not that great at stalking =/
<@starspun>    This is a good thing
<@Zap-Robo>    I'm glad I've finished with my last night shift - although I'm going to be back in the UK next week...
<@Zap-Robo>    Anyone ask what the most innovative/favourite new UI feature is? :)
<@Zap-Robo>    (To be ontopic for a second!)
<@starspun>    I really have no questions and I'll blame it on being dead tired... like I always do :D Good night, and thanks for your time, UnderdogBPL!
<+UnderdogBPL>    Hmmm, I'm not sure if I can answer that
<Aquilus>    Is there an "awesome button"?
<@Zap-Robo>    Ah, fair enough :)
<Aquilus>    That sounds like a UI feature.
<@Myrddin>    Tell us and we can help you decide!
<+UnderdogBPL>    I should make an "AwesomeButton" Addon
<@Zap-Robo>    Feel free to be vague, if it helps!
<+UnderdogBPL>    put it in the game
<Aquilus>    14.99 DLC?
<+UnderdogBPL>    Or maybe a "Beans" addon with a single button labeled "Spill"
<+UnderdogBPL>    Well, I've avoided actual programming for long enough. Thanks guys for hosting me. I'll get a post up soon in that other thread answering some questions and summarizing this chat
<@starspun>    That needs to be a mini-game
<Aquilus>    What sort of coding do you allow for when making custom GUIs?
<@starspun>    Spill the Beans
<Aquilus>    Alright. Always great to see devs being active in the community. Builds confidence ;)
<+UnderdogBPL>    It's all Lua Aq
<Aquilus>    Ooh, fun.
<Aquilus>    I know that, so it suits me alright.
<@Zap-Robo>    Pleasure to have you here UnderdogBPL! Feel free to stop by again (in official or unofficial capacity!)
<Aquilus>    Even though the scoping is weird :p
<+UnderdogBPL>    ok, thanks everyone!
<@Zap-Robo>    (And you Aether - we see you lurking and keeping tabs!)
<@Myrddin>    Thanks for joining us
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